Offseason Celtics Issues

I'm of the opinion that consolidating the posts on a given topic, by having them all on one thread, creates a more focused and lively conversational environment. Many times, I'd like to respond to an opinion I recall, and I have to sift through half a dozen threads on the same subject in order to find the post containing that original opinion. Sometimes people have to post the same thought on two or three different threads just to make sure they've covered all the bases. In a great many cases, there's no reason at all to start a new thread just because of the discovery of an additional news snippet on an old topic.

I'd be happy to hear others' opinions on something I consider an important issue because it has a bearing on how compelling a given thread can be. In the meantime, I'm taking the initiative in starting a thread called "Offseason Celtics Issues." This thread could embrace Doc's re-signing situation, draft and trade possibilities, free agency matters, or anything that relates directly to how the Celtics are shaping up for next season. Generally speaking, I'd restrict this thread to Celtics matters and would encourage subjects concerning other teams to be assigned to separate threads. Once again, it could be there's a consensus that's different from my views, and I definitely want to be responsive to the mood of the board constituency.

Anyway, I'm starting the thread with some quotes I found in Hoops Hype concerning Doc's re-signing situation. It seemed a particularly good summary of everything I've read about this matter, plus a few new slants. I was particularly interested in (if I interpreted the comment correctly) Rondo's apparent leap at the opportunity to lock Doc into staying.

I'm hoping Doc will finalize his extension sooner rather than later, as I believe the promise of his continued presence could have a major bearing on decisions of free agents.

Following are the quotes.

Sam

Over the past couple of weeks, Rivers came to the conclusion that he wants to come back and coach the Celtics next season as opposed to taking a year off to watch his son, Austin, play at Duke. On Tuesday night, after the Celtics were knocked out of the playoffs with a 97-87 loss to the Heat, Rivers revealed what he concluded during Boston’s latest playoff run. “I’m leaning heavily toward coming back,” Rivers said. “I haven’t made that decision, but I can tell you I probably will. I’ve kind of come to that over the last couple of weeks. You know, I’m a Celtic. And I love our guys and I want to win again here. I do. I’m competitive as hell, I have a competitive group, and so we’ ll see. But I can tell you that’s where I’m at today.” CBSSports.com
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Chris Forsberg: Rondo: "I’m going to put this on the record: Doc already committed, said he’s coming back. He can’t go back on his word." Twitter
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On his way out of American Airlines Arena, Rivers said Celtics management came back to him after the playoffs started to press for a decision. There was a meeting after one of the opening games of this series in Miami. “Danny (Ainge) and Wyc (Grousbeck) and them have been on the other side of patience,” Rivers said in the hallway of the arena. “And it gave us a long time to talk about it as a family. So I haven’t signed anything or done anything. But it’s there and I probably will sign it.” CBSSports.com
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Rivers' decision isn't final, though he gave Ainge the go-ahead to speak with his agent, Lonnie Cooper -- a gesture that was understood to mean Rivers is serious about staying. "I just told them, 'You can just talk to Lonnie,'" Rivers said. "'I don’t want to hear nothing, I don’t want to see nothing. I just want to do my job.' And then we talked last week ... and I told them, 'Whatever you work out with Lonnie, I’ll probably do it." The pause gave Rivers time to focus on the task at hand and also speak with his family; his wife has only one child still at home, Winter Park High School senior Spencer. "And he told me he doesn't want me home," Rivers said with a smile. CBSSports.com
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Rivers staying in Boston also takes him off the market for any number of teams that may have been hoping he'd take a sabbatical and be ready to return to the sideline in 2012. New York, where Rivers played, and Orlando, where he coached, were two of the most logical landing spots. But sources say Rivers has not forgotten the loyalty Ainge and the Celtics showed him when they stuck with him through one losing season after another before the 2007 trades that brought Garnett, Allen and Pierce together. "It would be hard for him to leave," one person close to Rivers said. "He wants to show the same loyalty they showed him." CBSSports.com
Rumors tagsBoston Celtics, Doc Rivers, Coaching | share Share on FacebookShare on twitterComment on HoopsHype forums

