POST GAME NY KNICKS - AWAY

Celtics Wrap: R.J. Barrett, Knicks Come Back At Buzzer
Ex-Celtic Evan Fournier had a career-high 41 points


NESN by Alexandra Francisco

The Celtics are battle testing themselves this season.

They entered a two-game stretch with the Knicks having identical records, but thanks to a comeback win at Madison Square Garden, the New York gets the slight edge.

The Celtics fall down to 18-21 with the loss, whiile the Knicks improve to 19-20.

ONE BIG TAKEAWAY
Ex-Celtic Evan Fournier unconsciously shot the Knicks back into the game in the fourth quarter, torching his team for a new career high 41 points. But no one anticipated the absolute dagger from R.J. Barrett, who hit the buzzer beater to stun Boston.

Jayson Tatum had a great game, but unfortunately had no help in the second half. But beyond players, we might have arrived at a place where Ime Udoka’s late game strategy is the only thing left to talk about for these fourth-quarter collapses.

PLAYERS OF THE GAME
— Jayson Tatum was the Celtics’ best player Thursday, finishing with a team-high 36 points. While taking on the team’s main scoring abilities he also was the primary playmaker, finishing with 23 points, six rebounds, nine assists, two steals and a block.

— Robert Williams has another huge game defensively. He was everywhere.


Williams finished with six points, nine rebounds, an assist, two steals and seven (!!) blocks.

— Honestly this game felt personal for Evan Fournier, for whatever reason. He was on fire in the fourth and finished with a career-high 41 points, eight rebounds, two assists and a steal.

WAGER WATCH
Marcus Smart had a gritty game, and that extended to those who wagered on his point totals. The guard was -105 to score at least 11 points, which he surpassed in the fourth quarter with a 25-footer. A $105 bet on the over would have seen a nice $100 return.


UP NEXT
This road trip was quick, and the Knicks will follow the Celtics back to Boston for a rematch Saturday at TD Garden. Tip off with New York is at 7:30 p.m. ET.

112288

WTF

112288

If coach can't figure out something on Fournier after 3 games of getting torched by him I may pull my hair out. Next game in Boston, I wonder what the over under for him would be?

I was worrying when we were hitting all those shots early, I thought it might be a bad omen. If we had shooters on the court Tatum would have had 15 assists.

I don't think I have seen one time with Tatum and Brown running a two man game. It could actually work. What we are doing isn't working. Although Brown was invisible after the first quarter.

Udoka needed to challenge the call on the ball that clearly went off Robinson's knee. I'm not sure the constant switching fits our personnel, especially when Freedom is in the game.Let's see how much intestinal fortitude these guys show in Saturday's rematch.

Udoka needs to bench some players! You do not give up a lead like that and loose!

112288

Watching this game and thinking back on other recent meltdowns I've noticed Jaylen's body language after he starts great and then turns cold. Does he not want to be here? Does he dislike playing second fiddle? Does he dislike Ime? I have no idea but he looks unhappy or disengaged or something.

He's an amazing player, who still can't complete an ally oop to RWill (or rarely does, most attempts missed the huge target Rob offers), struggles to pass when it matters most, turns the ball over when it matters most. Passing and reducing turnovers can be improved with practice but it must be something you want to do.

Smart, OMG 2 of 10 from three, most of them 4th quarter. Sheesh.

Brad has his work cut out for him, but I think he can accomplish it. Go C's.

This has surely become a comedy show!

Once again I have to replace our worst game with another game that is worst.

We came out blazing and fizzled like a fire devoid of oxygen.

I have a pregame ritual where I call or get a call from my friend in Boston.  We always prognosticate about the game and will also chat briefly during the game as it progresses.  When Boston went up by something like 24 points, we both knew that trouble was up the road.

Here are a few observations from this game.

Grant Williams has returned to that guy that he was before we thought he had gotten better.  At least 3-4 fly by closeouts and zip for 3 from deep  (1-12 in last 5 games.

Schroeder can score sometimes but he is the ultimate trick or treat player and his defense SUCKS!

Al Horford is burnt toast.  He is 2-20 from deep over a 5 game spread and his rebounding numbers continue to trend down.  

