In defense of Brad

Yesterday on Sirius XM's Termine and Johnson NBA show I listened to one of my favorite coaches, Larry Brown, defend Brad Stevens to the max. He said Brad is a terrific coach, brilliant, who possesses two of the most important qualities needed - he can develop players so they become better at their game and most importantly, he first and foremost cares about players as human beings, apart from their roles on the team. I respect Coach Brown's opinion much more than my own on these matters. Ainge probably feels the same way. Verdict: Brad stays and the Celts go on to have a great year next season, after Danny gets a play-making PG and another helpful player.

worcester wrote:Yesterday on Sirius XM's Termine and Johnson NBA show I listened to one of my favorite coaches, Larry Brown, defend Brad Stevens to the max. He said Brad is a terrific coach, brilliant, who possesses two of the most important qualities needed - he can develop players so they become better at their game and most importantly, he first and foremost cares about players as human beings, apart from their roles on the team. I respect Coach Brown's opinion much more than my own on these matters. Ainge probably feels the same way. Verdict: Brad stays and the Celts go on to have a great year next season, after Danny gets a play-making PG and another helpful player.

worcester,

I've been listening to some talk shows too and they are all 100% in agreement that Brad isn't going anywhere, including to Indiana (now watch him leave, right?).  

Larry Brown was a great coach who coached 9 different NBA teams and 2 ABA teams.  He also took his 2003-2004 Detroit Pistons to an NBA Championship over the seriously loaded LA Lakers with Kobe, Shaq, Karl Malone, Gary Payton, Horace Grant and Rick Fox.  So, he saw a ton of players come through his system in many different cities and, most importantly, he figured out how to lead one of his teams to the Championship against an opponent that was superior, at least on paper.  Good thing for him and his players they have to play the games anyway.

It is clear to me there's something wrong with our team and it is also pretty clear to me that I am not sure what it is.  I can point to ME-balling, but who do I blame for that?  I can point to our lack of a consistent bench, but who do I blame for that?  Well, I think the correct answer to those questions is "everybody".  It's a team sport, everybody is responsible.  In a cross-sport comparison, if you had an NFL team that was great in every way except the left side of their offensive line stunk then you better have a quarterback who is very good at rolling right or things will get ugly.  Is it those players' faults?  Yes.  Is it the GM's fault for not getting better LG and LT?  Yes.  Is it the coaches' fault for not coming up with offensive schemes that reduce that weakness?  Yes.  Is it the rest of their teammate's fault for not making their cuts faster and sharper so they can create space between themselves and the defense, in both passing and running plays, so that the onrushing right side defensive lineman over run the play and/or the linebackers can't plug the hole in time or keep up with their receiver assignments?  Yes.


Bob


.

True dat, Bob. And the fish smells from the head. And the head is not Danny but Wyc who probably has restrained Danny's spending this year. Hope we can get a player before next season starts.

Danny has basically been operating in the team-development space that seems forbidden by all the pundits - trying to build for the future and win now. Other than Brad's first year after Pierce and Garnett were traded, the Celtics have fielded a competitive team. In spite of that, Danny has had the picks of a cellar-dwellar, and thus he has been able to straddle the line. For all the hoo-ha about Danny swindling the Nets, currently they are closer to a championship than we are. They took a different approach - they sucked, accumulated cap room, and signed 3 of the best players in the league. The Lakers took a similar approach - mortgaging the future for LeBron and Davis. Danny could have gone that route, but didn't because he felt he could do both. I would note that anytime Danny had a chance to turn his young talent into a player like Kawhii, Harden, Butler, or mortgage everything for Davis, most fans were against it. We all thought we had it all - winning veterans and emerging talent. But over time, the winning veterans necessary to go deep have seeped out as Kyrie, Al, and Gordon have left. The Js are just too young to lead a championship team right now. Adding a very good vet or two who can also lead would be huge, even if the two Js remain as the two most talented player. Even then, I'm not sure we are a contender. Seriously hope I'm wrong...

