Haven't played that way....

I may take some heat for this but....
KG and PP are great players in the history of the game...no doubt and they deserve the recognition that they are such. I really dig both of their games....it's a joy to watch them when they are on.
Neither of them has played like an all-star consistently this year. This would be a good opportunity to for them to acknowledge this and to sit it out...It's possible that the reason they haven't played like all stars has to do with injury. Ok, so take a rest and see if that helps them in the stretch run. It's great to be an all star, it's better to win a championship, even if it's a long shot. It's about team, for the Celtics, at least it used to be.
No one could force them to sit, of course, and I'm sure it's a blast to participate...(good for the ego, too) but I wish that they would look at the big picture and take a pass...

LA,

I proposed the same thing in another thread, but it was pointed out to me that the Collective Bargaining Agreement requires those who get voted into the A-S game have to participate unless they get a waiver from the Commisioners Office. The waiver includes a physical by a physician chosen by the Commisioner. It also includes the transfer of control, as far as to when the "injured" player can return to play after the A-S break, to the Commisioner and his doctors.

The verbage, of course, is all legal-talk, but quite to the point. How this actually gets carried out as a general rule, may be just as a routine request. The SOP may just to agree to any reasonable request.

It would have helped the Celtic's case for a A-S game waiver if Paul had sat out the latest games after he was newly injured. It may have helped in the W-L column as well.

You are not the only one who thinks both of them should spend the break with their butts in a Lazy-boy.

gyso

You get no heat from me! I agree. I don't think either of them will, but I think theres a better chance of KG sitting than Paul. He's been trying to avenge his name in the 3 point contest for years...he won't give that up unless his foot falls off.

KellyGreen17 wrote:You get no heat from me! I agree. I don't think either of them will, but I think theres a better chance of KG sitting than Paul. He's been trying to avenge his name in the 3 point contest for years...he won't give that up unless his foot falls off.

Kelly,

That is exactly how I read the latest article in the Herald.

http://bostonherald.com/sports/basketball/celtics/view.bg?articleid=1232129&srvc=sports&position=2

I don’t see the 3-point contest as something that’s really going to hinder me.”

Pierce is also working not just on his 3-point shot, but his ball rack technique. He’s had to improvise.
“I have been practicing,” he said. “I feel pretty good about it. I’ve had my chances (the practice). I couldn’t time myself because we don’t have enough racks, but pulling the ball off the rack, getting that motion down, helps.”

Pierce is on a mission to atone for his only other 3-point shootout appearance in 2002. He finished tied for last with Steve Smith. He also spent a little too much time enjoying celebrating the night before.
_________________________________________________________________________________________

It seems to me to be ego driven. Where does practicing the 3-point shot pulling balls off a rack help his team at this time? IMO, he should be getting the physical therapy on his foot and then letting it rest.

gyso

Thanks for the link GYSO. Totally agree that it's all ego driven. It's unfortunate, I thought he had moved past that phase of his career. It's probably more likely due to his injury that he hasn't been shooting well lately, but a small part of me wonders if all that practice taking balls off racks has thrown his shot off. It's a completely different rhythm getting the ball at your hip rather than your chest...

You'll get no heat from me either. Here's a quote from Pierce in today's Boston Globe:

“It’s definitely a little sore, it’s definitely not 100 percent, but I’m able to play through it,’’ Pierce said. “Hopefully, over this
weekend it can get a lot better for the second half of the season.’’

This paragraph may be the biggest load of crap I've ever read—anywhere. It's like saying black is white. It's sore, so he's going to play on it over this weekend so it "can get a lot better for the second half of the season?" Does he think we're idiots? I really burned when I read that, and I can only hope he was somehow misquoted.

Pierce and KG should skip the entire all-star weekend and should be prepared to skip games until they're ready to go full-tilt. Anything less hurts the team because, when they're in there, the system calls for them to be able to do certain things. If they can't do those things, better to change the system to incorporate players who can at least perform up to expectations—even if those expectations are lower.

Period. End of discussion.

Sam

Sam wrote:You'll get no heat from me either. Here's a quote from Pierce in today's Boston Globe:

“It’s definitely a little sore, it’s definitely not 100 percent, but I’m able to play through it,’’ Pierce said. “Hopefully, over this
weekend it can get a lot better for the second half of the season.’’

This paragraph may be the biggest load of crap I've ever read—anywhere. It's like saying black is white. It's sore, so he's going to play on it over this weekend so it "can get a lot better for the second half of the season?" Does he think we're idiots? I really burned when I read that, and I can only hope he was somehow misquoted.

