Writing is on the wall, its time

any doubt its time to rebuild?

No doubt. Does it include Danny? Just curious.

i'm not sure about rebuilding,

I think Sam put it, its not that Rondo gone is best for us, but maybe that Rondo needs to adjust his game to reflect something similer to some of the playing shortly after us losing Rondo.

That and we got a very good team now, We got two very nice young vets in Rondo/Green and two more excelent players still on rook contracts- Sully and Bradley

We got to mature vets with a lot left in the tank, but able to bring it to the table in shorter and less freqnnt spurts.

Rebuild?

I dont think its needed, I'm of the opionion that with all those seconds we have over the next few yrs, a 16th pick this yr and a few other movable peices that a trade or two could get us back where we need to be, We've got to get a all star quality Big though to make it work, a healthy, all star guy, and to keep the above metionend players is gonna cost us some picks..

I'm all for spending those picks to get somethign done however..

Just listened to the Red interveiw from Steve and Red had some negativ thoughts about the words "if" in regards to sports, but injuries did us in this season, IF Bradey had been availible all season, IF Rondo had not went down and IF Sully had been able to play all yr, we'd had a much better record and the playoff season would be much better right now.

spend however many picks it takes and make a deal to land us a big name Big and IF healthy next season, i think we can have serios talks about chasing #18 once more next yr,

Matty,

I think Rondo is the centerpiece. Adding Bradley does make for a nice backcourt and Green looks like a keeper at small forward. Sullinger is a good start to the bench so I'll agree we've got some players to hang on to.

I think that what might surprise us, however, is that no adjustment will be needed by Rondo. He filled the role as was needed and asked of him at the time. If anything I suspect we'll end up building an offense that allows him to be more of a scorer.

You're certainly right that we will need to add bigs to the mix. Maybe we can find someone through the draft that can develop fairly quickly. Not much big time potential this year, but a few big forwards that look NBA ready. Perhaps someone else or a couple of role players for depth can be brought in by dangling anyone not named Rondo, Green, Bradley or Sullinger out there to see if there's any interest in some combination.

I think Pierce's contract is favorable to work on moving and my guess is KG is ready to hang it up, so there could be room on the floor, if we can make room on the books. It just may be a heck of a hunt to find the type of player we need to compliment what we have to build around.

Regards

A lot depends on KG. This has to be a tough year for him, and Jackie Mac said recently that she thinks KG is significantly affected by another bone spur (in his ankle, I think).

The problem, if you can call it that, is that the Celtics have been competitive in the past few years and could point to health issues as keeping them from getting to the finals, so that makes it reasonable to keep the core and try to add pieces on the fly with the hope that things will fall in your favor and you can contend for a title. With Rondo, Sullinger, and Barbosa going down, I suppose you can still make that argument, but getting thumped in the first round is a serious dose of reality.

Tough decisions ahead on several fronts.

Doc, Danny, and Wyc's time has past like this version of the Celtics has passed, not thankfully like my last case of gas. Celtics are now run by a recycled version of a combination of the Bowery Boys, Leo Gorcey, Huntz Hall & Gabe Dell, or the 3 Stooges. Celtics need to be sold to someone with deep pockets willing to go much deeper into the luxury tax zip code. Too bad Oprah, or Bill Gates isn't interested. This franchise will be down so far for so long, the bottom will look like up. I'm 61 and I'll be dead 20 years before any imptovement is made. The NBA in its' current form is dead to me.

MD!

The Celtics as they are currently constituted cannot win a 7 game series, but much of what has come to light in this series is enlightening to me - and not something I saw before the Knicks forced these issues to come to a head.

-KG is either very injured and he wont admit it, or he has lost more than a step and can no longer compete at the level he is accustomed to. Probably both. I think he retires this summer.

-Pierce cannot carry this team any longer and he has lost more than a step in the last few months. If he restructures his deal and his expectations, he could come in off the bench and add some scoring - but his days as the go to guy are over.

