good and fair article of where the Celtics stand right now.

http://www.sbnation.com/2016/6/24/12022864/boston-celtics-nba-draft-2016-recap-danny-ainge




The Celtics maintain their awkward status quo

By Paul Flannery  @Pflanns on Jun 24, 2016, 9:23a 26








Boston failed to make a big splash again, annoying an antsy fanbase looking for payoff for their many assets. But the Celtics still have the luxury of patience.


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The Boston Celtics have 12 players under contract from a 48-win team that posted a top-10 offense and a top-five defense. All of their core players are younger than 26 years old and are either on rookie contracts or team-friendly veteran deals. They have no cap problems, miles of flexibility and are well-stocked in future draft choices. Oh and they also had the third pick in the draft thanks to an Auerbachian swindle of the Brooklyn Nets that is only halfway through being paid off.

The Celtics used that third pick on Jaylen Brown, a 19-year-old freshman from Cal who was one of the most polarizing prospects in the draft. Brown has the kind of size and athleticism that translates well to the wing in the NBA, but not the shooting. At least not yet. He’s a projection pick in a draft that was described as mediocre and lacking in star talent.




(Brown is also really smart. He took graduate level courses at Cal and liked to play chess around Berkeley. Some teams supposedly saw his intelligence as a red flag. The Celtics clearly did not. You can read more about Brown in a Sunday Shootaround I wrote after the Chicago combine.)

What he’s not is Jimmy Butler or any other established young star that fans had been pinning their hopes on for the last year or so. The Celtics were involved in Butler talks but the cost has been described as prohibitive. A true accounting will reveal the details, but while there was a lot of smoke around Butler, he’s still with the Bulls so maybe he wasn’t as available as people want him to be.

Adding Brown and a couple of international prospects who are likely to be stashed won’t move the needle for the Celtics. Dealing a couple of second rounders for yet another future first rounder didn’t pacify the angry mob either. All this gritty overachieving and asset gathering is fine as far as it goes, but people want results and they want them yesterday.



Ah, yesterday. It was only three years ago that the Celtics had a capped-out, aging roster and a coach trying to get out of town. Now they have a young, competitive team and a rising star on the sidelines in Brad Stevens who just re-upped for the long term.




Go around the league and people rave about the job Ainge has done. When you get a Sam Hinkie shoutout for spinning Jordan Crawford into something tangible, you know you’re winning on the margins. Go around Boston and people are frustrated at the slow pace of Danny Ainge’s rebuild.

Both sides have a point.

Ainge has slow played this because he can. It’s one thing to hoard assets, it’s another to have so many of them that the timeline stretches out years while fielding a competitive team that doesn’t threaten their ability to cash in eventually. Probably. Maybe?

Even if they do nothing but draft Brown and add a rotation player or two, they are still in good shape for the future with a pick swap coming from Brooklyn in next year’s draft and the Nets’ pick in 2018. Those choices look even better after the Nets dealt Thaddeus Young to the Pacers.

There’s also a future Memphis choice to be conveyed in a few years that may look mighty good depending on what the Grizzlies do this offseason and now a pick from the Clippers coming by 2019 at the earliest. The worst thing Ainge can do isn’t maintaining the status quo, it’s blowing the haul on a mistake that sets the franchise back years.

But assets are only as valuable as what the market determines them to be, and so far it has determined that Ainge’s collection is more trash than treasure. He has a roster full of good players, but little in the way of potential stardom that would anchor a trade package. His draft record of late has been mixed.

Avery Bradley, Jared Sullinger and Kelly Olynyk represented good value, but JaJuan Johnson and Fab Melo were busts of the highest order. Marcus Smart was a solid choice, but the jury is still way out on James Young, Terry Rozier and R.J. Hunter.

The Brown choice will be the biggest determining factor on his record. A few years ago Ainge told me that the ones you can’t miss on are the high lottery choices. The third pick was the highest he’s ever made.

If Ainge had his way, he would have turned all those picks into something by now but it takes more than smarts and determination to make a franchise-changing move and here the Celtics have found themselves on the dark side of lady luck. Scoring the third pick in a two-player draft allowed them to control the board but not much else. The rising cap doesn’t help their leverage. Deals signed two and three years ago now look like bargains in the current environment, and those players have far greater value than they might have had under normal circumstances.

There have also been few, if any, franchise-worthy players up for auction since they started this process. The names that have been bandied about -- Butler, DeMarcus Cousins, Kevin Love -- may not be as available as one would think and the others like Paul George and Gordon Hayward are more fantasy than reality. Once again circumstances beyond their control have not helped.

