overreacting and thinking out loud

I think Danny's about to land a borderline star in a a mass trade. Maybe Derrick Favors, or some big of that caliber. Maybe Steven Adams from OKC. Some team with multiple centers and a need for smaller players.

Utah inquired about Avery Bradley last year, reportedly offering their first round pick.

A package of the following players would bring back a nice center: IT4, Bradley, Turner, Young, Sullinger. Some combination of those guys has some real value to a team needing to upgrade their guard rotation, and Sullinger wouldn't leave them lacking for quality bigs.

I can totally see Danny making room on the roster for not only Mickey, but for Holmes and Thornton as well. I think they're both worth developing in-house/under contract, and they're both capable of stepping in and contributing in deep reserve roles.

These guys could develop into long-term rotation players, with upside to be NBA starters.
I think Thornton is already an upgrade over Pressey, while playing with an IT4-like skill set.

Holmes and his ability to knock down the NBA 3 from day one, along with his versatility on both sides of the ball could make him as good or better than Bass, as a rookie.

Thornton could probably bear some of the load from a trade of IT4 and/or Bradley and/or Turner and/or Pressey.


Just thinking out loud and undoubtedly overreacting to summer league, but I just think these two guys along with Mickey are going to end up making the final roster. In part because they won't be miserable with a deep bench role, and in part because they have potential and are on minimal contracts.

Ranbone, I have appreciated your thinking since Day 1, probably since it is so much like mine. Imagine the cap space Danny can create by trading IT or AB and the roster space after including Sully. Holmes and Thornton, Mickey, Hunter, and Rozier plus perhaps even Fair. Danny's assembled quite a group of young very inexpensive talent to go along with the fresh veteran faces he has brought in. Kudos Danny. This SL team rocks.

I still think he's gearing up to grab Noah next July. Watch out NBA.

I really enjoy watching these young guys grow, Mickey, Hunter, Rozier have all made adjustments fast, growing on the fly and are so much more poised and effective than the first game. They really have the ability to help the team going forward as they have the look of guys with the right work ethic to improve further and grow into real players. Now suddenly Holmes and Thornton are coming on like gangbusters too, and we have so many potential players....this is a good problem to have. Competition should be fierce in camp, pushing everyone to improve or get off the bus.

I posted some Marcus Thornton highlights in his thread, but here it is again for those who didn't catch it.

That high-kicking jump shot looks awful until you start seeing them go in all the time. He's almost as pure a shooter as Hunter, perhaps even more-so given Thornton's %s from 3 never slipped below 40% despite being the center of defensive attention for a weak team.



And Holmes shot around 80% from the FT line, and shot great from college 3 most of last season before a concussion in Feb. These guys are real shooters, and Danny and Brad both love hard working, versatile shooters who play defense.

Danny's prayer: "God, please send me a guard who is faster, more agile, and a much better shooter than Rondo. Also please let him be easy to get along with, a great passer, and a relentless pest on defense. Oh yes, and also someone who won't cost me a high draft pick."

God obviously listened to Danny's prayers and sent him MT.

First of all, let me point out that this is summer league, not the real thing.  Marcus Thompson (if that's who "MT" is) had a good game last night.  It is also the first game in summer league where he didn't look like total crap.  Does this game show that he can play against summer league level talent?  Yeah, but it's just that.  One game, against summer league talent.  Let's not start booting proven players off the team bus for a player that has yet to prove he is more than a 40-minute wonder.

Getting back to the original premise of the thread, I don't think you will ever go far wrong if you start and end with the assumption that Danny is about to pull a trigger on a potential blockbuster, Danny never sleeps, but that is ESPECIALLY true after he has spent the last two years re-positioning himself via trades, the accumulation of draft picks and team salary restructuring to provide maximum flexibility PRECISELY so he would be in a position to make an offer the other GM can't refuse.  With Pierce and KG he had an aging core that needed a lot of help but he didn't have the salary cap room, nor the draft picks, nor the quality bench he needed to make an offer to trade for quality back up for Pierce/KG nor attract higher quality free agents as back up for them.  He was stuck exactly where Brooklyn is now, and that's not pretty.  How he convinced Billy King to switch seats with him on the bus to Palookaville, I have no idea, but if you want to know where we'd be if he didn't pull off that blockbuster trade just look at Brooklyn today.