-Jeff Green needs Pierce to accept the reduced role I mentioned above to really shine. He is an amazing talent and the only time his agression wains - is when Pierce is at the top of the key, calling for the ball. When Jeff is the primary option and feels like he can miss 4 or 5 shots and keep getting his number called, he will truly become the All Star level player he is.

-AB is a good complimentary player, but anyone who thinks he is in the same ballpark as Rondo is not very observant. He clearly hit the wall from a stamina standpoint - right at the worst possible time of year. Felton (who is a mediocre PG at best), is beating him like a drum in this series. I think a well rested 100% healthy AB does a much better job that he is doing. For now, he is young, talented and a key part of this team long term.

-Jordan Crawford is a guy that can be a good player here, if Doc cares to make him such. He needs plays run for him, or at least screens like Ray used to get - and we need to make him feel like he is part of the offense more than getting the ball dropped in his lap with 4 seconds on the shot clock.

-Rondo is the key to this team and Sullinger will be a good 7th man.

-Bass and Lee are decent bench players and I like their heart and desire. They make small salaries, play hard and fill a need. I think if they both understand they will play a lot one night, and not at all another - they they can stay.

-People like Randolph, Melo and Williams should be invited back to camp to fight for a position, the rest can hit the bricks.

Not sure why many out here want to BLAME someone. Age happens. Injuries happen. DA and Doc are still in the top 5 in the NBA, and the Celtics ownership is amongst the best.

They can turn this around in a few years - you will see another great team here in Boston MD. Count on it.

Nrkleen,

Good post. At some point you may want to expand your thoughts to conjecture about who stays and which of the remainder truly have the appeal to make them genuinely valuable trading chips.

Typically, people just list the players they most dislike as viable trading chips without considering that, if they don't want those players, they probably have relatively little value on the trading market.

Perhaps Bradley's regression this season is at least partly due to the residual effects of his injuries. However, more and more, I'm wondering whether his defensive skills (which i think also declined this season) offset the fact that he's often more of a liability than an asset on offense. I'm all right with specialists, but not necessarily when they're uni-dimensional; and he comes dangerously close to being uni-dimensional. Simply put, does the value of his defensive skills (which I believe have at least leveled off) outweigh the value of what he might bring in trade? Especially when so much of his defensive success depends on a high level of athleticism that becomes harder to maintain over the passage of time.

In fact, the same question could be applied to any current Celtic: Is the value of what they represent for the Celtics greater than the value they can represent TO OTHER TEAMS in trade?

Sam

MrKleen,

In my opinion you are 100% on the money from top to bottom.

Regards

If Green needs Pierce to defer to him then Green is never going to be a all star. He has to take the mantle and run with it. There is nothing wrong with PP and JG both being scorers on this team. KG being our ONLY big man exposes him and too much is layed on him. DA has to get a big man to help out and they need to be BIG.

The main problem with this team is we have the worst guards of anyone in the playoffs. None of them penetrate and dish the ball. Terry is the only one that can score and he hasn't done it much until today. JG and PP don't need to be handling the ball so much. Rondo will help but it won't be enough. We need 2 guards that attack and are a threat to make something happen. I don't want to go back to watching RR pound the ball all game long. Bradley has been getting abused on one end and does absolutely nothing on the other end. The guards are the difference in this series. No question.

tardust wrote:If Green needs Pierce to defer to him then Green is never going to be a all star. He has to take the mantle and run with it. There is nothing wrong with PP and JG both being scorers on this team.

Paul Pierce has dominated the ball on this team for 15 years. He needs to get to the point where he understands his role is diminished and Jeff Green is the go to guy. If the two of them are on the court together - the only time Green takes over is on full court drives to the hoop. When the game slows down and bogs down, down the stretch in a close game - Green defers to Pierce BY DESIGN. It has nothing to do with him taking the mantle and running - it is the play calling by Doc and the rest of the Celtics - deferring to Pierce as they have for decades.'

This can only change when Pierce (and Doc) agree that Green is the go to guy, or at least they share the ball equally. I hope all the parties involved sit down in the off season and realize that the passing of the torch needs to happen - not as a 100% thing, as I think Pierce still has a lot to offer - and Green isnt quite up to taking over the bulk of the scoring every night yet.

