Doc Thinks Perk-Green Trade a Mistake

Ok, let's start a fight between Cowens and MrKleen.  LOL.


http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2013/09/doc_rivers_didnt_want_paul_pie.html



A lot of people in Boston didn't want to see Paul Pierce go.

Among them: former Boston Celtics coach Doc Rivers, who coached Pierce for the small forward's last nine years with the team.

“I didn’t want Paul to go, even though I knew it was coming,” Rivers told WEEI Wednesday at the TD Garden, where he hosted the Hoops Dreams charity event for ABCD. “That was a tough one for me. Even when I was here and it was being talked about — my thing is, Kobe (Bryant) is going to end up being a Laker for life. Dirk (Nowitzki) is going to be a Maverick. That’s the one thing that, if we didn’t do right, that was the one right thing we didn’t do for Paul.”

Barring a return to Boston at a later date (he's a free agent after this season, after all), Pierce finished his 15-year Celtics career as the second-leading scorer in franchise history. He was named the finals MVP in 2008, hit dozens of memorable shots, matured into somebody the city loved to root for, and yeah, the TD Garden will flow with tears when he and Kevin Garnett return with the Brooklyn Nets.

But that's looking forward. Rivers mostly looked backward Wednesday, reminiscing about his Boston tenure. Perhaps most interestingly, he called the Kendrick Perkins-Jeff Green trade a mistake. The Celtics sent Perkins and Nate Robinson to the Oklahoma City Thunder for Green, Nenad Krstic and a 2012 first-round draft pick (Fab Melo!) at the 2011 trade deadline.

“I think so,” reflected Rivers, “because we needed the toughness. The one thing we did by losing Perk was we removed Kevin’s protector. I didn’t think it was a coincidence that, after Perk left, that Kevin got into all those little flicks with the other teams. Perk deflected all that.”
I won't bore you with much discussion about the Perkins trade because it happened two years ago and you're probably sick of it by now, but Perkins has regressed since his Celtics days and Green began to blossom last season. I concede Rivers' point that the 2011 Celtics were better off with Perkins, but it's better to have Green now. And I think Rivers would agree. (Note: I know Green became a free agent after heart surgery and the Celtics technically could have signed him anyway, but his familiarity with the team was crucial in re-signing.)


bob
MY NOTE:  Did we lose toughness and an enforcer when Perk left?  Absolutely.  On the other hand, Perk is overpaid now, he is maxed out on talent and Jeff Green is definitely on the upswing.  Did trading Perk effectively close the championship window?  Perhaps.  Is having a young Rondo/Jeff Green combination better now and for the next 3+ years (when Green's contract runs out) than a Rondo/Perk combo?  There is no question about it.  Anyway, I'm past this now.  You go to war with the army you have, not the army you'd like to have or used to have. Only 18 days until the breakout of "hostilities".


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Rather than a logical assessment of the trade, I see this more as Doc expressing his deep affinity for that group -- KG, Pierce, Rondo, Ray, and Perk. He likes to say he never lost a playoff series with that starting five, and they hold a special place in his heart. He is a deeply emotional and loyal person, and that group had a special bond.

Doc has certainly had a lot to say recently. But Boston did get the benefit of that trade. OKC is still winless on the big stage with Perkins. He was supposed to be that next piece to sure up their post game. Well, clearly that never materialized. The team Boston had before was impressive, but injuries ultimately derailed their run.

Although, I do wish they had kept Glen Davis and Tony Allen...

KJ

k_j_88 wrote:Doc has certainly had a lot to say recently. But Boston did get the benefit of that trade. OKC is still winless on the big state. The team Boston had before was impressive, but injuries ultimately derailed their run.

Although, I do wish they had kept Glen Davis and Tony Allen...

KJ

KJ,

I like Bass, so I'm gonna call the trade for him and Davis a push, maybe even a plus for us since we don't have to deal with Davis' emotional rollercoaster. As far as Tony Allen goes, he chose to go to Memphis for less money. He said, when he left, that he didn't want to be in Ray and Paul's shadows anymore. Fair enough, he's got his starting slot and he's considered one of the top defensive guards in the league because he's getting the minutes and visibility, but that was his choice, not ours.


bob


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BobH,

Good point.


KJ

I wish that Doc would just shut his big yap.  Many of his quotes since he left seem to be so much hot air.  There is no understanding of the big picture when he says stuff like this.  That is the same as his quotes about Pierce.