Pierce and KG should skip the entire all-star weekend and should be prepared to skip games until they're ready to go full-tilt. Anything less hurts the team because, when they're in there, the system calls for them to be able to do certain things. If they can't do those things, better to change the system to incorporate players who can at least perform up to expectations—even if those expectations are lower.

Period. End of discussion.

Sam

I think that we all overestimated how good the Celtics are this year. I know I did. I thought they could win upwards of 65 games once they acquired Sheed and Daniels. Right now they are on a pace to win just 52 games. The reasons: they are old and slow, at least their stars are, Wallace is not what he was advertised to be, and, I think, Garnett has some sort of chronic injury that affects his mobility and lift.
Personally, I think its time to blow up the team and start over. I am not enthralled with any of the "big three" at this point, nor am I overly impressed with a point guard who has no outside shot and cannot make free throws; or a center who disappears for long stretches of each game. Its been three years since I saw the Celtics play such uninspired soporific basketball, since before KG and Allen arrived. BTW: I don't hold this against the big three; we all get old. They are trying, but they just can't keep up any more. They had their moment in the sun; now its time for the FO to move on.

See me in April. That's not as callous as it sounds. Some people like to predict and set certain expectations; and, if those expectations aren't met, they see nothing but doom and gloom. I'm more of a "hoper." And what I have hoped since before the season started was that the Celtics would be peaking in April and pointing toward a representative run in the playoffs. I had also hoped that they could take advantage of their obvious and numerous resources to build toward that apex all season long. Unfortunately, that opportunity has never presented itself since the early victory run. It still can occur, although it will now have to be compressed into a shorter time frame. But proclaiming some permanent, definitive evaluation of this team while they're in their current state is...well, I'll just say ill-advised and totally premature.

Sam

I am with Sam.

Either I am just blind with fandom or I see things that others dont

Sam wrote:See me in April.

I also agree we have enough time, if minutes are distributed CAREFULLY and rest is closely monitored with entire games off for some of the oldsters, we could be a force in April. And even win it all.

But boy, it is hard to envision us doing that after watching this team play for the last seven weeks. The fan and supporter in me makes me do that though.

I'm all for individual accolades and all but only in the context of the team...It's a team sport, after all. If they have to go because it's part of the collective bargaining agreement, so be it....but it would be in everyones best interest for them to go easy on their injuries. On the other hand, I'm really not sure either has had an all star year. It is what it is....

Sam wrote:See me in April. That's not as callous as it sounds. Some people like to predict and set certain expectations; and, if those expectations aren't met, they see nothing but doom and gloom. I'm more of a "hoper." And what I have hoped since before the season started was that the Celtics would be peaking in April and pointing toward a representative run in the playoffs. I had also hoped that they could take advantage of their obvious and numerous resources to build toward that apex all season long. Unfortunately, that opportunity has never presented itself since the early victory run. It still can occur, although it will now have to be compressed into a shorter time frame. But proclaiming some permanent, definitive evaluation of this team while they're in their current state is...well, I'll just say ill-advised and totally premature.

Sam

What evidence is there that this team has a championship run in it? While I admit that its possible for them do a sudden about face and play well, if I were a betting man, I would not be putting my money down on this team. Their weaknesses are numerous and obvious. At some point one has to accept reality and make sure that the future is not sacrificed, to the best of one's ability, for a present that is more than likely just as dismal as it seems to be. Therefore, the front office needs to make some changes, major changes, in how the team is constructed NOW. If you wait until the end of the season you get NO ONE for Ray Allen, for example. Additional changes are also necessary, if they can be pulled off.
Most of the season is over. Its not too early to make a fair assessment of its talent level. Expecting a sudden improvement is illogical and unrealistic, even for the for the die-hard fan. Its just not going to happen.
I'll see you in April.

Gee, if I felt I still had 40% of my lifetime left, I wouldn't feel that "most of it was over." If the first 28 games of the season were
sufficient for a then-retooled team to come together well enough to go 23-5 (despite missing a couple of key members due to injury), the remaining 32 games ought to be enough time for a team that's now more familiar with one another to capitalize on hopefully improved health and greater continuity and reemerge as a championship contender.

Gee, did you also claim during the first month of last baseball season that the Yankees were through as a power because they were doing so poorly and the Red Sox had beaten them eight straight? That would definitely have been a premature release, wouldn't it?

There isn't necessarily evidence that this team has a championship run in it. But there's no conclusive evidence that they don't—the key
word being conclusive because anyone who makes predictions based on a period of a discontinuity-induced slump is "ill-advised." If you think this team is now operating anywhere close to the peak performance it can yet attain, you are sadly mistaken.

