Celtics Roster Now Pretty Much in Focus

sam wrote:Okay, the likelihood is that the 15-man roster will consist of the following, barring a trade or the signing of someone like Dooling instead of Christmas). (Names in parentheses are two-position players.)

C KG, Collins, Wilcox, Melo
PF Bass, Sullinger (Wilcox)
SF Pierce, Green, Joseph
SG Lee, Terry, Bradley, Christmas, Smith
PG Rondo, (Terry), (Christmas)

Nice mix of nine veterans and six young guys. Heavy emphasis on players with strong defensive skills. Up-tempo potential at every position. Good balance between inside, slashing, mid-range and perimeter offense. A healthy presence of high-character guys. Excellent blend of potential mentors and guys just aching to learn. Well above-average collective basketball IQ. Major commitment to the team game.

Strong candidates for the DL: Melo, Smith, and either Christmas or Joseph.

I'm stoked!

Sam

Sam,
Yes, roster looks good.
If they play Smith he'll be in PG position, IMO. At least from what I saw yesterday when they played Bucks.

I wonder if DA keeps an open slot or takes someone for a potential trade during the season?

Also, anyone knows anything about Collins?

AK

swedeinestonia wrote:If I do not remember incorrectly Collins played really good defense on Howard in the playoffs when the Hawks met the Magic a few years ago.

When Atlanta met Orlando in the playoffs two years ago Dwight averaged 27 pts, 15.5 rebs and shot 63%.
His stats would have been higher but Dwight didn't play the 4th quarter of one game due to Orlando having a big lead.

I am perplexed about the Collins signing.
In watching him fill in this year for Horford and Pachulia against the Celtics in the playoffs, I was amazed that he was still in the NBA.
In 4 games against Boston he had more fouls than points or rebounds.
I think Haddidi, Milicic or even Jamaal Maglore have more left in the tank.
An undrafted big guy could offer more than Collins in my opinion.
Normally with guys like these, if they don't work out, you can waive them and pick up someone else.
With Boston almost at the max for salaries, every signing is important.
He will only play in garbage time, so his signing won't really help or hurt the Celtics on the court.

5 - KG, Collins, Melo
4 - Bass, Wilcox (4/5), Sully
3 - Pierce, Green, Joseph
2 - Bradley, Lee, Xmas, Smith (?)
1 - Rondo, Terry

There's 15. Someone's getting cut so that Danny can retain flexibility for a mid-year signing, in case of injuries etc.

bob

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tjmakz wrote:

swedeinestonia wrote:If I do not remember incorrectly Collins played really good defense on Howard in the playoffs when the Hawks met the Magic a few years ago.

When Atlanta met Orlando in the playoffs two years ago Dwight averaged 27 pts, 15.5 rebs and shot 63%.
His stats would have been higher but Dwight didn't play the 4th quarter of one game due to Orlando having a big lead.

I am perplexed about the Collins signing.
In watching him fill in this year for Horford and Pachulia against the Celtics in the playoffs, I was amazed that he was still in the NBA.
In 4 games against Boston he had more fouls than points or rebounds.
I think Haddidi, Milicic or even Jamaal Maglore have more left in the tank.
An undrafted big guy could offer more than Collins in my opinion.
Normally with guys like these, if they don't work out, you can waive them and pick up someone else.
With Boston almost at the max for salaries, every signing is important.
He will only play in garbage time, so his signing won't really help or hurt the Celtics on the court.

TJ,

I disagree. I thought Collins did pretty well in the playoffs this year against us, when Horford was still out. Furthermore he has the advantage of being a veteran. Not only will he learn the system faster but the refs know him and won't call rookie fouls on him. They do on those 3 guys you mentioned.

Haddidi can't get out of his own way. He makes Melo look like an all-star already. Milicic is a human victory cigar and Magloire has nothing left in the tank.

What I do agree with is that he won't see many minutes. He's insurance.

bob

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These line up scenerios do not include Dooling & Pietrus. It would be a mistake not to keep both of those guys.

MD!

