Re: Perk vs. Steamer

by **dbrown4** Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:24 am

Steamer doesn't bring the ball down after a offensive rebound or high entry pass! Nor goes to the free throw line to brick both of them after the ensuing foul. Man, that still chaps my a$$!

Funny thing is Perk is now scoring down there in OKC and rebounding. Something he never really did here consistently. That may be the difference between a young RR and an experienced CP3.

Steamer for some reason reminds me of Dave Cowens. I may be wrong. Gets in there, likes to bang, gets on the floor, etc.

I loved Perk as well and he may be the reason why we are 2 titles short at this point from where we should be. Perk was a lumberer and could lay some lumber if needed. Steamer is all over the place.

As far as financially, Steamer is more the typical Celtic mutual fund style was always seem to search out...GARP Growth At a Reasonable Price. Just ask DA about RR now at $10MM a year. When it went down, everyone thought we paid too much for him because he was still bumbling around throwing passes into the stands. Now whose looking like the genius?

Perk is better where he is. We are worse off trade for trade. Look at what we got...Jeff Green is out and that center dude is off in Italy somewhere. So far we got the shaft there.

Steamer definitely has the better Celtic attitude. "Act like you've been there." Perfect. One more for Steamboat.

by **worcester** Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:45 am

Pete, $mart observation about Steemer's salary. What a $teal. My best to Donna. I can't still taste that juicy hamburger.

by **beat** Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:01 am

I don't know seems many have forgoten we friggin won the whole ball of wax with Perk and nearly won the next 2 to but for the fickle knees of KG and Perk himself

Sorry Steamer is an interesting story now but salary aside, which really to me is outside of the realms of this debate, give me Perk six days and sunday too. Perk was not making top dollar in 08 either.

What have we won with Steamer? Seriously a few regular season games is all.

What have we won with Perk? A championship is all. throw all the stats and stone hand lines, bringing the ball down lines you want, and the Techs to boot, I don't recall that they ever hurt us.

Just is no contest in my book, if we could start next season with either Perk or Steamer, give me the proven commodty, Perk

beat

by **Sam** Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:13 am

Is the tide turning a bit toward Steamer?

There are certainly poss and cons for both of them—sometimes on the same issues. For example:

I miss Perk's picks.
I don't miss Perk's moving picks.

Steamer's hands and rebounding in traffic seemed suspect at first.
Steamer's hands and rebounding in traffic have really improved.

Sam

by **sinus007** Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:23 am

Yes, Team Stiem -ming ahead! cheers

AK

by **bobheckler** Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:18 pm

I don't see Cowen's input but, knowing him, he'd go for Perk. He's a big Perk fan.

Still, that'd make it 8-7 Steamer (with maybe some more results coming in on this, the first ballot).

This is surprising, and I say that as someone who voted for Stiemsma.

As beat pointed out, Perk was a known, proven commodity. As beat pointed out, we actually won a championship with Perk starting. The pain felt on this board when the Perk trade was announced was palpable. And yet, here we are acknowledging the value of a role player over a longtime starter.

Some of that might come from an emotional attachment that has been broken, or at least weakened, with Perk which has allowed us to be more objective in considering his flaws and some of it is credit being given to the surprisingly effective, world-traveled Wisconsin Badger.

Considering Perk is in our past, for better or worse, I can't see how it's bad that the Steamboat, a current Celtic, is doing this well in our poll.

But the playoffs await.

bob

.

by **beat** Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:21 pm

Bob I voted twice!

beat

by **bobheckler** Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:31 pm

beat wrote:Bob I voted twice!

beat

beat,

Where are we? Louisiana?

bob

.

by **swedeinestonia** Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:51 pm

I am not going to try to value either of the two against each other but I think Perkins skill set was very well suited for the 2008 Celtics and the years after, they did not need scoring and all that from him.

Going forward from now on I do not know who is better suited but Perkins was a very good fit for that team.

by **beat** Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:22 pm

bobheckler wrote:
beat wrote:Bob I voted twice!

beat

beat,

Where are we? Louisiana?

bob

.

Chicago in honor of the deceased Mayor Daley whom still casts votes today as many as needed!

by **beat** Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:26 pm

Just another thought from me, seems we are high on Steamer right now, so be it but isn't that a reflection on how well RR PP KG and KB have played the past 3-4 weeks and perhaps not so much Steamer. How you gonna feel when we loose 5 or 6 out of 7 or 8 which hopefully won't happen.