On another thread I listed 3 or 4 teams that had 3 or more centers.  Just about any one of those centers would be an upgrade for us.  I know that Danny is big game hunting and is going for the Woolly Masto-Cousins, but that might take some time.  It might take a month or two of the regular season for WCS to start to show what he's got and show his skills translate well into the NBA, it might take a few months for Koufos to develop some chemistry with his teammates, but my prediction is the clock is ticking on Mt. St. Cousins.  

btw, these trades work, per the NBA trade machine:

1.  Bradley, Sully, Jones for Cousins
2.  Bradley, Sully, Turner for Cousins
3.  Bradley, Kelly, Babb (expiring contract), Young
4.  Bradley, Kelly, Babb, Young, Turner

Jones, Sully, Turner and Olynyk are all pretty interchangeable in the above scenarios because they all make about the same $, Turner a little more than the others but not too much more.  Sully and Turner are both going into their last contract year, so they are expiring contracts.

Throw in a few draft picks for sweeteners and the Kings can load up their roster and eliminate a potentially toxic locker room situation by either replacing a beast with another beast or with a player who will spread the floor for WCS and Koufos.

Danny showed, with how long he kept the 3 Amigos together, that once he finds the guys he wants he'll try and keep them together as long as possible and fill in around them.  I don't think he wants to constantly pull the trigger, I think he feels he has to because he doesn't have who he wants and so he needs to keep swapping pieces in and out to be able to make alternative offers to other GMs.  If/when he gets his man (in my opinion he clearly  has his sights set on Cousins) he'll lock that player in and then fiddle with the others.  Trader Danny didn't trade so much when we had a championship contending team, it is/was when he was trying to get to that core that he was hyper-active.

Danny.  Never.  Sleeps.  Not when he's building.


bob


.

Thornton, not Thompson, but I get your well made point Bob.

It makes sense to exercise cautiion in going crazy over players during Summer League.

BUT

• Depending on Danny's moves in the interim (and I agree that he's probably gearing up for something big), some combination from the group of Mickey, Rozier, Hunter, Thornton, Holmes and Fair ought to make training camp extremely competitive.

• The more of them Danny can keep or stash in the DL, the better I'll like it, because I'd be far more excited about seeing any one of them fill in for an injured Celt than I ever got from seeing Young doing his the yo yo commute.

• Based on my "some is forever" theory, it could be argued that the totality of the skills demonstrated by both Rozier and Thornton already equal or surpass the totality of the skills demonstrated by Rondo. (Once a player has demonstrated something a few times, it's irrefutable proof that the player possesses that particular skill.  It's then a matter of refining and enhancing it over time and cultivating it against big league competition, which is where some players succeed and others fail.)

I believe iit could be argued that, at this stage in their development, Rozier and Thornton compare very favorably with Rajon Rondo. Rondo's obviously a better passer, although I believe his capacity to run a team may have deteriorated somewhat.  But I've seen some pretty good floor vision and passing from Rozier and Thornton.  And I believe both of them have the capabilities and mentalities to become pass-first guards.

Rondo is also be a better rebounder for a point guard.  (I've decided to start using the PG term again, in hopes I've made my point—so to speak—that the term doesn't sufficiently emphasize the floor general aspects of the position's duties.)  But I'm not picking my PG based on his rebounding abilities.  That would be as stupid as acquiring a big because of his three-point shooting.  Oh, wait!

Anyway, I believe both Rozier and Thornton are not simply more attuned to pushing the ball than Rondo was—MUCH more attuned—but they are also blurs when the do it, even after made field goals by the other team.  That skill, alone, could easily add at least a dozen points to a team's total by catching the other team before they've established their defensive positions.

Rondo basically has two moves to the hoop—the drive to the left with the back-hand lefty flip to the basket and the little floater from the lane.  But his driving ability is diluted by the fact that he's scared of being fouled rather than hoping to be fouled.  Both Rozier and Thornton are much better free throw shooters and are very adept at getting to the basket a la Isaiah Thomas.

Moveover, although Rondo has hit more threes in recent years, I have no confidence in seeing him hoist one from the perimeter.  Rozier and Thornton have made enough to convince me that the three is a legitimate shot for both of them rather than being an anomaly.

Another area in which Rondo improved in recent years was the mid-range jumper.  I believe this is an area in which both Rozier and Thornton have to improve, although at least they're not afraid to try the shot.

Eight years ago, I might have laughed at the thought of Rondo's PG defense being inferior to that of any other PG.  But, right now, I'd take the man-to-man defense of Rozier and Thornton over that of Rondo by a significant margin.

So, adding up the pros and cons, and considering the fact that Rondo may have peaked while Rozier and Thornton have all sorts of potential for further development, I'd say that these two guys lack only repetitions and experience to be better for the future direction of the Celtics than Rondo would have been.

• Of course, I recognize that comparing them with Rondo is somewhat irrelevant because Rajon is no longer with the team.  But I feel equally sanguine about comparing them with Smart at the PG position.

