The idea that a lane clogging, low post scoring center is not impressing me especially lately

I understand that the NBA appears to be moving towards a more spread out style of play, and the thoughts about not needing a true center as much as in the past has been discussed often. But, when the Cs are using Amir Johnson and Jared Sullinger (both guys are really forwards due to lack of bulk or a too short) as their centers against teams that still do have an old school, true center in the middle our Celtics are really struggling with scoring, rebounding and defending.

Losing to teams with records like Utah and Minnesota in the last week should not be happening to a third place team that is considered to still be on the rise except for "size apparently still does matter".

If there is yet even more reason to look at getting Cousins away from Sacremento our last batch of games against teams with big centers has proven another reason to consider this guy if he is at all available. Even over paying with some of the many draft picks that Ainge has should not be considered a mistake.

Clyde,

I'd love to get Cousins, I've made no bones about it, but at this point I'm thinking the only way that will happen is by prying him out of Vlade Divac' cold dead fingers.

We're short.  We are one of, if not the, shortest front courts in the league.  We have a 6'9" player playing center.  His inadequacies at that position were highlighted vs Utah and Minnesota.  It also looks like Sully's conditioning is gone again too.  He looked more svelte to start the season but has bulked up again to play center.  Getting slower just to play the position you are assigned to is not the way to go.

We need a stork.  We need a 3-4" taller Jordan Mickey, someone with at least some offense, who can hit fritos, who has the "shot blocking gene".  The rumor was that Danny was about to pull off a blockbuster for Jahlil Okafur.  Even then, Okafur is 32nd in the league in blocks/game but is 45th in the league in blocks/36mpg.  In fact, just to highlight his mediocrity in this particular area, he is 16th in the league in blocked shots/36mpg for centers only. A couple of the centers ahead of him are not starters, like Jeff Withey and Bismack BiYOMMMMBOOOO!!!, but that still places him a very pedestrian 14th. Let me rub even a more salt into that: Kelly Olynyk is ranked 18th in the league in blocks/36mpg for centers. He's only 2 places ahead of alligator-armed Kelly. So, he is NOT a real shot blocker either, but Sullinger is 69th/36mpg.  Okafur could replace Sully's bulk, and would be more effective in low post scoring, but our shot blocking/rim protection would get only a marginal upgrade.


bob


.

bobheckler wrote:Clyde,

I'd love to get Cousins, I've made no bones about it, but at this point I'm thinking the only way that will happen is by prying him out of Vlade Divac' cold dead fingers.

We're short.  We are one of, if not the, shortest front courts in the league.  We have a 6'9" player playing center.  His inadequacies at that position were highlighted vs Utah and Minnesota.  It also looks like Sully's conditioning is gone again too.  He looked more svelte to start the season but has bulked up again to play center.  Getting slower just to play the position you are assigned to is not the way to go.

We need a stork.  We need a 3-4" taller Jordan Mickey, someone with at least some offense, who can hit fritos, who has the "shot blocking gene".  The rumor was that Danny was about to pull off a blockbuster for Jahlil Okafur.  Even then, Okafur is 32nd in the league in blocks/game but is 45th in the league in blocks/36mpg.  In fact, just to highlight his mediocrity in this particular area, he is 16th in the league in blocked shots/36mpg for centers only.  A couple of the centers ahead of him are not starters, like Jeff Withey and Bismack BiYOMMMMBOOOO!!!, but that still places him a very pedestrian 14th.  Let me rub even a more salt into that:  Kelly Olynyk is ranked 18th in the league in blocks/36mpg for centers.  He's only 2 places ahead of alligator-armed Kelly.  So, he is NOT a real shot blocker either, but Sullinger is 69th/36mpg.  Okafur could replace Sully's bulk, and would be more effective in low post scoring, but our shot blocking/rim protection would get only a marginal upgrade.


bob


.

Bob,

You are right about Okafor.
He is not an intimidator or rim protector.
His rebounding, shot blocking and defensive numbers are poor.
People sometimes only see his offensive numbers.
Some of his offensive numbers are due to the fact that Philly doesn't have very many good offensive players.
If all teams are going to score between 95-115 points per game, someone on each team will have to score more than 15ppg.
That's Okafor for Philly.

