Ime Udoka Calls Out Celtics’ Lack Of Mental Toughness - 'A repetitive result is happening'

cowens/oldschool wrote:Manure really? I actually think it’s more on the coach who hasn’t put the right line ups together or come up with the right strategy, especially in 4th quarters; which is the main reason we are 2-12 in games decided by 5 points or less and one of the weakest per in the 4th as everyone is outscoring us. Schroder, JRich, GWill and Al is not a bad bench. I put Al there because I don’t think he should be starting and Schroder was a 6th man of the year candidate previously.

112288 wrote:Folks,

First Ime signed a 3-4 year contract with the Celtics.

Second, one of the things he must do is evaluate the talent given to him not only athletically but also how they function and perform under his (Ime's) system.  

This is what is going on right now between Ime and the Team.  If athletically they are not a fit and/or unable to play in Ime's system that he has devised which BTW was developed from successful system under Pop at SA, they will be gone from the team via the trade market or out right release.  

One thing Ime is not, is a fool to accept anything less by his players in terms of attitude, competitiveness. and oh yes MATURITY !  Accepting less would result in sub-par play, sub-par results and a million light years away from banner #18!  It is Ime's ASS ON THE LINE.  It would tarnish Ime's image and label him a sub-par coach and distroy his career as a coach!  He would certainly be fired if he let it go!

Now I suspect that there is a war going on psychologically between some of the players and Ime.  I also think it involves the two J's among a small group that is showing resistance to accepting a new playing style. I think Smart revealed it in his call out beginning last year with Brown, and this year with both Brown and Tatum. I believe Brad was maybe too soft and let things slide the last couple of years between the two J's.

Why Ime used the word maturity in addressing the team in general was direct and too the point without naming names, but I suspect it was aimed at both of the J's as well. Ime is dealing with a very delicate situation with star and franchise labeled players who may be bucking the coach.  But I think Brown got the message and performed very well the next game.   But time will tell.  

Funny how Perk praised Brown on his triple double and nothing towards Tatum.  One thing for sure Perk is a Celtic for life and he still very much plugged into the eco system of the Celtics, and does have his sources for information.

That being said, do not be surprised if one is moved along with others who are not succeeding to the wishes of Ime to play tough BB for 48 minutes!  It may not happen this year, but next year could be the year one or both are gone if they are not conforming to Ime's style of play.

112288

Ktron wrote:

112288 wrote:Folks,

First Ime signed a 3-4 year contract with the Celtics.

Second, one of the things he must do is evaluate the talent given to him not only athletically but also how they function and perform under his (Ime's) system.  

This is what is going on right now between Ime and the Team.  If athletically they are not a fit and/or unable to play in Ime's system that he has devised which BTW was developed from successful system under Pop at SA, they will be gone from the team via the trade market or out right release.  

One thing Ime is not, is a fool to accept anything less by his players in terms of attitude, competitiveness. and oh yes MATURITY !  Accepting less would result in sub-par play, sub-par results and a million light years away from banner #18!  It is Ime's ASS ON THE LINE.  It would tarnish Ime's image and label him a sub-par coach and distroy his career as a coach!  He would certainly be fired if he let it go!

Now I suspect that there is a war going on psychologically between some of the players and Ime.  I also think it involves the two J's among a small group that is showing resistance to accepting a new playing style. I think Smart revealed it in his call out beginning last year with Brown, and this year with both Brown and Tatum. I believe Brad was maybe too soft and let things slide the last couple of years between the two J's.

Why Ime used the word maturity in addressing the team in general was direct and too the point without naming names, but I suspect it was aimed at both of the J's as well. Ime is dealing with a very delicate situation with star and franchise labeled players who may be bucking the coach.  But I think Brown got the message and performed very well the next game.   But time will tell.  

Funny how Perk praised Brown on his triple double and nothing towards Tatum.  One thing for sure Perk is a Celtic for life and he still very much plugged into the eco system of the Celtics, and does have his sources for information.