"Listen, there’s been a contract for basically three months there. (Team president) Danny (Ainge) and (co-owner) Wyc Grousbeck have been on the other side of patient," he said after announcing he was leaning toward returning. "It gave us a long time to talk about it as a family. I haven’t signed anything or done anything but it’s there and I probably will sign it." Rivers coming back gives Celtics fans a less anxious summer and means the Big Three along with some new parts will return for one more run. "We only got one (child) left at the house and he basically told me he didn't want me home," Rivers said laughing. "It will be easier and that's one of the things for my family because it's only Austin playing and Spencer. The other two are graduated from college. And it will be less travel in a lot of ways and they can come see me more because my wife only has one kid in the house. So that's big for us. I told (Wyc) before one of the games here, whatever you figure out with (my agent), I'll probably do it." Boston Globe

Reserve forward Jeff Green, a restricted free agent this summer, said after tonight's 97-87 loss to the Miami Heat that he'd like to play in Boston next year.

"This is a great place," said Green. "I've just got to get better for myself personally. This being my fourth year, making it to the second round, this is a great experience for myself, just going through it. This is going to help me in the long run."

Nenad Krstic got off to such a positive start in Boston in February, but then became an afterthought. He did, however, have his best game of the playoffs with 8 points and two rebounds last night. The free agent said he would like to remain a Celtic.

“I know my role changed and I didn’t get as much playing time, but I like the guys and I like the system,’’ said Krstic. “Whatever I can do to help the team, I will. I haven’t talked to my agent or anything, but I would like to come back.’’

Per Globe:

This is expected to be the lone season in Boston for assistant coach Lawrence Frank, who is a candidate for the Houston and Golden State head coaching jobs. Frank has interviewed with the Rockets while the Warriors have included him in their pool of candidates .

I find it interesting the Jeff Green points to self-improvement as one possible motivation to stay with the Celtics. I infer from that (and possibly I'm reading too much into it) that he feels the Celtics do things the "right" way (whatever that means) in games and on the practice court. It can also suggest that he believes his play has benefited as at least a part-time understudy to Paul Pierce.

It seems to me that Jeff already possesses a good feel for the game and natural athleticism. His offensive instincts include a lot of variety—from stepbacks out of the post to penetration to power moves to medium-range jumpers to perimeter shooting. I believe he can gain considerably in all these respects by further association with Paul—and presumably Jeff feels so as well.

With Oklahoma, he was necessarily forced into a prominent role in which the team needed and wanted whatever he could currently provide rather than placing him in a developmental role. With the Celtics, he'll have the benefit of the opportunity to grow as a player, and I'm betting he realizes that. I disagree with those who feel that what he is showing now pretty much captures his future potential.

Sam

Completely agree on Green.

He has all the tools to wear the green and run along side Rondo, D West and Avery Bradley for a long time to come. He has to get more aggressive and take it at his man - but when he puts it all together, watch out. He has a ton of natural talent and a great attitude.

Here's the issue with Green, mrkleen, his passiveness has been an area of concern since his days at Georgetown and it's not going to change IMO, it's who he is.

I hope he does improve and take on a bigger more aggressive role in the future, but some guys are not built that way.

Rehire Doc? Fire Doc! He blew this series when he played the Big 3 every possible minute he could squeeze out of them all season long. Late in the season, they literally ran out of gas over and over in game after game. Jeff Green's minutes should have been much higher from the start, much much higher: they should have climbed on the kid's back - they needed to, if only to forget Perk. Instead, Green was playing fewer minutes than he did in OKC. Krstic should have been in there more. DWest didn't get anywhere near enough playing time at the end.

And what happened to all those other guys Danny brought in at the trading deadline? Doc's a player's coach but, in the last 2 months, he needed to exert his authority and tell the Big 3 and Rondo they were going to sit and rest, recuperate and watch. So what if they blew a few games and lost home court advantage? They did anyway and, the 4 key players were worn out in the process. When it came to doling out minutes, Doc was penny wise and pound foolish.