I'm not naive enough to predict they'll win a championship, but I'm also not naive enough to make a premature prediction that they won't.

Sam

Sam wrote:Gee, if I felt I still had 40% of my lifetime left, I wouldn't feel that "most of it was over." If the first 28 games of the season were
sufficient for a then-retooled team to come together well enough to go 23-5 (despite missing a couple of key members due to injury), the remaining 32 games ought to be enough time for a team that's now more familiar with one another to capitalize on hopefully improved health and greater continuity and reemerge as a championship contender.

Gee, did you also claim during the first month of last baseball season that the Yankees were through as a power because they were doing so poorly and the Red Sox had beaten them eight straight? That would definitely have been a premature release, wouldn't it?

There isn't necessarily evidence that this team has a championship run in it. But there's no conclusive evidence that they don't—the key
word being conclusive because anyone who makes predictions based on a period of a discontinuity-induced slump is "ill-advised." If you think this team is now operating anywhere close to the peak performance it can yet attain, you are sadly mistaken.

I'm not naive enough to predict they'll win a championship, but I'm also not naive enough to make a premature prediction that they won't.

Sam

I am not sure I understand the analogy about having 40% of your lifetime left and considering it nearly over. I would think a more appropriate analogy would be: "I am now 60 years old and plan to live to 120"..is that a realistic plan? It COULD happen; the odds are against it. And your analogy about the Yankees is likewise flawed: after half of last year's season it was clear that the Yankees were going to be the team to beat-just as after more than half of this year's basketball season is now over it is clear that the Celtics are NOT the team to beat. One can make judgements about teams, and players, about performance after a significant amount of time has passed with larger sample sizes being more reliable than smaller ones. And I don't think its a 26 game slump during which they are just 12 wins and 14 losses. I think that is just close to how good the team is. Its nearly a third of the season. Or, if you want to consider the whole season (better sample size), they are on a pace to win just 52 games and have not demonstrated any ability at all to beat good teams. They are just 13-12 against teams over .500.
I am not predicting that they won't win a championship either; and I am not about to start rooting for the Lakers or any other team. What I am saying is that its time to considerably change the makeup of this team, if Ainge can do it-NOW. Every effort should be made to try to build a younger faster more talented team to compete in the upcoming years rather than wait for this year's version to somehow wake up and play like they are 5 years younger than they are, because that is highly unlikely. Its time for changes, NOW.

Not at all flawed. The analogy doesn't specify a time frame. It's simply a little lesson. Don't judge teams by what happens when they're in a slump if there's a reasonable chance that the slump could be an aberration. Which is true in this case.

I have no idea what you're talking about with respect to age. 40% is 40%, and the Celtics have plenty of time left.

Maybe Ainge will change the makeup, maybe he won't. Either way, I don't intend to be a fairweather fan.

Sam

I understand both points of view and agree with Sam that this team CAN play better than they are currently. How much better would be an appropriate question. Bill Parcells stated and I have always agreed 'You are what your record says you are'. The Celtics are a pretty good team as constituted....4th best in the East....and with veteran wiles could surprise some teams in April & May. But not the elite.

Let's enjoy what we have and look forward to the shrewd moves I believe this organization will make going forward, whether they be immediately or in the off season, and have FUN in our analysis and speculation as to what those moves may be.

I'm no fair weather fan ....have enjoyed the C's for 50 years............and hopefully many more. But as I have told many a group of young men...........'Excuses are for losers'.

I hope we can take heart in a fine brain trust at the helm and find favour in the machinations that take place to maintain a glorious franchise in its quest for greatness.

All the best,

Tark

Tark

Danny is being tested. Damn skippy. I keep asking myself what Red would do here. I just aint sure what the answer is. He'd prolly fleece some fools out of DJ or somesuch.

And Sam I dont think thinking about when it is time to rebuild makes you a fairweather fan. We are all thinking about it. It bears discussion. We knew when these guys were signed that the window was easing down. We all knew that. And glory be they brought home a ring the first year...and just muled the Lakers and Phil. I wonder what Red would do.

KG needs to be sat down til his knee is functional. If that means the rest of the year so be it. I would rather see that and have the guy have a chance at coming back whole with the right mix of rest and rehab than watch the poor guy play himself in the ground like he is. That's just my opinion fellas. Hyperextended knee seems a little tame for the way he is moving. He is a shell of himself out there. I feel for the guy cause it's got to be killing him. But the nba is a no mercy place. Just none...these young guys are licking their chops to get at him.

I am sorely dissapointed so far this year but I think a big part of it was my hopes were just way too high and that's on me. I really thought this years team would make history. I just got to find my way back to being able to enjoy watching my all time fav team and not be so wed to the outcome.