MDCelticsFan wrote:These line up scenerios do not include Dooling & Pietrus. It would be a mistake not to keep both of those guys.

MD!

IMO, the only way Smith or Christmas make the team is if Dooling or Pietrus go somewhere else. Each summer we fall in love with the summer-league guys. Last year it was Lasme, Magnum Rolle and some other big guy. The year before it was Sims (or someone else). Each year they don't make it, not with us and not with some other team.

The Stiemsma's of the world are very rare, to not be drafted and finally make a real NBA team. I think his size has something to do with that.

gyso

Sinus,

Actually, i first had Smith in the PG role because I thought he ran the team pretty well during the few chances he got in the Summer League. But, since I saw him listed as a SG in every reference I found, I put him at SG. It wouldn't shock me if (1) he had a shot at PG and (2) he made the most of his opportunity.

MD,

Pietrus could give them more depth at SF, but I believe they need SF who drive and shoot mid-range jumpers rather than hanging out at the arc (where Mickael was very inconsistent this past season); and there's always the lingering question of his health. It would make more sense to keep Dooling than Pietrus because I think Dooling is more of an energy player (at both ends). But, as a PG, he's pretty much a place-holder rather than a difference-maker.

In the preseason and the early part of the regular season, I'd like to see guys like Christmas and Smith get some run at PG just to see if either (or both) could function well with an uptempo bench style.

I know some people will come back with the usual old saw about Doc refusing to give rookies a chance. However, I don't believe that's necessarily true when rookies show Doc enough on the practice floor.

I believe that these young guys have shown more potential already than many past rookies—many of whom were force-fed position they could get comfortable with. Guys like Joseph, Smith and Christmas all strike me as the kinds of players who combine confident, aggressive play with ferocious desire to learn and practice how to fit in with this team. I'm looking forward to monitoring their progress and doing a daily ritual dance to ward off injuries.

Sam

I really don't think they will get Christmas, he has offers overseas for decent money and has said that he is seriously considering these offers.

I have no idea who this Smith is but I bet you he will get a chance to show something and then get traded.

There is no money for Pietrus or Dooling, right?????

Rosalie,

Supposedly the Celtics are trying to sign Christmas. I have no idea at what stage any negotiations might be. But he keeps putting up very solid point totals and (with perhaps a few tips from Rondo, who was on the bench) had six assists in the most recent game.

Sam

Rosalie,
There's money for MP and KD - vet. minimum. I doubt DA will use BAE on them.

AK

Gyso,

Actually, I read (can't recall where) that Sims had an excellent Summer League record for Phoenix. So the book may not be closed on him. It will be interesting to see whether he can make the parent club.

Since it appears that the Celtics roster will stand at 15 when the most recent transactions are finalized, I assume that the only way Pietrus and/or Dooling would be at the Celtics camp would be if they accepted non-roster invitations.

Sam

68. What is a summer contract?

A summer contract is typically used for training camp invites, because the player's salary is not included in team salary until the first day of the regular season. In other words, it is a "make-good" contract -- the player must make the team's opening day roster in order to receive his salary and for his contract to be included in team salary.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q68

76. What roster size limits exist? What is the Inactive List? What is Injured Reserve?

An NBA team can have a maximum of 15 players on its roster during a season. A team must have 12 players on its active roster¹, although they can drop to 11 for up to two weeks at a time. They must suit-up at least eight players for every game. Any remaining players must be on its Inactive List, and are ineligible to play in games. A team must have a minimum of one and a maximum of three players on its Inactive List, although they can drop to zero for up to two weeks at a time, and can temporarily have four (bringing their roster size to 16) with league approval in the event of a hardship. The composition of the Inactive List can change on a game-by-game basis -- no less than 60 minutes prior to tipoff, the team must present to the official scorer a list of the players who will be active for that game. A player can be inactive for as little as one game. While individual teams are only required to carry 13 players, (12 active and one inactive), the NBA also guarantees a league-wide average of at least 14 players per team. The league is surcharged if they do not meet this obligation.

