POST GAME GOLDEN STATE

Cowen & Mul

How we get better is obtaining a near max super star player for $15M who is 24-26 years of age or 2 very very good players for $8million.

To answer the question of are we getting younger.....yes Cortney Lee, Green, Bradley, Sully.........great.

But we are old in very KEY POSITIONS .......CENTER (KG) AND SMALL FORWARD (PP), and weak in back up center(CW) and power forward (BB).

These positions have to be filled. With PP off the books, you can fill these positions with some nice players for $15M in cap room.

The point being...you have an incomplete team which could be improved to being a contender if you had $15M in cap room.

If PP was coming off the bench for Green at sat $5M per...I can live with that, but PP will not play for that amount, nor come off the bench. KG is still worth the money at $10-$12. He sets up the whole defensive strategy.

112288

To no one in particular,

Personally, I couldn't give a flying fig about next year. I've always been in the moment with the Celtics, as I believe that's the only way to exercise passion, and passion is what has enhanced the good times and has gotten me through the not-so-good times.

I'm not a business novice; in fact, far from it. But I have enough confidence in Danny to make something out of very little. He did it six years ago. He did it this year. I have an agreement with Mr. Ainge. I don't bother him in his job, and he doesn't bother me in mine.

Go Celtics.

Sam

112288
KG doesn't play old and that is more important than years. I have to disagree about getting that much for PP but mebbe u r right. Our current backups are role players and they fill there roles. Role players can always be improved upon but one has to be very careful. As far as competing for a championship, I'm of the opinion that they can compete this year and that is my focus. But at the end of the year I'm sure we will know more and speak it with our passion.
Mulcogi

Mul,

I think the Celtics have some great role players. It will be interesting to see if some of the China connection players can become good role players for the future.

I am sure there is a lot we all do not know regarding the Celtics and salary strategy for the future or maybe they are willing to go way over on the cap. Time will tell and so we just have to sit back and enjoy the ball as it's played right now. Who knows, everyone picked Baltimore over the NY Met's in 1969.

112288

112288

Theres probably 4-5 SF's younger than Pierce at an all star level and we're not gonna get one of them, as they are tied up already and if you know of one of these studs that are gonna be a free agent next year let me know; cause I don't know who that might be and for all the other young developing ones, theres no guarantee that they are ever gonna be as good as Jeff Green right now and I get the feeling Green will be getting better and better in the ensuing years and a big reason for that is learning on the fly from Pierce and KG as his defense has gotten noticeably better too.

I think Danny did the Perk trade because he saw the potential in Jeff Green, guy has speed, shooting stroke, post up ability, can run the floor, now hes gotten the hang of defense and ofcourse he needs to be more consistant and we wish he could grow Pierces balls. Danny figured its harder to find another dynamic 6'9" SF like Green than to find a beastly limited role player like Perk. We have our future SF going forward in Green, finding KG's replacement down the road will be harder. Unless your getting great value in return, and Josh Smith is not it IMHO, you can't just give Pierce away, even draftpicks as we know are crapshoots, do you really want Derrick Williams? we already have a better young player in Sully and better all around player in Jeff Green.

To me, call me a homer, Pierce deserves to retire a Celtic, just like Cousy, Russell, Hondo, Cowens, Bird and McHale, hes entertained me too much through the years, hes not perfect, but he has a will, every game you just know hes coming, hes gonna carry us and he comes through, so many times over and over. I believe in loyalty, just the way I roll.

cow

Cow, ditto!

Dbrown,

Nice to see you back on the board. I've always enjoyed your posts.

I'm sorry you had to endure the strain that accompanies a separation and divorce. However, I'm happy to inform you that I have one great piece of news and one great piece of advice.

The news is that in the vast majority of divorces I've been exposed to (including my own), it gets significantly better after the divorce than it ever was beforehand.

