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Zen Master: the sacred triangle will work
by Sloopjohnb Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:28 pm
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/04/sports/basketball/phil-jackson-is-out-to-prove-that-his-signature-offense-still-fits.html?hpw&rref=sports&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&m
Some opinions of Zen Master would find a home among certain posters here:
"Way back in 1999, Bill Fitch, who was Jackson’s college coach at North Dakota, told him: “There’s not going to be any more midrange shots. It’s going to be a 3-point shot or right around the basket — that’s the way the game is evolving...
...Having won six titles with the triangle in Chicago, Jackson did not want to believe that. He could not understand why teams would not emulate the Bulls after what they had done."
“'He pretty much predicted the state of the game,'” Jackson said of Fitch. And the overall N.B.A. game, in Jackson’s opinion and much to his dismay, did become much too predictable, much less pure...
...“'I think it’s still debatable about how basketball is going to be played, what’s going to win out,” he said, leaving no doubt of his disdain for the point guard dominating concept of “screen-and-roll, break down, pass, and two or three players standing in spots, not participating in the offense.”
My feelings? I get sick of hearing coaches--active or otherwise--harping on their "system" and sportswriters lauding the coaches systems. How about the coaches who adapt the style of play to the talent at hand?
For instance, whatever you may think of Pat Riley, you can't say he was attached to any one way of playing. He had LA doing the showtime thing but when he coached the Knicks he had them playing grind it out thug ball.
The other great Red sums it up nicely:
"Red Holzman, Jackson’s original pro coaching mentor, was never known for overstructuring his offense, much less branding it. He relied on his players’ instincts to move the ball and hit the open man. In his later years, Holzman believed that celebrated systems were a crutch: If the system worked, the coach could be hailed a genius. If it didn’t, it was because the players did not fit the system."
Amen to that.
Some opinions of Zen Master would find a home among certain posters here:
"Way back in 1999, Bill Fitch, who was Jackson’s college coach at North Dakota, told him: “There’s not going to be any more midrange shots. It’s going to be a 3-point shot or right around the basket — that’s the way the game is evolving...
...Having won six titles with the triangle in Chicago, Jackson did not want to believe that. He could not understand why teams would not emulate the Bulls after what they had done."
“'He pretty much predicted the state of the game,'” Jackson said of Fitch. And the overall N.B.A. game, in Jackson’s opinion and much to his dismay, did become much too predictable, much less pure...
...“'I think it’s still debatable about how basketball is going to be played, what’s going to win out,” he said, leaving no doubt of his disdain for the point guard dominating concept of “screen-and-roll, break down, pass, and two or three players standing in spots, not participating in the offense.”
My feelings? I get sick of hearing coaches--active or otherwise--harping on their "system" and sportswriters lauding the coaches systems. How about the coaches who adapt the style of play to the talent at hand?
For instance, whatever you may think of Pat Riley, you can't say he was attached to any one way of playing. He had LA doing the showtime thing but when he coached the Knicks he had them playing grind it out thug ball.
The other great Red sums it up nicely:
"Red Holzman, Jackson’s original pro coaching mentor, was never known for overstructuring his offense, much less branding it. He relied on his players’ instincts to move the ball and hit the open man. In his later years, Holzman believed that celebrated systems were a crutch: If the system worked, the coach could be hailed a genius. If it didn’t, it was because the players did not fit the system."
Amen to that.
Sloopjohnb- Posts : 638
Join date : 2013-12-29
Re: Zen Master: the sacred triangle will work
by wide clyde Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:40 pm
"Systems" such as the triangle are great IF you have the proper coach to teach it and also the proper players to run it.
A "system" by itself is only good enough for coaches to study and possibly steal some concepts or ideas from it to add to their own thoughts.
To my knowledge, there are no teams in the NBA that have a "name" (such as the 'Triangle") for their offense because everyone seems to run stuff that makes their guys successful more than just to run a "system". Perhaps Jackson can make the triangle work again, but I doubt that he is returning to coach.
A "system" by itself is only good enough for coaches to study and possibly steal some concepts or ideas from it to add to their own thoughts.
To my knowledge, there are no teams in the NBA that have a "name" (such as the 'Triangle") for their offense because everyone seems to run stuff that makes their guys successful more than just to run a "system". Perhaps Jackson can make the triangle work again, but I doubt that he is returning to coach.
wide clyde- Posts : 815
Join date : 2014-10-22
Re: Zen Master: the sacred triangle will work
by NYCelt Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:44 pm
wide clyde wrote:"Systems" such as the triangle are great IF you have the proper coach to teach it and also the proper players to run it.
This says it perfectly in my opinion.
Count me with those who don't think the Knicks have the right players.
NYCelt- Posts : 10627
Join date : 2009-10-12
Re: Zen Master: the sacred triangle will work
by bobheckler Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:24 pm
Here is a counter-point article, quoting Phil, before the game.