I doubt Cousins is going anywhere.

I think they might have to overpay in the offseason for Whiteside, Horford or Dwight.
I see Whiteside being a good fit at Center for Boston or the Lakers next season.

is what it is , Wide.

I've said before I would have been happier with Robin Lopez as a FA over Amir. They are similar players, but Robin is a true NBA center with the size needed against those teams with real Centers.


Robin only makes $1M more this year, HOWEVER he has a REAL 4 year deal. So I can also see Dannys' point on flexability with Amir's deal in the future.

problem is Cousins and Lopez are all the same right now for us.....that is NOT HERE.

Towns appears to be the real deal.

I do think things go in cycles. Just because traditional centers seem like dinosaurs now doesn't mean that they won't make a comeback. If Shaq were to come along now, he would still be an unstoppable force, and we wouldn't be saying he's irrelevant because he can't make a three. There just aren't that many good centers out there right now. Robin Lopez would've been considered a journeyman center in years gone by, but he's one of the better centers in today's NBA.

Okafor has a very good low post offensive game, but he's just plain bad defensively. Towns, however, is even better offensively and appears to have some defensive skills. The difference between the two is substantial, and it's ridiculous now to think that some people thought Okafor should've been drafted first over Towns.

As for the Celtics' odds of getting a serviceable center in the near future, good luck. They are hard to find these days. Certain guys like Cousins and Towns stand out, but the trick is knowing which of next level of centers will make it in the NBA. Trying to figure out whether a college big guy will turn into Fab Melo or Festus Ezili apparently requires a time machine.

Myles Turner sure would look good in green right now.

bobheckler wrote:Clyde,

I'd love to get Cousins, I've made no bones about it, but at this point I'm thinking the only way that will happen is by prying him out of Vlade Divac' cold dead fingers.

We're short.  We are one of, if not the, shortest front courts in the league.  We have a 6'9" player playing center.  His inadequacies at that position were highlighted vs Utah and Minnesota.  It also looks like Sully's conditioning is gone again too.  He looked more svelte to start the season but has bulked up again to play center.  Getting slower just to play the position you are assigned to is not the way to go.

We need a stork.  We need a 3-4" taller Jordan Mickey, someone with at least some offense, who can hit fritos, who has the "shot blocking gene".  The rumor was that Danny was about to pull off a blockbuster for Jahlil Okafur.  Even then, Okafur is 32nd in the league in blocks/game but is 45th in the league in blocks/36mpg.  In fact, just to highlight his mediocrity in this particular area, he is 16th in the league in blocked shots/36mpg for centers only.  A couple of the centers ahead of him are not starters, like Jeff Withey and Bismack BiYOMMMMBOOOO!!!, but that still places him a very pedestrian 14th.  Let me rub even a more salt into that:  Kelly Olynyk is ranked 18th in the league in blocks/36mpg for centers.  He's only 2 places ahead of alligator-armed Kelly.  So, he is NOT a real shot blocker either, but Sullinger is 69th/36mpg.  Okafur could replace Sully's bulk, and would be more effective in low post scoring, but our shot blocking/rim protection would get only a marginal upgrade.


bob


.

this post I completely agree with, glad you came to your senses, instead of coming up with a bunch of useless stats, its obvious were very vulnerable to a good post up big.

cowens/oldschool wrote:Myles Turner sure would look good in green right now.

Yeah, I think he's got a bright future. He's really active and can be impactful on both ends of the court.

There are guys like this out there. I know the desire is for the Nets' pick to turn into someone like Simmons or Ingram, and that of course would be ideal, but finding a gem like Turner in that next level is almost as good.

Last year's draft class was really weak. I can see why Ainge wanted so badly to move up, because the draft was basically played out by the time Boston's pick rolled around:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2015.html?lid=header_draft

With a higher pick, and hopefully a better draft class, the Celtics should do better in the 2016 draft.