So why didn't he cut back on the minutes? Because the Big 3 also have Big Egos. As athletes age they can't admit that they can't play as many minutes as effectively as they did when they were young. They take pride in playing hurt, they think the team needs them and no one can do what they do, and don't have the right perspective that they might be hurting their team by playing less effectively. That's when the coach needs to step in. That's what Doc didn't do this season.

And he won't do it next season, either. For example, it's been observed here many times that Ray Allen would be an excellent sixth man. What are the chances Doc would do that?

Another example: there is an exciting, young core of players here now who can run the floor. None of them are Big Egos. So it's a fair bet the team won't have a running game again next year. I don't blame the Egos for this, either. They get paid enough, they won't complain that loudly if they have to sit and watch the young legs go running. Unfortunately, unless they get a new coach, one who isn't afraid of bruising egos, they're going to be a halfcourt team again next year.

One last reason why Doc needs to go: they got away from the team concept. At the beginning of the season, they were dazzling other teams with their teamwork and unselfish attitude. But at the end of the season, the other team did that to them. I'm not saying there was anything Doc could have done that he didn't do. I'm saying he couldn't do what needed to be done - for any number of reasons, but mainly because he wore them out.

So if I were Danny, my big move for next year would be to Fire Doc and bring K.C. Jones out of retirement.

KC Jones was born May 25, 1932.

That makes him 79 years old.

The man has done enough.

bob

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So if I were Danny, my big move for next year would be to Fire Doc and bring K.C. Jones out of retirement.

[/quote]

Rick,

You can't be serious here, KC was the king in running the starters in the ground. I'm assuming this was a tongue and cheek post.

My main disappointment this season, other than the obvious, was not to really get a look at what we had. It would have been so much fun to watch this group play together, as I think we had all the tools to win it all.

As far as next year, I need to come down from all this before I can even think about it. But I will take great satisfaction if the Heat loose. I hate to see negative behavior rewarded, which is what a championship going to Miami would mean to me.

To all members, thanks for making this board the best place for Celtics talk, have a great summer, and to Jeb, keep on kicking it!!!

To the Bulls, go for it, you have a great team & an excellent coach, put 'em away.

Pete

The season is over, sad to say. It sure was a disappointment to one who considers the NBA title something of a birthright for Celtics fans. Oh well, as Coach BB would say. "We are moving on" LOL

It's great to see the positive attitude that the players, coaches, management and ownership are displaying. Too bad all the so called die hard Celtics fans don't concur. But let's "move on".

Danny did a great job rebuilding the Celtics twice since the end of last season. While all of his personnel decisions didn't work out, he made a solid effort at keeping the C's competitive and in matching moves from other teams.

Doc will soon be considered the best coach in the NBA. With theknick now out of coaching, where he belongs, the only real competition is from San Antone. Doc has his issues, like not playing rookies, but he has shown an incredible ability to lead high priced, over egoed, athletes and mold them into a team that can compete for championships year after year.

PP Paul returns after once again defying the odds and improving his game in multiple areas. He is the Captain and a Celtic for life.

RA Future HoFer and current and mebbe for all time 3 point scoring champion will be back for the final year of his extension. He could play a few more years, mebbe even for the C's. He is still a starter in this league and for this team. He will be until someone better comes along.

KG KG is the one of the big 3 most likely to not end his career as a Celtic. He is not as old or over the hill as his detractors would suggest. He may be the most likely to be traded although that honor could go to RA.

Rondo Elite pg, wouldn't trade him for any other pg in the league and I think Danny agrees as he has said the Big Three could be on the block, but not Rondo.

The above form the core of this team and are the most likely to return for another run at #18.

Shaq He has another year on his contract but he may be done.

JO He could be back if he wants to play another season. His play after recovery from surgery showed he can still play even though he no longer has the skill set that made him famous for a few years in Indiana.

Big Baby I dont expect him to return and after his play in the playoffs, or lack thereof, he's an iffy decision. He will never be more than a role player but he wants so much to start. More likely to happen in a new locale.

