Tell me your memories of a young Paul Pierce

This topic question is being asked for two reasons:

1. The last time I really remember watching a Celtic rookie and thinking "we just landed a guy who should be an all-star for a decade" was when Pierce broke in. If Jaylen Brown can make me feel like that again I will be overjoyed.

2. Pierce is still deciding if he wants to return for another season or retire. I am on the 'bring him back to Boston as the 15th man' bandwagon, but if that is out of the question than I want to see him retire over seeing him on LA's bench one more year. 

My favorite memories of a young Pierce come from his 4th season during the 2002 playoffs against the Sixers, Pistons and Nets. But I do remember as a rookie he scored double figures in like 12 straight games coming out of an annoying lockout, averaging like 20ppg and set the fanbase into a frenzy. I felt his dropping to 10th was the first gift the basketball God's had given us since the death of Lewis and retirement of Bird.

When he played at Kansas I knew he was a baller. When Boston drafted him and I watched him play I thought wow he is a really good 3 point shooter.

Dboss

I remember Tommy Heinshon saying that he thought the rook would be outstanding because he really knew how to use screens.

Heinshon had an understanding of the more subtle aspects of the game.

I'll share a couple negative things I've heard over the years:

I met a girl in Chicago who was in law school, and she went to Kansas with Pierce and said he was high on pot 24/7.

I know a guy who said he knew the guy who stabbed Pierce 11 times, and it was because Pierce kept running his mouth and humiliating him at a club.

A trainer from Northeastern U said that when KG showed up in Boston, he looked at Pierce's boozy lifestyle and wondered if he made the right decision coming to Boston.

When Pierce and his wife moved out of their 30,000 dollar a month rental apartment in Manhattan when Pierce signed with Washington, they left it completely totaled.

But boy were we lucky he fell to 10th in the draft, and I give Pierce a lot of credit for keeping it together in 2008 and beyond to win a championship and cement his legendary status.

I don't think there's any comparison off the court between Brown and Pierce though. But I sure hope there is on the court.

rambone your a gossip columnist now too? Rona Barrett is your cousin?

cowens/oldschool wrote:rambone your a gossip columnist now too? Rona Barrett is your cousin?

You'll have to buy the paper and find out on page 6.

The worst gossip about a Celtic I ever heard was about Rondo's ultimate betrayal of a teammate/roommate at Kentucky.

I'll stop gossiping though.

You should, I was a doorman/bouncer at some of the biggest nightclubs in NYC in the mid 80's and 90's, I partied with a few pro athletes and celeberties....and we should leave it at that.

The thing I remember about a young Paul Pierce is him saying he was going to punish every team that passed over him (we got him at #10) for the rest of his career.  That's when I knew he was going to be good.  He had a vision of who he was and how good he was and how good he wanted to be and he was pissed at everybody who didn't see it too and was going to rub their noses in it.  

I'm hearing the same thing from Jaylen Brown now.  He was taken #3, so he doesn't have that exact same chip on his shoulder, but he is saying he is going to prove all the people who thought it was a stretch to take him there, wrong.  He has all the physical tools.  He needs to work on creating "kill spots" on the floor for his jumper and, with his attitude, that will come (and there probably isn't a better coaching staff in the NBA to work with him on that).  I'm predicting he will already be killer in transition, in the uptempo fast break pace game Brad wants to play.  The more open court game we can play, the more Jaylen Brown is going to wow us.

Where Brown will truly excel, if he can make the transition, and where he will remind us of Paul Pierce, is if he can play SG on a regular basis like Pierce did when he was young, before Ray Allen came and he moved permanently to SF.  Just as Pierce was big for the position, so is Brown, even in this day and age.  The biggest SGs in the league right now are Klay Thompson and Jimmy Butler. Thompson is 6'7" 205#.  Brown is just as tall and at least 20# heavier.  Can he shoot like Thompson?  No, but few can, and Brown can get better.  His defense will work well at SG and he will be able to post up almost any SG.  Jimmy Butler is 6'7", 220#.  If/when his shooting improves he will make us forget about Jimmy Butler.  Right now?  Jimmy Butler is much better (and proven).  I love Jimmy Butler, but can he play SF?  Brown just needs those kill zones so he can shoot over his shorter defender with a high degree of confidence.  

All the players that were available @ 3 had flaws. Even Simmons (outside shot) and Ingram (195#) have flaws. A case could be made for taking any of them. Brown is the one we took and I'm good with that. Short of really stretching and taking Poetl #3 there were no high quality centers that were legit #3 picks and filling that obvious roster hole.


bob


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Yeah Bob, I too think Brown could be a beast at SG. I keep thinking of James Harden, big strong guard who can get to the hoop and ft line at will, and pull up from anywhere. Brown may or may not be the shooter that Harden is, and he probably isn't, but Brown has even more freakish tools at SG.

I was listening to the Bill Simmons podcast with Jimmy Butler to hear the part about Butler playing Brown 1 on 1, and at some point Butler said he weighs 235 even though he's listed at 225.

Joe Johnson played SG for many years at 240.

But those are rare exceptions, and I'd guess the average measurables for NBA SGs is something like 6'5, 205 lbs.

Compared to ABradley's 6'3, 185 lbs, Brown's 6'7, 225 lbs is in another zip code.

arambone wrote:Yeah Bob, I too think Brown could be a beast at SG. I keep thinking of James Harden, big strong guard who can get to the hoop and ft line at will, and pull up from anywhere. Brown may or may not be the shooter that Harden is, and he probably isn't, but Brown has even more freakish tools at SG.