Phil Jackson talks about failed experiment before another Knicks' loss
FEBRUARY 3, 2015, 9:56 PM LAST UPDATED: WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 4, 2015, 1:41 AM
BY STEVE POPPER
STAFF WRITER | THE RECORD
Celtics guard Evan Turner (11) reaches for the ball after blocking a shot by Carmelo Anthony (7) during the first half Tuesday, Feb. 3, 2015 at Madison Square Garden. AP
Celtics guard Evan Turner (11) reaches for the ball after blocking a shot by Carmelo Anthony (7) during the first half Tuesday, Feb. 3, 2015 at Madison Square Garden.
NEW YORK - In his 20 seasons of coaching Phil Jackson never experienced a losing season, never finished a year without a playoff berth.
And then there is this, his first full season as team president for the Knicks.
“Like nothing I’ve seen before,” Jackson said in an interview with the New York Times. “So far, my experiment has fallen flat on its face.”
And that was before he took his seat at Madison Square Garden Tuesday night and watched the Knicks fall behind 14-2 on their way to a 108-97 loss to the Boston Celtics. The Knicks never recovered from the sluggish start as the Celtics led from start to finish to snap a season-best four-game home winning streak for New York.
Avery Bradley led Boston with 26 points while Carmelo Anthony had just seven points in the first half before finishing with 21 on 9-of-23 shooting.
Jackson has rarely opened up this season, speaking three times to the Knicks’ beat writers since the season began and this lengthy interview touched on a number of topics - mostly Jackson’s belief in the triangle offense and desire to prove that it can work outside of his 11 championship rings from his years coaching the Chicago Bulls and Los Angeles Lakers.
The line of disciples from his staff who have gone out on their own and tried to implement the offense have universally failed, but Jim Cleamons, Kurt Rambis and Bill Cartwright didn’t have Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant to hand the ball to - not to mention Scott Pippen or Shaquille O’Neal. The two current acolytes of Jackson’s preaching in the NBA are both enduring nightmarish seasons: Brian Shaw is reportedly on the verge of losing his job in Denver and Derek Fisher, under the watchful eye of Jackson in New York, is likely to finish with the worst single-season record in franchise history.
The losing, along with the constant focus on the style of play - some of it from inquisitive fans and media and much of it of their own creation with the season starting with a Spike Lee-crafted documentary on the triangle offense - has left Jackson with a tough sales job this coming summer. The Knicks will have approximately $30 million in salary cap space, but must convince someone their money is worth taking.
“Of course it’s a concern of mine, the perception that it’s too difficult to learn or too difficult for today’s players to embrace,” he said. “But I think anyone that believes he’s a total basketball player is going to want to do it. A sound offense incorporates all the basic skills of any player you have, whether you’re a center, a power forward, whatever. There are isolation spots in the triangle, but the only thing that precludes a player really fitting in is someone who has to have the whole side of the court to go one on one.”
But Jackson, after beginning the season predicting that the Knicks would be a playoff team, changed his tune. The trade of Tyson Chandler and Raymond Felton to Dallas in exchange for Jose Calderon, Samuel Dalembert, Shane Larkin, Wayne Ellington and a pair of second round picks has been a disaster with Chandler excelling and Calderon struggling while all of the bit pieces have either been sent packing or are hardly impressing.
“My guesswork, my anticipation in that regard, was kind of eye-opening for me,” Jackson said.
When things went south for the Knicks this season, he abandoned the dream of a postseason berth, said that the fault for this roster laid at his feet and he stripped down the roster even more, sending J.R. Smith and Iman Shumpert out of town.
That cleared slightly more salary cap space, but the Knicks are left with a two-pronged problem. They must recruit talented players - and the right players. The top free agents - Marc Gasol and LaMarcus Aldridge - are long shots to leave their current teams. And if the Knicks couldn’t make this system work with the talented players they had, feeling the need to discard them in favor of marginally-talented players, just how are they going to make it work with the next crop?
“You do need great players to win the championship, but having to always chase the best talent in free agency eventually becomes a mind-set of, well, the best talent wins as opposed to who plays the best team basketball — which is what San Antonio showed last season,” Jackson said. “Their play was special, a team that really values passing, a system where they’re not just standing around, spacing out shooters. That’s also what Atlanta and a couple of other teams are showing this year.
“We’re not going to punch all the right buttons in the process of doing this. But we’re looking for multiple talents, drive, intelligence, guys that will play defense. We hope to develop a team, and there are a lot of agents out there looking to find a good spot for their players.”
Still, it’s easier said than done. While Jackson pointed out correctly the unselfish style of play by the Spurs, he leaves out that the team includes a trio of likely Hall of Fame players, the most respected coach in the game and an assortment of talented pieces around the trio of vets - not to mention that the likes of Tim Duncan left a lot of money on the table to allow the team to fit more talent on the roster. When Jackson was convincing Carmelo Anthony to come back last summer he gave him a near maximum contract.
bob
.