I believe this organizational change in the passing of the torch needs to happen in more than one place. For example, if Crawford and Williams are going to be expected to make an impact in big games in the playoffs, they need more trust placed in them all season long. Doc needs to let them play 25 min a game, game in and game out - and take their mistakes and missed shots as an investment in the future. The Celtics might need to take a small step back, in order to contend again in a year or two.

Tardust,

Yesterday gave a little inkling of the kinds of dynamics I had hoped would occur during the final four weeks of the regular season. Although I wouldn't have wished for night after night of overtime games, it would have represented a series of major glimmers to see so many players gravitating to roles that were (1) essential to team success and (2) well within their capacities to perform consistently:

• Bass performing even better in defending Carmelo than in defending LeBron last season

• Terry emerging as a dynamic sixth man, especially under pressure in the clutch

• Green becoming increasingly aggressive and consistent in assuming an offensive leadership role on the team

• KG and Pierce contributing in major ways without having to be over-burdened as the only "go to" guys

• Williams demonstrating that, with increased minutes and responsibilities over time, there could be a potential role for someone on the team who is over-sized rather than under-sized for his position

At a time when it's so tempting to focus on what's been wrong this season, it's refreshing to be able to identify some positive signs that are coming to light under the supreme test of playoff basketball.

It's true that, notwithstanding these positive signs, the severity of problem areas was also showcased: the widespread ball-handling problems; the scarcity of impact bigs over the height of 6' 10"; etc. But, on an afternoon that could have marked their going out with barely a whimper, it was very encouraging to note that the heart on this team is still beating strongly. It was almost as though Rosalie were personally inspiring them.

Go Celtics!

Sam

mrkleen09 wrote:

tardust wrote:If Green needs Pierce to defer to him then Green is never going to be a all star. He has to take the mantle and run with it. There is nothing wrong with PP and JG both being scorers on this team.

Paul Pierce has dominated the ball on this team for 15 years. He needs to get to the point where he understands his role is diminished and Jeff Green is the go to guy. If the two of them are on the court together - the only time Green takes over is on full court drives to the hoop. When the game slows down and bogs down, down the stretch in a close game - Green defers to Pierce BY DESIGN. It has nothing to do with him taking the mantle and running - it is the play calling by Doc and the rest of the Celtics - deferring to Pierce as they have for decades.'

This can only change when Pierce (and Doc) agree that Green is the go to guy, or at least they share the ball equally. I hope all the parties involved sit down in the off season and realize that the passing of the torch needs to happen - not as a 100% thing, as I think Pierce still has a lot to offer - and Green isnt quite up to taking over the bulk of the scoring every night yet.

I believe this organizational change in the passing of the torch needs to happen in more than one place. For example, if Crawford and Williams are going to be expected to make an impact in big games in the playoffs, they need more trust placed in them all season long. Doc needs to let them play 25 min a game, game in and game out - and take their mistakes and missed shots as an investment in the future. The Celtics might need to take a small step back, in order to contend again in a year or two.

I disagree 100%. It is not by design that when other people get the ball they don't do anything with it and the ball ends up in PP hands at the end of the shot clock. Do you know how many times JG passes up a open shot and gives the ball up? That has nothing to do with Pierce. That is JG needing to step up to the plate. Pierce has shown time and again that he will pass the ball to a open man. He wants to win - period. As I stated there is nothing wrong with both guys giving us scoring. It has nothing to do with the go to guy. Yes Doc calls the end of games plays and he calls PP number. So you think Pierce should say "Hey Doc, I need to take a back seat here to Jeff, give him the ball?" Did you give PP the so called "role" you are referring to? I think Doc designates who does what. I have no problem with JG being more assertive and hope he does, but PP isn't the one slowing him down. Like I said he has to take that responsibility and run with it. NBA players don't give other players status on teams.

Couple of things that I can see as even being debatable here.

1) The majority of the plays the Celtics call are for Paul Pierce. It has been that way for over a decade.