As for dealing with down moments in the interim, that's where the advice comes into play. Now is the time in your life when you have to cut yourself the most slack. As an offset for the difficulties you've been exposed to, you have earned the right to pamper yourself a little. Forget playing the blame game. It usually just prolongs the discomfort.
As for friends, the only criterion you should have to live up to is that you can honestly say to yourself you're doing your best. No one can ask more of you.

I don't know how long you were married, but my divorce came in the 20th year of marriage (and with three kids under age 10 who became my responsibility as a single parent). I then dated but really had no aspirations to fine another lifetime mate; and my kids and I were having a blast! The nights of the week were
named after the food being served—Papa Gino’s night; Kentucky Fried night; B&M-Baked-Beans-with-my-special-secret-ingredient (molasses) night; Prince Spaghetti night; restaurant night; a night I can’t recall; and the pièce de résistance when I went for broke, exhausting my entire cooking repertoire, by throwing frozen mixed vegetables, frozen shrimp, bean sprouts, and soy sauce into my San Francisco wok as we celebrated wok night. Fortunately, school lunches were quite nutritious.

And then (and I believe this was because I wasn't trying too hard) all of a sudden, there she way. Now I can brag about having been married for 54 years as long as I combine the two marriages.

So welcome to the rest of your life. I can guarantee you'll be amazed at how great it will eventually be. (And I'm not given to predictions.) If you ever
want to talk about anything, please let me know: SlipSamCelt@aol.com

All the best,

Sam

Dbrown, I feel you brother, but as Sam writes, it does get better with time. I was so depressed after my ex dumped me that I had to list on paper the things I really enjoyed in life and then commit myself to doing them. One item was how much I'd enjoyed playing baseball as a kid, so I carried a ball around with me at home and the office, would toss it up and catch it, and savor both the feeling of it in my hand and the memories it evoked.

In time I found many, many things I enjoyed, and this bit of advice written by William Makepeace Thackeray (1811-1863) has stayed with me ever since:

"Love is a mighty fine thing, dear Bob, but it is not the life of a man. There are a thousand things for him to think of besides the red lips of Lucy or the bright eyes of Eliza. There is business, there is friendship, there is society, there are taxes, there is ambition and the manly desire to exercise the talents which are given us by heaven, and reap the prize of our desert. There are other books in a man's library besides Ovid, and after dawdling ever so long at a woman's knee, one day he gets up and is free. We have all been there, we have all had the fever; the strongest and the smallest; from Samson, Hercules, Rinaldo downwards: but it burns out and you get well."

Worster/Cowens


That may be fine and true, but don't come bitching when the Celtics are .500 at best unless the cap room is readjusted!

112288

sam wrote:To no one in particular,

Personally, I couldn't give a flying fig about next year. I've always been in the moment with the Celtics, as I believe that's the only way to exercise passion, and passion is what has enhanced the good times and has gotten me through the not-so-good times.

I'm not a business novice; in fact, far from it. But I have enough confidence in Danny to make something out of very little. He did it six years ago. He did it this year. I have an agreement with Mr. Ainge. I don't bother him in his job, and he doesn't bother me in mine.

Go Celtics.

Sam

Sam,, great post. I feel the exact same way.

cowens/oldschool wrote:112288

Theres probably 4-5 SF's younger than Pierce at an all star level and we're not gonna get one of them, as they are tied up already and if you know of one of these studs that are gonna be a free agent next year let me know; cause I don't know who that might be and for all the other young developing ones, theres no guarantee that they are ever gonna be as good as Jeff Green right now and I get the feeling Green will be getting better and better in the ensuing years and a big reason for that is learning on the fly from Pierce and KG as his defense has gotten noticeably better too.

I think Danny did the Perk trade because he saw the potential in Jeff Green, guy has speed, shooting stroke, post up ability, can run the floor, now hes gotten the hang of defense and ofcourse he needs to be more consistant and we wish he could grow Pierces balls. Danny figured its harder to find another dynamic 6'9" SF like Green than to find a beastly limited role player like Perk. We have our future SF going forward in Green, finding KG's replacement down the road will be harder. Unless your getting great value in return, and Josh Smith is not it IMHO, you can't just give Pierce away, even draftpicks as we know are crapshoots, do you really want Derrick Williams? we already have a better young player in Sully and better all around player in Jeff Green.

