Post-Game Thread - Preseason vs Knicks, Away

[bobheckler]

We played poorly.  We had no energy, no intensity.  We were sloppy with the ball.  Brad preaches the importance of valuing the ball and focusing on each possession.  We didn't do it.  The Knicks did.  They played like the game meant something to them.  I'd say they won the 50/50 balls, but they weren't 50/50 last night, they were 80/20 Knicks.  They had 52 rebounds last night, 18 offensive.  Lopez had 5 and Sully's man, Kyle O'Quinn, had 4.  Yuck.  We had 57 rebounds, but that's because they couldn't throw the ball in the Hudson from the mezzanine deck of the Staten Island Ferry.

I had the Knick feed, so I had Clyde chiming and rhyming.  Here's a couple of the things he said last night:  

A.  "the players come and go, but the philosophy doesn't change. The Celtics like to run and gun".  This was in the first quarter when we had 11 fast break points.  That was as many, if more, than we had on average for a game during the Rondo era.

B.  "moving and grooving" and "there's the evolution of the NBA there, that guy is 7'0", moving and grooving nicely".  Referring to Kelly in the 1st quarter.

C.  "driving and improvizing".  Turner, during the 1st quarter.

After the 1st quarter there were no quotable quotes by Clyde about the Celtics that grabbed me.  That should tell you something because the man lives to create rhymes and alliterations.  Even then, despite the 1st 32 point quarter, we had 5 TOs.  We were very, very sloppy with the ball all game.  The guy who wants to start at PG had 2 assists and 2 TOs.  We won the first quarter 32-31 and looked like crap except for Amir and some scoring, but poor floor generalship and poor defense on Jose Calderon by IT.  We thought "ok, we'll get our act together now and blow them out".  Didn't happen.  We did not get our act together, but they did.

1.  Another power start by Amir.  We scored 32 points in the first quarter and 8 of them were his.  He played 11 minutes in the 1st quarter, only 5 in the 2nd for a total of 16 for the game (he did not play at all in the 2nd half), but never scored again.  You can see what Danny saw in him.  He's very sound fundamentally.  Not particularly gifted athletically, other than in height, but he does the little things.

2.  Thanks to Smart's illness Thomas has had the opportunity to audition for starter.  His point guard skills are still, in my opinion, "under development".  He ended up with 5 assists and 2 TOs (meaning he went 3-0 assists:TOs for the next 3 quarters) but that is not a particularly impressive box score.  What's more, it didn't look and/or feel like he was being a general out there, directing the troops and feeding them the sugar.  Point guards are supposed to create coherency to the offense and it didn't feel or look coherent when IT was running it.  He doesn't have that fine eye of knowing what pass to make and when.  He is, and I suspect will go back to being, the poster child for a Sixth Man and I'm more than happy with that.  

3.  In the Battle-of-the-Headliners it was a mixed bag.  Crowder played only 15 minutes and did a very credible job of holding Melo, who played 23, to 8 points on 4-14 shooting.  Jae had 4 points himself but 6 rebounds to 4 for Melo.  So, Melo won the battle by a smidge but if you can hold Melo down to those type of number on 23 minutes you can sleep well that night.  Melo is not the guy who beat us, and that's another story.  Our headliner, such as we have one, would have been David Lee and his return to MSG.  In 23 rusty minutes he had an underwhelming 4 points on 2-8 shooting and the embarrassment of being blocked by Carmelo Anthony on a drive to the rim.  Melo, of course, howled like a Werewolf in London when he did it, and then proceeded to brick his next few shots.  I guess you gotta take your joy where you find it.  Lee's worst game pre-season to-date.

4.  Bradley had 8 rebounds.  He was really in there, going after the ball.  He had a beautiful block on the rusty Aaron Afflalo straight up.  No flying in from the side or come from behinder, Afflalo put a quick fake on him and went up and Bradley stopped him cold.  As a former defensively-oriented guard Walt Frazier had a lot of nice things to say about Avery Bradley last night and especially about that block.  I forgot the Knicks picked up Afflalo.  He is a nice upgrade from whatever stiff they had starting for them last year.