Jaylen Brown started out strong but lost his way.  He shot okay overall, 6-14 but was really not involved that much in the offense in the 2nd half.  He also had 7 rebounds and 3 turnovers (at least 2 when he tried to pass the ball while being airborne)

Marcus Smart will never change.  He actually shot well from deep going 4-10.  I knew after he made 2 straight 3 pointers we would be in for a barrage of 3 point shots from him.  He went 4-12 overall which is not very efficient.

Jrich only logged 16 minutes and he made 2/3 from deep but was pretty irrelevant (2-7, 2 rebounds and no assists)

Robert Williams came to play.  He had 9 rebounds  including 6 on the offensive glass plus 7 block shots and several intimidations.  He went 3-3 from the field.

Now for the coach

I refuse to walk on eggs shells because someone thinks I might be nitpicking.  Coaches can win with less than perfect coaching.  I get that but when you start piling up bad decision after bad decision winnable games are lost.  

At what point will Ime come to the conclusion that his preferred 2-big lineup is not going to work?

When will Ime understand that playing Marcus and Schroeder together is like playing Russian Roulette.  Sooner or later somebody is going to get shot in the F......head.  

When will Ime realize that running a 2 man game with Tatum and Smart while burying Jaylen deep in the corner ain't good offense?

When will Ime look at the stat sheet and have another 2 week late revelation that Robert Williams has to get more than 3 shots?

How is it even possible that Ime can not come up with a defense to contain Evan Fournier?  How is that possible that you can sit and watch your team get destroyed in 3 straight games?

When the game is on the line how do you allow your team to shoot 3 pointers and miss that many?

Message to coach.  You need to change your lineups and you need to figure out which side of the bread gets the butter.

My last remembrance of the game.  My friend called and my stream is 45 seconds slower than his.  He asked, "Did you see the shot"?  I said it looks like another OT game.  He said wait for it, wait for it, wait for it.

Shortly after I said, WTF

bygone wrote:Watching this game and thinking back on other recent meltdowns I've noticed Jaylen's body language after he starts great and then turns cold. Does he not want to be here? Does he dislike playing second fiddle? Does he dislike Ime? I have no idea but he looks unhappy or disengaged or something.

He's an amazing player, who still can't complete an ally oop to RWill (or rarely does, most attempts missed the huge target Rob offers), struggles to pass when it matters most, turns the ball over when it matters most. Passing and reducing turnovers can be improved with practice but it must be something you want to do.

Smart, OMG 2 of 10 from three, most of them 4th quarter. Sheesh.

Brad has his work cut out for him, but I think he can accomplish it. Go C's.

Interesting thoughts on Brown. My guess is he, and others, are getting frustrated with their own inconsistent performance. If so, this is where we get to see how mentally tough this group is. Although the roster looks far from championship caliber to me, I think there is enough talent to at least take that 7th or 8th playoff spot. Brown and others are going to need to adapt their game if so, and along with Udoka find out what this third quarter issue is. Except for Horford, the starting 5 look fairly strong. Schroder, and to a lesser degree Richardson, look OK off the bench. I also have thought I spotted Brown's disengaged appearance at times. It looks more evident to me when we go deeper into the rotation.

Early in the game last night one of the TNT commentators, maybe SVG, noted that the Cs finally had their "core" all available. He didn't specify and I'm no mind reader but I'm guessing he meant our starters (2Js, Al, Rob, and Marcus) and maybe our two most obvious (salary) bench players in Schroder and JRich. And we lost. Going forward what does this mean? Maybe a play in slot? And what about next year? Schroder will be gone and Al, if still here, will be another year older. I don't know if Al's current slump is just a slump or if half a season and his age is catching up to him. Either way it's hard to see him as a major piece going forward. So that leaves us with a core of three wings, a bulldog 1/2 guard, and a jumping jack center. That's 2 all stars, a perennial candidate for DPY, a future all star center, and a solid bench wing. Not bad. But that core lacks a consistent sniper, a pass first point/floor general, and a beefy BU 4/5. We might have a solution or two down the bench but it seems we won't know until a couple of those "core" guys are sent down the bench a bit or traded and we put more young guys in the rotation. This year we are going to be lucky to play into the playoffs as currently configured and it doesn't seem that Stevens can do enough before the trade deadline to fix that.