Perk was NOT going to re-sign with the Celtics during the next season for what Danny was willing to pay him.  Perk (as bobh says) is now way overpaid and has reached the level of his talent.  If the trade didn't go down, we wouldn't even have Green now.  Because of the lockout the following year, we also lost the center that was included in the trade package.  True, Krstik wasn't the defensive rock that Perk was, but because of his offensive contributions (Perk has none and still doesn't.  It made me LOL when he said that he was going to work on his jump shot over this summer), Krstik was a viable replacement.

Danny Ainge was left to fill in the 5-spot with "low talent healthy guys" or "high talent old broken down guys".  He did what he could, considering the CBA restraints.  Who knew Green was going to be lost for a year and a half with a heart issue and Krstic was going to decide to wait out the lockout back at home?

The best thing Doc should do is come up with a stock answer for all questions about his days as a Celtic coach.  Something like, "That was in the past, I would like to talk about the future, that's what excites me now".  The he can go on and on about being a Clipper and now he bleeds, what?  Orange?  Blue?  Red?

http://uniformcritics.com/basketball/nba/la-clippers/

Doc, go quietly into your future and shut the pie-hole about woulda-coulda's from your days here!!  Please?

I'm not aware that Doc has written and published any retrospective articles on the Celtics. If the media were only enabling such comments, it would be one thing. But they're out there scratching and clawing for anything they think will titillate basketball fans in the off-season. The vast majority of media basketball "journalism" in the off-season involves either a semi-redundant rehash or mountains being made out of a molehills or conjecture. Moreover, it is exactly when the media enter the desperation stage (in other words, lately) that they make fullest use of all the little questioning tricks of the trade, such as the old bromide, "So you can't deny that _______?"

Oh for an honest-to-goodness trade—i.e,, a CONFIRMED trade—that we could really sink our teeth into.

Sam

Fate focked us both times. I would have loved to go to war with Perk still on that 11 team, Lebron got too many easy layups, Kristic was a BIG defensive liability that series. Even with the trade and no Jeff Green and AB we took the Heat to 7 games the next year....wish we could have done that Perk trade after the 11 season, Thunder still got to 11 Finals and Perk toughening up that defense was a big reason why.

We had Miami's number even without JG and AB that series as refs helped Heat steal that series on Rondos 44 point night....we woulda crushed them in 5 or 6 with a healthy Green and AB that year, wasn't meant to be.

cowens,

From what I hear, the Miami Heat have 8 players on the court at all times.


KJ

How about that thug D Wade bumping into Pierce and jumping in his face to start a farcas....double tech and Pierce is out in the key 4th of game 1 in a game Lebron was off and Pierce was just warming up in? those fockin A-holes!!!!!!

When you get a chance to make a deal for a future All Star level talent - you make it. Period.

Perk was a good protector for KG....but he was utterly useless on offense, couldnt hit a FT to save his life - and was often not even on the court down the stretch that season.

In 5 years when Jeff Green is still putting up 18 / 10 a game here in Boston and Doc has long since moved onto TNT - someone should deliver him a slice of humble pie to eat.

Doc playing monday morning quarterback isnt very impressive, nor is it useful.

mrkleen09 wrote:When you get a chance to make a deal for a future All Star level talent - you make it. Period.

Perk was a good protector for KG....but he was utterly useless on offense, couldnt hit a FT to save his life - and was often not even on the court down the stretch that season.

In 5 years when Jeff Green is still putting up 18 / 10 a game here in Boston and Doc has long since moved onto TNT - someone should deliver him a slice of humble pie to eat.

Doc playing monday morning quarterback isnt very impressive, nor is it useful.

Mrkleen,

I like Jeff Green a lot and have high hopes for him, although admittedly I'm not in your league.

Having said that, if Jeff Green ever averages even close to 10 rebounds per game you will see me doing a St. Vitus dance like an Irish rabbit stoned on ecstasy.


bob



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BobH

It's all about context.

If, over time, there are a couple of rebounding stalwarts on the team, he won't needed to rebound all that much. If there are some teammates who block out in robust fashion, it could lead to more rebounds per game for Jeff.

• Alternatively, he might be developed into a guy who blocks out effectively on the boards while teammates get the rebounds.

• The team's current depth at PF probably means Jeff will play the bulk of him minutes at SF, and Brad won't be expecting him to put up PF rebound numbers.

• Paul Pierce, whom many people call one of the best Celtics ever, has averaged 5.9 rebounds per 36 minutes over his career. As he has focused mainly on the SF position, Paul's rebounding numbers have actually decreased slightly, except for this past season when he accumlated 7.2 per 36 minutes. Jeff Green has averaged 5.8 rebounds per 36 minutes over his career. If he now can play primarily at SF, with the height advantage that he should derive in many matchups, there's every possibility that his rebounding figures will increase slightly.