That being said, do not be surprised if one is moved along with others who are not succeeding to the wishes of Ime to play tough BB for 48 minutes!  It may not happen this year, but next year could be the year one or both are gone if they are not conforming to Ime's style of play.

112288

Drop the Mic sir. Couldn’t agree more.

112288 wrote:jrleftfoot - I measure Tatum's performance not by how many rebounds or points you put up on the stat sheet like he did in the past, but what he is doing to meld into Ime's basketball style he wants played. So I do not care if he has an off night, I just want to see his style of play change for the better to make him a more complete player, a team oriented player.

In Tatum's case Ime is looking to change aspects of his game from run shoot, to run pass head to the basket and try to get a rebound if there is a miss.  Or, run pass set a hard screen for the ball handler.  I also look at the number of assists he's averaging per game.  I also look at BB court judgement on the court which is very important.  In the past Tatum has a tendency to play hero ball by taking too many iso plays by himself, either by taking contested 3 point shots where he should have passed the ball, to charging the basket in a clogged lane of defenders and getting stripped of the ball for a turnover.

I am fan and an observer and yet I can see Tatum's mistakes, however Smart is a player on the floor and he called Tatum and Brown out for this sort of play that I am observing, so is Ime.  Funny that Brown is coming around and is conforming to this new style of play and had his first career triple double the other day.  

As far as Tatum's illness goes, his illness has nothing to do with what is being asked of him to perform on the floor like pass the ball to an open man or set a screen.  His 3 point shooting has regressed this year even before he got Convid.  Last night he went 0 - 6 from 3 point land.

Finally, one last point, Billy Martin was fired because he was a ragging alcoholic not because he was a lousy manager.  He fielded teams that were winners wherever he went to manage.  I saw the game where Jackson and Martin got into a dugout fight.  It was due to Jackson not running out a play.  Martin was justified in going after him as Jackson had a very very big ego.  As he was once quoted - "I am the straw that stirs the drink!"  Now that is a person who believes in too many headlines he reads about himself and begins to believe them.  Got to stay humble because as Frank Sinatra once song a line in a song - "I am flying high in April, shot down in May!"

Shamrock 1000 - You use the phrase "a players league", is that a cliche you decided to use, because it has been overused and miss interrupted  for years.  Basketball strategy has changed over the last decade and in my opinion not for the better.  It was not changed because players said so, it was changed due to the introduction of data analytics that entered into the game and being used to dictate how the game is played.  A few examples that Stevens used while coaching the Celtics was his strategy of wanting 100 shots taken during a game.  The stats showed that the probability of winning a game was higher if you put up 100 shots.  Another example was his wanting as many 3 point shots as possible, because the odds favor you to outscore your opponent if you do that.

My belief is that this current style of play based on what is being used (analytics), and is destroying the fine art of the game of basketball and destroying the product.  Half the time I turn off a game I am watching if all I see on every play is 3 pints being jacked up by both teams.

Most coaches now have turned to this as a pathway to winning, while other coaches have stayed to the old tried "old school" basketball, but that group is dwindling.

So I feel the players are being feed this crap and they are being told to perform accordingly. What happens to all players who are not taught the finer points of how to play basketball, is when they go to another team and are asked to play "old School" basketball, they cannot.  Why?  Because they were never taught the true fundamentals first, second they may cop an attitude towards the coach and not believe in what he is teaching and requiring players to perform.

That is probably what is occurring with the Celtics now.

I will end by saying, a team is not a team unless you have rules and authority, just as a country is not a country without laws!

112288

112288 wrote:jrleftfoot - I measure Tatum's performance not by how many rebounds or points you put up on the stat sheet like he did in the past, but what he is doing to meld into Ime's basketball style he wants played. So I do not care if he has an off night, I just want to see his style of play change for the better to make him a more complete player, a team oriented player.