Sort of easy to fly with the hot hand and the way the team is playing right now but if we get swept in the playoffs you all gonna still feel the way you are right now?

I like Steamer but the sample on my plate is to damn small. I want several meals done over a couple seasons not a figgin month.

beat

by **cowens/oldschool** Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:42 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:Perk with Perk we're the baddest team, look how he defends the really BIG bigs out there, Steamer while a very good shotblocker is not the physical enforcer Perk is.....if I'm going at Howard or Lakers I want that Beast in the lane, if KG doesn't go down, then Perk in game 6 the next year we realistically could have had 3 titles. Perks stats were never great, but its all the dirty work, occuppying the biggest mofo on the other team and bangin and pounding him, enabling everyone else to roam and play their games. That starting 5 never lost a playoff series, right now Steamers not even starting.

I love what I'm seeing from Steamer, he can defend, but I still gotta take the Beast

bobby h you missed my post Perk ofcourse

by **Matty** Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:02 pm

and Cow, it was such a nice post too

im sticking with Perk.. he didnt score a lot of points, in his role he didnt have to but he could make your life hell down in the post.

sure he always insisted on that extra bounce after getting the ball, and he got a lot of T's..

the T's were a byproduct of his on court attitude. that attitude is what made him such an effective defender and allowed KG to do whatever he pleased on defense.

lets imagine its round two of the playoffs,,, wade and King Nothing had both just gotten away with hard fouls on rondo and the ref's in their usual love affair called nothing against the heat when it was wade sending Rondo to the floor, and actauly called Rondo for the charge when King Nothing actauly was the person giving the foul.. Coach Spatcula has given the order to be physical on Rondo..

Doc looks at his bench to see who he can send out to provide rondo some protection, who do you want him to see, One of Rondo's best buddies lookin madder than a momma grizzly after someone just hurt its cub in the form of Kendrick Perkins

or Greg "ima shooter" Steimsma

sure Perkins is likley 30 seconds from a technical foul called on him.. but Heat players will take notice and give Rondo a wide berth..

wasnit it game 5 vs atlanta in '08 that Perk levealed Pachulia after the hard foul against Rondo?

Had Perk been around vs the Heat in 2011 whose to say Rondo wouldnt have gotten injured?

by **pete** Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:41 pm

Worcester,

Ill pass it on. lets do it again soon. Perhaps during the finals!

Pete

by **cowens/oldschool** Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:58 pm

Matty wrote:and Cow, it was such a nice post too

im sticking with Perk.. he didnt score a lot of points, in his role he didnt have to but he could make your life hell down in the post.

sure he always insisted on that extra bounce after getting the ball, and he got a lot of T's..

the T's were a byproduct of his on court attitude. that attitude is what made him such an effective defender and allowed KG to do whatever he pleased on defense.

lets imagine its round two of the playoffs,,, wade and King Nothing had both just gotten away with hard fouls on rondo and the ref's in their usual love affair called nothing against the heat when it was wade sending Rondo to the floor, and actauly called Rondo for the charge when King Nothing actauly was the person giving the foul.. Coach Spatcula has given the order to be physical on Rondo..

Doc looks at his bench to see who he can send out to provide rondo some protection, who do you want him to see, One of Rondo's best buddies lookin madder than a momma grizzly after someone just hurt its cub in the form of Kendrick Perkins

or Greg "ima shooter" Steimsma

sure Perkins is likley 30 seconds from a technical foul called on him.. but Heat players will take notice and give Rondo a wide berth..

wasnit it game 5 vs atlanta in '08 that Perk levealed Pachulia after the hard foul against Rondo?

Had Perk been around vs the Heat in 2011 whose to say Rondo wouldnt have gotten injured?

exactly with Perk you want to go to war, you know the other team is glad the refs are there to not let him get too physical, we always had the physical edge with KG manically chirping and chasing and Perk bouncing bodies around, come on Steamer has a knack for blocking shots, but really theres no comparison to how well Perk could anchor that defense and go by himself with no help at the biggest post player allowing everyone else to press/stay on his man. We were always that bad ass physical team, for those years they were together, that was the best defensive 4-5 combo in the league.....alot of teams were really scared to go into that paint against us.

by **cowens/oldschool** Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:47 am

For all my friends/fellow posters that voted for Steamer, you should be ashamed of yourself!!!

by **beat** Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:02 am

Cow

How soon some seem to forget. I good month by this team and alas the second coming.