The main reason is actually Smart's most obvious strength—his defense.  He is truly developing into a great defensive player.  But his defense is FAR less great against opposing blurs than agains opposing players more his own size.  Yes, he can overpower smaller guys, but he has to catch them first, and there's the rub.  Rozier and Thornton are like BobH without the charm.  They're veritable pit bulls on defense.  They move their feet beautifully, stay in front of their men (Thornton a little more so than Rozier), and are legitimate disrupters.

Otherwise, in terms of shooting from the floor (including threes), free throws, passing, and running a team, I don't really see any major differences between the potential of Smart and the potential of Rozier and Thornton.

Pending developments over the rest of the summer, I'd be perfectly happy to see the Celtics go into next season with a PG rotation of Smart, Rozier and Thornton.  That rotation would give Smart a lot of minutes at SG, with the result that Bradley or Thomas (preferably Bradley from my point of view) would definitely be expendable.  Turner (if he's still with the team) could also fill in at either PG or SG.  In other words, I'd like to see a six-man rotation at the guard positions of Smart, Turner, Thomas, Rozier and Thornton and Hunter.  That would leave seven active roster slots and two inactive roster slots for the other three positions.  Brad would also have the option of sitting Rozier or Thornton if he had the need to heavy up at a bigger position for a given game.

Please don't patronize an old guy by telling me that it's premature to make judgments.  I know that.  It's why god invented the rest of the summer and training camp.  But I do have faith in my "some is forever" theory.

Sam

For three straight years, Thornton has averaged over 19 ppg on 40% 3pt shooting, while taking over 7 3PTAs a game each season. He's been an 80% FT shooter over those three years, averaging 5 FTAs per game. That helped give him a 60% true shooting % over those three years. Steph Curry's true shooting % at Davidson was 62% over 3 years.

In the same year that Steph Curry just won NBA MVP and the NBA Championship, Danny is going to give Thornton every chance to make the final Celtics roster. Pressey was just waved, and Pressey's downfall was never being able to knock down the 3.

When Thornton dominated the Portsmouth Invitational Tournament, or whatever they call that Combine type event for under-the-radar seniors, Thornton earned an invite to the NBA Combine. Just barely. And once he got there, Thornton tested out as the most athletic player in attendance. THE fastest 3/4 court sprint, second in max vertical leap at 43" (one inch short of Zach LaVine), and top or near top agility.

Now that Thornton is comfortable at this level that is much higher than anything he faced at William and Mary, who rarely if ever even faced Division 1A teams, Thornton is showing that his elite explosiveness and quickness translates to this level, which all previous evidence indicated it would, but it had not been seen yet.

Similarly, everybody is now realizing that Kristaps Porzingis' 7'2" height is the same height when he gets on the basketball court against summer league players. It shouldn't have come as a surprise, but many people take an "I'll believe it when I see it" attitude about even basic, non-controversial facts that they haven't seen personally but have little reason to doubt.

Two years ago, Greek Freak was written off as a reach, and as a long-term project not even close to being ready to play in the NBA. People, including most scouts, were somehow skeptical of the athleticism he showed in video from Greece against Greek Second Division competition.
The level of competition around Greek Freak was low, but scouts and opinionators let that distraction prevent them from Seeing the athleticism that was right in front of their eyes, because it was surrounded by scrubs.

Thornton's quickness and explosiveness are not going to disappear tomorrow, and it wasn't a fluke. It's just the first chance he's had to play against good competition, as a result of being a late-comer to basketball and a late-bloomer who didn't even make varsity until his Jr year in high school.

I don't know exactly how the rest of summer league is going to go, but I'm excited as heck for training camp and pre-season. I suspect Pressey isn't the last player Thornton will make expendable.

sam wrote:It makes sense to exercise cautiion in going crazy over players during Summer League.

BUT

• Depending on Danny's moves in the interim (and I agree that he's probably gearing up for something big), some combination from the group of Mickey, Rozier, Hunter, Thornton, Holmes and Fair ought to make training camp extremely competitive.

• The more of them Danny can keep or stash in the DL, the better I'll like it, because I'd be far more excited about seeing any one of them fill in for an injured Celt than I ever got from seeing Young doing his the yo yo commute.

• Based on my "some is forever" theory, it could be argued that the totality of the skills demonstrated by both Rozier and Thornton already equal or surpass the totality of the skills demonstrated by Rondo.  (Once a player has demonstrated something a few times, it's irrefutable proof that the player possesses that particular skill.  It's then a matter of refining and enhancing it over time and cultivating it against big league competition, which is where some players succeed and others fail.)

I believe iit could be argued that, at this stage in their development, Rozier and Thornton compare very favorably with Rajon Rondo.  Rondo's obviously a better passer, although I believe his capacity to run a team may have deteriorated somewhat.  But I've seen some pretty good floor vision and passing from Rozier and Thornton.  And I believe both of them have the capabilities and mentalities to become pass-first guards.