5.  Now, on to the Mastodon Mamba, danced between Jared Sullinger and Kyle O'Quinn.  Sadly, O'Quinn won this one.  He outplayed Sully on both ends, blocking a Sully mid-range shot too.  Sully was 1-8 on the night.  2 of his shots were inside and the rest were from outside the paint.  What was John Lucas yelling at you all summer, Sully?  "Get your ass down in the paint!", that's what!  Sully had 10 boards, and a few were tough, traffic rebounds but most were stat boards, rebounds grabbed with nobody near and during garbage time.  One of his stat boards was stripped from him and laid in by the Knicks.  He just doesn't look like the same player as the previous years.  His new body notwithstanding, he still has no lift at all.  O'Quinn was charged with a flagrant 1 foul on Sully for coming over his shoulder and shoving him down (was more of a flagrant 2 than the one Jack delivered on Jerebko 2 days earlier but...) and Sully responded with some aggression in subsequent plays.  Nice to see he still has some ganas and isn't just going to be frumpy until Danny just says "enough!" and trades him.  Sully then proceeded to brick 3 of his next 4 fritos.

6.  Kelly had a miserable night too.  1-7 puts him in the same shooting ballpark as Sully, except he did it in fewer minutes.  It was remarked on the Game On thread that Kelly played matador defense on penetrations, not stopping layups.  They all did that.  Zeller, Sully, Lee, Kelly all waved at penetrators in passing.  Brad needs to have a chat with them, seriously.  It was bad defense.  We don't have shot blockers, other than Mickey, which means players have to be good positional defenders.  They have to step in front of players that are not their men and last night nobody did it.  Kelly did have two excellent back-to-back, man-to-man defensive stands against Kevin Seraphin who took him down low in the low blocks.  Two attempts, two misses by Seraphin who is a good offensive player.  Seraphin ended with 2 points on 1-8.  Are you starting to see a pattern?  NOBODY'S bigs had good shooting nights.

7.  Except for Tyler Zeller.  I was underwhelmed with his defense in the beginning, he was slow on defensive rotations, and he wasn't hitting his outside shots but he was 5-9 on the night for 12 points and 4 boards in just 14 minutes off the bench.  /36 mpg that's 31 points and 10 rebounds.  Yeah, I know it's stretching it to extrapolate 14 minutes all the way out to 36, I'm just trying to make the point that 12 and 4 in 14 is productive.  4-6 from the paint and 1-3 from outside isn't too bad for a center neither.  His outside shots were all out of the offense and he was open, so he should have taken them.  I do not know why Brad is only playing Zeller these few minutes and why he's coming off the bench.  I can understand starting Amir and I can understand wanting to give Lee more minutes to get his rhythm back.  Maybe that's all it is, but that doesn't explain why we saw the same type of situation 2 days earlier in Brooklyn.

8.  There was a span where the guards on the floor were Hunter and Young.  No real floor general, barely one ball handler (that is still not a Young forte).  Didn't work very well.  Hunter was a bit overwhelmed with the increase in responsibilities and took a few bad shots.  He made a great full courtvision pass to Turner who promptly traveled with it.  Just one more, of a large number, of brain-dead things we saw done last night by almost every Celtic.  Hunter got 21 minutes last night.  Brad is really throwing him into the fire.  I saw a video by Brad where he said he was impressed and surprised at how quickly a rookie like Hunter was picking up the defense.  THAT will get him minutes.  And it is.  I think he's on his way (as in, he's on his way to a credible and respected NBA career, not on his way out in a trade).  Brad is seeing something and now he's toying with the possibilities by pairing Hunter with Young and Turner and Kelly and Lee to see how many he fits with.  Not "if" but "how many".

9.  In the Battle-of-the-Bubble it was a lopsided victory for James Young, in part because Perry Jones III was a healthy Coaches-DNP but mostly because James Young had the best game of his NBA career.  He actually looked so good I cleaned my glasses to make sure I was reading his jersey number correctly.  He played attentive defense.  He hit his shots.  He had 10 points on 3-4 shooting, 2-3 from 3 (meaning he was 1-1 from 2.  That's right!  James Young actually took a 2 pt shot!  Who are you, and what have you done with James Young?) and a pair of fritos in just 14 minutes.  Yeah, he had another turnover on a "WTF were you thinking" play, where he dribbled right up to someone and then tried to pass over them, instead passing right into their upheld hands but only one and that's an improvement (sad to say).  I find it hard to say nice things about Young but credit where credit is due, he had his 14 minutes of fame last night.  He still has one in the bank he needs to deliver.  As to Jones, who knows?  Maybe Brad wanted to take advantage of our thinness in the back court last night to give Young a chance to show what he can do at SG and wanted to give Sully a chance to prove himself, so that left no time left for Jones.  Maybe he played Young minutes this game but will play Jones in the next game.  All I can say is that is two games in a row where Jones has not gotten the court time he needs to strut his stuff and the clock is ticking.