To wit:
•By trading Derrick Rose, the Bulls have set the stage for a re-tool around Butler that presumably doesn’t include free agents Pau Gasol and Joakim Noah. There’s enough good stuff left on the roster to position Butler as the team’s marquee star and not fall too far in the pecking order. That they entertained offers again is interesting, but that there was no deal to be made indicates that they weren’t serious about moving him.
•The pendulum on a prospective Kevin Love trade, which has swung between inevitable and out of reach, shifted again after Love’s gritty Game 7 performance in the Finals. With a championship in his back pocket, Cavs GM David Griffin is under no pressure to deal. Avery Bradley and Jae Crowder both make a ton of sense for the Cavs and Griff is well-positioned to ask for both.
•Cousins is well, Cousins. The Celtics have long debated the merits of going after the mercurial big man and the Kings have been in a constant state of flux for so long that it’s impossible to gauge anyone’s true interest in pursuing a deal.

To be sure, the Celtics have put themselves in odd positions throughout this process. Few people blinked when they swung a three-way deal with the Cavs and Nets to take Tyler Zeller and a first-round pick (that was later used for Isaiah Thomas) and used cap space mechanisms to route Jarrett Jack to Brooklyn. That deal cleared enough space for LeBron James’ return and pushed the Cavs to the front of the line in the initial Love sweepstakes. They knew that was possible going in, but someone was going to do it so why not take advantage of the situation?

Adding Thomas for basically nothing at the 2015 trade deadline was a similar coup, but it also affected their trajectory. Their subsequent playoff run was fun and exciting until they got swept. That massive letdown was not nearly as damaging as draft night last June when they couldn’t swing a deal to take Justise Winslow, who happened to fall right into Pat Riley’s lap after the Heat conceded the postseason race.

And so the Celtics are stuck in a very unique kind of NBA limbo. They have everything going for them and very little to show for it. Another GM would feel the pressure but Ainge has long resisted the hue and cry from the gallery to do something -- anything! -- right this very instant. He waited years to pull the plug on the Big 3 and made out like a bandit. He kept Rajon Rondo long enough to get Jae Crowder and some dude named Guerschon Yabusele. He’ll keep playing this hand for as long as he can, too, but it’s fair to wonder if it was as strong as we might have thought.

KDP,

I am not sure that the article fully takes into account that the Cs are much further along on their rebuild than even most of us impatiently loyal Cs fans could probably have imagined. Sure winning a few more playoff games would have been nice, but still would not have meant an NBA playoff finals appearance (yet).

In the last two seasons our team has improved its regular season winning total by 25 games. We need to realize that such an improvement actually means that we have lost 25 FEWER games in one season over that time span which means that our core of players is deepening, improving and that our team is MUCH more fun to watch.

Ainge still has some more very enticing draft picks coming his way, has plenty of money to spend on free agents and has a great coaching staff working with the players that we do have. Speaking of the coaching staff, I cannot think of one guy other than James Young who has not significantly improved in his time with the Cs if the player had been around or at least one half of at least one season. I am not sure that I could say the same thing for the years that Doc Rivers was in town even though he was able to win one NBA championship. So, with bringing back all of the members of last year's team (I know this will not happen, but) this year's team will be at least a little bit better.

We can all wait at least one year to see if Jaylen Brown will help make a difference, and we may find that a couple of our other draft picks this year may help as well.

Yeah, I think this is fair.

We are, as Flannery pointed out, just 3 years into a minimum 5 year rebuild.  We are in the Kevin Durant sweepstakes.  Whether we land him or not doesn't change the fact that he is only talking to 6 teams out of 30 and we're one of the six.

Sure, to some extent, Danny is just rolling the ball forward.  That's ok with me.  If something good, something that will really move the needle, becomes available you have the resources to go for it and if nothing does you extend the window you have and buy yourself time to use those resources the next time a needle-mover shakes loose.  The danger, as Flannery pointed out again, is that you can get stuck in limbo.  We are not stuck in limbo for two very good reasons, Brad Stevens and the Brooklyn Nets.

Would I prefer to be fighting hammer and tong in the EC finals now, after just 3 years into the 5 year minimum rebuild?  Of course, duh, but every year is making us better too.  25 wins, to 40 wins, to 48 wins (on virtually all organic growth).  If we can get up to 52 wins this year then we will be where GSW was in 2013-2014, when they won 51 games.  The following year?  They became World Champions.  They lost the first round of the WC playoffs in 2013-2014, just as we did the past two years in the EC, and then it all came together for them.  Organic growth by The Splash Brothers, the emergence of Draymond Green and away they went. GSW is one of the six teams KD has agreed to talk to. Why? Because they are really, really good and he wants to win. Winning cures all kinds of ills and chills.