Rondo is also be a better rebounder for a point guard.  (I've decided to start using the PG term again, in hopes I've made my point—so to speak—that the term doesn't sufficiently emphasize the floor general aspects of the position's duties.)  But I'm not picking my PG based on his rebounding abilities.  That would be as stupid as acquiring a big because of his three-point shooting.  Oh, wait!

Anyway, I believe both Rozier and Thornton are not simply more attuned to pushing the ball than Rondo was—MUCH more attuned—but they are also blurs when the do it, even after made field goals by the other team.  That skill, alone, could easily add at least a dozen points to a team's total by catching the other team before they've established their defensive positions.

Rondo basically has two moves to the hoop—the drive to the left with the back-hand lefty flip to the basket and the little floater from the lane.  But his driving ability is diluted by the fact that he's scared of being fouled rather than hoping to be fouled.  Both Rozier and Thornton are much better free throw shooters and are very adept at getting to the basket a la Isaiah Thomas.

Moveover, although Rondo has hit more threes in recent years, I have no confidence in seeing him hoist one from the perimeter.  Rozier and Thornton have made enough to convince me that the three is a legitimate shot for both of them rather than being an anomaly.

Another area in which Rondo improved in recent years was the mid-range jumper.  I believe this is an area in which both Rozier and Thornton have to improve, although at least they're not afraid to try the shot.

Eight years ago, I might have laughed at the thought of Rondo's PG defense being inferior to that of any other PG.  But, right now, I'd take the man-to-man defense of Rozier and Thornton over that of Rondo by a significant margin.

So, adding up the pros and cons, and considering the fact that Rondo may have peaked while Rozier and Thornton have all sorts of potential for further development, I'd say that these two guys lack only repetitions and experience to be better for the future direction of the Celtics than Rondo would have been.

• Of course, I recognize that comparing them with Rondo is somewhat irrelevant because Rajon is no longer with the team.  But I feel equally sanguine about comparing them with Smart at the PG position.

The main reason is actually Smart's most obvious strength—his defense.  He is truly developing into a great defensive player.  But his defense is FAR less great against opposing blurs than agains opposing players more his own size.  Yes, he can overpower smaller guys, but he has to catch them first, and there's the rub.  Rozier and Thornton are like BobH without the charm.  They're veritable pit bulls on defense.  They move their feet beautifully, stay in front of their men (Thornton a little more so than Rozier), and are legitimate disrupters.

Otherwise, in terms of shooting from the floor (including threes), free throws, passing, and running a team, I don't really see any major differences between the potential of Smart and the potential of Rozier and Thornton.

Pending developments over the rest of the summer, I'd be perfectly happy to see the Celtics go into next season with a PG rotation of Smart, Rozier and Thornton.  That rotation would give Smart a lot of minutes at SG, with the result that Bradley or Thomas (preferably Bradley from my point of view) would definitely be expendable.  Turner (if he's still with the team) could also fill in at either PG or SG.  In other words, I'd like to see a six-man rotation at the guard positions of Smart, Turner, Thomas, Rozier and Thornton and Hunter.  That would leave seven active roster slots and two inactive roster slots for the other three positions.  Brad would also have the option of sitting Rozier or Thornton if he had the need to heavy up at a bigger position for a given game.

Please don't patronize an old guy by telling me that it's premature to make judgments.  I know that.  It's why god invented the rest of the summer and training camp.  But I do have faith in my "some is forever" theory.

Sam

sam,

"Rozier and Thornton are like BobH without the charm."? That's like a snake, except without its warmth.


bob


.

Sam, I'm so excited that you're so excited about Thornton! He's a beautiful player.

Your Some is Forever theory is actually increasingly believed in by NBA scouts and executives, as it should.

That Smart could shoot 6-7 from three in a game in college, combined with his excellent 2-3 game shooting samples, convinced me that he was better than his averages, and at least had the potential to dominate games on both ends of the court.

Zach LaVine was a freshman who shot over 50% from college 3 over his very first 19 college games. That told me that he's not just an average shooter, even though he finished the season 36% from 3 and wasn't regarded as an above average shooter by most before the draft.

And speaking of LaVine, that's who I compared Thornton to a couple weeks ago. Skinny, hyper-athletic combo-guards who can shoot it from deep and get into the lane at will with their elite first steps.

I don't mind if I'm wrong on this guy. Before Steph Curry changed the game, guys like Thornton didn't always get an extended trial period to settle down and start shooting comfortably. Outside shooting is the most finicky skill in basketball, and dozens of poor man's Steph Curry have seen their NBA opportunity to disappear after an untimely summer league slump.