To me, call me a homer, Pierce deserves to retire a Celtic, just like Cousy, Russell, Hondo, Cowens, Bird and McHale, hes entertained me too much through the years, hes not perfect, but he has a will, every game you just know hes coming, hes gonna carry us and he comes through, so many times over and over. I believe in loyalty, just the way I roll.

cow

Cow another very good post. Its not like quality young studs that play SF and Center are waiting to come to boston. No matter how much cap money we have.

You get them by stock piling ASSSET'S and making trades AND SIGNING free agents like the class of 2013.....

Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, kevin Martin, Carl Landry, Nikola Pekovic, Monta Ellis, OJ Mayo,Ty Evans, Paul Milsap, Big Al Jefferson, David West, Andrew Bynam, Josh Smith,

112288

112288 wrote:You get them by stock piling ASSSET'S and making trades AND SIGNING free agents like the class of 2013.....

Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, kevin Martin, Carl Landry, Nikola Pekovic, Monta Ellis, OJ Mayo,Ty Evans, Paul Milsap, Big Al Jefferson, David West, Andrew Bynam, Josh Smith,

112288

Kevin Martin? Carl Landry? Pekovic- maybe, Monta Ellis ? Bynum is damaged good, Josh Smith- vastly overrated, David West- fair player, OJ Mayo? There are only a couple players on this list worth pursuing. While I would like some of these players on my team, I don't see the need to break up our team now to get them. As far as free agent signings, not many want to come to Boston anyway. Jefferson might come back, but I wouldn't bank on it, and he is not a game changer either. (and he was my 2nd favorite player on the C's) OK each to their own opinion. We all have them.

Tardust,

I'm interested in why you say that not many free agents want to come to Boston. Danny signed a significant number of good free agents this year, and he was severely restricted in what he could pay.

Being a contender, having Doc coach you, having Rondo distribute the ball to you,and the presence of veterans like KG and Pierce trump weather concerns in the majority of cases. When Crawford made those quotes about what it means on your resume to be a Celtic, that was significant—coming from a guy with a "me first" reputation. (I know he came in trade, but his words were symptomatic of the esteem in which the Celtics "brand" is held around the league.)

I realize that things can change, and the team did have a two-decade period when the appeal of the Celtics hit a low ebb. But I don't sense any widespread desire to avoid the Celtics at this point. Hopefully, the combination of Danny and Doc will continue to work their magic.

As for Jefferson, he's such a poor defender (ranking statistically among the poorest at his position) that I'm not sure the Celtics' signature dependence on defense would warrant going after him.

What concerns me about free agents far more than a lack of interest in the Celtics is the frequency with which health issues and/or mileage on the tires can reduce their effectiveness by the time they become available (often at bloated prices). Pietrus was a prime example, although he was worth keeping around just for his infectious sense of humor.

Sam

tardust wrote:

112288 wrote:You get them by stock piling ASSSET'S and making trades AND SIGNING free agents like the class of 2013.....

Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, kevin Martin, Carl Landry, Nikola Pekovic, Monta Ellis, OJ Mayo,Ty Evans, Paul Milsap, Big Al Jefferson, David West, Andrew Bynam, Josh Smith,

112288

Kevin Martin? Carl Landry? Pekovic- maybe, Monta Ellis ? Bynum is damaged good, Josh Smith- vastly overrated, David West- fair player, OJ Mayo? There are only a couple players on this list worth pursuing. While I would like some of these players on my team, I don't see the need to break up our team now to get them. As far as free agent signings, not many want to come to Boston anyway. Jefferson might come back, but I wouldn't bank on it, and he is not a game changer either. (and he was my 2nd favorite player on the C's) OK each to their own opinion. We all have them.

