This article verify my theory..Ainge really doesnt have a clue about the way of rebuilding a team.

http://www.csnne.com/boston-celtics/if-cs-keep-improving-ainge-would-love-make-playoffs

International,

Can you explain what you mean? I don't get the same sense from the article that you apparently do.

Outside ,
What I mean is that Ainge right now is not sure if he wants to make the playoff or not,He said that he is developing the young players ,but he is not sure is he is going to trade for veteran players to advance in the playoff.You cant, be in two sides, or you wants to make the playoff or not.Sometimes they play the youngsters but later they play veterans like Thornton and Wallace who has no future on the team.Even with Brandon Bass now he is saying maybe will sign him for next season and everybody with a little knowledge of basketball knows there is no room in this team for 3 power forwards..Bass ,Olynyk and Sully.Right now he is not sure if he is going to draft a center or a small forward,right now he is not sure if James Young is a guard or a small forward.In my opinion this year draft is key in the way the team is going to get better or not, but they don't see it the same way.Are you sure you see that Ainge is in total control with the rebuild,are you sure he knows exactly what he is doing?Maybe I am wrong but I don't see it that way.Even Phil Jackson and the Knicks or the Lakers have a right plan for next year and you can bet they are sure at this point where are the headed and already know whos is going to be on the team comes next year.

As far as the Celtics getting to the postseason, Ainge said he pays very little attention to the Eastern Conference standings.This says a lot of the way he is doing things.

When I read this article I saw the same, usual stuff I'm used to reading from Danny, a whole lotta nothing.

It's not his job to tell us the truth about player injuries.  In fact, by spreading disinformation he is making it harder for opposing coaches to scout. I have never understood fans who got mad with Danny because he said "KG will be back next week" and he isn't back for 3 weeks. If you're expecting to play against a player, you scout him and prepare. If you know he is going to be out you don't scout them, you scout and prepare for their replacements. Why make their jobs easier? But people got made at him because "he lied". Well, yeah. Duh.

It's not his job to tell us the truth about what players he likes or doesn't like.  Of course he "loves" this entire roster.   That's just posturing to drive up the trade price.  He "loved" Rondo and Green too.

It's not his job to tell us the truth about what position/player he likes in the draft.  In fact, a misdirection play is what every GM does.  You can like Kelly or not but Utah, who picked before us, was drooling over him and if it was known that Danny was hot on him and was ready to trade up for him (and it only cost us a 2nd rounder) then maybe they'd try to move up too.  What actually happened was they traded up for Trey Burke and gave up two 1st round picks which turned into Shabazz Mohammed and Gorgui Dieng.  A point guard (and they now have Exum, which makes you wonder how well Burke is doing at 1) for a scorer and a 6'11" center.  Would they have done that if they thought they could have had a 7'0" scorer fall into their laps?  That happened because Danny wasn't particularly honest and forthright.

In the piece he says he wants us to improve.  Duh.  What else would he say?

In the piece, he says he wants us to make the playoffs but not with a bad record and if we don't have a chance.  Duh.
What kind of record and chance would we have if we made the #8 spot? We already all know, in the pathetic EC, don't we?  So, what is Danny saying, if you read it carefully?  He's saying "I hope we don't make the playoffs because we still won't be good enough to have a fighting chance".  Can a GM,  ESPECIALLY of the Celtics, actually say that?  Not even Sam Hinkie has come right out and said that, he just disassembled his team to make it virtually impossible for them to do it.  You know, just like Danny did by trading Rondo and Green and then traded some the pieces he got in those trades (Nelson, Wright). Brad is just squeezing the last drop of juice out of the badly-beaten pulp Danny has handed him and we're closer than anybody thought we'd be. Anybody think we'd have a 3-3 road trip out west?

In the piece he says he isn't paying attention to the playoff race in the east.  Do you believe that? Of course he is.  Maybe not focusing on whether we make the playoffs, that's more Brad's department, but you know Trader Danny is on the phone regularly with his peers to see if they could use an accomplished scorer to help them go deeper into the pkayoffs (Thornton) or frontcourt depth (Bass).  Acting disinterested is not the same as being disinterested and we know he is actively working trades which means he knows what others need and why and why includes their playoff seeding and likely playoff opponents.  

Just a whole lotta nothing here.  Just Danny saying all the politically correct things while carefully avoiding saying anything of substance.