Now that the league is changing, to the point that shooting ability is now just about the most important trait for point guards to have, I think we'll see more small school guys like Thornton get nice long opportunities to prove they belong in the NBA.

And Thornton's combination of athleticism and elite skill level is actually extremely rare. Most would-be poor man's steph curry guys are lacking in athleticism.

Just compare the Lakers' top draft pick D'Angelo Russell, who drafted seemingly without regard to his athleticism. How is that guy going to stay in front of Rozier and Thornton?

I would be very surprised if Thornton and Holmes make this roster.  

Mickey looks to stick because he has more then exceeded our expectations.

If there is one certainty in all of this it is a reality that no one really knows what Danny will do except for Danny

The most likely candidates to be traded come from our group of forwards.

I would be surprised if Avery was traded although Hunter may one day be able to start for the Celtics.  If Marcus Smart had shown the ability to be a viable off-guard (can make shots consistently) then Avery would be expendable.  Therefore I do not see the Celtics moving Bradley at this time.  There is no quality depth at SG yet.

The collection of forwards demands player movement.  Of all of the potential trade candidates Sullinger may be the one that goes.  But a deal could involve the recently signed Jerebko and Crowder and/or KO or any combination of these players along with draft picks.

There are a lot of inter-changeable parts at the 4 but the 5 is still the area where an upgrade is needed.

Danny said that he is not looking to trade in order to strengthen one position if it weakens another position.

We have 2 1/2 PG's so I do not see Thomas being moved.  His ability to trigger the offense off the bench was huge during the playoff run last year.  Smart is still an average floor general and Rozier is a rookie and a few years removed from developing the consistency to run a high powered up-tempo offense.  Until those guys are ready (if and when), Turner is our best option for running the offense as a starter.  If you trade Turner who will run the offense?

What is with this fascination with Cousins?  

Aside from the fact that he is  a beast that can rebound and score, he is an average defender and does not get up and down the floor fast.  He is actually a better fit for the Doc Rivers/Rondo offense.  I suppose some people think that because they drafted WCS that Cousins is available and we have all heard rumors about coach karl not wanting him on the team.  But we really do not know what is fact or fiction.  We should however conclude that WCS is certainly a major downgrade at center in the scoring and rebounding area.  We may also want to enjoy hearing about the misfit trio of Rondo/Cousins/Josh Smith.   Let's not break up that shipwreck.

dboss

dboss,

On what do you base your comment that "Smart is still an above average floor general?" I don't see that at all. He's an opportunist who sees openings and makes good passes for assists. But, in my book, a floor general dictates the pace of a game; strategizes to create openings rather than just taking advantage of openings that happen to appear; is more likely to find a teammate with time running down than to default to a long three; is not as likely to take an ill-advised early three as to let a play develop in the half court; moves the troops around to create opportunities rather than signaling primarily when he wants a screen set for himself; keeps the offense moving rather than standing outside and pondering (shades of Rondo).

Marcus may be slowing improving on all these fronts (although I'm not seeing evidence of it), but I don't believe he's instinctively comfortable on offense. If there's one position in basketball that calls for instincts, is point guard.

I'm not claiming that either Rozier or Thornton is a true floor general either. But I believe their dynamic and instinctive styles of play will, over time, lend themselves to developing more legitimate floor general tendencies that I'm seeing in Smart.

Sam

sam wrote:dboss,

On what do you base your comment that "Smart is still an above average floor general?"  I don't see that at all.  He's an opportunist who sees openings and makes good passes for assists.  But, in my book, a floor general dictates the pace of a game; strategizes to create openings rather than just taking advantage of openings that happen to appear; is more likely to find a teammate with time running down than to default to a long three; is not as likely to take an ill-advised early three as to let a play develop in the half court; moves the troops around to create opportunities rather than signaling primarily when he wants a screen set for himself; keeps the offense moving rather than standing outside and pondering (shades of Rondo).

Marcus may be slowing improving on all these fronts (although I'm not seeing evidence of it), but I don't believe he's instinctively comfortable on offense.  If there's one position in basketball that calls for instincts, is point guard.

I'm not claiming that either Rozier or Thornton is a true floor general either.  But I believe their dynamic and instinctive styles of play will, over time, lend themselves to developing more legitimate floor general tendencies that I'm seeing in Smart.

Sam

Sam that is the opposite of what I said. Please read again

lol

dboss

Dboss,

So I inserted the word "above." What's wrong with that. I often insert words in your posts just to make things interesting, and you haven't noticed it before? LOL.

So did you mean your comment as a negative, as in "Smart's still only an average floor general?" I don't even see him as average. But he has surprised me before (in his ability to hit the three—but he's wildly inconsistent). Maybe he'll do it again. We'll see.