Nenad Serviceable back up but can he really get the job done for more than a few games after a trade?

Green Heir apparent to PP He will be much better next season.

West If he stays out of trouble and heals his body, we have the back up 2 for Ray and Rondo.

Bradley is the only other player worth mentioning in terms of next year. Now we have that one out of the way we can move on.

Other players could be resigned or not. It really doesn't matter as the bench needs improvement and no one has distinguished themselves. How could they after a second round elimination against a team they should be 3-2 against instead of 'gone fishin'.

spike's post has to be a joke, right?
Besides everything he said about Doc which is not correct, he mentioned KC Jones who hasn't coached in 20 years.
As a coincidence, I heard an interview with KC on the radio a few months ago and unfortunately it was clear that his mental facilities are not at 100%.

JON seriously contemplating retirement. Not really news, I know, but...

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/basketball/celtics/view.bg?articleid=1337621&srvc=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed% 3A+bostonherald%2Fsports%2Fbasketball%2Fceltics+%28Boston+Celtics+-+Celtics+%26+NBA+-+BostonHerald.com%29&utm_content=Google+Reader

bob

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Excerpts from Danny Ainge's last WEEI interview of the season:

On the future of the team:
"We need to make changes for sure. I don’t think [the roster is good enough to compete for a title next year]. But having said that that’s my job is to evaluate the reasons why we didn’t play the way we’re capable of playing ... We do have a team that next year come playoff time will be a year older and a team like Miami will be in their prime years."

On the Kendrick Perkins trade:
"I know that there’s people out there that want to blame the Perkins trade for our lack of success this year, I’m OK with that. There’s a legitimate argument to be made. I don’t really buy into the screens being set and Rondo being in a bit of a funk."

The starting lineup could see some significant changes next season. If Jeff Green returns, Ainge said the 24-year-old's role will certainly be enhanced. Ainge said he intends to extend Green a qualifying offer before the July 30 deadline. He threw out the hypothetical possibility of Paul Pierce coming off the bench, but said the veterans will be willing to play different roles.

"Knowing father time never loses, I think their being able to carry a team day in and out might be over," Ainge said. "But their ability to be contributors to very good basketball teams is still there. we have to surround them with good players if we have any chance of winning a championship next year ... "

On the starting lineup changing:
"Maybe there’s a change of roles. Maybe Paul comes off the bench, cuts down on his minutes. Maybe we find a way to get Jeff more minutes. His role will expand if he’s back here next year. There’s no question about that ... "

"It wouldn’t totally shock me if there’s a change in the starting lineup, but that’s just way too tough to tell."

On the possibility of trading one of the Big Three:
"I would have to look into that if a good trade came about"

On the possibility of trading Rondo:
Probably not. I can’t ever say never, but that’s not our plan right now, probably not.

Ainge was willing to take the fallout from the trade, but the one thing he said he regrets is not doing more to bring back Tony Allen, who signed a three-year, $9 million contract with the Memphis Grizzles, who are currently battling the Oklahoma City Thunder in the Western Conference Semifinals. He said the team could have used Allen's toughness.

Ainge's biggest regret:
"I would have fought harder to bring Tony Allen back," Ainge said. "We tried to sign Tony, we tried to come within our rules of staying in our two-year program. I think that Tony would have helped us.

"We offered Tony a two-year deal out of the gate, but then when Memphis showed him some love and he started thinking about the idea of more playing time ... Then, he wanted a change of scenery."

With coach Doc Rivers saying last night that he was leaning heavily toward returning next season, Ainge said that the notion that Rivers was wedded to the Big Three Era only was false and that he sees Rivers as a coach who could be with the franchise for several years in the way that longtime Jazz coach Jerry Sloan was in Utah before retiring this season.

On Rivers's long-term future with the team:

"I think that’s the wrong assumption about Doc," Ainge said. "That’s what most people think, he would just be here with this group of guys. I think Doc is a coach at heart. I think Doc likes the idea of staying in Boston.