In Tatum's case Ime is looking to change aspects of his game from run shoot, to run pass head to the basket and try to get a rebound if there is a miss.  Or, run pass set a hard screen for the ball handler.  I also look at the number of assists he's averaging per game.  I also look at BB court judgement on the court which is very important.  In the past Tatum has a tendency to play hero ball by taking too many iso plays by himself, either by taking contested 3 point shots where he should have passed the ball, to charging the basket in a clogged lane of defenders and getting stripped of the ball for a turnover.

I am fan and an observer and yet I can see Tatum's mistakes, however Smart is a player on the floor and he called Tatum and Brown out for this sort of play that I am observing, so is Ime.  Funny that Brown is coming around and is conforming to this new style of play and had his first career triple double the other day.  

As far as Tatum's illness goes, his illness has nothing to do with what is being asked of him to perform on the floor like pass the ball to an open man or set a screen.  His 3 point shooting has regressed this year even before he got Convid.  Last night he went 0 - 6 from 3 point land.

Finally, one last point, Billy Martin was fired because he was a ragging alcoholic not because he was a lousy manager.  He fielded teams that were winners wherever he went to manage.  I saw the game where Jackson and Martin got into a dugout fight.  It was due to Jackson not running out a play.  Martin was justified in going after him as Jackson had a very very big ego.  As he was once quoted - "I am the straw that stirs the drink!"  Now that is a person who believes in too many headlines he reads about himself and begins to believe them.  Got to stay humble because as Frank Sinatra once song a line in a song - "I am flying high in April, shot down in May!"

Shamrock 1000 - You use the phrase "a players league", is that a cliche you decided to use, because it has been overused and miss interrupted  for years.  Basketball strategy has changed over the last decade and in my opinion not for the better.  It was not changed because players said so, it was changed due to the introduction of data analytics that entered into the game and being used to dictate how the game is played.  A few examples that Stevens used while coaching the Celtics was his strategy of wanting 100 shots taken during a game.  The stats showed that the probability of winning a game was higher if you put up 100 shots.  Another example was his wanting as many 3 point shots as possible, because the odds favor you to outscore your opponent if you do that.

My belief is that this current style of play based on what is being used (analytics), and is destroying the fine art of the game of basketball and destroying the product.  Half the time I turn off a game I am watching if all I see on every play is 3 pints being jacked up by both teams.

Most coaches now have turned to this as a pathway to winning, while other coaches have stayed to the old tried "old school" basketball, but that group is dwindling.

So I feel the players are being feed this crap and they are being told to perform accordingly. What happens to all players who are not taught the finer points of how to play basketball, is when they go to another team and are asked to play "old School" basketball, they cannot.  Why?  Because they were never taught the true fundamentals first, second they may cop an attitude towards the coach and not believe in what he is teaching and requiring players to perform.

That is probably what is occurring with the Celtics now.

I will end by saying, a team is not a team unless you have rules and authority, just as a country is not a country without laws!

112288                                                                                                    I made two points, both of which I'm sticking by. 1. In the unlikely case that the Jays can't play under Ime, he is far more likely to go than they are. 2. Tatum's play may very well be affected by his body's reponse to covid. Evidently you disagree with those two points, which is, obviously, your perogative. I think you may have taken the Billy Martin reference a bit too literally. Having been a Yankee fan all my life, I know his sad saga very well. If I wanted to nitpick, I could say that that that raging alcoholic was the authority figure under your construction. Coaches don't make "laws." They create systems that are either successful or not. I hope and expect that the Celtics will be successful under Udoka, but if they aren't, I doubt very seriously that either of their center-pieces will be the reason, nor that the front office will construe it that way. Again I may be wrong. We'll see.

jrleftfoot wrote:Billy Martin, not Reggie Jackson , gets fired.

NYCelt wrote:

jrleftfoot wrote:Billy Martin, not Reggie Jackson , gets fired.