Chris Grenham @chrisgrenham
about 16 minutes ago
Brad Stevens says the interest from IU means a lot and that IU is special to him, but: “I’m not a kid anymore. I’m a 44-year-old Masshole. I swerve around others when I’m driving, I eat Dunkin Donuts and I root for the Patriots.”


Bob


.

I appreciate loyalty.

Larry Brown was a terrific coach. Part of his persona was his ability and likelyhood to discipline his players.

Yes, he would sit those who did not listen.

HOW THIS WILL ALL PLAY OUT - FOLLOW THE BOUNCING PING PONG BALL OF BLAME

The ping pong ball of blame has been bouncing back a forth this year between Danny and Brad, and where and when it will stop at this date in time, nobody knows.

A fair argument can be made by either side this year - Danny did not equip the team with the right off season moves to bolster the starting line up nor bench. And it can be argued that Brad is not using the two J's the right way, nor has he developed a creative offense and defense. Just look at the statistics.

Ok, we have what is called a Mexican standoff this year, and the Ping Pong Ball of blame will just have to bounce into next year to be continued. Management/ownership can play this PR rouge with the fans and buy one more year of loyalty to see if the ship can be righted, and if not heads will roll.

Hopefully it will not if the right moves and a little PR are thrown in are made by both sides.

Both Brad and Danny can take blame at the end of the season with the story that Danny will do his job in the off season and get Brad the horses through trades and free agent signings. If Danny cannot achieve the desired results we all know has to be made, the ball remains in Danny's court. If Danny can, the ball is now in Brad's court.

If Danny achieves his mission, Brad will tout Danny's accomplishments via trades and free agent signings and now pronounce that he now has the creative offense and defensive weapons to build a winning team to compete for banner #18. However, the ball remains in Brad's court.

I believe next year could be a make or brake year for either Brad or Danny or possibly both if the Celtics do not have a good showing in the playoffs next season.

112288

Do not forget that THIS team is the one that went to the ECF last year.

Let me just point out the differences by one key note: I will NOT count Gordon Hayward AT ALL. He played effectively 1 single game in the playoffs 2020 vs Philly and then got injured and even when he was rushed to come back because we were losing the ECF I will not count him as he was not playing for the team to reach the ECF

ROSTER IN THE PLAYOFFS 2020 vs RIGHT NOW:

2020 no longer in 2021:
Brad Wannamaker
Enes Kanter
Romeo Langford

2021 that were not there 2020
Jeff Teague
Tristan Thompson
Payton Pritchard
Aaron Nesmith

Is it fair to point out that the following replacement led a team on the verge of going to the Finals last year to be a bottom feeder this year?
Kanter replaced by Thompson
Wannamaker replaced by Teague/Pritchard
Langford replaced by Nesmith

I believe I have made my case - something is very wrong in the Celtics locker room.

Lastly purely on conjecture I will point out other differences to last year that are more motivational/phycological in nature:
NOTE: I have no idea if those factors have ANY influence on the team whatsoever
- JT got paid
- JB got his All Star nod
- Wyc is on record saying he does not believe this team can win it this year
- Danny was shopping Kemba like crazy before the season (of course the payers would know that or find that out eventually)
- Players are not looking as focused and are not executing what Brad Stevens wants them to do (started tuning out the coach)? (this one I cannot even conclusively find proof of on tape to be honest)

SUMMARY:
This team is NOT much different than the one that went to the ECF last year. The turnaround is DRASTIC and therefore the blame can be spread all around as there is enough of it for everybody. The level of Talent is CLEARLY the same/almost the same from the team that PLAYED in the playoffs last year (otherwise there is obviously the big gap left by Gordon Hayward).
Historically when similar break downs, not related to talent has happened in the past the first to bear the brunt of the blame and consequences has been the coach. I am not saying "fire Brad" is the answer here, just what we might expect historically to break away first.
I had the hope that the team would find a catalyst for change either by a small/or any trade/addition or some other event triggered by Brad/Danny/the players themselves. I am not so sure anymore, I do not see them being upset at their losing. I saw some flashes of that in JB earlier, before he made All-Star, but now... I am afraid where this team is going frankly.