2) When the play breaks down or when the game is on the line, Paul Pierce goes to the top of the key or the wing and calls for the ball. It has been that way for over a decade.

3) Jeff Green is not Paul Pierce and he clearly he needs the floor to be spaced, so he has a clear path to drive past his man, one on one to be most effective. You cannot have Paul Pierce calling for the ball and Jeff Green looking for open space....those two things cannot happen at the same time.

Over the course of this season, every time Jeff Green has had a big game - he has done so by taking the ball early in the shot clock, breaking his man down and driving to the hoop. Again, he is not Paul Pierce and needs to score in a different manner than Pierce.

Green is not good a slow down Iso ball....Paul Pierce is no longer good at up and down, transition ball. There is room for both in a diverse offense. But anyone that watches the game can see the Paul Pierce spends far too much time handling the ball - over dribbling and during those periods, the offense in general and for Jeff Green in particular grinds to a halt.

If Jeff Green really is the future of the Celtics - Doc and the team need to make him the focal point of the offense starting this summer in training camp. That doesnt mean there isnt a spot for PP - but that means his role changes, or he needs to find a new place to play.

It has EVERYTHING to do with the go to guy. Every successful team in the NBA has a primary scorer who gets most of the plays run for him. For years it has been Pierce. It needs to become Jeff Green. Period.

Thoughts about some of the posts:
Cowens: Yes, I have many doubts

Matty: for a married guy you hit the nail on the head. we do have the core pieces needed for a run at the title, what is needed is a better job by Danny in not trading or signing people who can no longer do the job. Sure, it's all a gamble, and hindsight is 20/20 but as good as he is in most aspects of being the GM, he does have room for improvement.

NYCelt:
Rondo is the center piece and he need make only those adjustments necessary for the flow of the game to take the course they want. We really are in no position to get a big through the draft unless we trade and that would give up too much for an untested rookie whom Doc would probably not play anyway. Danny will once again go the route of finding a FA or making a trade for an established big. This will be very hard to do. Not sure why you feel KG is ready to hang it up unless he really is seriously injured. Has there been any confirmation on injury and if that would affect next season? (Outside?)

MrKleen: Are you saying that the team currently playing couldn't win a seven game series or that if Rondo and Sully and Blur were still playing they wouldn't? I would agree with the first at this point not the second. Plus, I'm still holding out for an advance this season. Just about everything else is spot on and very well said.

Sam: excellent point about how to view things like this. It would probably help reality if people would first put themselves into the head of the other GM and see it from their perspective. The only thing harder than finding a pg with the right mentality and skill set is finding a good big who is somehow available and affordable. I think too much was placed on AB's shoulders. He is a shooting guard and when he plays with Rondo he gets his shot but most importantly, he has the energy to play the kind of D that is needed. dboss probably said it better but I'm in agreement.

As Mr Kleen said, the go to guy is crucial to the success of any NBA team. It certainly seems that JG could be that person, but don't rule out one somewhat petulant pg. He has shown improvement every year and when things are on the line he has also demonstrated that he can take over the game offensively and defensively as he did in the playoffs last year. These two are the core for the future. We just don't have other players who can be that dominant Let's hope that DA will address this in the offseason.

With healthy but aging stars like PP and KG, the time will come when they need to take a back seat and come off the bench for the good of the team.
I think that it will be time next season for Paul to assume this new role of leadership. I think KG might still have one more year of starting. I don't see him retiring unless he really can't play anymore (and who walks away from 20+ million dollars?) and from what I have seen this season that just isn't the case. But the real point is, of course, can legitimate and actually better players be brought in to replace them in the starting lineup?

mulcogiseng wrote:

MrKleen: Are you saying that the team currently playing couldn't win a seven game series or that if Rondo and Sully and Blur were still playing they wouldn't? I would agree with the first at this point not the second. Plus, I'm still holding out for an advance this season. Just about everything else is spot on and very well said.

I think with Rondo / Sully and Barbosa, they are right there with the Knicks in this series and probably make it to the ECF. But without a presence down low to rebound and protect the basket, I dont see them beating the Heat. But to your point, they would be at least in the conversation without all these major injuries.