NYCelt,

I'm not sure on the mental toughness aspect. This .500+/- now .500- performance has been going on for over a year and a half now. If you haven't figured it out by now, IMHBAO, you are beginning to border on the ignorant/stupid side of the fence. And that would include everybody from ownership, management, coaching, training on down to the 15th man on the bench. Barring regurgitating the laundry list of excuses for subpar performance, I think we've seen the mental toughness of the group and there really isn't any. As I stated above, going back to blowing big leads in a huge step backwards in the NBA logical forward progression of a championship team. No steps are skipped. They may be accelerated like the 2008 team did in one year, but no steps are skipped. This team's performance shows zero mental toughness or at best half-assing it. I thought we had left this in the dust somewhere mid-season last year, but like Poltergeist, she's back.

Also, if the best we can do this season is get a 7th or 8th seed and then get unceremoniously swept, because that's the best that will happen short of a forfeit, then let's back up the tank and hope for a high draft pick and/or add it to stockpile Part 3 of our Big 3 currently scored as about a Big 2 1/4 and that may be giving it some. I will not take offense to a lower number if one cares to argue it.

BTW, right now, we are on the outside of the playoffs looking in. Does anyone see this team catching fire, proceeding up the now slippery slope of the East and getting anything better than 7-8th? I don't think so, Tim.

db

Atcross

You mentioned several positional needs that I agree with 110%.

Al Horford is not in a slump.  I have been watching him for years, down here when he was with the Hawks and of course his 3 years in Boston and now his return.  Al was always an undersized 5 who accomplished much because of his skills AND intensity.  As he has aged he can no longer be expected to play at a high level consistently when logging a lot of minutes.  He is trending down and has been trending down for a while.

We certainly need a floor general who can consistently pass out the cookies.  Marcus Smart is not that guy and has never been that guy.   It would be terrific if Tatum and Brown were better play makers but they are scorers first and everything else second.

However even if the jays were better at passing the ball to teammates we are still faced with the stark reality that this roster lacks that sniper or two.

Yes we do need to upgrade our 4/5 spot.  

So this roster is missing 3 key pieces.  Floor general level PG, a 3rd dynamic shooter and a legit PF.

Adding those pieces is easier said than done.  One of those pieces should have been added last off season but it was not.  Let's hope that Brad and company do not hoard draft picks in search of the next diamond in the ruff.

dbrown4 wrote:NYCelt,

I'm not sure on the mental toughness aspect.  This .500+/- now .500- performance has been going on for over a year and a half now.  If you haven't figured it out by now, IMHBAO, you are beginning to border on the ignorant/stupid side of the fence.  And that would include everybody from ownership, management, coaching, training on down to the 15th man on the bench.  Barring regurgitating the laundry list of excuses for subpar performance, I think we've seen the mental toughness of the group and there really isn't any.  As I stated above, going back to blowing big leads in a huge step backwards in the NBA logical forward progression of a championship team.  No steps are skipped.  They may be accelerated like the 2008 team did in one year, but no steps are skipped.  This team's performance shows zero mental toughness or at best half-assing it.  I thought we had left this in the dust somewhere mid-season last year, but like Poltergeist, she's back.

Also, if the best we can do this season is get a 7th or 8th seed and then get unceremoniously swept, because that's the best that will happen short of a forfeit, then let's back up the tank and hope for a high draft pick and/or add it to stockpile Part 3 of our Big 3 currently scored as about a Big 2 1/4 and that may be giving it some.  I will not take offense to a lower number if one cares to argue it.    

BTW, right now, we are on the outside of the playoffs looking in.  Does anyone see this team catching fire, proceeding up the now slippery slope of the East and getting anything better than 7-8th?  I don't think so, Tim.  

db      

db

With each game I am hopeful that some magic lantern will light the way to a win. Unfortunately this team remains in an endless loop of mediocrity.

I guess the most disturbing aspect is the fact that we have played very well at times against really good teams.

The meat of the roster is back now and hopefully they will have more time to play together and just maybe start winning some games.

They need to get back out there and try again and keep on trying until they succeed.