10.  If Derrick Williams played like that normally he wouldn't be on his 3rd NBA team in 4 years.  This kid, he's still only 24, was the #2 pick in the 2011 draft by the T-Wolves.  And this is team #3 already.  A crap shoot, indeed.  Game high 19 points on 7-14, 3-5 from 3, 5 rebounds, a steal and vicious block on what looked like an easy Hunter layup.  He got 27 minutes and he earned them.  Making a case to start ahead of Lance Thomas, who did nothing last night.

11.  Sasha must have pictures of Phil and Jeannie naked and doing something unnatural.  I don't understand how else he could have gotten back into the NBA.  He didn't have that bad a night, 10 points and 5 rebounds in 22 minutes but I just cannot stand him.  He's so one-dimensional he's the size of a pin prick.  The only thing about him I gotta give him props for is his taste in women.  He was engaged to tennis pro Maria Sharapova.  They broke up in 2012.  I guess she got annoyed watching him twirl his hair like a little girl too.  Something she and I have in common.



11.  The Mouse got a few minutes last night and made the most of them.  He made a few bad defensive decisions, like not cutting off the angle to the basket on a drive, but he did a lot of good stuff too.  6 points on 2-3 and 6 rebounds in 12 minutes.  Two blocks including a spectacular one.  He would have had 8 points on 3-4 but was called for, what seemed to me, a dubious traveling call.
 
12.  We shot 40% for the game and only had 83fgas.  Hard to win many of those.  We also had 18 TOs with Amir having 5 and Turner 3.  They shot 37% but had 100 fgas and only 7 TOs.  It's amazing the game was even close.  One reason why it was is because we took 30 ftas.  We only hit 21, for a 70% ftm.  If we shot 75%, our current ft% pre-season to-date, that's another point or two and it is then a 4 point, 2 possession game.  This game was winnable and we stunk the joint up for at least 3 quarters.


I wanted to see Kristaps Porzingis play, not only because he intrigues me but because I finally want to see how we look against a fully-manned NBA roster.  Oh well.  As it is I saw a half-hearted, half-assed Celtic squad give Brad a wealth of items to talk about.  You'd have thought they'd come out and stayed a little fresher.   They played the Nets on Wednesday, only needed to grab a bus from Brooklyn to Manhattan and then had a day off before playing the Knicks.  During the regular season these would be back-to-backers.  Not much of an excuse for looking and playing fatigued, especially when no Celtic played more than IT's 24 minutes.

Crappy game and we still lost by only 2 possessions.  Move on, I say.  It's pre-season and Corey Waldman played 10 minutes.

We have off until Monday, when we host Brooklyn.  Maybe Barf-nani will be healthy.  Oooh.  I'm so scared.



bob


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[cowens/oldschool]

bob Kyle O'Quinn also got alot of points and rebounds in the first half against Kelly Soft and Zeller, it wasn't ALL on Sully.

[Matty]

Mmmmmm.... maria....

[cowens/oldschool]

right....thanks bob, shes hot!!

[rambone]

The Celtics were ravaged by illness from their Euro trip. I think they're still collectively recovering, and Smart is still out with whatever bug a lot of the guys caught in Europe, or just as likely, on their airplane ride over. That plane was packed, and one sick person on a 5 hour flight can make a lot of other people sick. Smart had a bad fever, and now has strep throat.

I'm sure a lot of the guys were still under the weather a bit, not to mention that trip to Europe was probably a bit exhausting even aside from the illness.

It's also the dogdays of preseason, right in the middle where guys are already close to game shape, and just looking to be ready for Game One. My worry is that our preseason schedule is too soft. Playing two teams in Europe might be good for the NBA, but it wasn't necessarily great for the Celtics, especially with the team illness. And coming back and facing Atlantic Division competition isn't exactly the best preparation for playing the better teams in the NBA.