"If there comes a time where our goal change in a year or two, where the goal is to make the playoffs, I think Doc would welcome that challenge too. He knows that every year of your career, you can’t be fighting for an NBA championship.

"I think he likes the idea of being a Jerry Sloan type coach and being with a franchise for a long time."

Glen Davis said he thinks he ready to be a started in this league, Ainge didn't address it, but he said that he wanted to try to bring him back next season. Ainge said he didn't think conditioning was the reason for his subpar postseason.

"We had a weight clause with Glen in his contract. He did good [with that]. I didn’t see it on the court. I saw him competing hard. I know Glen had some sore knees. There’s just a lot of factors."

The likelihood that Shaquille O'Neal retires is strong, Ainge said, but Jermaine O'Neal, who spoke with Ainge today, could return.

bob

.

bobheckler wrote:JON seriously contemplating retirement. Not really news, I know, but...

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/basketball/celtics/view.bg?articleid=1337621&srvc=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed% 3A+bostonherald%2Fsports%2Fbasketball%2Fceltics+%28Boston+Celtics+-+Celtics+%26+NBA+-+BostonHerald.com%29&utm_content=Google+Reader

bob

.

I think it's time.

I saw a recent article on the Celtics with a built-in poll. The theme was "keep or trash" and you could select who should stay or go from the season-ending roster. If I get time I'll see if I can find it again and provide the link.

I thought it was a good conversation starter. Here's who I would keep (more or less in order);

Rondo
Green
Pierce
Ray
KG
West
Krstic

That's it.

As has been discussed on another thread I would supplement the roster around this core and bide my time for 2012 free agency. I think we would still be competitive with that core and possibly even contend depending on reserves available on favorable terms.

As posters have pointed out elsewhere I would listen to offers in advance of 2012 and the players I would try and keep off the bargaining table at this time would be Rondo and possibly Green.

Gee, I wish I was a GM...

Here's an article from RealGM.com about Danny's challenges. Long, but interesting and tries to be comprehensive (ergo, the "long").

http://basketball.realgm.com/article/213674/Whither_The_Celtics_Four_Paths_to_the_Future

bob


.

Okay, so maybe some of my post about Doc was joking. But to hear age discrimation creep into the discussion. I mean, so what if he's almost eighty? He's one of the greatest winners in basketball history. Doc can't hold K.C.'s jockstrap!

In all seriousness, maybe Doc has had his run. Red said coaches have about a 6 year shelf life. The minutes issue is the biggest issue this team faces next year, imho. They were worn out and didn't have the stamina. And Doc needed to say, forget about the won-loss record, we need to rest these guys. This is Doc's Achilles heel. I don't care how much they get paid, the Big 3 are not supermen. Somehow, someway, Doc needs to keep their minutes down.

MPG 2011 Last 10 reg season games Career
Ray Allen 36.1 36.9 37.0
Paul Pierce 34.7 35.2 37.0
KG 31.3 29.4 36.7

The last 10 regular season games included games against Miami, Chicago and the San Antonio Spurs. Those were "statement" games, and you should expect heavier, playoff level minutes for the starters in those 3 games.

They don't seem to be overplayed. I think they were just outplayed.

bob

.

Those are heavy minutes for guys in their mid-thirties. In their careers, they've played serious minutes. The years take their toll and with the schedule they follow, it's tough. The older you get, the more you play, the tougher it is to recover between games. They lost way too many games in the fourth quarter because they ran out of gas. When you're tired you make mistakes you wouldn't ordinarily make, like bad passes and missed layups.

It's a copout simply to say they were outplayed. Why? Because they didn't have the ganas? They've got more ganas than a dog's got fleas. There's no problem on the Celtics with mental toughness, as the last game proved beyond a doubt. The problem was too m,any minutes. The problem was some cockeyed idea that they could wear themselves out during the regular season and still beat younger, more athletic teams in the playoffs.