In the meantime, sorry for the error. It was obviously not intentional. Just stupid.

Sam

I'm excited Boston is moving away from the concept of a floor general. Everybody on the team feels more invested in the team and the game, and the unpredictability is much harder to defend against and prepare for.

I hope they're not abandoning the floor general concept. It's wonderful to have all players heavily invested in the team, but the unpredictability of a floor general-less team may sometimes work against the team rather than on behalf of the team. Especially in those games that are grinders. The presence of a player who can maintain his poise and create organization where none seem to exist can be an extremely important element of a contending team.

People have argued that DJ was not a classic floor general. Well, he had a teammate who was....Larry. I think a good floor general is able to rise above the mayhem of the moment to analyze and anticipate when all around him are playing reactionary basketball—playing mainly in the moment.

So I respectfully disagree with those who say that a floor general is unnecessary if a team has a motion offense or even a triangle offense because not everything goes perfectly as hoped all the time; and that's when a floor general can become invaluable.

Sam

DJ, Larry...you've got me thinking about Celtic greats. Today on the Dan Patrick show he brought up among his cast the subject of who are the 4 greatest living NBA players/former players. Everyone picked MJ and Larry. Some also picked Kareem. One picked Magic, one picked Oscar. One picked LeBron. Only one picked Bill Russell.

So myopic.

Sam

Average is average.  It is not negative or positive.  It is in the middle.  I like Smart as a basketball player but as you stated he is not a natural PG.  I also meant it in the context of trading Thomas.  In other words we would have a real depth issue at the point if we traded Thomas and had to primarily rely on Marcus to run the show since both Rozier and Thornton are developmental projects in an NBA competitive environment.

Rozier is the more likely candidate to emerge as the lead guard (PG) or floor general but he still needs to develop.  

Thornton may get an invite to training camp and a possible offer to play in Maine but there is no way he is making the 15 man roster.  

All the quickness being displayed during the summer league should not be expected once the season starts.

These summer league players are going against...summer league players.  I am not prone to get too excited over any of our draft picks although I must say they definitely have some talent.

overall I do not necessarily agree with the picks that Danny made but they are good players from what I have seen.

I stated before the draft that we need to add two shooters and 2 bigs.  I did not specify a position although we both agree that a center would enhance both ends.  Danny got a potential great shooter in Hunter (his range is unreal...I would venture to say 'Curry like') He got a # 1 pick in Mickey with a 2nd round selection.  Added a PG in Rozier that played in an aggressive s system.  Went after a stretch 4 in Johnson who also has multi positional capabilities and finally got David Lee a player I have also wanted to see in a Celtics uniform.

Not bad considering everything and still there is money in the bank for even bigger deals.

I do not suppose that I could be more positive about these transactions than I am now.

The notion that this team has enhanced it's ability to run, shoot and defend all over the court is great.

dboss

worcester wrote:DJ, Larry...you've got me thinking about Celtic greats. Today on the Dan Patrick show he brought up among his cast the subject of who are the 4 greatest living NBA players/former players. Everyone picked MJ and Larry. Some also picked Kareem. One picked Magic, one picked Oscar. One picked LeBron. Only one picked Bill Russell.

So myopic.

worcester,

For one thing, as Sam has pointed out many times, Russell might not be the greatest player of all time but he is the greatest winner of all time.

Secondly, what do you think all the players named have in common except for Russell?  Considering the demographics that watch/listen to Dan Patrick I'd say it's that all the callers were alive when MJ, Bird, Kareem, Magic and even Oscar played.  I'll bet none of them were alive when Russ played, never saw him play live.  Same with Wilt, who was completely forgotten.  The question was "who are the greatest living NBA players/former players" and the listeners egotized it to mean "who are the greatest I've seen in my lifetime?

Because, doncha know, everything is all about us...


bob


.

dboss wrote:Sam

Average is average.  It is not negative or positive.  It is in the middle.  I like Smart as a basketball player but as you stated he is not a natural PG.  I also meant it in the context of trading Thomas.  In other words we would have a real depth issue at the point if we traded Thomas and had to primarily rely on Marcus to run the show since both Rozier and Thornton are developmental projects in an NBA competitive environment.

Rozier is the more likely candidate to emerge as the lead guard (PG) or floor general but he still needs to develop.  

Thornton may get an invite to training camp and a possible offer to play in Maine but there is no way he is making the 15 man roster.  

All the quickness being displayed during the summer league should not be expected once the season starts.

These summer league players are going against...summer league players.  I am not prone to get too excited over any of our draft picks although I must say they definitely have some talent.

overall I do not necessarily agree with the picks that Danny made but they are good players from what I have seen.