The usual.


bob



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Bob,
That why this team doesn't have cap space since the Pitino year and a real center since Robert Parish.Have ou noticed that with the exception of Vitor Danny never have taken a good player from Europe?maybe the reason for these 3 things is that was misdirection play like you say.I rather have cap space and roster spots than picks ,because picks can be or not be good players,while you having cap space you can get players like Robin Lopez,Hassan Whiteside,and many other bargains.Belive me I would love to be wrong and Danny is doing his job the best way,but right now I don't think so.And being a fan of this team since 1970 I know that you don't improvise with a glorious franchise like this,leave improvisation to franchises like Brooklyn,Sacramento and the Clippers.

International,

What I hear Danny saying is that he has to balance attempts to succeed now with attempts to build for success in the future. It makes perfect sense to me.

For now, the Celtics have to build a winning culture, and that is best done by having the young guys guided and supplemented by a few impact veterans as the young guys grow into their NBA roles and gradually learn about how to contribute to team chemistry. I call it developing within a "veteran womb." If Danny trades veterans Bass and/or Thornton and/or Prince, it will be a sign (in my estimation) that he values talent more than

As far as later goes, this will be the first time in years when Danny hasn't been limited in what he could do transaction-wise by having very little cap room and trying to make peach flambé out of the chop suey known as exceptions and veterans' contracts. Teams with cap room have more opportunity to experiment with signing international players. Teams without cap room and mediocre draft positioning have to be opportunistic in seeing bargains that other teams don't see; they're less able to gamble on untested international players.

You understandably like to mention international players that might be good prospects. You don't mention the international players who have not panned out as hoped. In the 2007 draft, a lot of people were very high on Yi Janlian, and it's been pretty well documented that Danny would have drafted Yi at #5 (Janlian went #6 to Milwaukee). Instead of that move, Danny elected to use #5 to help build an IMMEDIATE championship team. That gutsy move by Danny is the only reason the Celtics continue to lead the Lakers in championships. This is the third season that Yi has not even been in the NBA.

You mention Vitor. He's another example of a foreign player with potential, but he just wasn't good enough for the NBA—at least not within any time frame that could help the Celtics.

So, when you're tempted to criticize Danny for not getting more foreign players, you might run the names Yi and Vitor through your mind. Danny avoided one and cut his losses with the other, doing a great service to the Celtics in each case.

There are undoubtedly international players who can become serviceable or even star NBA players. But they are exceptions rather than the rule. In general, the international game hasn't been nearly as productive as a spawning ground for NBA talent as the U.S. college game.

The teams with an ongoing core of winners (like the Spurs) have a much greater likelihood of integrating untested international players into an already winning culture as opposed to expecting untested international players to become part of the foundation of a winning culture.

Just have patience, International. I believe that, over time, you'll be a lot happier with Danny's work, and I believe part of that work will include the acquisition of more international players.

Sam

international wrote:Bob,
That why this team doesn't have cap space since the Pitino year and a real center since Robert Parish.Have ou noticed that with the exception of Vitor Danny never have taken a good player from Europe?maybe the reason for these 3 things is that was misdirection play like you say.I rather have cap space and roster spots than picks ,because picks can be or not be good players,while you having cap space you can get players like Robin Lopez,Hassan Whiteside,and many other bargains.Belive me I would love to be wrong and Danny is doing his job the best way,but right now I don't think so.And being a fan of this team since 1970 I know that you don't improvise with a glorious franchise like this,leave improvisation to franchises like Brooklyn,Sacramento and the Clippers.

Intl,

Pitino left in 2001.  Danny was hired in 2003.


One reason we haven't had cap space is precisely because Danny assembled a team of high quality, HIGHLY PAID all-stars and future HOFers.  And it paid off.

Yes, Danny has had a blind spot when it comes to foreign players.  Probably the first NBA GM to dial into that was former Celtic Don Nelson, but he has always been a bit of a mad scientist.  After him would be the Spurs organization and then perhaps Toronto (but they're already international).  He has hired a new Director of International scouting, we'll see how well that works.  Danny, personally, did go to Italy to see Gigi Datome and personally went to scout Porzingis last year.  Slowly, he's coming around.

As far as not having "a real center since Parish" what would you call Perk?  He was drafted by Memphis but never put on the uni, he was an immediate trade to Boston (like Rondo was drafted by Phoenix but never wore the uni).  Raef was a center.  Not one I liked but he was a center.  He was Dave Cowens without the ferocity and Dave Cowens without ferocity is an undersized elbow jumpshooter.

I agree with you about picks.  I am however, until proven wrong,  sticking with the belief that most of these picks will never wear green.  They will be packaged with players, maybe with sign-and-trades, for quality players like the ones you mentioned.  Draft picks are like cash.  They have no contractual weight which gives them value without longterm commitment or cost (or, at most, rookie scale commitments and costs) to the receiving team.  They are also very flexible since you can offer them to a team that needs a point guard and there is still a good one still available in the draft.  Then, that pick has value to them.  If you have a player they don't need you have nothing of value to them to trade.  They are sweeteners and, depending on how high a pick they are, maybe even VERY sweet.  Sweeteners still need something to sweeten and that's where Brad comes in and why he, and not a veteran coach, was hired.  His job is to grow the product to be sweetened.