Perhaps if Perk was in the paint last night knocking a couple asses to the floor they would have thought twice about going in there.

Perhaps maybe he might have fired up the troops a bit. Don't ever see Steamer doing that.

And Steamer fouled a three point shooter 2 seconds after entering the game.

Steamer is doing what he can with limited experience and sure there are things he does well but man to pick him over Perk ???
I scratch my head on that one.

I'm with you 100% on this one

beat

by **cowens/oldschool** Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:27 am

beat I'm not surprised, you know the game, the one guy that shocked me is bobby heckler, if your going against a Howard, a Yao or Bynum, Steamer is gonna get worn out and pushed under the basket, Perk wears out the opposing big and will never waver, he keeps on coming and coming. Steamer gets some good blocks when other wings and guards might go to the rim, those same drivers would be afraid to drive the lane with Perk spreading his frame. Ever walk by a house, once in a while you see one it says 'Beware of Dog' with Perk we didn't need no siqn, players already knew enter at your own risk.

by **beat** Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:51 am

cow

Think a lot of the love for Steamer is the fact the TEAM is/ was (until last eve) been playing so well lately.

With Perk we were playing at this level for almost 3 seasons when we were healthy.

Steamer is a serviceable backup now and we do need him, but now to put him on the cover of the same book as Perk... he should be a footnote on page 10 of that book.

beat

just another thought

if we had both... who would play and who would sit?

by **bobheckler** Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:01 pm

Cow,

Sorry to disappoint you. I'm not hating The Beast, but I'm not looking at him through green-colored glasses anymore neither. When someone's wearing the green, I tend to cut them slack. When they switch unis, that ends. It's just the way I see the world.

beat said "how soon we forget". This is true.

How soon we forget Perk's hands of stone.
How soon we forget Perk's bringing the ball down to bounce it in traffic.
How soon we forget Perk's inability to hit free throws, making him a liability at the end of a game.
How soon we forget his turnovers.
How soon we forget his technicals.
How soon we forget his problematical shoulder (speaking of Steamer's feet).
How soon we forget his inability to contribute to a coherent offense.
How soon we forget his inability to extend the defense with his offense.
How soon we forget his moving picks, guaranteed 1 or 2/game.

Sure, he was a beast. Sure, he'd knock a few people down. Going against Howard and Bynum, he was at his best (Yao is retired, so I don't think we would need him to defend him anymore) but there are a lot more centers that are mobile and have range in the league now. The number of sheer brutes at the center position at this time is a small handful. Bill Russell didn't knock anybody down, and the league was MUCH more physical back then, but players still thought twice about driving into the lane against him. There's more than one way to intimidate a shooter/penetrator than merely knocking him on his keister.

Yes, we were playing at this level when we were healthy for 3 years. That was when we were younger too and had TA and Posey and House and other solid veterans on the bench. Our bench this year is much more trick-or-treat, as are our starters.

btw, here's some box scores from this year:

vs. LAL, 3/29
Perk, 12pts on 5-9, 8rebs, 0asts, 2blks and a T
Bynum, 25pts on 10-15, 13rebs, 4blks (season avg. 18.6ppg, 12.1rpg)

vs. LAL, 2/23
Perk, 3pts on 1-2, 9rebs
Bynum, 14pts on 5-15, 12rebs

vs. ORL, 3/1
Perk, 4pts on 2-4, 11rebs
D12, 33pts on 14-20, 9rebs (season avg. 20.6ppg, 14.5rpg)

vs. CHI @ OKC, 4/1
Perk, 4pts on 2-3, 1reb,
Noah, 6 pts on 1-8, 6rebs

vs IND @ IND, 4/6
Perk, 6pts on 3-6, 7rebs
Hibbert, 21pts on 7-14, 12rebs (season avg. 12.8ppg, 8.8rpg)

vs MIN @ OKC, 3/23 (2OT)
Perk, 12pts on 6-9, 5 rebs
Love, 51pts on 16-27, 14 rebs

vs. SAS @ OKC, 3/23
Perk, 0pts on 0-3, 3rebs
Duncan, 13 pts on 5-16, 15 rebs

vs BOS @ OKC, 2/22
Perk, 8pts on 4-5, 10 rebs, 3 TOs, fouled out, technical foul
KG, 23pts on 8-11, 13 rebs

vs BOS @ BOS, 1/16 (3 weeks into the season, when we sucked)
Perk, 7pts on 3-5, 5 rebs
KG, 12pts on 5-19, 12 rebs, 5 assists