Hi,
Here's what a guy who knows about basketball said. I think it's applicable to the whole season as much as it's to the last night's game.
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/celtics-legend-bob-cousy-shares-180059362.html

AK

sinus007 wrote:Hi,
Here's what a guy who knows about basketball said. I think it's applicable to the whole season as much as it's to the last night's game.
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/celtics-legend-bob-cousy-shares-180059362.html

AK

No way we can argue with Cousy.

Yes we need a better PG.

dboss wrote:

sinus007 wrote:Hi,
Here's what a guy who knows about basketball said. I think it's applicable to the whole season as much as it's to the last night's game.
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/celtics-legend-bob-cousy-shares-180059362.html

AK

No way we can argue with Cousy.

Yes we need a better PG.

I don't think it's so much as simply a point guard, as it is a veteran, stabilizing presence. If that comes in the form a a point guard, so much the better. I've been thinking that could also be a power forward. We still need another big, one who can start. Horford isn't it and can't fill the bill from the bench. An even-handed, battle tested PG or PF would help.

I had a veteran PF, PG and 4 solid bench players on my Christmas list, but Santa didn't deliver. I'll try to be a better boy before next season. Maybe that will help.

NYCelt wrote:

dboss wrote:

sinus007 wrote:Hi,
Here's what a guy who knows about basketball said. I think it's applicable to the whole season as much as it's to the last night's game.
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/celtics-legend-bob-cousy-shares-180059362.html

AK

No way we can argue with Cousy.

Yes we need a better PG.

I don't think it's so much as simply a point guard, as it is a veteran, stabilizing presence. If that comes in the form a a point guard, so much the better. I've been thinking that could also be a power forward. We still need another big, one who can start. Horford isn't it and can't fill the bill from the bench. An even-handed, battle tested PG or PF would help.

I had a veteran PF, PG and 4 solid bench players on my Christmas list, but Santa didn't deliver. I'll try to be a better boy before next season. Maybe that will help.

NYCelt

I know getting that PF has been on your wish list for several years.  But Santa said NO

A PF will get you defense and rebounding and some scoring but it does not address the inefficiency in our offense.

Only a quality PG that sets the pace, makes the right decisions while calling plays and distributing the ball to the players will make us a better team even in absence of adding another quality shooter.  

As a point of reference look at the top 4 teams in each conference.  All of them have really good point guards and not just someone who can play PG.

Celtics fans spend a lot of time lamenting about the Jays and them becoming willing playmakers.  If we had a top of the line PG we would not be squandering games down the stretch.  

It is my feeling that the Celtics are in a transition year with a new coach.  I really do not anticipate any fireworks now,  But Brad better start lining up his ordnance for the off season.

NYCelt wrote:

dboss wrote:

sinus007 wrote:Hi,
Here's what a guy who knows about basketball said. I think it's applicable to the whole season as much as it's to the last night's game.
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/celtics-legend-bob-cousy-shares-180059362.html

AK

No way we can argue with Cousy.

Yes we need a better PG.

I don't think it's so much as simply a point guard, as it is a veteran, stabilizing presence. If that comes in the form a a point guard, so much the better. I've been thinking that could also be a power forward. We still need another big, one who can start. Horford isn't it and can't fill the bill from the bench. An even-handed, battle tested PG or PF would help.

I had a veteran PF, PG and 4 solid bench players on my Christmas list, but Santa didn't deliver. I'll try to be a better boy before next season. Maybe that will help.

.
NY, But a good point guard makes the game easier for the 2 all stars. They are trying to be the creators at the end of tight games. A good point guard takes that so called responsibility away from them and puts it in the hands of a floor general that puts them and other in better positions to score and control the outcome. As Cooz said, (not his exact wording but…’If we have a 8 point lead at the end no way I’m letting us lose that game’.

cowens/oldschool wrote:What a flip* disgrace, this is the Bulls game all over.

We were 2-10 in games decided by 5 points in the last 5 minutes a few games ago. Now we’re 2-12. Last 5 minutes on offense was Tatum and Smart taking turns jacking up 3’s, really!!! We all thought Brad Stevens wasn’t coaching that well, well he was light years better than Ime. This team really sucks in 4th quarters, never seen anything like it. Jaylen was terrible, on a bad possession he dribbled and dribbled then the defender knocked the ball out of bounds and we got it back with 2 seconds left. Ime took him out after that and then all he did was stand in the corner when he came back. I put that on Jaylen, he’s one of the leaders of this team, he has to demand the ball and take charge, do something. I understand Tatum had the ball a lot, but you can do and have to do more if your a pillar of the franchise.