Anyway sorry so negative just had such high hopes...still do.

Jeb,

I'm not calling anyone a fairweather fan, simply stating my intention not to be one. And thinking about a need to rebuild is certainly fair game. However, I do have concerns about people projecting the future during a period that I do not consider normal. On December 25, the Celtics had just beaten Orlando and were 23-5. A little more than a month later, they're in a slump that's quite obviously associated with a continuing volatile situation that has introduced many factors that seem out of character. Is that sufficiently "stable" evidence to warrant advocating that the team be "blown up?" I think not. No more than a one-month Yankee slump (regardless of when it occurred) was sufficient evidence to warrant advocating that the Bronx Bombers be "blown up."

It's not unheard of that injured players can recover. Basketball teams that been working with patchwork lineups indefinitely have been known to improve when that's no longer the case.

I can certainly understand all the conjecture about possibly trading Ray because that's a decision prompted largely by the nature of the Collective Bargaining Agreement. I'm still not sure how I feel about that one. But I'm reading about buying out all the veterans and blowing up the team; and sentiments of that type seem to me to be more gratuitously and prematurely alarmist than simply wondering about the future.

Under some scenarios of relative stability (whether that stability is positive, negative or neutral), present conditions can constitute a good platform for projecting into the future. A team in a state of flux, and with a reasonable chance of recovering from that condition, isn't one of those scenarios.

Sam

Jeb, I don't think that Sam was accusing me of being a fairweather fan-at least I hope that is not the case. This is just a discussion about what each of us feels is best for the team at this point in time as well as what expectations we have for the rest of the season. I believe that I have adequately supported my position with data and facts that indicate that the team's performance so far does not warrant keeping the nucleus intact. I don't think thats what is best for the team in the long term. Sure I hope I am wrong and somehow they turn it around and play like they once could (and some think they still can), but thats not what the evidence (their record) says. As I pointed out, for the season, the team is just one game over .500 against teams that are over .500. Frankly, I don't see that changing significantly. So IMO the best thing to do is to nuke the current team for a better future.

Ok guys mustve read that one wrong. I dont advocate blowing up the team. Def not. But it might be time to start mixing in some youth. I am more and more concerned about Pierce. He was so good at giving the team whatever it needed on a given night for the first 30 games and it just seems he does not have any lift.

His decisions on the court are trending bad and hurting the team. He aint that old and he has fairly low miles to be his age. To me if he gets it going and gets his health back that will go a long way. I dont buy that Pierce is old. I know I said that last night in my post game hate buzz but the facts dont support it.

I love everything about Ray Allen and hope if he does get traded we can sign him back next year. He'd be deadly for 3 more years off the bench.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Thank you, Pumpsie. I tend not to be a name-caller.

I do understand your viewpoint. I simply feel that this team has not had anything close to a consistent opportunity to pool its resources and display what that combination of ingredients can produce. When it has had that opportunity (a process I hope will begin immediately after the all-star break, depending somewhat but not completely, on the health of KG and Pierce) then I'll feel more comfortable with all the prognostications.

I recognize that the immediate kicker is the trade deadline, which will not hang around waiting for this team to prove itself. As much as many of us hate to say it, it could be good business to maximize the "return" on Ray Allen by trading him. But that's a business decision that very likely could have come into play even if the Celtics were still playing .700 ball.

This team is simply not going to be overhauled completely in a week. This season was designated by the brass as one in which the team's fate would be placed in veteran hands, and that's the way it will most likely play out.

The question on which you and I disagree is whether the Celtics have been proven sufficiently lacking to warrant being one of the teams that commits to a rebuilding mentality. The contracts of KG and Paul Pierce militate against doing that on any major scale. So the odds are that this team (possibly with a replacement for Ray and maybe a couple of other small add-ons) is probably what we're going to see for the remainder of this season, like it or not.

As a rabid fan, I'm far too much involved in supporting them to forecast their doom or tilt at windmills regarding the future. Besides, my letter from Danny asking for my opinion must have gotten lost in the mail.

Sam

jeb65 wrote:Ok guys mustve read that one wrong. I dont advocate blowing up the team. Def not. But it might be time to start mixing in some youth. I am more and more concerned about Pierce. He was so good at giving the team whatever it needed on a given night for the first 30 games and it just seems he does not have any lift.

His decisions on the court are trending bad and hurting the team. He aint that old and he has fairly low miles to be his age. To me if he gets it going and gets his health back that will go a long way. I dont buy that Pierce is old. I know I said that last night in my post game hate buzz but the facts dont support it.