Nice to see Brad get some backing from outside the organization.

The fact that Indiana would like to have him coach there has to be awfully tempting. If you are a highly accomplished basketball coach, among the best in the business, a chance to coach one of the iconic traditional college powerhouses has to be incredibly tempting. It's the pinnacle of coaching, with complete control over the entire operation. Nothing comes close, which is why so many top college coaches turn down NBA teams.

Brad's dedication to coaching in Boston means something. I think the speculation of him losing the team or not having a commanding presence is a lot of garbage. He's probably the right coach, the problem is coming up with the right roster. My son pointed something out recently; the roster was actually stronger a couple of years ago. Yes there were other issues, but in terms of pure talent, if you add Irving, Horford, Hayward and Rozier back on top of Tatum, Brown and Smart, you would have a killer team. That's simply a what if discussion, but that's not Brad's doing or under his (or anyone's) control.

I believe there is a limit to patience from ownership on down in any pro sports franchise. I do think they'll take a look at what the current roster does this season before making changes, big or small, this off-season. If the next season doesn't produce, with whatever changes come about, Ainge and Stevens could both be on the hot-seat. That's not condemning either one, or going back on what I said a paragraph or so ago, but the fact that the old sports adage is true; it's easier to fire the coach than the team.

Vankisa wrote:Do not forget that THIS team is the one that went to the ECF last year.

Let me just point out the differences by one key note: I will NOT count Gordon Hayward AT ALL. He played effectively 1 single game in the playoffs 2020 vs Philly and then got injured and even when he was rushed to come back because we were losing the ECF I will not count him as he was not playing for the team to reach the ECF

ROSTER IN THE PLAYOFFS 2020 vs RIGHT NOW:

2020 no longer in 2021:
Brad Wannamaker
Enes Kanter
Romeo Langford

2021 that were not there 2020
Jeff Teague
Tristan Thompson
Payton Pritchard
Aaron Nesmith

Is it fair to point out that the following replacement led a team on the verge of going to the Finals last year to be a bottom feeder this year?
Kanter replaced by Thompson
Wannamaker replaced by Teague/Pritchard
Langford replaced by Nesmith

I believe I have made my case - something is very wrong in the Celtics locker room.

Lastly purely on conjecture I will point out other differences to last year that are more motivational/phycological in nature:
NOTE: I have no idea if those factors have ANY influence on the team whatsoever
- JT got paid
- JB got his All Star nod
- Wyc is on record saying he does not believe this team can win it this year
- Danny was shopping Kemba like crazy before the season (of course the payers would know that or find that out eventually)
- Players are not looking as focused and are not executing what Brad Stevens wants them to do (started tuning out the coach)? (this one I cannot even conclusively find proof of on tape to be honest)

SUMMARY:
This team is NOT much different than the one that went to the ECF last year. The turnaround is DRASTIC and therefore the blame can be spread all around as there is enough of it for everybody. The level of Talent is CLEARLY the same/almost the same from the team that PLAYED in the playoffs last year (otherwise there is obviously the big gap left by Gordon Hayward).
Historically when similar break downs, not related to talent has happened in the past the first to bear the brunt of the blame and consequences has been the coach. I am not saying "fire Brad" is the answer here, just what we might expect historically to break away first.
I had the hope that the team would find a catalyst for change either by a small/or any trade/addition or some other event triggered by Brad/Danny/the players themselves. I am not so sure anymore, I do not see them being upset at their losing. I saw some  flashes of that in JB earlier, before he made All-Star, but now... I am afraid where this team is going frankly.

Yes we did get to ECF’s last year, but we played a 76ers team without Simmons, we struggled with Toronto in an exhausting 7 game series and got beaten down the stretch in every game vs Heat. Stevens really got exposed and outcoached the last 2 series IMHO and the 4th quarter inefficiency has continued this year.

cowens/oldschool wrote:

Vankisa wrote:Do not forget that THIS team is the one that went to the ECF last year.