Outside wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:Myles Turner sure would look good in green right now.

Yeah, I think he's got a bright future. He's really active and can be impactful on both ends of the court.

There are guys like this out there. I know the desire is for the Nets' pick to turn into someone like Simmons or Ingram, and that of course would be ideal, but finding a gem like Turner in that next level is almost as good.

Last year's draft class was really weak. I can see why Ainge wanted so badly to move up, because the draft was basically played out by the time Boston's pick rolled around:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2015.html?lid=header_draft

With a higher pick, and hopefully a better draft class, the Celtics should do better in the 2016 draft.

I think last years draft was alot better than this years, last years had an abundance of big men, if we had not acquired IT, and had that damn playoff run, we'd have Turner right now protecting that paint.

cowens/oldschool wrote:

Outside wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:Myles Turner sure would look good in green right now.

Yeah, I think he's got a bright future. He's really active and can be impactful on both ends of the court.

There are guys like this out there. I know the desire is for the Nets' pick to turn into someone like Simmons or Ingram, and that of course would be ideal, but finding a gem like Turner in that next level is almost as good.

Last year's draft class was really weak. I can see why Ainge wanted so badly to move up, because the draft was basically played out by the time Boston's pick rolled around:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2015.html?lid=header_draft

With a higher pick, and hopefully a better draft class, the Celtics should do better in the 2016 draft.

I think last years draft was alot better than this years, last years had an abundance of big men, if we had not acquired IT, and had that damn playoff run, we'd have Turner right now protecting that paint.

cow,

No we wouldn't. We'd have Justise Winslow. He's the one Danny was craving, remember?


bob


.

bob thats why I should be GM.

cowens/oldschool wrote:bob thats why I should be GM.

Oy, the entire team would look like a grazing herd out of Jurassic Park.

Who would you rather have? Miles Turner or Jahlil Okafur?


bob


.

bobheckler wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:bob thats why I should be GM.

Oy,  the entire team would look like a grazing herd out of Jurassic Park.

Who would you rather have?  Miles Turner or Jahlil Okafur?  


bob


.

My soda just came out my nose.............

beat

bobheckler wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:bob thats why I should be GM.

Oy,  the entire team would look like a grazing herd out of Jurassic Park.

Who would you rather have?  Miles Turner or Jahlil Okafur?  


bob


.

I'd rather have K A T myself, thanks.

kdp59 wrote:

bobheckler wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:bob thats why I should be GM.

Oy,  the entire team would look like a grazing herd out of Jurassic Park.

Who would you rather have?  Miles Turner or Jahlil Okafur?  


bob


.

I'd rather have K A T myself, thanks.

kdp,


So would I, but if you made a list of ALL the centers that might, conceivably, maybe, even remotely possibly if you put a gun to the GM's head could become available Karl-Anthony Towns is dead last.


bob


.

Only Okafor is the classic back to the basket center of the early years.  Townes and Turner, so far in their career, are proving to be exceedingly talented Jump shooting centers with great range.

Townes
 Percent of shots from 10' - 16' =  .092 - Shooting percentage at that distance = .457
                               16' - <3 =  .274 -                                                   = .481
                                   3p     =  .072 -                                                   = .364

Turner
   Percent of shots from 10'-16' = .196 -  Shooting percentage at that distance = .455
                                 16'-<3 = .371 -                                                     = .452
                                     3p   = .014 -                                                    = .250

 Okafor
   Percent of shots from 10'-16' = .190  -                                                    =.355
                                 16'>3  =  .080 -                                                    = .259
                                    3p   =  .006  -                                                    = .000

   swish

bobheckler wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:bob thats why I should be GM.

Oy,  the entire team would look like a grazing herd out of Jurassic Park.

Who would you rather have?  Miles Turner or Jahlil Okafur?  


bob


.

right now Turner, but Okafor is a big boy, if he gets the right coaching, his defense can improve. Last year there were 6 potential franchise bigs

Guys, keep an eye on Jakob Poeltl



I think he's probably going to be a better center than Okafor, and he'll be available outside the top 2 if we don't win the lottery.