I want to see how this series plays out, then I will make full assessment. KG is actually outplaying both Tyson Chandler and K Mart, his offense has not been near stellar, but he is doing alot of good little things despite limited mobility.

mrkleen09 wrote:Couple of things that I can see as even being debatable here.

1) The majority of the plays the Celtics call are for Paul Pierce. It has been that way for over a decade. (agreed, talk to Doc, don't blame PP)

2) When the play breaks down or when the game is on the line, Paul Pierce goes to the top of the key or the wing and calls for the ball. It has been that way for over a decade. So when a play breaks down, PP should just make himself unavailable? Sure that would work. What NBA player worth his salt doesn't call for the ball? Yes its been that way for a decade, not sure the point, especially since we have a relatively new team.

3) Jeff Green is not Paul Pierce and he clearly he needs the floor to be spaced, so he has a clear path to drive past his man, one on one to be most effective. You cannot have Paul Pierce calling for the ball and Jeff Green looking for open space....those two things cannot happen at the same time. Maybe Doc should just tell Pierce, "don't put yourself in position for the ball when things bog down because you will limit Jeff. Also Paul do not under any circumstance call for the ball, you are slowing down Jeffs growing up. This is really funny. I have never heard that a player should not call for the ball.

Over the course of this season, every time Jeff Green has had a big game - he has done so by taking the ball early in the shot clock, breaking his man down and driving to the hoop. Again, he is not Paul Pierce and needs to score in a different manner than Pierce.

Green is not good a slow down Iso ball....Paul Pierce is no longer good at up and down, transition ball. There is room for both in a diverse offense. But anyone that watches the game can see the Paul Pierce spends far too much time handling the ball - over dribbling and during those periods, the offense in general and for Jeff Green in particular grinds to a halt. Now tell me who should be handling it? Anyone that watches the games knows how bad our guard play is. So bad that at times we start one guard. Its not because we are so strong somewhere else. We saw how the offense grinded to halt when Pierce missed the games against the Bobcats and a couple other horrible teams, when there was still something to play for.

If Jeff Green really is the future of the Celtics - Doc and the team need to make him the focal point of the offense starting this summer in training camp. That doesnt mean there isnt a spot for PP - but that means his role changes, or he needs to find a new place to play. I have no problem with having Jeff as the so called focal point. Problem is does Jeff have what it takes to be the "alpha dog". From what I have seen he doesn't. Just a above average player. They can trade PP for all I care if we get something in return. This just seems like another "lets blame PP for whats going on" This BTW has been going on for years as well.

It has EVERYTHING to do with the go to guy. Every successful team in the NBA has a primary scorer who gets most of the plays run for him. For years it has been Pierce. It needs to become Jeff Green. Period.

The go to guy is not given it is earned. Paul took it from Walker. There was no discussion and no one said, "Walker, don't raise your hand wanting the ball". Paul had that alpha dog in him and thats why you have seen it for years. End of discussion

Again I have no problem with Jeff as the go to guy. If we think he is all of a sudden going to be PP, Lebron, Wade, and on and on, we are going to be very sad IMO. Go to guys are not made, they show up. Period.

One final note- anyone watching these games and the season can plainly see that the reasons we lose are
1. Lack of playing big men - clearly only KG is trusted. (i am talking about BIG men)
2. Lack of guards- clearly this is a weak spot. Has been all year. Terry not as good as I thought he would be, Bradley one dimensional and that one dimension has been getting abused lately, Lee- never found any type of rythm. Rondo- only real threat we had and he was limited and had his own warts. Crawford- what you see is what you get.

The point is Jeff and Paul aren't the problems here, its lack of producing big men and possibly the worst set of guards in the NBA. Yet we choose to place the blame on one of the two players that does produce. See what happened to Durant without Westbrook? He still scores but had 7 turnovers. He also had a pt guard play that produced 30 pts. It pretty clear to me what the team problems are. Period.

Mulcogi,

On KG being ready to retire; pure speculation on my part.

Regards