I love everything about Ray Allen and hope if he does get traded we can sign him back next year. He'd be deadly for 3 more years off the bench.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

No worries. There is no "correct" plan here. Personally, I think that we should try to get a quality player for Allen, even if we end up signing him again next year for less $$. I am afraid that KG's knees are shot, though I have no evidence for it other than what I observe when he is on the court. Pierce has something left IMO; he should stay. Perkins really needs some help with his offense to maximize his future usefullness to the team. I wonder if the Celtics have hired someone to help him with a couple of low post moves. And Rondo-I am not very happy with him. What he is good at he is very good at. But a starting point guard HAS TO MAKE HIS FREE THROWS and HAS TO HAVE SOME SEMBLANCE OF AN OUTSIDE SHOT. This is his third year in the league, I believe, and each of the first two years were the same. Its just inconceivable to me that he has not worked on his shot and FTs enough to significantly improve them-just unbelievable. I would give him this offseason to improve those glaring weaknesses or I would move him next year if I could.
This year's team is unlikely to advance past the second round, if that. Time to start getting younger.

Sam wrote:Thank you, Pumpsie. I tend not to be a name-caller.

I do understand your viewpoint. I simply feel that this team has not had anything close to a consistent opportunity to pool its resources and display what that combination of ingredients can produce. When it has had that opportunity (a process I hope will begin immediately after the all-star break, depending somewhat but not completely, on the health of KG and Pierce) then I'll feel more comfortable with all the prognostications.

I recognize that the immediate kicker is the trade deadline, which will not hang around waiting for this team to prove itself. As much as many of us hate to say it, it could be good business to maximize the "return" on Ray Allen by trading him. But that's a business decision that very likely could have come into play even if the Celtics were still playing .700 ball.

This team is simply not going to be overhauled completely in a week. This season was designated by the brass as one in which the team's fate would be placed in veteran hands, and that's the way it will most likely play out.

The question on which you and I disagree is whether the Celtics have been proven sufficiently lacking to warrant being one of the teams that commits to a rebuilding mentality. The contracts of KG and Paul Pierce militate against doing that on any major scale. So the odds are that this team (possibly with a replacement for Ray and maybe a couple of other small add-ons) is probably what we're going to see for the remainder of this season, like it or not.

As a rabid fan, I'm far too much involved in supporting them to forecast their doom or tilt at windmills regarding the future. Besides, my letter from Danny asking for my opinion must have gotten lost in the mail.

Sam

HAHAHA. No, the Celtics are unlikely to listen to us or read your forum....maybe if you offered it to them for free (?).
I don't think that we are that far off in our positions. There are not going to be wholesale changes in the roster at this point. I agree with you on that point. I do think that Allen, as much as I like him, should be traded for someone of value, even if its a high draft pick. And if we can get someone of use for Wallace or Davis, do it. I like Daniels' game; I would keep him for sure. This offseason is when major changes should happen. Not now. Its just so clear that we have tons of trouble with younger faster more athletic teams. That HAS to be fixed if the Celtics are to remain competitive.

Okay, Pumpsie, here's a question for you (and, of course, others). Tony Allen is one of the expiring contracts. He's also one of the more athletic Celtics (probably THE most athletic aside perhaps from Rondo). We all know his upsides and downsides. So my question is, what should be done about Tony? Get the most we can out of him and let him walk at the end of the season? Include him in a trade (I believe some clubs would be interested)? Hope to re-sign him if nothing better shows up at the end of the season?

I'm actually on the fence about this one, so I'll be very interested in responses—beginning hopefully with yours, Pumpsie.

Sam

Sam wrote:Okay, Pumpsie, here's a question for you (and, of course, others). Tony Allen is one of the expiring contracts. He's also one of the more athletic Celtics (probably THE most athletic aside perhaps from Rondo). We all know his upsides and downsides. So my question is, what should be done about Tony? Get the most we can out of him and let him walk at the end of the season? Include him in a trade (I believe some clubs would be interested)? Hope to re-sign him if nothing better shows up at the end of the season?

I'm actually on the fence about this one, so I'll be very interested in responses—beginning hopefully with yours, Pumpsie.

Sam

Tony has spent a lot of time hurt. He has flashes of brilliance, and if he ever becomes more consistent as he becomes fully healthy and in rhythm, I would want him on my team. He, by the way, is another guy who should work his tochas off this offseason developing a better outside shot. It is just beyond me why professional basketball players do not do that-aside from some exceptions who went on to greatly improve themselves. As I recall, Jordan and Magic didn't shoot well from the outside, but each put in the time to become a threat. Even Glen Davis developed a midrange jumper that was useful in last year's postseason.
My vote is to keep Tony Allen, if we can.