Poeltl's simple stats won't be as flashy as Okafors, but his advanced stats will show him to be an infinitely better defender, with above average offensive skills as well.

I think I'd draft Poeltl over Dragan Bender, and every other prospect except possibly Jaylen Brown.

Poeltl should be a poor man's Porzingis. 7'1", rim protector, high IQ, highly skilled (no 3 though, but that's just fine).

bobheckler wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:bob thats why I should be GM.

Oy,  the entire team would look like a grazing herd out of Jurassic Park.

Who would you rather have?  Miles Turner or Jahlil Okafur?  


bob


.

the more I see Rozier, the more I see just another somewhat athletic point, but they are a dime a dozen.

cowens/oldschool wrote:

bobheckler wrote:Clyde,

I'd love to get Cousins, I've made no bones about it, but at this point I'm thinking the only way that will happen is by prying him out of Vlade Divac' cold dead fingers.

We're short.  We are one of, if not the, shortest front courts in the league.  We have a 6'9" player playing center.  His inadequacies at that position were highlighted vs Utah and Minnesota.  It also looks like Sully's conditioning is gone again too.  He looked more svelte to start the season but has bulked up again to play center.  Getting slower just to play the position you are assigned to is not the way to go.

We need a stork.  We need a 3-4" taller Jordan Mickey, someone with at least some offense, who can hit fritos, who has the "shot blocking gene".  The rumor was that Danny was about to pull off a blockbuster for Jahlil Okafur.  Even then, Okafur is 32nd in the league in blocks/game but is 45th in the league in blocks/36mpg.  In fact, just to highlight his mediocrity in this particular area, he is 16th in the league in blocked shots/36mpg for centers only.  A couple of the centers ahead of him are not starters, like Jeff Withey and Bismack BiYOMMMMBOOOO!!!, but that still places him a very pedestrian 14th.  Let me rub even a more salt into that:  Kelly Olynyk is ranked 18th in the league in blocks/36mpg for centers.  He's only 2 places ahead of alligator-armed Kelly.  So, he is NOT a real shot blocker either, but Sullinger is 69th/36mpg.  Okafur could replace Sully's bulk, and would be more effective in low post scoring, but our shot blocking/rim protection would get only a marginal upgrade.


bob


.

this post I completely agree with, glad you came to your senses, instead of coming up with a bunch of useless stats, its obvious were very vulnerable to a good post up big.

Cow,

I've always said that Sully is too short to play center.  Where I'm at is "if Danny gets a legit NBA center to replace Sully, who should go?  Sully, Kelly or Amir?".  Last year the answer would have been easy, Kelly, but now I'm thinking he's the last one I'd let go.  Amir is a better defender than Sully but Sully is better offensively.  His conditioning, however, is definitely starting to worry me.  That "new Sully body" we saw early on is gone, he's back to being a porker.  Maybe he needs the extra weight now but if he stops playing center and goes back to his true position of PF will he have enough mobility to stay in front pf other PFs?

Sully at center has always been a short-term stopgap solution.


bob


.

Tonight was another typical game for Okafor.
17 points, 2 Rebs, 4 TO's, 4 Fouls and poor defense against Vucevic.

Towns is absolutely the real deal.
The gap between Towns and Okafor is vast.
If Philly was almost ready to pull the trigger on a trade for Okafor, it's hard to believe they are super excited about him as their center of the future.

bobheckler wrote:

kdp59 wrote:

bobheckler wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:bob thats why I should be GM.

Oy,  the entire team would look like a grazing herd out of Jurassic Park.

Who would you rather have?  Miles Turner or Jahlil Okafur?  


bob


.