I stated before the draft that we need to add two shooters and 2 bigs.  I did not specify a position although we both agree that a center would enhance both ends.  Danny got a potential great shooter in Hunter (his range is unreal...I would venture to say 'Curry like') He got a # 1 pick in Mickey with a 2nd round selection.  Added a PG in Rozier that played in an aggressive s system.  Went after a stretch 4 in Johnson who also has multi positional capabilities and finally got David Lee a player I have also wanted to see in a Celtics uniform.

Not bad considering everything and still there is money in the bank for even bigger deals.

I do not suppose that I could be more positive about these transactions than I am now.

The notion that this team has enhanced it's ability to run, shoot and defend all over the court is great.

dboss

dboss,

What a difference 3 weeks make, huh?  After the draft, most of us were lining up along the ledge.  After free agency started on 7/1 most of us were ready to jump off that ledge and only a few of us, like me, were calling for patience.  There would still be time to jump later, what's the rush?  Now, as you have pointed out so well, the outlook isn't so bleak after all.  Hell, I think I even caught Cowens wiping the drool off his chin after watching Mickey for a few games.

Hunter has unreal range.  We've had some good shooters come through, both in green and on visiting teams, but I honestly have trouble thinking of any besides Curry to whom distance is so meaningless as RJ Hunter.  I'm not saying he is as clutch as Curry, but then, neither was Curry when he first came in the league.  I'm not saying he can do it with hands in his face and bodies draped all over him as Curry, but then, neither was Curry when he first came in the league.  Kobe and MJ were great scorers but you didn't see them taking 28'ers because they prefer the additional daylight than the proximity.  If anything, that might be symptomatic of Hunter's undoing.  He's so physically frail he needs to avoid contact, rather than a player like Smart who likes it and can take and play through it.

Rozier is a blur.  SO quick.  Killer crossover, which translates into every level of balling.  He gets his shoulder past you and then it's one-two dribbles and he's at the front of the rim.  It won't be until pre-season, at the earliest, where we see how/what he does when the bigger, faster, more experienced bigs of the real NBA rotate over quickly.  Bradley can penetrate too, he just has trouble finishing at the rim.  Rozier is the same size as Bradley.  Bradley, however, doesn't have Rozier's court vision (I think.  I hope).  We'll see, but very promising so far.

Do I still want that center?  Hell yeah, and Danny still out there taking cuts at the ball, the inning isn't over yet, but between Johnson and Mickey we have already significantly upgraded our interior shot blocking/intimidating corp and that was one of our biggest glaring weaknesses last year.  Shooting too, another weakness of ours last year, upgraded with the addition of Hunter.  One could argue that Rozier is a better shooter than Pressey and so that's an upgrade in shooting at the point guard position as well as SG.

You nailed it, though, you nailed it. This is just summer league, where bubble players compete to see if they can climb on top of the next, bigger bubble.


bob


.

Bob

We are in total agreement here.

Hunter's range is not normal.  But the biggest surprise is how well he handles the ball, dribble penetration and kick outs, his quickness and his defense.  Seems to get a lot of deflections.  He is certainly a more classic SG given his length.  A few more pounds of muscle will serve to make him a significant offensive contributor.

Rozier's quickness is not the thing that stands out to me.  there are a lot of quick PG in the NBA.  Rozier however has that special stop and go hesitation (reminds me of Jeff Teague) that enhances his natural quickness and in addition he is able to change direction when driving to the rim in a split second.  He has to work on his decision making and jumper but he does fit into the system.  One of the things that we saw last year is that the bench was the group that pushed the tempo.  Once Rozier migrates to the starting lineup there will be no slow down.  I however do not see Rozier as an off the ball guard.  

All of the new players including the vets Lee and Johnson make the Celtics a better team, and a deeper team with Players who can bring positional flexibility.

Now once Danny makes that big time trade the Celts will be right in the thick of things in the east.

dboss

dboss wrote:Bob

We are in total agreement here.

Hunter's range is not normal.  But the biggest surprise is how well he handles the ball, dribble penetration and kick outs, his quickness and his defense.  Seems to get a lot of deflections.  He is certainly a more classic SG given his length.  A few more pounds of muscle will serve to make him a significant offensive contributor.

Rozier's quickness is not the thing that stands out to me.  there are a lot of quick PG in the NBA.  Rozier however has that special stop and go hesitation (reminds me of Jeff Teague) that enhances his natural quickness and in addition he is able to change direction when driving to the rim in a split second.  He has to work on his decision making and jumper but he does fit into the system.  One of the things that we saw last year is that the bench was the group that pushed the tempo.  Once Rozier migrates to the starting lineup there will be no slow down.  I however do not see Rozier as an off the ball guard.  