I do sure wish we had Kyle O'Quinn on the Celtics. He's been playing great all preseason, but I'm sure he's totally happy playing in his native NYC. Knicks look like a playoff team, with one of the best frontcourts in the NBA. Unfortunately, outside of Jerian Grant, their backcourt is highly suspect. But i think we got a good taste of the challenge the Knicks will give us all year, and we didn't even face Porzingis yet.


Celtics were +3 in the first quarter with IT, so it wasn't as bad as it looked.

KO once again led the team in +/-, and I suspect the final score would have been different if KO had played his usual minutes in the second half. KO drew intense close-outs in the first half, where his pump fakes were actually the right move except for the 3rd or 4th time, when he was actually open. It's generally a good sign when a player shoots 1-7 but still leads the team in +/-. KO rarely has a "bad" game where the team actually stinks while he's on the court.

Watching RJ Hunter play with James Young made me very happy, especially when KO was in there for a bit with them in the second half. Add a Marcus Smart or a Terry Rozier, along with say, Ben Simmons with our Nets pick next year, and that look last night might have been a glimpse of the Celtics future.

The other night against the Nets Young kind of blew me away with his defensive foot speed one time while playing SG. His disposition is generally (too) laid back, so the burst of lateral quickness really caught my eye.

I remember at some point this summer Brad said that Young didn't really struggle with his foot speed as a rookie defending shooting guards, but rather it was his lack of strength and knowledge and maturity that made his defense so atrocious.

Another comment Brad made this preseason was about how Young is starting to look 'like one of those versatile wings' or something like that. Young's slowly emerging ability to credibly defend both 2s and 3s is nice to have. You look at Nik Stauskas, who was drafted 8 spots ahead of Young, and Young might already be a better defender against both 2s and 3s than Stauskas, whose first team already gave up on him.

The Celtics definitely have a roster spot for a super young, versatile 3 point shooter like Young, and the team actually has a need for a 3 point shooter at SF, at least situationally.

Up until last night, I thought Jerebko was ultimately a better defensive small forward than Young, but Jerebko is just so tall and lacking the agility to make up for it.

As Young continues to get stronger, smarter, and more experienced, his very nice footspeed at SF might make him an overall decent defender after all. And that strength and footspeed, combined with his outside shot, will continue to open up dribble driving opportunities for him. By next year, Young's production and contract will probably look like an absolute steal, especially when similar (bench) players are signing 12 million dollar contracts for similar (mid-level) production.

With how deep the Celtics roster is, even if we don't win the lottery sweepstakes with the Nets' pick next summer, we may very well be able to use all of our picks to move up for the #1 pick if desired, or at least into the top 4-5.

David Lee looked rusty, but in the back of my mind I was wondering if the only reason he looked so good in Europe was because of the level of competition. Luckily most front courts are not as good as NY's, at least I hope that's the case.

I wouldn't mind seeing Olynyk get a chance to start one of these preseason games in place of David Lee as that playmaking point forward. KO might have good scoring ability, but he's also a great option as a big who can make sure the ball is moving, the offense is working, and the floor is well spaced. Lee brings two of the three, but doesn't space the floor, and at this point Olynyk is a better athlete than Lee as well.

Then again, maybe Lee and the Celtics would have looked better in the first quarter if the team had given Lee the ball early and often, rather than trying to force it into him later in the quarter after a time out. Who knows?

I'm not sure why Mickey didn't get in the game until later, or why his minutes were limited, but he's fun to watch, and RJ Hunter keeps getting better every game.

I thought Crowder was the heart and soul last night, and without his intensity we might have gotten blown out in the first half. Hard to overstate the importance of that intensity, and I think Crowder is a natural fit for the starting lineup.

Jerebko also provided a lot of heart and soul intensity, helping the Celtics stay tough in a slug fest.

Even the Knicks announcers noticed that Sully was heavier than last year, and his fitness level simply isn't good enough to be anything other than an enforcer off the bench. It's hard to shoot well carrying around all that extra weight, and any enforcer off the bench has to embrace the role, and embrace putting the team first. Sully pretty much shot the Celtics out of the game down the stretch. Not his role. Not in the condition he's in.