The only 2 players on this list worthy of getting in return for a KG or Pierce is Paul and Howard, I want to see how far Paul can take his team in the playoffs as he has durability issues already, as does Howard. Paul has an owner that is catering to him even on personel issues, we really don't have a shot at him. Howard may not want to resign with such an aging roster and strategy issues with his coach and their best player whos not going anywhere. If we could really get Howard and had to clear cap room, I would amniesty Pierce, so until that happens we might as well keep him.

Sam,
Sorry it took so long to reply. I guess just by past years. What top free agents have we picked up in the last 10 years? I could be wrong here but I think David West shunned us, I believe Doc pursued Grant Hill in the past, did OJ Mayo hold up the Allen trade, not sure but seems like I read it somewhere. These are just middle of the road players.
I know we got Shaq and JO, both very much on a downward spiral in their careers, but can't think of anyone else that amounted to much that came there. I think the discussion was about removing PP and getting a adequate replacement. I really can't think of any top tier FA's that have ever chose Boston. Of course I am prone to forget things.

Tardust,

I think Mayo's team nixed the Celtics rather than Mayo doing so. The Celtics pursued West in a sign-and-trade deal involving New Orleans and a third team, but they couldn't get any third team to take on Jermaine O'Neal's salary. West opted to sign as a free agent with the Pacers, but Boston wasn't really a competitor in free agency. Besides, if it had come down to free agency with either Boston or Indianapolis, have you ever been to Indianapolis?

The years from 2002-03 to 2012-13 can be divided roughly into three time periods:

(1) A couple of years when the team wasn't very good, had a lot of cap space invested in Paul Pierce and dead wood such as Mark Blount, Raef LaFrentz, Vin Baker and Antoine Walker, and had little-or-no cap space to invest in top free agents

(2) A couple of years when the Celtics were lousy enough to have decent draft position and Danny was stockpiling young talent (which later was transformed into KG and Ray Allen) rather than trying to attract top free agents. Danny did well in both the first and second draft rounds, and he also traded for Rondo out of the draft.

(2) Six years when the Three Amigos and key support players have cost enough so that the Celtics couldn't go after top free agents for cap reasons.

Actually, when Blount was re-signed by Danny, he was considered a major catch who was coming off a fine season. I believe he almost signed with Philly (or some other team) but ultimately decided to re-sign with the Celtics. In retrospect, he turned out to be not a great catch but a small minnow; but that was not foreseen at the time. Also, it was considered quite a coup when the Celtics signed Gary Payton, although he proved to be over the hill.

My own opinion is that free agency is only the third best method of adding really top players. In the first place, a team has to free up substantial amounts of cap space in order to be able to afford to add a max contract. In the second place, if a top player comes cheaply enough to be afforded, there's almost always some baggage that comes with him (often health and/or age concerns). Just ask Philadelphia and Bynum about that.

The second best method involves growing your own players. But you have to string together a few rotten seasons and have a high percentage of draft luck to pull that off. Largely by superb drafting (including 2nd round choices), Danny managed to collect a nice cadre of young players with potential They were nowhere near contention level, but they showed enough promise to be packaged for KG and Ray. Home-grown excellence takes too much time for the patience of Celtics fans. Remember all the "Fire Doc and Danny" mantras around 2004-06?

That leaves trading as the best method of procuring truly great players who are in their prime. Obviously, Danny hit paydirt with KG and Ray by strip-mining his young contingent but being able to retain Pierce (who re-signed as a free agent, by the way). At least when you're trading, you're presumably exchanging value for value, which
means staying under the luxury tax is usually less of a problem. Of course, there are all sorts of restrictions on trades, and coming up with an attractive package without giving away any of your own studs is difficult.