Yes, I know stats aren't everything, but let's not forget so soon that the best Perk was ever expected to do was contain his man and not let his man explode for a big game (which he sometimes did). I can't ever remember Perk actually OUTPLAYING someone.

bob

.

by **cowens/oldschool** Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:32 pm

bob
Buddy I think you lost your basketball mind, imagine how Steamer would do going head to head against those same players? its not like he can create his own shot either as Perk had a jumphook that he could score with even over Howard when given a chance, Steamer has none of that, but I do hope he keeps that outside stroke going. I know Yao has retired, my point in bringing up his name is that he could score on anybody even Shaq and Perk had a few defensive masterpieces against Yao that nobody could replicate. Perk also finished his share of feeds, its not like he blew everyone and alot of those moving picks were a bunch of acting jobs by wimpy con artists too. Our wings got many clear looks thanks to those bone crunching picks, Steamer can't do any of that......hes had a one month good stretch and you want to take him over a guy that gave a whole defense and franchise an identity as a very special bone crunching role player, key piece in a historic defense that is worthy of comparison to some of the best defenses in NBA history? my God you've gone mad, for the sake of mankind stop being such a stat geek, stats deemed Chris Bosh an allstar, thats what a joke stats are my friend.

cow

by **cowens/oldschool** Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:55 pm

bobheckler wrote:Cow,

Sorry to disappoint you. I'm not hating The Beast, but I'm not looking at him through green-colored glasses anymore neither. When someone's wearing the green, I tend to cut them slack. When they switch unis, that ends. It's just the way I see the world.

beat said "how soon we forget". This is true.

How soon we forget Perk's hands of stone.
How soon we forget Perk's bringing the ball down to bounce it in traffic.
How soon we forget Perk's inability to hit free throws, making him a liability at the end of a game.
How soon we forget his turnovers.
How soon we forget his technicals.
How soon we forget his problematical shoulder (speaking of Steamer's feet).
How soon we forget his inability to contribute to a coherent offense.
How soon we forget his inability to extend the defense with his offense.
How soon we forget his moving picks, guaranteed 1 or 2/game.

Sure, he was a beast. Sure, he'd knock a few people down. Going against Howard and Bynum, he was at his best (Yao is retired, so I don't think we would need him to defend him anymore) but there are a lot more centers that are mobile and have range in the league now. The number of sheer brutes at the center position at this time is a small handful. Bill Russell didn't knock anybody down, and the league was MUCH more physical back then, but players still thought twice about driving into the lane against him. There's more than one way to intimidate a shooter/penetrator than merely knocking him on his keister.

Yes, we were playing at this level when we were healthy for 3 years. That was when we were younger too and had TA and Posey and House and other solid veterans on the bench. Our bench this year is much more trick-or-treat, as are our starters.

btw, here's some box scores from this year:

vs. LAL, 3/29
Perk, 12pts on 5-9, 8rebs, 0asts, 2blks and a T
Bynum, 25pts on 10-15, 13rebs, 4blks (season avg. 18.6ppg, 12.1rpg)

vs. LAL, 2/23
Perk, 3pts on 1-2, 9rebs
Bynum, 14pts on 5-15, 12rebs

vs. ORL, 3/1
Perk, 4pts on 2-4, 11rebs
D12, 33pts on 14-20, 9rebs (season avg. 20.6ppg, 14.5rpg)

vs. CHI @ OKC, 4/1
Perk, 4pts on 2-3, 1reb,
Noah, 6 pts on 1-8, 6rebs

vs IND @ IND, 4/6
Perk, 6pts on 3-6, 7rebs
Hibbert, 21pts on 7-14, 12rebs (season avg. 12.8ppg, 8.8rpg)

vs MIN @ OKC, 3/23 (2OT)
Perk, 12pts on 6-9, 5 rebs
Love, 51pts on 16-27, 14 rebs

vs. SAS @ OKC, 3/23
Perk, 0pts on 0-3, 3rebs
Duncan, 13 pts on 5-16, 15 rebs

vs BOS @ OKC, 2/22
Perk, 8pts on 4-5, 10 rebs, 3 TOs, fouled out, technical foul
KG, 23pts on 8-11, 13 rebs

vs BOS @ BOS, 1/16 (3 weeks into the season, when we sucked)
Perk, 7pts on 3-5, 5 rebs
KG, 12pts on 5-19, 12 rebs, 5 assists