We have another year of Brad's system burning in.  We have a top 3 pick.  We have Atlanta possibly taking a hit with their trade of Jeff Teague and possible loss of Horford.  Miami is a year older and might lose Hassan Whiteside (they only have 4 players under contract, a fifth (Josh Richardson) with a team option.  Their salary is $48k, for 4 players, and DWade is NOT one of them.  If they give Whiteside $20M that would leave them only $26M to sign 9 players including DWade, who will want a few too).  That only leaves Cleveland and Toronto ahead of us and Toronto might lose DeRozan to free agency and BisMACK BiYOMMMMMBOOOOO!!!! too.  They drafted Jakob Poetl, so the loss of BisMACK BiYOMMMMMBOOOOO!!!! might not hurt much, but it isn't forward progress, at least not for a few years until he becomes a true NBA player.  

Danny needs to get us one primo free agent.  Sure, it'd be great if we got KD, his star power and the addition of a second all-star alone would draw more talent to us, but if Danny gets us someone else that moves the needle then we are looking good.

And as we saw with the Celtics in 2007-2008, Miami in 2010-2011 and Cleveland in 2014-2015, if you build it, they will come.  Get the big pieces in place and players that could start on other teams will flock to you.  That's why Danny is big-game hunting now and turned down the opportunities to trade for, or draft, a role player with #16.


bob


.

"the jury is still way out on James Young..."

That line caught my eye.

If the the jury is "still out" on James Young I think I see them entering the courtroom just about now. Actually I do see them. Here they come and they have the verdict with them. And I don't even need to hear them read it to know what it is!

Guilty of not being an NBA player.

I've realized more and more in recent years that at least half of Celtics fans are far more interested in worshipping a star player or 3 than they are in the franchise itself.

Jimmy Butler represented a clear-cut star that they wanted to worship like they worshiped Rondo, Pierce, KG, and Ray in previous years.

This full 50% of the fan base has been miserable since their last hero, Rondo, was traded 1.5 years ago.

IT was traded here as a backup point guard, so he was insufficient as a star to be worshiped, even when he developed into an All Star.

This full 50% of fans envies the Bulls right now, because they have a clear-cut hero to worship in Butler, even though the Bulls missed the playoffs last year.

And Ben Simmons and Brandon Ingram were the only two guys in this draft who the media said were clear-cut heroes worthy of worshiping, so Jaylen Brown, ranked right below them, doesn't tickle these fans' super-hero button.


This full 50% of the fan base wanted to tank the season the day Rondo got traded. Why? To get a legit hero to worship like a Marvel superhero.

The same half of the fanbase that was livid that Danny didn't tank in 14-15 is the same half of the fanbase that is now livid that the re-build isn't over yet.

They'd be much happier missing the playoffs with a legit action hero like Rondo or Jimmy Butler to worship, rather than say tie for 3rd in the East, win 48 games, but have no players worthy of hero-worship.

5'9? Batman and Superman and Captain America are taller than that. So is Hulk Hogan, Arnold Schwartzenegger, and Rajon Rondo.


You can't reason with this full 50% of the fan base, you can only hope they eventually form an emotional attachment with IT, or Jimmy Butler, or Al Horford, or a rookie from next year's class.

Because All Star midget IT, All Defense Avery Bradley, most-improved candidate Jae Crowder, and playoff hero Marcus Smart are just chips to be traded for somebody with a bigger name.

And if we win 55 games next year with our current roster? Ba Humbug.

arambone wrote:I've realized more and more in recent years that at least half of Celtics fans are far more interested in worshipping a star player or 3 than they are in the franchise itself.

Jimmy Butler represented a clear-cut star that they wanted to worship like they worshiped Rondo, Pierce, KG, and Ray in previous years.

This full 50% of the fan base has been miserable since their last hero, Rondo, was traded 1.5 years ago.

IT was traded here as a backup point guard, so he was insufficient as a star to be worshiped, even when he developed into an All Star.

This full 50% of fans envies the Bulls right now, because they have a clear-cut hero to worship in Butler, even though the Bulls missed the playoffs last year.