Phil Jackson talks about failed experiment before another Knicks' loss
FEBRUARY 3, 2015, 9:56 PM LAST UPDATED: WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 4, 2015, 1:41 AM
BY STEVE POPPER
STAFF WRITER | THE RECORD
Celtics guard Evan Turner (11) reaches for the ball after blocking a shot by Carmelo Anthony (7) during the first half Tuesday, Feb. 3, 2015 at Madison Square Garden. AP
Celtics guard Evan Turner (11) reaches for the ball after blocking a shot by Carmelo Anthony (7) during the first half Tuesday, Feb. 3, 2015 at Madison Square Garden.
NEW YORK - In his 20 seasons of coaching Phil Jackson never experienced a losing season, never finished a year without a playoff berth.
And then there is this, his first full season as team president for the Knicks.
“Like nothing I’ve seen before,” Jackson said in an interview with the New York Times. “So far, my experiment has fallen flat on its face.”
And that was before he took his seat at Madison Square Garden Tuesday night and watched the Knicks fall behind 14-2 on their way to a 108-97 loss to the Boston Celtics. The Knicks never recovered from the sluggish start as the Celtics led from start to finish to snap a season-best four-game home winning streak for New York.
Avery Bradley led Boston with 26 points while Carmelo Anthony had just seven points in the first half before finishing with 21 on 9-of-23 shooting.
Jackson has rarely opened up this season, speaking three times to the Knicks’ beat writers since the season began and this lengthy interview touched on a number of topics - mostly Jackson’s belief in the triangle offense and desire to prove that it can work outside of his 11 championship rings from his years coaching the Chicago Bulls and Los Angeles Lakers.
The line of disciples from his staff who have gone out on their own and tried to implement the offense have universally failed, but Jim Cleamons, Kurt Rambis and Bill Cartwright didn’t have Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant to hand the ball to - not to mention Scott Pippen or Shaquille O’Neal. The two current acolytes of Jackson’s preaching in the NBA are both enduring nightmarish seasons: Brian Shaw is reportedly on the verge of losing his job in Denver and Derek Fisher, under the watchful eye of Jackson in New York, is likely to finish with the worst single-season record in franchise history.
The losing, along with the constant focus on the style of play - some of it from inquisitive fans and media and much of it of their own creation with the season starting with a Spike Lee-crafted documentary on the triangle offense - has left Jackson with a tough sales job this coming summer. The Knicks will have approximately $30 million in salary cap space, but must convince someone their money is worth taking.
“Of course it’s a concern of mine, the perception that it’s too difficult to learn or too difficult for today’s players to embrace,” he said. “But I think anyone that believes he’s a total basketball player is going to want to do it. A sound offense incorporates all the basic skills of any player you have, whether you’re a center, a power forward, whatever. There are isolation spots in the triangle, but the only thing that precludes a player really fitting in is someone who has to have the whole side of the court to go one on one.”
But Jackson, after beginning the season predicting that the Knicks would be a playoff team, changed his tune. The trade of Tyson Chandler and Raymond Felton to Dallas in exchange for Jose Calderon, Samuel Dalembert, Shane Larkin, Wayne Ellington and a pair of second round picks has been a disaster with Chandler excelling and Calderon struggling while all of the bit pieces have either been sent packing or are hardly impressing.
“My guesswork, my anticipation in that regard, was kind of eye-opening for me,” Jackson said.
When things went south for the Knicks this season, he abandoned the dream of a postseason berth, said that the fault for this roster laid at his feet and he stripped down the roster even more, sending J.R. Smith and Iman Shumpert out of town.
That cleared slightly more salary cap space, but the Knicks are left with a two-pronged problem. They must recruit talented players - and the right players. The top free agents - Marc Gasol and LaMarcus Aldridge - are long shots to leave their current teams. And if the Knicks couldn’t make this system work with the talented players they had, feeling the need to discard them in favor of marginally-talented players, just how are they going to make it work with the next crop?
“You do need great players to win the championship, but having to always chase the best talent in free agency eventually becomes a mind-set of, well, the best talent wins as opposed to who plays the best team basketball — which is what San Antonio showed last season,” Jackson said. “Their play was special, a team that really values passing, a system where they’re not just standing around, spacing out shooters. That’s also what Atlanta and a couple of other teams are showing this year.
“We’re not going to punch all the right buttons in the process of doing this. But we’re looking for multiple talents, drive, intelligence, guys that will play defense. We hope to develop a team, and there are a lot of agents out there looking to find a good spot for their players.”
Still, it’s easier said than done. While Jackson pointed out correctly the unselfish style of play by the Spurs, he leaves out that the team includes a trio of likely Hall of Fame players, the most respected coach in the game and an assortment of talented pieces around the trio of vets - not to mention that the likes of Tim Duncan left a lot of money on the table to allow the team to fit more talent on the roster. When Jackson was convincing Carmelo Anthony to come back last summer he gave him a near maximum contract.
bob
.
bobheckler- Posts : 61467
Join date : 2009-10-28
Re: Zen Master: the sacred triangle will work
by Sam Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:44 pm
And, in his 20 seasons as a coach, Phil has never been called upon to build a team. "Eye-opening" for sure! Hot so easy when you're not handed a winner, hey Phil?
Sam
Sam
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