I think all these illnesses and missed games by all these Celtics is ultimately a very good thing, and it was so fun watching the bench guys get all the minutes they could handle. They need the development, and there's only so many preseason games to develop before a decision is made about their entire season, whether they're rotation players or Portland bound.

If James Young can consistently play like he did last night, he might actually press Evan Turner for backup minutes. It's not like Turner's bbiq is miles ahead of Young's anyway. They're both spark plug bench scorers, in my opinion. Though if neither Smart, IT, or Rozier can stand out as starting point guard, I would totally support throwing Turner right back in the starting lineup. Can't say the same for Young at this point, though that day may come some time down the road.

Like, if IT4, Smart, or Rozier show some major ability to be a stand out starting point guard that attacks the rim relentlessly, having a starting SF that can space the floor with a good/great 3 point shot becomes pretty highly desired. In fact, if Young was generally as good as Crowder or Turner right now, his skill set as a 3 point shooter would probably put him in the starting lineup right now.

Maybe next year.

[rambone]

The second 3 pointer here by Young was a big time shot with a guy draped all over him. He's got a quick, high release that is tough to block, and he quietly made major strides in the d-league last year in making contested 3s, after struggling at Kentucky when tightly guarded. Like Hunter, Young can also fire away from well beyond the 3 point line, though probably not as well as Hunter. But they're both pure shooters with endless range.

[rambone]

10/16 Postgame Report: Celtics Drop First Preseason Tilt

[rambone]

Here's 12 minutes of Knicks highlights, or Celtics defensive lowlights

[bobheckler]

bob Kyle O'Quinn also got alot of points and rebounds in the first half against Kelly Soft and Zeller, it wasn't ALL on Sully.

cow,

I was wondering how the play-by-play went, so I went back and summed it up.  These are the times when either Kelly, Sully and/or O'Quinn were on the floor.  When Sully was on the floor, he covered O'Quinn.  I also showed the middle of the 1st where neither was on the floor but O'Quinn was to show how he did against players not named Sully or Olynyk.

DR = Defensive Rebound
OR = Offensive Rebound


1st

8:36 - 5:52 (2:44)
8-4 Knicks to 13-9 Knicks (0 change to Knick lead)
Amir, Lee, Jae, IT, Avery
O'Quinn - 0 points, 1 DR

5:52 - end of 1st (5:52)
13-9 Knicks to 32-31 Celtics (5 pt increase in Celtic lead)
O'Quinn 1 DR, 2 OR, fouls Amir, 2-3 (off putback, 20', layup), 1ftm (foul Zeller).  5 pts
Kelly replaces Lee (5:52), Jerebko replaces Crowder (5:52), Zeller replaces Amir (1:23).  NO Sully
Zeller 4pts 1 reb, Kelly 2pts


2nd

12:00 - 8:33 (3:27)
32-31 Celtics - 41-38 Knicks (4 pt increase in Knick lead)
O'Quinn 1 assist
Sully and Lee start 2nd for Zeller and Kelly.  No Kelly, O'Quinn in. O'Quinn replaced by Seraphin @ 8:33
O'Quinn 0 pts 0 rebs.
Sully 0 pts 0 rebs.  

8:33 - 5:37 (2:56)
41-38 Knicks - 45-41 Knicks (1 pt increase in Knick lead)
Sully.  No Kelly. No O'Quinn.
Sully 0 pts 0 rebs, replaced by Amir @ 5:37.


3rd

5:50 - 3:57 (1:53)
65-62 Knicks - 70-65 Knicks (2 pt increase in Knick lead)
O'Quinn comes in.  No Kelly, no Sully.  Lee, Zeller in.
O'Quinn 1 block (of Lee), 2 pts, 1 DR
Zeller 2pts

3:57 - 2:46 (1:11)
70-65 Knicks - 72-67 Knicks (0 change in Knick lead)
Sully replaces Zeller
O'Quinn 0 pts 0 rebs
Sully 2 DR

2:46 - end of 3rd
72-67 Knicks - 77-73 Knicks (1 decrease to Knick lead)
Kelly in for Lee
O'Quinn flagrant 1, 2 DR, 2ftm, 1 block (on Sully)
Kelly 1 DR, 1 OR
Sully 2 OR, 4 fta. 1ftm


4th

4:05 - end of 4th (4:05)
93-88 Knicks - 101-95 Knicks (1 pt increase to Knick lead)
Sully in, Kelly out, O'Quinn comes in for Seraphin
O'Quinn 1 OR, 2 DR, 2 pts
Sully 1 block (on O'Quinn), 2 DR


bob


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[cowens/oldschool]

Whats your point bob, I know I saw O'Quinn score a few times over KO and Z.