Who was saying that Krstic should have gotten more minutes earlier in the series with the Heat? Who thought Green should get more chances in crunch time with the starters? I love Doc but he blew it. The buck stops with Doc.

While I'm on the subject: Why did the Lakers lose? It wasn't lack of talent; it wasn't because they don't know how to win; and it wasn't because this same group of players who came back from that debacle in 2008 and won back to backs, including beating their old nemesis who kicked sand in their faces, didn't have what it takes. My own cockeyed theory is that it was all the games they've played the last few years and the level of effort they've exerted in those games. It finally caught up. Just like it did to the Cs.

I'll say it again: these guys are playing at an extraordinary level and they aren't supermen.

spike,

Did you not see that Doc rested his guys for the last 2 games of the regular season and they had a week off after the Knicks series? Most said all the time off might have hurt Boston.

You must have some idea that KC Jones was the reason why Boston was successful in the 1980's. That team had one of the top 10 greatest players of all time, 3 other hall of famers, a scappy player who could score in Ainge and an excellent bench.

KC hasn't been a head coach in 20 years.

The Lakers lost because they ran into a better team that is playing their best ball of the season right now.
It is like a hockey goalie who gets hot in the playoffs and can lead his team to a title.
Did San Antonio lose because their players played heavy minutes this year? No, they got outplayed by a more athletic and aggressive team.

K.C. is incredibly underrated. No one really knows what K.C. accomplished because his story's never been told. It's something I've been working on the last few months when I've had limited access a computer. That part was tongue in cheek, for the record.

The part about minutes was serious. It's not about young and athletic. It's about mental toughness. The Cs and Ls have that but they lost anyway. Why? Because when they reached down for that extra something that always got them through in the end, it wasn't there.

I just don't buy the argument that one team was in some material way better than another. At that level, skills balance out and the mental part of the game takes over. It's why Bill Russell, a notoriously bad free throw shooter, rarely missed free throws in the fourth quarter and OT. It's a question of will.

The Lakers lost because they couldn't will themselves to victory. Why? All things being equal, they've played hundreds of more taxing games over the last few years than the Griz. It's a mind-body thing. Their bodies wore down and their minds followed.

One of the saddest days I remember was when John Havlicek announced his retirement. He was 37. His level of play didn't seem to have slipped. But he gave a reason that is unforgettable: John Havlicek said that his legs were gone, at 37 - the guy with the motor up his ass. It haven't checked, but I think he played about 45,000 minutes. Russell played about 40,000 and retired at 36.

I find it hard to believe people don't see it. What do you think happened? They didn't quit. They simply couldn't run and jump the way they had. They were worn out mentally and physically because they played so many tough, challenging games the last few years. Everyone's been gunning for the Lakers and the Celtics. Proof? The way Lebron got down on his knees and thanked the stars at the end of the series the other night. Can you imagine the mental toughness it takes to overcome that? Yet the Cs did it 2 years in a row. It wasn't mental toughness where they came up short - it was physical toughness.

One of the quotes Bob posted above:

"Knowing father time never loses, I think their being able to carry a team day in and out might be over," Ainge said. "But their ability to be contributors to very good basketball teams is still there. we have to surround them with good players if we have any chance of winning a championship next year ... "

It sounds like Danny's saying the same thing. They wore down because of age and minutes.

And now the librarian's saying my time is up.

spike,

Sorry, I can't agree with you at all. Your statement below is completely off-base.

"I just don't buy the argument that one team was in some material way better than another. At that level, skills balance out and the mental part of the game takes over. It's why Bill Russell, a notoriously bad free throw shooter, rarely missed free throws in the fourth quarter and OT. It's a question of will."

Being better is about executing on the court, not out-thinking your opponent. LA clearly lost to a team that was playing better. In game 4 Terry and Peja hit 15 of 16 3 pointers. Dallas executed their offense flawlessly at the end of games. It wasn't that LA played bad defense, but Dallas hit all the important shots that they needed to.

Even the strongest of mental players like Kobe and Garnett are wearing down and can't keep up with LeBron, Rose, Wade, Blake Griffin, etc.