There's always a context. Nature of teammates; roles with the team;position played; whatever.

Sam

sam wrote:BobH

It's all about context.

If, over time, there are a couple of rebounding stalwarts on the team, he won't needed to rebound all that much.  If there are some teammates who block out in robust fashion, it could lead to more rebounds per game for Jeff.

• Alternatively, he might be developed into a guy who blocks out effectively on the boards while teammates get the rebounds.

• The team's current depth at PF probably means Jeff will play the bulk of him minutes at SF, and Brad won't be expecting him to put up PF rebound numbers.

• Paul Pierce, whom many people call one of the best Celtics ever, has averaged 5.9 rebounds per 36 minutes over his career.  As he has focused mainly on the SF position, Paul's rebounding numbers have actually decreased slightly, except for this past season when he accumlated 7.2 per 36 minutes.   Jeff Green has averaged 5.8 rebounds per 36 minutes over his career.  If he now can play primarily at SF, with the height advantage that he should derive in many matchups, there's every possibility that his rebounding figures will increase slightly.

There's always a context.  Nature of teammates; roles with the team;position played; whatever.

Sam

sam,

It's hard to argue against context and perspective.  On the other hand, 6'9" is 6'9" is 6'9".  You compared him to Paul Pierce, who averaged 5.9rebs/36mpg, while pointing out that Green has averaged slightly less than that.  Jeff Green is also 2" taller than Pierce.  Jeff Green has also played PF for years and they are expected to be better rebounders than SFs.  If we're going to compare 6'9" 235# SF Jeff Green to someone, how about comparing him to 6'9" 225# SF Larry Bird?  Larry averaged 9.4rebs/36mpg.

Basketball is, of course, a 5 man game.  Putting players in the context of who they are on the floor with is critical.  Larry played with two strong rebounding frontcourt partners, Kevin McHale (8.5rebs/36mpg) and Robert Parish (11.6rebs/36mpg).  Who has Jeff Green played with?  Nenad Krstic?  Kevin Durant?  He should have been the board monster with that froncourt.  Kevin Garnett and Brandon Bass?  There should have been more rebounds available to Jeff with that frontcourt too.  It's not like he had to muscle Moses Malone aside for the ball.

Rondo averages 5.0rebs/36mpg.  Not bad for a 6'1" PG, right?  How the hell does he do that?  The same way most players that are good rebounders pound-for-pound do it, they want it.  Ganas.  Jeff Green doesn't want to earn rebounds.  Last year, before the year started, he admitted he tended to forget about rebounding and needed to focus more on that aspect of his game.  His total rebounds per 36mpg last year was identical, 5.1/36mpg, as they were the previous year.  It just doesn't seem to be his thing.




1.  He might turn into a player that boxes out for his teammates.  On a team that needs rebounding, I'd consider that a waste of 6'9", but whatever works.  IMO, he should either be getting the board or getting out on the wing.  Just putting a body on a smaller player doesn't take advantage of his size and athleticism, nor does it put him in a position to take it to his smaller man on the offensive break.

2.  Brad won't expect him to put up PF numbers if he's playing SF.  Perhaps not, although, with a dearth of centers (as of today) we'll need everybody hitting the boards.

3.  Playing primarily SF, maybe his rebounding figures will improve because of his size matchups.  According to 82games.com, his rebounding numbers went up when he was playing PF over when he was playing SF.  That's understandable, PFs tend to be closer to the basket, but then that means he really is a 6'9" SF that rebounds like a 6'7" one.


I like Jeff Green.  He was a real eye-opener last year.  He's another year away from that surgery.  I'm hoping this will be his year.  I'm probably rooting for him even more than MrKleen is because MrKleen is already supremely confident in him.  I'm hoping that, with Rondo not being ready in the early part of the season, that he steps up big time.  I have, however, significantly lowered my expectations for his rebounding.  MrKleen said he'd be a 18/10 player.  I'd expect more of a 22/6 player.  I'd be very happy with 22/6, with good defense, as long as it was reasonably consistent.  22/6 gets you on the All-Star team.


bob


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Bob,

I'm not into comparing heights. I'm more into comparing positional expectations. The Celtics won a championship with Paul Pierce who played primarily at SF and averaged 5.1 rebounds per game. This tells me it's possible to win a championship with a SF (even a potential HOF one) who averages 5.1 rebounds a game, depend on what other conditions are present.

Brad appears to be very much into making maximum use of the strengths of each player rather than trying to force-fit players to meet unrealistic expectations.

Sam

I'd rather a coach that is realistic than a bit too adventurous for his own good.


KJ