Let me just point out the differences by one key note: I will NOT count Gordon Hayward AT ALL. He played effectively 1 single game in the playoffs 2020 vs Philly and then got injured and even when he was rushed to come back because we were losing the ECF I will not count him as he was not playing for the team to reach the ECF

ROSTER IN THE PLAYOFFS 2020 vs RIGHT NOW:

2020 no longer in 2021:
Brad Wannamaker
Enes Kanter
Romeo Langford

2021 that were not there 2020
Jeff Teague
Tristan Thompson
Payton Pritchard
Aaron Nesmith

Is it fair to point out that the following replacement led a team on the verge of going to the Finals last year to be a bottom feeder this year?
Kanter replaced by Thompson
Wannamaker replaced by Teague/Pritchard
Langford replaced by Nesmith

I believe I have made my case - something is very wrong in the Celtics locker room.

Lastly purely on conjecture I will point out other differences to last year that are more motivational/phycological in nature:
NOTE: I have no idea if those factors have ANY influence on the team whatsoever
- JT got paid
- JB got his All Star nod
- Wyc is on record saying he does not believe this team can win it this year
- Danny was shopping Kemba like crazy before the season (of course the payers would know that or find that out eventually)
- Players are not looking as focused and are not executing what Brad Stevens wants them to do (started tuning out the coach)? (this one I cannot even conclusively find proof of on tape to be honest)

SUMMARY:
This team is NOT much different than the one that went to the ECF last year. The turnaround is DRASTIC and therefore the blame can be spread all around as there is enough of it for everybody. The level of Talent is CLEARLY the same/almost the same from the team that PLAYED in the playoffs last year (otherwise there is obviously the big gap left by Gordon Hayward).
Historically when similar break downs, not related to talent has happened in the past the first to bear the brunt of the blame and consequences has been the coach. I am not saying "fire Brad" is the answer here, just what we might expect historically to break away first.
I had the hope that the team would find a catalyst for change either by a small/or any trade/addition or some other event triggered by Brad/Danny/the players themselves. I am not so sure anymore, I do not see them being upset at their losing. I saw some  flashes of that in JB earlier, before he made All-Star, but now... I am afraid where this team is going frankly.

Yes we did get to ECF’s last year, but we played a 76ers team without Simmons, we struggled with Toronto in an exhausting 7 game series and got beaten down the stretch in every game vs Heat. Stevens really got exposed and outcoached the last 2 series IMHO and the 4th quarter inefficiency has continued this year.

I agree with your points on outcoaching in particular, although I am not sure if it was not partly because he lost the trust of the team after the "it was smart to play zone". However my main point was:
We have the same coach, same organizational structure. The difference between the team that made the ECF and the one now is: The 3 BENCH players I have mentioned. This cannot explain how much worse the team is now. Do you believe the current team would even win against Philly in round 1?

So main question is what gives? Talent did not change that much from the Gordon-less team that made it to the ECF. But the current team plays like a Minnesota Timberwolves. Something deeper is wrong here.

NYCelt wrote:Nice to see Brad get some backing from outside the organization.

The fact that Indiana would like to have him coach there has to be awfully tempting. If you are a highly accomplished basketball coach, among the best in the business, a chance to coach one of the iconic traditional college powerhouses has to be incredibly tempting. It's the pinnacle of coaching, with complete control over the entire operation. Nothing comes close, which is why so many top college coaches turn down NBA teams.

Brad's dedication to coaching in Boston means something. I think the speculation of him losing the team or not having a commanding presence is a lot of garbage. He's probably the right coach, the problem is coming up with the right roster. My son pointed something out recently; the roster was actually stronger a couple of years ago. Yes there were other issues, but in terms of pure talent, if you add Irving, Horford, Hayward and Rozier back on top of Tatum, Brown and Smart, you would have a killer team. That's simply a what if discussion, but that's not Brad's doing or under his (or anyone's) control.