And Ben Simmons and Brandon Ingram were the only two guys in this draft who the media said were clear-cut heroes worthy of worshiping, so Jaylen Brown, ranked right below them, doesn't tickle these fans' super-hero button.


This full 50% of the fan base wanted to tank the season the day Rondo got traded. Why? To get a legit hero to worship like a Marvel superhero.

The same half of the fanbase that was livid that Danny didn't tank in 14-15 is the same half of the fanbase that is now livid that the re-build isn't over yet.

They'd be much happier missing the playoffs with a legit action hero like Rondo or Jimmy Butler to worship, rather than say tie for 3rd in the East, win 48 games, but have no players worthy of hero-worship.

5'9? Batman and Superman and Captain America are taller than that. So is Hulk Hogan, Arnold Schwartzenegger, and Rajon Rondo.


You can't reason with this full 50% of the fan base, you can only hope they eventually form an emotional attachment with IT, or Jimmy Butler, or Al Horford, or a rookie from next year's class.

Because All Star midget IT, All Defense Avery Bradley, most-improved candidate Jae Crowder, and playoff hero Marcus Smart are just chips to be traded for somebody with a bigger name.

And if we win 55 games next year with our current roster? Ba Humbug.

arambone,

That's a lot of halves...


bob


.

bobheckler wrote:

arambone wrote:I've realized more and more in recent years that at least half of Celtics fans are far more interested in worshipping a star player or 3 than they are in the franchise itself.

Jimmy Butler represented a clear-cut star that they wanted to worship like they worshiped Rondo, Pierce, KG, and Ray in previous years.

This full 50% of the fan base has been miserable since their last hero, Rondo, was traded 1.5 years ago.

IT was traded here as a backup point guard, so he was insufficient as a star to be worshiped, even when he developed into an All Star.

This full 50% of fans envies the Bulls right now, because they have a clear-cut hero to worship in Butler, even though the Bulls missed the playoffs last year.

And Ben Simmons and Brandon Ingram were the only two guys in this draft who the media said were clear-cut heroes worthy of worshiping, so Jaylen Brown, ranked right below them, doesn't tickle these fans' super-hero button.


This full 50% of the fan base wanted to tank the season the day Rondo got traded. Why? To get a legit hero to worship like a Marvel superhero.

The same half of the fanbase that was livid that Danny didn't tank in 14-15 is the same half of the fanbase that is now livid that the re-build isn't over yet.

They'd be much happier missing the playoffs with a legit action hero like Rondo or Jimmy Butler to worship, rather than say tie for 3rd in the East, win 48 games, but have no players worthy of hero-worship.

5'9? Batman and Superman and Captain America are taller than that. So is Hulk Hogan, Arnold Schwartzenegger, and Rajon Rondo.


You can't reason with this full 50% of the fan base, you can only hope they eventually form an emotional attachment with IT, or Jimmy Butler, or Al Horford, or a rookie from next year's class.

Because All Star midget IT, All Defense Avery Bradley, most-improved candidate Jae Crowder, and playoff hero Marcus Smart are just chips to be traded for somebody with a bigger name.

And if we win 55 games next year with our current roster? Ba Humbug.

arambone,

That's a lot of halves...


bob


.

and halve nots

And two summers ago, this 50% was clamoring for Danny to sign Rondo to a long-term max deal, before he became a free agent and we lost him to one of the MANY teams also clamoring to sign Rondo to a long-term max contract.

They said Rondo was the only good player on the roster, because he got triple doubles once in a while and had a super-star level assists per game number.

They wanted to trade all our Nets picks, plus Avery Bradley and Marcus Smart, for Kevin Love. Then trade our own future picks (Nets style) for a third star player like Josh Smith or Greg Monroe.

This lower 50% (that's right) only sees the game in terms of stars. There are stars, and then there are nobodies like Bradley, Smart, Crowder, IT, and now Jaylen Brown.

arambone wrote:And two summers ago, this 50% was clamoring for Danny to sign Rondo to a long-term max deal, before he became a free agent and we lost him to one of the MANY teams also clamoring to sign Rondo to a long-term max contract.

They said Rondo was the only good player on the roster, because he got triple doubles once in a while and had a super-star level assists per game number.

They wanted to trade all our Nets picks, plus Avery Bradley and Marcus Smart, for Kevin Love. Then trade our own future picks (Nets style) for a third star player like Josh Smith or Greg Monroe.

This lower 50% (that's right) only sees the game in terms of stars. There are stars, and then there are nobodies like Bradley, Smart, Crowder, IT, and now Jaylen Brown.