I know you are a LONGterm Celtics fan.  Nobody is questioning your heart.  I'm not questioning your head either, you may be right in the end, but improvisation is necessary in a league with changing talent (wasn't SAS improvising when they committed big-time to international players that early,  and didn't that work out?  And SAS had a winning tradition dating back to the pre-NBA days of the ABA) and changing strategies (e.g.  stretch 4s, score first point guards).  Danny has already dredged us off the bottom once.  It took him 5 years.  There are some, like Cowens, who think that happened because of his personal relationship with McHale.  Whatever.  Personal relationships have greased the wheels of business since caveman days and there are few, if any, GMs in the NBA who have as many former assistants and/or former teammates in positions of power in the NBA as Danny.  I had no clue, NONE, in May of 2007 that we'd be anywhere near a championship in 2008.  There was nothing about that roster that even said "EC Finals".  And then, there it was...

We are 1 1/2 years into a 3-5 year rebuild, only halfway through even the most overly optimistic projection.  The final destination is not in sight and the path to it is unclear (at least to us) but not all who wander are lost.  After the seemingly directionless meander through Trader Danny's hall of mirrors from 2003-2007, I have to give Danny at least few more years before I start to think 2008 was a fluke or just pure "thank you, McHale".  In my opinion, he has earned himself that much credibility and patience from me because, however he did it the first time, he did it.



bob



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international wrote:Even Phil Jackson and the Knicks or the Lakers have a right plan for next year and you can bet they are sure at this point where are the headed and already know whos is going to be on the team comes next year.

Really? What plan do the Knicks have? Turning their team in a bunch of tanking losers in hopes they will get a high lottery pick?

That last thing I want is to see players like Smart, Crowder and Sully told to take it easy and not play so hard, as we dont want to win. That is a loser's mentality which never works out in the long run. Go out play hard and learn what it means to be a Celtic.

I didn't read anything in the article that I wouldn't expect any GM to say.  I thought Ainge made sense, especially in the following passage…

So I asked him if he would like to see the Celtics in the playoffs this year?

“That depends,” Ainge, Boston’s president of basketball operations, told CSNNE.com. “I would love to see our team in the playoffs, but I don’t want to see us back into the playoffs with a really bad record and not even have a fighting chance. If our team can keep getting better by developing, if we can make some deals at the trade deadline that put us in position to actually get into the playoffs and have a chance to win a playoff series, I think that would be a lot of fun.

Ainge added, “Those are things we’re trying to do. We’re trying to speed up our process of becoming a better team all the time.”

Finding that happy medium between fielding a playoff-caliber team in the short-term while acquiring talent and assets down the road, is a challenge Ainge embraces.


So he's saying that, yes, he would like to see the team in the playoffs, as long as they're competitive. He also says that regardless, he wants the team to grow and improve by playing together, as well as by acquiring new talent.

Sounds OK to me.

International,

Since there's no telling how it will work out, I can see your point of view that it may not. Until all those draft picks turn into players that they actually draft or players that they trade for, they are just unfulfilled potential.

I happen to think Ainge's plan is a good one, but I can see where it would reasonable to think it's not going to lead to anything. I like what NYCelt said recently, that it's good to see multiple points of view about the rebuild because it would be boring if we all thought the same thing. I like hearing what you have to say, particularly when I hear your reasoning behind it. It provides food for thought and helps keep us from falling into "group think" where we become an echo chamber for each other.

Time will tell. We'll see if he makes any moves by the deadline. Then we'll see what happens this summer when the first group of picks have to turn into something. After that, it's waiting to see if he does anything with that big, fat trade exception. The net result of the rebuild is still years away, but the next year will be telling.

Outside wrote:International,

Since there's no telling how it will work out, I can see your point of view that it may not. Until all those draft picks turn into players that they actually draft or players that they trade for, they are just unfulfilled potential.

I happen to think Ainge's plan is a good one, but I can see where it would reasonable to think it's not going to lead to anything. I like what NYCelt said recently, that it's good to see multiple points of view about the rebuild because it would be boring if we all thought the same thing. I like hearing what you have to say, particularly when I hear your reasoning behind it. It provides food for thought and helps keep us from falling into "group think" where we become an echo chamber for each other.