This is just a long-winded way of saying that, in the past decade, I'm not familiar with any situations in which the Celtics have gone after truly top players in their prime via the free agency route; and the reason has usually been financial in nature. The closest situation involved trades for KG and Ray, in which both of those players had the choice of whether or not to come to Boston. We know what their decisions were. And three assets the Celtics currently have in any free agent quest involve the coaching presence of Doc, the ball distribution abilities of Rondo, and the winning tradition and prestige of becoming a Celtic.

Sam

Many times in free agency, the best thing a team can do is to resign their own players. For some reason - people only give a team credit for bringing in "new" stars - but over the last 5 years - the Celtics and Danny Ainge have consistenly locked up their own players first, which is a big part of the reason this team was one of the last 8 teams in the NBA for each of the last 5 seasons.

First and foremost, Kevin Garnett was a very sought after free agent who decided to say here in Boston.

Some others include:

-Jeff Green (who was a free agent at the end of last season as well)
-Jason Terry
-Courtney Lee
-James Posey
-Eddie House

Guess since there hasnt been a big splash since 2007-08, people forget its the little deals that add up.

I agree with Sam and MrKleen's assessment.

Free agency is the riskiest way to acquire top players from other teams. Like Sam points out, those players can be on a downward career arc or have injury issues, and signing one often means burdening a team with a bloated contract that isn't justified considering the risk. Look at the top 10 salaries for this season:

1. Kobe $27.8 million
2. Brandon Roy $21.5 million
3. Dirk $20.9 million
4. Gilbert Arenas $20.8 million
5. Amare Stoudemire $19.9 million
6. Joe Johnson $19.8 million
7. Carmelo $19.5 million
8. Dwight $19.2 million
9. Pau $19 million
10. Elton Brand $18.2 million

How many on that list justify their salary? That's a frightening list for a GM. The next group is much more solid in terms of value but still has names that give you pause, like Andrew Bynum ($16.5 million), Rashard Lewis ($15 million), and Baron Davis ($14.9 million).

Like MrKleen points out, re-signing one of your own free agents doesn't "feel" like a free agent signing, but it is, and in addition to getting a known quantity who already knows your system, you often get those players at a hometown discount. This past offseason, all the hubbub was about not re-signing Ray Allen, but the Celtics re-signed Garnett (3 seasons at $12 million per season), Bass (three seasons - $6.7 million), Green (3 seasons - $8.7 million), and Wilcox (1 year - $1.3 million). That's four important players, including the anchor of the team, and up-and-coming star, and two rotation players, for $28.7 million per season.

The one thing I'll add is that I do think free agency can be a good way to acquire role players who were previously with other teams, and quality role players can be just as important to a team's success as so-called stars.

This past offseason, the Celtics signed "new" free agents Leandro Barbosa ($1.2 million), Jason Collins ($1.4 million), Courtney Lee ($5 million), Darko Milicic (wound up costing $181,000), and Jason Terry ($5 million). Darko was a wash, Terry has been a mixed bag, but the other three were solid pickups and very good bang for the buck.

Free agent role players were key to the 2007-08 championship. There is risk there too, as shown by both O'Neals, but it is a lower level of risk compared to high-priced stars.

Overall, I think the Celtics have done very well on the free-agent market.

Outside, thanks for adding the "role player" factor. I should have emphasized that my ranking of sources of players was primarily for in the cases of top stars.

Sam

Really interesting thread, those big names are such big busts that just set the franchise back once you own them. Roy, Arenas, Brand, Bynum are you kidding me? and Johnson and Stoudemire are no bargains either. I have a feeling guys like Big Al and Josh Smith are not gonna see near max deals this year.

Heat made great impact with Battier and Ray Allen, as signing impact role players is the way to go and the only way to go. Kind of glad we didn't do the KG for Bledsoe and Andre Jordan trade as Jordans contract is huge and we have to lock up Sully and AB in a few years.

Baron Davis ($14.9 million)... imagine that anchor on our cap space. Shades of Vin Baker. Sure glad Danny is our GM now.

damn fockin Riley is good, Chris Birdman was also a great pick up, surprised Danny didn't sign the guy first....well Red passed on Willis Reed.