And Martin sure got fired (and hired) a lot!

Shamrock1000 wrote:

Ktron wrote:

112288 wrote:Folks,

First Ime signed a 3-4 year contract with the Celtics.

Second, one of the things he must do is evaluate the talent given to him not only athletically but also how they function and perform under his (Ime's) system.  

This is what is going on right now between Ime and the Team.  If athletically they are not a fit and/or unable to play in Ime's system that he has devised which BTW was developed from successful system under Pop at SA, they will be gone from the team via the trade market or out right release.  

One thing Ime is not, is a fool to accept anything less by his players in terms of attitude, competitiveness. and oh yes MATURITY !  Accepting less would result in sub-par play, sub-par results and a million light years away from banner #18!  It is Ime's ASS ON THE LINE.  It would tarnish Ime's image and label him a sub-par coach and distroy his career as a coach!  He would certainly be fired if he let it go!

Now I suspect that there is a war going on psychologically between some of the players and Ime.  I also think it involves the two J's among a small group that is showing resistance to accepting a new playing style. I think Smart revealed it in his call out beginning last year with Brown, and this year with both Brown and Tatum. I believe Brad was maybe too soft and let things slide the last couple of years between the two J's.

Why Ime used the word maturity in addressing the team in general was direct and too the point without naming names, but I suspect it was aimed at both of the J's as well. Ime is dealing with a very delicate situation with star and franchise labeled players who may be bucking the coach.  But I think Brown got the message and performed very well the next game.   But time will tell.  

Funny how Perk praised Brown on his triple double and nothing towards Tatum.  One thing for sure Perk is a Celtic for life and he still very much plugged into the eco system of the Celtics, and does have his sources for information.

That being said, do not be surprised if one is moved along with others who are not succeeding to the wishes of Ime to play tough BB for 48 minutes!  It may not happen this year, but next year could be the year one or both are gone if they are not conforming to Ime's style of play.

112288

Drop the Mic sir. Couldn’t agree more.

I don't agree. It's a players league. If there is a problem between the core and Ime, then Ime will be gone. I do agree that our players might not be a great fit for Ime's system, but seems to me moving the coach is more likely than rebuilding the team. Coaches should be able to adjust to the hand their dealt. You can debate whether or not things should be like this, but they certainly are like this

Ktron wrote:

Shamrock1000 wrote:

Ktron wrote:

112288 wrote:Folks,

First Ime signed a 3-4 year contract with the Celtics.

Second, one of the things he must do is evaluate the talent given to him not only athletically but also how they function and perform under his (Ime's) system.  

This is what is going on right now between Ime and the Team.  If athletically they are not a fit and/or unable to play in Ime's system that he has devised which BTW was developed from successful system under Pop at SA, they will be gone from the team via the trade market or out right release.  

One thing Ime is not, is a fool to accept anything less by his players in terms of attitude, competitiveness. and oh yes MATURITY !  Accepting less would result in sub-par play, sub-par results and a million light years away from banner #18!  It is Ime's ASS ON THE LINE.  It would tarnish Ime's image and label him a sub-par coach and distroy his career as a coach!  He would certainly be fired if he let it go!

Now I suspect that there is a war going on psychologically between some of the players and Ime.  I also think it involves the two J's among a small group that is showing resistance to accepting a new playing style. I think Smart revealed it in his call out beginning last year with Brown, and this year with both Brown and Tatum. I believe Brad was maybe too soft and let things slide the last couple of years between the two J's.

Why Ime used the word maturity in addressing the team in general was direct and too the point without naming names, but I suspect it was aimed at both of the J's as well. Ime is dealing with a very delicate situation with star and franchise labeled players who may be bucking the coach.  But I think Brown got the message and performed very well the next game.   But time will tell.  

Funny how Perk praised Brown on his triple double and nothing towards Tatum.  One thing for sure Perk is a Celtic for life and he still very much plugged into the eco system of the Celtics, and does have his sources for information.