Time will tell. We'll see if he makes any moves by the deadline. Then we'll see what happens this summer when the first group of picks have to turn into something. After that, it's waiting to see if he does anything with that big, fat trade exception. The net result of the rebuild is still years away, but the next year will be telling.

Hear, hear.



bob



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I'm reasonably sure that when DA drafted Big Al...... he knew right then that would lead to eventually getting KG and thus a championship (and a couple knee injuries from getting 3.)

OK I'm kidding......but

Pretty good planning I'd think


Like outside said.................Time will tell. We'll see if he makes any moves by the deadline. Then we'll see what happens this summer when the first group of picks have to turn into something. After that, it's waiting to see if he does anything with that big, fat trade exception. The net result of the rebuild is still years away, but the next year will be telling.

Patience

If we slide into the playoffs only to get mauled by Atlanta or ??? in 3 straight is that a bonus for playoff experience? Hardly I'd think.

We continue to play hard right to the end in most games and in the long run for the players that will be part of the future that is all we can ask.

beat

People,
This theme is very interesting and seems to me that is me against the world ,because everybody is attacking my opinion(in a good way its a good attack)I wish I could explain my point better,but like I said in the past my English is not as good as yours.But once again I will try do my best...first Sam you see me as an European who doesn't like the NBA and think they are better,but to clarify I am from PR a territory of the USA I am an American citizen who since 8 years old  is been watching and listening(on a transistor radio)Major League baseball and NBA.i wont start an argue with you about the quality of European players(by the way Ji Jianlan is not from Europe is from China and there is a big difference because the chinesse players are soft as papel)if you take a look at this year all star you will find that both starting centers are from Europe the Gasol brothers,and players like Nowitzki,Parker,Batum,Ginobilli,Pekovic,Vujanovic,Gorcat,Gracic,Nene,Varejao,Valanciunas, and many others(the majority big men)I forgot Gobert and Dieng.When you see that your last picks ...Sullinger,Melo,Bradley,Olynyk,Smart,Young,Johnson,Moore,are almost all good player but neither one is as good as be a sure cornerstone you have to realize that the result drafting is at least so so if not bad.over the cap space all this years and with a full roster each years that's not good administration,at least to me.There are many other thing that probe my point but nobody is going to admit it because is everybody against me and Ainge is perfect.Dont worry I know what I am saying and until danny prove me wrong I will be defending my opinion.Later today I am going to show a list of international players that been ignore by Danny in the draft and the players he has taken instead of them.

Beat,
Its funny but when you mention Al Jefferson, i remembered who was the player Danny wanted to draft but could nt do it because Seattle took him the great Robert Swifts.

2008 draft.
JR Giddens.
availables
1-Nikola Pekovic
2-Omer Asik
3-DaAndre Jordan(not from Europe but a good one)
4-Goran Dragic
5-Ante Tomic-a 7-2 center from Croatia who has been a great center in Europe with the best teams like Barcelona in Spain.
2009 draft'
nobody-traded to Minnesota #28
availables.
1Jonas Jerebko
2-marcus Thornton
3-Patrick Beverley
4-Chase Buddinger.
5Danny Green.
2010 draft.
Avery Bradley
availables
Greivis Vasquez
Lance Stevenson
2011 draft
Jajuan Johnson
availables
Jimmy Butler,Chandler Parsons,Isaiah Thomas.

2012 draft,
Jarred Sullinger and Fab Melo.
availables
Tony Wroten,Miles Plumlee,Festus Ezeli,Jae Crowder,DRAYMOND GREEN,Kriss Middleton,Kyle O"'Quinn.
2013 draft
Kelly Olynyk
availables
GIANNIS ANTETOKOUMPO,Gorgui Dieng,Mason Plumlee(in my opinion not better than Kelly ,but has a better trade value by far)RUDY GOBERT,

If we are still trying to answer questions like this one speak a lot about improvisation and the way you rebuildhttps://samcelt.forumotion.net/t8439-will-any-current-celtics-make-a-future-all-star-game a team.

Thanks Cowens.
at last somebody understand my point,that is simple...I don't see a right plan in rebuld and on the contrary there is too much improvisation.

International, how could you possibly say that I regard you as "a European?"  That's just plain incorrect.  If you can find one post from me that has confused you with being a European rather than Puerto Rican, point me to it and I'll send you $100.  Seriously!  (Not that there's anything wrong with being European.  My wife and I have published a book about a European country that we love.)

And I've never once characterized you as being partial only to Europeans.  Your mention of Vitor proves that.

For the most part, Danny has had mediocre draft picks for many years.

Sam

Sam,
You could send me that hundred dollars that are trying to leave your pocket.

Clyde, what's that you say? I can't hear you. Operator1 Operator!

Sam