Injured Reserve is the former name of the Inactive List. It was originally intended for players who were injured and unable to play, however teams often used it as a convenient place to stash extra players. While a medical reason was required for players to be put on Injured Reserve, the league did not insist on an independent physician confirming the diagnosis. Thus it was common for a seemingly healthy player to suddenly develop "back spasms" right before rosters were cut to 12 players, and spend the entire season on Injured Reserve as a result. With the 1995 CBA they gave up the ghost, dropped the medical requirement, and changed the designation to "Inactive List." (The cynic will note that marginal NBA players seem to have a lot fewer back spasms nowadays.)

Players assigned to the NBA Developmental League (see question number 78) are automatically placed on their team's Inactive List.

During the offseason a team can have up to 20 players on its roster.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q76

Sam,

I believe that Smith and Christmas have signed "summer contracts", which will get them through to opening day, beyond if they show good during pre-season camp.

As far as the roster size, we can invite 5 more players during the summer, but must pare down to the in-season limit of 15 before opening day of the regular season.

When we read that Dooling and/or Pietrus have signed a contract, we can assume it will not be of the "summer" variety.

gyso

Gyso,

That's an important clarification. So, if both Dooling and Pietrus sign contracts, there will be no room for Christmas or Smith on the 15-man roster unless one or more of the 15 are removed (via trade, release, etc.) from the roster.

A related question would be whether they could add both Dooling and Pietrus, even at the veteran's minimum, without going over the "hard cap." Also, when does the "hard cap" come into play? Just during the season or during the off-season as well?

Sam

Sam,

The Celtics had the hard cap once they used the non-taxpayers MLE on Jason Terry. The term used in that exception, "non-taxpayers", defines its use. It can only be used by teams that are not over the luxury tax level (plus $4mil - The Apron).

This means that for this entire season, the Celtics will be governed by a hard cap of $74.307 million.

If you look at the last roster update on the thread,

https://samcelt.forumotion.net/t3594p40-the-roster-the-luxury-tax-and-the-apron#72605

I used both Dooling and Pietrus as place holders in the roster, using their approximate vet min amount. In that roster, we still do not know what the real numbers are for KG, Green and Bass (the red numbers). I believe KG and Bass already have signed their contracts, so their numbers are fixed. I believe that Green's contract is being held up to see where the entire roster comes in. Once the dust settles, Green's contract will be set up to allow some flexibility (wiggle room) to perhaps add a player using the vet minimum or the BAE during the season, especially at the trade deadline. We can waive or release a player at that time to make room on the roster, but their salary will still be used in the total team salary.

After adding things up as best as we can, we are still under the hard cap by notverymuch.

If either Christmas or Smith replace Dooling or Pietrus in the roster, the new numbers will be much less, probably below $500,000 ($0.5mil). That may be important because as it now sits, we don't have enough leeway to sign a vet minimum player.

Another twist is how much of the vet min contract actually gets paid by the team and how much of it gets paid for by the league. The team only pays the amount determined in the chart for a 2-year veteran. The number for this year is $854,389. I believe that is the number that counts against the cap, so when I used the full amount for Dooling, Pietrus, Wilcox and Collins in my calculations, the actual cap hit is less. The good thing is that with four vet min contracts, the savings add up to close to $2mil.

Here's the link to the minimum salary description:

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q15

When a player has been in the NBA for three or more seasons, and is playing under a one-year, ten-day or rest-of-season contract, the league reimburses the team for part of his salary -- any amount above the minimum salary level for a two-year veteran. For example, in 2011-12 the minimum salary for a two-year veteran is $854,389, so for a ten-year veteran, with a minimum salary of $1,352,181, the league would reimburse the team $497,792. Only the two-year minimum salary is included in the team salary, not the player's full salary. They do this so teams won't shy away from signing older veterans simply because they are more expensive than younger veterans.

gyso

Thanks, gyso. Yes, I read that the amount paid to Collins by the Celtics is the only amount that counts against the cap.

It'll be interesting to see Danny operate. I have great confidence in him.

Sam