I believe there is a limit to patience from ownership on down in any pro sports franchise. I do think they'll take a look at what the current roster does this season before making changes, big or small, this off-season. If the next season doesn't produce, with whatever changes come about, Ainge and Stevens could both be on the hot-seat. That's not condemning either one, or going back on what I said a paragraph or so ago, but the fact that the old sports adage is true; it's easier to fire the coach than the team.

Yeah, no question that we had more talent 3 years ago. But I do not believe talent is the issue right now for the Celtics. We were worried if the team could reach the finals with the support cast it had this year even before the season began. But it turned as ugly as "are we going to be a lottery team" by mid season already. This is disproportionally bad performance compared to "pure talent" is it not? As I pointed out this exact core reached the ECF last payoffs. And it is heading to lottery territory this year.

I do not believe Brad is a bad coach (no longer believe he is a great one either, but he is still young), but I feel his time is running out and he needs to change or get some help to better motivate his players. I respectfully disagree with you that he does not lack commanding presence as I think he does. But I am not sure his lack of such is anything new and perhaps is not what lies at the core of the team lack of motivation this season. And there is clearly lack of motivation in my opinion. The most telling for me is the complete lack of effort in great stretches (probably entire games by now) by the team on defense. I do not remember such lack of effort and atrocious defense from ANY of Brad Steven's teams regardless if they were star studded or the best "star" in them was called Jamal Crawford.
So while I disagree that the problem is "just" finding the right roster anymore (might have been that at the start of the season, but we are way past that now) I have started to also believe it is not Brad that is at the core of the lackluster performances by pretty much all core Celtics players.

Something is afoot here that we do not/cannot easily see within the Celtics organization in my opinion.

And talking about limits to ownership patience - could we have reached those already? Could this be why there are no moves done this year?

I have seen this happen so many times before.

Brad Stevens is in fact a good coach.  At times we may not like his quirky rotations and other game related decision but that is true about every single coach.

My main concern is the disconnect between him and his players.  

I believe strongly in discipline.  Some coaches go overboard and are more draconian.  Those coaches lose their teams sooner or later.

We should want none of that.  

What bothers me most of all is the lack of accountability of the players to do their jobs and do them well and Brad's inability to  make his players accountable to do their jobs and do them well.

This situation did not just happen.  It has been building for a while.  Bad habits of players are not addressed and that is why they just keep happening and getting worse.  

At this point these players cannot seem to muster enough mental energy to play the right way.  

This team is not going to run through a brick wall for Brad because he has not asked them to do so.  But that is what is needed.  This team needs to run through brick wall after brick wall to get to victory.  I am speaking figuratively.  I'm talking about the mental toughness that is lacking.  I'm taking about the mental toughness that allows a player to play with discipline through the inevitable tough patches.

A coach cannot leave a team to their own devices.  Like a good parent they must step in early and often and curb bad behavior before it is too late.

I think Brad has in fact left this team to their own devices and he has permitted bad habits to impact the performance of his players and his team.

Yes, he has most definitely lost this team.  The only question in my mind is if he can find his team again.

I disagree, but will not get into a give and go on this. Brad is the coach, period. He is going no where, period. He will find a way to turn this around, my opinion. This is a different world we are living in today. Red screaming at these guys would have gotten him no where today. I believe that.

Just my opinion

RosalieTCeltics wrote:I disagree, but will not get into a give and go on this.  Brad is the coach, period.  He is going no where, period.  He will find a way to turn this around, my opinion.  This is a different world we are living in today.  Red screaming at these guys would have gotten him no where today. I believe that.  

Just my opinion

Rosalie,

Well, that was concise. I appreciated that. Good job, Rosalie.


Bob


.

RosalieTCeltics wrote:I disagree, but will not get into a give and go on this.  Brad is the coach, period.  He is going no where, period.  He will find a way to turn this around, my opinion.  This is a different world we are living in today.  Red screaming at these guys would have gotten him no where today. I believe that.  

Just my opinion

I agree completely.

I also have to say, Rosalie, that you are a consistent voice of reason around here.