[112288]

You got to expect that with an overseas stint then back here and some players with the flu.

We are looking good relax!


112288

[cowens/oldschool]

I didn't know the Knicks had acquired so many good to decent rotation players. They are much better than us at the C and SF positions, if Porzingis is anywhere near what bob heckler thinks, they are or will be better than us at the PF position too, despite our depth. Affalo has been a starter on a 50 win playoff team, if their rookie point guard, Grant can play at all, that is a remarkable turnaround....after one year of tanking, I mean losing.

maybe Phil was rope a doping for one year and knows what hes doing.

[kdp59]

Bob,

who is " the Mouse"..is that Mickey?


if you watched the clips on the sidelines during time outs you saw why Vujucic was signed by Jackson. he was coaching other guys up , he also can still play some.


it may not be standard thought, because Jackson didn't sign any "Stars" this offseason........but I think he did a damn good job.

Robin Lopez
A. Afflalo
both solid NBA starters, who fill roles that the Knicks needed filled.

O'Quinn and Seraphin are bangers who came in on cheap deals and will bring toughness that Jackson wants.

Vujacic knows the system and is playing/coaching for vet minimum.

D. Williams was signed to a E. Turner type deal to see if he can get his game right.

Jerian Grant was a steal of a late first round trade for Jackson.

and of course your fav, Porzingis. While I think he may play less than Grant during their rookie years, bit should be solid long term players in the NBA.

not too bad for a team that didn't sign any "stars".


knicks might just surprise some people this year, that are expecting 76er type play/games.

[bobheckler]

Bob,

who is " the Mouse"..is that Mickey?


if you watched the clips on the sidelines during time outs you saw why Vujucic was signed by Jackson. he was coaching other guys up , he also can still play some.


it may not be standard thought, because Jackson didn't sign any "Stars" this offseason........but I think he did a damn good job.

Robin Lopez
A. Afflalo
both solid NBA starters, who fill roles that the Knicks needed filled.

O'Quinn and Seraphin are bangers who came in on cheap deals and will bring toughness that Jackson wants.

Vujacic knows the system and is playing/coaching for vet minimum.

D. Williams was signed to a E. Turner type deal to see if he can get his game right.

Jerian Grant was a steal of  a late first round trade for Jackson.

and of course your fav, Porzingis. While I think he may play less than Grant during their rookie years, bit should be solid long term players in the NBA.

not too bad for a team that didn't sign any "stars".


knicks might just surprise some people this year, that are expecting 76er type play/games.

kdp,

Yeah, "The Mouse" is Jordan Mickey.

They have some good pieces.  We'll see how they work, especially in the triangle.  I absolutely expect a big step up from last year, as big as the one we took last year.

Phil signed veteran starters Lopez and Afflalo.  He signed journeymen O'Quinn and Seraphin.

Danny got Amir and Lee.  He resigned journeyman Jerebko.  He also has a boatload more picks than Phil, including the potentially OMG! Brooklyn pick this year.

What remains to be seen is not just the quality of the talent but how well they integrate into the coach's philosophy and playbook.  If D-Fish plays the triangle, then who plays the low post position Pau Gasol played in LA?  Porzingis?  He has the length, the court vision and the skills, but he could be easily pushed off the block because he's a paperweight.  Lopez?  Don't see it.  Amir and Lee, on the other hand, I can easily fitting into Brad's system and Lee might just be a one year rental (Amir might be too, he has 2 one-year contracts with team options on the 2nd year) so we're well positioned for next season and even for the trade deadline this year as those expiring contracts (Sully, Amir, Jerebko, Turner, Young, Lee) gain value with each passing day.

A nice, but underballyhooed offseason for Phil, indeed.  Now they have to go out and prove themselves in the system.  We are a year ahead of them in that respect.



bob


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