All of the new players including the vets Lee and Johnson make the Celtics a better team, and a deeper team with Players who can bring positional flexibility.

Now once Danny makes that big time trade the Celts will be right in the thick of things in the east.

dboss

dboss,

Yeah, I've seen that stutter step of his before.  I saw him do it last night.  That is nice.

If we look at the teams in the east who we would be fight with at the bottom of the playoff standings, who has changed the most?

Charlotte - added Batum and Kaminsky and Spencer Hawes, lost Gerald Henderson.  Net plus.
Brooklyn - added Barf-nani, lost D-Will.  Net loss.  Sneaked into the 8th spot last year but will be worse this year.
Indiana - added Jordan Hill, Miles Turner, Monta Ellis and lost Hibbert and Scola.  Net plus, I think.
Orlando - added Mario Hezonja, CJ Watson.  Net plus, but not much.
Washington - added Oubre, lost Pierce.  Net minus.
Detroit - lost Josh Smith, added Ilyasova.  Net push, I think.  Smith is more capable of BIG games, but Ilyasova is more steady.
Miami - added Justice Winslow, Gerald Green.  Net minus.  DWade is a year older, Bosh may not be healthy, Birdman is 37.  Weak front court.

Atlanta, Cleveland, Milwaukee and Chicago are out of our reach at this time.

So, considering that Danny is still rolling the ball forward, we have (in my opinion) more daylight between our closest competitors (Brooklyn and Miami), more competition on our heels (Indy and Charlotte) but some blue sky ahead of us with the decline of Washington and Toronto.  We were in the 7th spot last year, due to going 24-12 in our last 36 games.  We're not going to go .670 over next season, but if we go .500 we'd be in the 6th slot instead of 7th.  Milwaukee, at 42-42 last year, will go up.  Washington at 46-36 will come down and I think Toronto at 49-33 will come down too.  It's not inconceivable to me that, just with the team we have today, that we could go 44-38.  That's only 4 more wins.  At this time last year, we were thinking we could go from 25 wins up to 30, maybe 32.  A few of us thought that maybe we could even reach 35.  That's twice the 4 I'm talking about here.  A stronger start of the season and some internal growth could give us that.  If Washington loses 3 games, there's our #6 spot.  If Toronto loses 5 or 6, then we're at #5.

Yeah, I know this is all speculation.  Injuries, future trades and God knows what else could make all this moot but if you just take a snapshot of where we are now, we're due for an upgrade in the standings.  As Brad says, his job is to coach the players he has, not the ones he'd like to have.  Well, looking at the team we have today, and not at the one we'd like to have, we're better.  I am not aware of any reason why Danny would make a trade and take a step backwards, like he did in 2013.  We don't have an aging core, we don't have any horse-choking contracts beyond this year.  There's no deadwood to clear away, no decks to clear, no boat-anchor contracts.  If Danny trades now, it's for some choice meat.


bob


.

So true Bob.

Bob

It seems every team wants to play up tempo now.

The Celts are already a year or so ahead of the curve.

What we do not know about those other teams is if the players they added actually fit into their system

Charlotte will be a slower team with kaminsky and Hawes.  They are pretty much the same player

Chicago has a new coach so who is to say that the team is able to change their grind it out style and become  more of an offensive team.  Plus they look to me as a team that will break down physically.  Gasol and Rose are big questions marks as far as durability is concerned and now even Noah is starting to show the wear and tear of playing

Indiana is also a question mark.  They want to run but that team will only go as far as Paul George can take them.  Monta is a selfish player and George Hill is an adequate if not under whelming PG.  The rookie Turner should help as well as Jordan but I do not see significant upgrades there either.

Detroit lost Monroe so they also lost their main post scorer unless fouling the center is outlawed.

Miami also has the kid Whiteside at center.  He is a nutcase but he is a solid nutcase.  They should regain some of their swag this year.  Their PG play however is not high end.

The Brooklyn Bums are not impressive no matter who they lose or add to the team.

Atlanta is interesting.  While they lost Carol to the Raptors they did pick up Tim Hardaway Jr but the big deal was to get Splitter from the Spurs.  Atlanta has been in need of more length and inside scoring and Splitter will help them a lot.  Plus he will fit in perfectly with the Atlanta/Spurs style of basketball.

The only team that is significantly ahead of us in the east is Cleveland.  They have their big three in place and as long as they stay healthy they are the obvious favorites to win the East.

In order to make at run at them the Celtics will need a brute to deal with Tristan Thompson on the glass.  I thought maybe Sullinger could be that guy but when Sully is not launching 3 point shots he is shoving people aside at the buffet table.

dboss