Yes, I know stats aren't everything, but let's not forget so soon that the best Perk was ever expected to do was contain his man and not let his man explode for a big game (which he sometimes did). I can't ever remember Perk actually OUTPLAYING someone.

bob

.

bob on looking at the How soon we forget..... I think you went a bit overboard to prove your point, Perk is a great role player but strictly a role player so ofcourse theres things he can't do, but there are things equally that he does do extremely well as a force of nature that a championship team needs to be successful and complete. Look what his teams record is this year,what is it? has he contibuted to that as the starting center? what was his record with us for the last 3 years he was in green? do you see my point?

by **pete** Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:00 pm

Cow & Beat,

You guys are the best!

However, as a former company owner, I always look for the best bang for the buck. So, is Perk better, yup, is Steamer close, at a fraction of the cost, yup, yup & yup. That is where I am coming from. If their salaries were close, there would be no debate, Perk all the way. A bargain is a bargain!!!

Pete

by **Outside** Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:04 pm

Cow,

The key here for me is how the question was presented:

"Suppose, for one reason or another, you could have either Perk or Steamer with the Celtics next season and beyond."

It's about the future and the future direction of the team, not which player would be better on the team now. In my mind, it comes down to two things:

• The known quantity that is Perk versus the potential of Stiemsma. We know what Perk is, and I think he's pretty much plateaued at being a very good player. We've only gotten a glimpse at what Stiemsma can do, and it's not unreasonable to assume he'll improve if he stays and gets major minutes.

• How each player would fit into the presumed direction of the team in future years.

So I look at where they are now:

Team defense - edge to Perk
Individual defense - edge to Perk
Rebounding - same (both are at about 8.5 rebounds per 36 minutes)
Shot blocking - edge to Stiemsma
Scoring - edge to Stiemsma
Screening - edge to Perk
Turnovers - edge to Stiemsma
Chemistry, hustle, grit, intangibles - edge to Perk, but Stiemsma isn't bad
Footspeed, athleticism - edge to Stiemsma
"Clutch" play, ability to perform in the playoffs - edge to Perk, Stiemsma totally unknown

Perk has the obvious advantage on that list, but Stiemsma will only improve and swing that balance in his favor. Remember, the question is about the future, not the present.

We don't know for sure what the future direction of the team will be, but I'm guessing that it will be as a younger, more athletic, fast-breaking group. The impact of the big three, particularly offensively, will decline (perhaps in a big way if Garnett and/or Ray don't re-sign), so a key area will be getting offensive production from everyone. In that situation, Stiemsma is the better fit -- compared to Perk, he's quicker, more athletic, better offensively, and younger (which means potentially productive for more years from this point).

Is it based on huge assumptions? Of course. If Stiemsma is a flash in the pan or wilts in the playoffs, then Perk would be better. But I think my assumptions are reasonable, and based on those assumptions and the fact the question is about the future, not the present, then Stiemsma is the logical choice for me.

Outside

by **beat** Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:32 pm

pete wrote:Cow & Beat,

You guys are the best!

However, as a former company owner, I always look for the best bang for the buck. So, is Perk better, yup, is Steamer close, at a fraction of the cost, yup, yup & yup. That is where I am coming from. If their salaries were close, there would be no debate, Perk all the way. A bargain is a bargain!!!

Pete

Of course it is a factor BUT the question was who would we want next year given the choice of Steamer or Perk, that would imply we had the means to afford either. At least that's the way I look at it.

So cost to me is a non factor in this debate.

2008 WORLD CHAMPS is really the only stat I care to look at in this debate. (and 2 very likely ones after that that slipped away via the injury bug.)

beat

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Suppose, for one reason or another, you could have either Perk or Steamer with the Celtics next season and beyond. You can't have both. Which would you prefer and why? We'll keep this thread going through the playoffs, and changing votes is allowed.