That being said, do not be surprised if one is moved along with others who are not succeeding to the wishes of Ime to play tough BB for 48 minutes!  It may not happen this year, but next year could be the year one or both are gone if they are not conforming to Ime's style of play.

112288

Drop the Mic sir. Couldn’t agree more.

I don't agree. It's a players league. If there is a problem between the core and Ime, then Ime will be gone. I do agree that our players might not be a great fit for Ime's system, but seems to me moving the coach is more likely than rebuilding the team. Coaches should be able to adjust to the hand their dealt. You can debate whether or not things should be like this, but they certainly are like this

No kidding. It’s not up for debate. It tis what it tis. Lets  fire the coach after 40 games. Cant say I’m not surprised but I think its absurd that that word has even come up.

Shamrock1000 wrote:

Ktron wrote:

Shamrock1000 wrote:

Ktron wrote:

112288 wrote:Folks,

First Ime signed a 3-4 year contract with the Celtics.

Second, one of the things he must do is evaluate the talent given to him not only athletically but also how they function and perform under his (Ime's) system.  

This is what is going on right now between Ime and the Team.  If athletically they are not a fit and/or unable to play in Ime's system that he has devised which BTW was developed from successful system under Pop at SA, they will be gone from the team via the trade market or out right release.  

One thing Ime is not, is a fool to accept anything less by his players in terms of attitude, competitiveness. and oh yes MATURITY !  Accepting less would result in sub-par play, sub-par results and a million light years away from banner #18!  It is Ime's ASS ON THE LINE.  It would tarnish Ime's image and label him a sub-par coach and distroy his career as a coach!  He would certainly be fired if he let it go!

Now I suspect that there is a war going on psychologically between some of the players and Ime.  I also think it involves the two J's among a small group that is showing resistance to accepting a new playing style. I think Smart revealed it in his call out beginning last year with Brown, and this year with both Brown and Tatum. I believe Brad was maybe too soft and let things slide the last couple of years between the two J's.

Why Ime used the word maturity in addressing the team in general was direct and too the point without naming names, but I suspect it was aimed at both of the J's as well. Ime is dealing with a very delicate situation with star and franchise labeled players who may be bucking the coach.  But I think Brown got the message and performed very well the next game.   But time will tell.  

Funny how Perk praised Brown on his triple double and nothing towards Tatum.  One thing for sure Perk is a Celtic for life and he still very much plugged into the eco system of the Celtics, and does have his sources for information.

That being said, do not be surprised if one is moved along with others who are not succeeding to the wishes of Ime to play tough BB for 48 minutes!  It may not happen this year, but next year could be the year one or both are gone if they are not conforming to Ime's style of play.

112288

Drop the Mic sir. Couldn’t agree more.

I don't agree. It's a players league. If there is a problem between the core and Ime, then Ime will be gone. I do agree that our players might not be a great fit for Ime's system, but seems to me moving the coach is more likely than rebuilding the team. Coaches should be able to adjust to the hand their dealt. You can debate whether or not things should be like this, but they certainly are like this

No kidding. It’s not up for debate. It tis what it tis. Lets  fire the coach after 40 games. Cant say I’m not surprised but I think its absurd that that word has even come up.

Not sure who said fire the coach. I certainly didn't. My comments were in response to another poster suggesting management would move JT or JB if Ime felt like they weren't falling in line. I won't reiterate my reasoning. Regardless of whether or not we like it, unresolvable conflict between coaches and stars in the NBA almost always ends with the coach being fired. I don't see any major problems between Ime and the players - hell, they pretty much picked him. So I'm certainly not calling for Ime's head. As I said in another post, I'm on the "it's hard to win when your two best players and team leaders are under 25" bandwagon.

dbrown4 wrote:

Always a pessimistically optimistic realist!  Hey, they made me this way!  

db