Grant was 0-3 with 0 rebounds, Al is bricking shots at an alarming rate, can’t rebound, defends a little. Boy do we need another athletic big. Every team knows we can get rattled in the 4th of a tight game. Ime has no strategy, team has no identity to fall back on at winning time. Ime can’t even give us good coached defense in the 4th. You would think with Smart, Brown, Tatum and JRich you could come up with something to limit a hot player in the 4th, like teams do to us. Murray killed us last night in the 4th and Frenchy killed us tonight all game and 4th. I know it’s not all on Ime, it’s also on the players, but this team is getting very lousy direction/strategy from Ime on both ends and it really shows, no hiding it.

Last I looked, It was either Head Coach Ime or his identical twin on the bench when the team built a 25 point lead and was playing well. Sooooo, If we’re going to continue to blame the coach when the team loses the lead and ultimately loses the game, credit that same coach when the team is building leads and playing up to and beyond their potential. I’ll hang up and listen.

Thanks dboss for correcting my numbers on Smart's shooting, and also to sinu007 for the link to Cousy's comments.

Lots of useful criticism and advice in this thread. Thanks to all of you who contribute regularly and have allowed me to read this forum for 12+ years of enlightenment despite my few contributions.

Mahalo and Aloha (a rich word of many meanings). I lived in Hawaii for 38 years but I returned to NH 3 years ago which where I grew up.

cowens/oldschool wrote:Kitron listen we suck in 4th quarters, we suck in tight games, the coach has bad line ups out there. He doesn’t know what he’s doing. The 2 bigs doesn’t work and 2 points don’t work, with those 2 bigs and 2 points, we don’t have adequate shooting. Unless he changes things and comes up with an actual strategy, our 4th quarters are going to be the continuation of the teams downfall this season. Bellichek had plenty of assistants that failed on their own, Ime is failing, he’s not Pop. Do I have to keep going on, on all the simple things our opponents are doing, that Ime can’t solve?

Cowens, Your opinion of Ime is just that, your opinion. Your assessment of his coaching ability (“”He doesn't know what he’s doing” and “Ime cant solve”) is also your opinion. Your opinion doesn't equate to fact.
We are 40 games in and ever since game 15 you’ve been roasting him like a marshmallow, questioning his ability and intelligence.
Conflating Belichick’s success with the lack of some of his assistants success doesn't have anything to do with the Celtics situation
Pop doesn't have anything thing to do with it either. I am sure that you’re aware, San Antonio is not the only team that Ime worked for.
He’s also coached in Brooklyn and Philadelphia and has played professionally for 11 years. I think he knows the game better than we do.
He’s only been a head coach in the NBA for 40 games and you’ve already decided that he’s not the right guy. Cool, again thats your opinion and you have a right to it. Has he made mistakes? Probably but name me one coach with 10 times his experience that hasn’t. Hell, since you brought up Pop, what about the mistake he made leaving Duncan on the bench in the last minutes of regulation in game 6 of the NBA finals against Miami? I believe that was Pop’s 16th season as a Head Coach. And of course we’ll never forget Brad’s mistake of going zone with .5 left. You won’t let us. :>). BTW, Brad was in year #7.
We all want to see better results and I’m realistic enough to know it takes time, especially with this pile of crap that Danny left. The roster is suspect at best and his best players have struggled.
You minimize what other teams are doing against us saying those things are ‘simple”. It’s not simple and its simple to think that it is.
I don't care to go into every specific move, decision or ‘mistakes’ that Ime has made. Not 40 games in. if anything I’m looking at our all stars and our vets and questioning why after years of experience they don't know how to close out a game or why they’re taking bad shots when passing the ball makes more sense. I’m pretty sure that the Head Coach is not encouraging that. This is on the players.  
I’m comfortable with Ime as head coach and confident that this team will get better under his watch. That’s my opinion which as I said doesn't make it fact. We may find out down the road a piece that he wasn’t the right guy but we certainly are not going to know after 40 games. If you want to keep that fire lit and continue to question his ability and intelligence have at it.
After all, thats part of what a forum is all about.