I couldn't agree more. I for one was overjoyed when Rondo was traded because it was apparent that he never was going to play team ball ala "Stevens".

As for the ongoing rebuild, if there were a Nobel Prize for patience, Danny would surely be in the running.

Berlin-T

Danny just added the best defender in the draft to one of the best defenses in the league and all the self-appointed experts can say is, 'He can't shoot!" Hmmmm. They said that same thing about another Cali player about 60 years ago. He turned out okay.

The Celtics lost to Atlanta because Avery Bradley got hurt. He's a humble guy but he's also the leader of the team, not because he's such a great scorer, but because he's a world class defender. Next year, the Celtics defense is going to be ferocious, frightening, especially if Brad can work Brown and Mickey and Zicky into the mix. These Celtics aren't going to have to worry about scoring; it's their opponents who aren't going to be able to score.

Defense wins championships, no matter what the experts think. The key moment in the just-concluded Finals was when LeBitch blocked somebody's shot with one minute left in Game 7. A defensive play. I can't remember how many Celtics championships were won on defensive plays Havlicek stole the ball!!!

rickdavisakaspike wrote:
Danny just added the best defender in the draft to one of the best defenses in the league and all the self-appointed experts can say is, 'He can't shoot!"  Hmmmm.  They said that same thing about another Cali player about 60 years ago.  He turned out okay.

The Celtics lost to Atlanta because Avery Bradley got hurt.  He's a humble guy but he's also the leader of the team, not because he's such a great scorer, but because he's a world class defender.  Next year, the Celtics defense is going to be ferocious, frightening, especially if Brad can work Brown and Mickey and Zicky into the mix.  These Celtics aren't going to have to worry about scoring; it's their opponents who aren't going to be able to score.

Defense wins championships, no matter what the experts think.  The key moment in the just-concluded Finals was when LeBitch blocked somebody's shot with one minute left in Game 7.  A defensive play.  I can't remember how many Celtics championships were won on defensive plays  Havlicek stole the ball!!!

Cow,

Which Cal player is that?


bob

.

bobheckler wrote:

rickdavisakaspike wrote:
Danny just added the best defender in the draft to one of the best defenses in the league and all the self-appointed experts can say is, 'He can't shoot!"  Hmmmm.  They said that same thing about another Cali player about 60 years ago.  He turned out okay.

The Celtics lost to Atlanta because Avery Bradley got hurt.  He's a humble guy but he's also the leader of the team, not because he's such a great scorer, but because he's a world class defender.  Next year, the Celtics defense is going to be ferocious, frightening, especially if Brad can work Brown and Mickey and Zicky into the mix.  These Celtics aren't going to have to worry about scoring; it's their opponents who aren't going to be able to score.

Defense wins championships, no matter what the experts think.  The key moment in the just-concluded Finals was when LeBitch blocked somebody's shot with one minute left in Game 7.  A defensive play.  I can't remember how many Celtics championships were won on defensive plays  Havlicek stole the ball!!!

Cow,

Which Cal player is that?


bob

.

You mean this guy?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/russebi01.shtml

Johnny Mathis' friend.

Bill Russell went to USF in San Francisco, not Cal, which is on the other side of the bay in Berkeley (or, as some call it, Berzerkely).  USF is a Jesuit school.  Cal is UC.  Its formal name is the University of California at Berkely and is a much better school than the University of San Francisco.



bob


.

bobheckler wrote:Bill Russell went to USF in San Francisco, not Cal, which is on the other side of the bay in Berkeley (or, as some call it, Berzerkely).  USF is a Jesuit school.  Cal is UC.  Its formal name is the University of California at Berkely and is a much better school than the University of San Francisco.



bob


.

His word was "cali", no Cal.

There are all-stars and there are super super all-stars - i'LL CALL THEM THE ELITE.  Beginning with the 1979- 80 season through the 2015-16 season (37 years) - the championship team has had at least 1 elite player on its roster in 35 of the 37 years - and in the years leading up to the championship year, that player was an all-star during at least 70% of those years -  and in addition, that championship team posted a at least a .560 winning per cent the year prior to the championship year on 36 of those 37 years.
The 2003-04 Pistons and the 2014-15 Warriors were the only 2 teams with out, by my definition, an elite player. And the only team to win the title coming of a season of sub .560 ball was the the 07-08 Celtics and of course they added Garnett and Allen to a roster that already had Pierce. I'll jump with Joy if and when Danny grabs onto that elite player (Garnett) like he did in 2007.

 swish