I'd rather have K A T myself, thanks.

kdp,


So would I, but if you made a list of ALL the centers that might, conceivably, maybe, even remotely possibly if you put a gun to the GM's head could become available Karl-Anthony Towns is dead last.


bob


.

my bad,

I thought we were talking about Centers drafted last year that were taken before we picked or something.....LOL.

this year's draft does not seem to be a good one for centers, so I am pretty sure Danny will draft one!!!


my current rankings:
5. J. Poeitl 7-0- Utah- ceiling similar to A. Bogut
13. D. Stone 6-10- Maryland- ceiling of A. Jefferson
15. S. Zimmerman 7-0- UNLV- Ceiling of Jason Smith
23. J. Jeane 7-2- Int- ceiling of Marcus Camby
28. D. Jones 6-11- Vanderbilt- ceiling of Amir Johnson
37. AJ Hammons 7-0- Purdue- ceiling of Mark West

My prediction knowing Danny's blind spot for big men........welcome to Boston Mr. Zimmerman.......

kdp59 wrote:

bobheckler wrote:

kdp59 wrote:

bobheckler wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:bob thats why I should be GM.

Oy,  the entire team would look like a grazing herd out of Jurassic Park.

Who would you rather have?  Miles Turner or Jahlil Okafur?  


bob


.

I'd rather have K A T myself, thanks.

kdp,


So would I, but if you made a list of ALL the centers that might, conceivably, maybe, even remotely possibly if you put a gun to the GM's head could become available Karl-Anthony Towns is dead last.


bob


.

my bad,

I thought we were talking about Centers drafted last year that were taken before we picked or something.....LOL.

this year's draft does not seem to be a good one for centers, so I am pretty sure Danny will draft one!!!


my current rankings:
5. J. Poeitl 7-0- Utah- ceiling similar to A. Bogut
13. D. Stone 6-10- Maryland- ceiling of A. Jefferson
15. S. Zimmerman 7-0- UNLV- Ceiling of Jason Smith
23. J. Jeane 7-2- Int- ceiling of Marcus Camby
28. D. Jones 6-11- Vanderbilt- ceiling of Amir Johnson
37. AJ Hammons 7-0- Purdue- ceiling of Mark West

My prediction knowing Danny's blind spot for big men........welcome to Boston Mr. Zimmerman.......

kdp,

Mark West? Ouch. Cowens' ears must be burning, he LOVES AJ Hammons.

Poetl is a distinct possibility with the Brooklyn pick, assuming we keep it. Draftexpress lists him going at #6. He is 7'1" and has a 7'1" wingspan. They say he's one of the top defensive bigs, even a shotblocker with 1.4/game in 29mpg, but I don't know how that will translate in the taller, longer NBA. Wingspan matters. Bradley might be out of the league, as a 6'2" SG, if it wasn't for his 6'7+" wingspan.


bob


.

well...getting a 10 year defensive minded Center like Mark West with a second round pick aint' too shabby.

Hammonds simply has never turned his size into an elite weapon in 4 years of college.

Hard to see his improvement from a 22YO in the Pro game, especially TODAYS' NBA game.

I wanna read some on the Jeanne kid, he is skinny as all get out, but supposedly has defensive instincts and is mobile. Of course at about 200# on a 7-2 frame he BETTER be mobile!!

IF he comes out and shows enough in workouts he will probably be a late first rounder. Could be a nice Flyer for Danny with our own or the Dallas pick, if he has them on draft day.

I didn't put the current Euro propect on this list as I think Bender is more of Skinny PF than a center. And I also think he will be picked higher than he should, due to how well Porzingis has played this year. I have my doubts Bender will end up being as good a player as the ZInger, but who knows with these guys?

bobheckler wrote:Poetl is a distinct possibility with the Brooklyn pick, assuming we keep it. Draftexpress lists him going at #6. He is 7'1" and has a 7'1" wingspan. They say he's one of the top defensive bigs, even a shotblocker with 1.4/game in 29mpg, but I don't know how that will translate in the taller, longer NBA. Wingspan matters. Bradley might be out of the league, as a 6'2" SG, if it wasn't for his 6'7+" wingspan.

Wingspan and standing reach are more important than height. It's one of the reasons that guys like Kawhi Leonard (height 6' 6" w/o shoes, wingspan 7' 3", standing reach 8' 10") and Draymond Green (height 6' 5.75" w/o shoes, wingspan 7' 1.25", standing reach 8'9") are such impact players.