I was listening to the Bill Simmons podcast with Jimmy Butler to hear the part about Butler playing Brown 1 on 1, and at some point Butler said he weighs 235 even though he's listed at 225.

Joe Johnson played SG for many years at 240.

But those are rare exceptions, and I'd guess the average measurables for NBA SGs is something like 6'5, 205 lbs.

Compared to ABradley's 6'3, 185 lbs, Brown's 6'7, 225 lbs is in another zip code.

There could be many comparisons for Brown, but Harden is not one that I think is accurate.
Harden is a superior ball handler and shooter. These are weaknesses of Brown's.
Their body types are very different too.
I think Brown's comparable is Trevor Ariza.
We will see if he will be a much better player than Ariza.

tjmakz wrote:

arambone wrote:Yeah Bob, I too think Brown could be a beast at SG. I keep thinking of James Harden, big strong guard who can get to the hoop and ft line at will, and pull up from anywhere. Brown may or may not be the shooter that Harden is, and he probably isn't, but Brown has even more freakish tools at SG.

I was listening to the Bill Simmons podcast with Jimmy Butler to hear the part about Butler playing Brown 1 on 1, and at some point Butler said he weighs 235 even though he's listed at 225.

Joe Johnson played SG for many years at 240.

But those are rare exceptions, and I'd guess the average measurables for NBA SGs is something like 6'5, 205 lbs.

Compared to ABradley's 6'3, 185 lbs, Brown's 6'7, 225 lbs is in another zip code.

There could be many comparisons for Brown, but Harden is not one that I think is accurate.
Harden is a superior ball handler and shooter. These are weaknesses of Brown's.
Their body types are very different too.
I think Brown's comparable is Trevor Ariza.
We will see if he will be a much better player than Ariza.

Brown is a good ball handler, and I stated clearly that Brown probably isn't the shooter Harden is. As far as body types, they're both 225 lbs, so saying their body types are very different is an exaggeration on your part.

arambone wrote:

tjmakz wrote:

arambone wrote:Yeah Bob, I too think Brown could be a beast at SG. I keep thinking of James Harden, big strong guard who can get to the hoop and ft line at will, and pull up from anywhere. Brown may or may not be the shooter that Harden is, and he probably isn't, but Brown has even more freakish tools at SG.

I was listening to the Bill Simmons podcast with Jimmy Butler to hear the part about Butler playing Brown 1 on 1, and at some point Butler said he weighs 235 even though he's listed at 225.

Joe Johnson played SG for many years at 240.

But those are rare exceptions, and I'd guess the average measurables for NBA SGs is something like 6'5, 205 lbs.

Compared to ABradley's 6'3, 185 lbs, Brown's 6'7, 225 lbs is in another zip code.

There could be many comparisons for Brown, but Harden is not one that I think is accurate.
Harden is a superior ball handler and shooter. These are weaknesses of Brown's.
Their body types are very different too.
I think Brown's comparable is Trevor Ariza.
We will see if he will be a much better player than Ariza.

Brown is a good ball handler, and I stated clearly that Brown probably isn't the shooter Harden is. As far as body types, they're both 225 lbs, so saying their body types are very different is an exaggeration on your part.

Harden is a superior ball handler and shooter.
Brown might be an average ball handler at best.
Their games have little resemblance.
Brown is slashing SF and very good defender.
Harden is one on one scoring machine who is a poor defender.
I see many resemblances between Ariza and Brown.
Unless Boston makes some trades, don't expect Brown to play many minutes at SG.
Whose minutes would he take?

James Harden, Freshman year at ASU vs Jaylen's freshman year:

FTA's/Game
Harden 6.6FTA/g
Brown   6.4 FTA/g

They're both big, strong, explosive guys who are truly elite at getting to the rim and getting to the FT line.

Just because Brown played SF in college doesn't mean he can't or won't play any SG in the NBA.

Who's minutes would he take at shooting guard? Bradley's and Smart's. While also playing plenty (and probably more) minutes at SF.

arambone wrote:James Harden, Freshman year at ASU vs Jaylen's freshman year:

FTA's/Game
Harden 6.6FTA/g
Brown   6.4 FTA/g

They're both big, strong, explosive guys who are truly elite at getting to the rim and getting to the FT line.

Just because Brown played SF in college doesn't mean he can't or won't play any SG in the NBA.

Who's minutes would he take at shooting guard? Bradley's and Smart's. While also playing plenty (and probably more) minutes at SF.

How do free throws equate to being similar players?
Many players average about 6 FT's per game.
Yes, Brown gets to the FT line because he is very athletic and he has a weak outside game.
Brown shot under 30% from 3 as a freshman.
Harden shot over 40% from 3 as a freshman.

I'm not saying Brown can't play some SG.
The positions mean little now a days.
I'm saying the Harden comparison is not very accurate.
Brown's game is not a one on one game like what Harden's strength is.

I think Boston is better off giving Bradley as many minutes as possible and play Brown and Crowder at the forward spots at times.
If Brad wants the pace and space to be even somewhat successful, taking Bradley out of the lineup for Brown is not the way to do it.

"How do free throws equate to being similar players?"

I explained that pretty thoroughly upthread, you just ignored it.

Same damn weight, same attacking mentality, similar explosive athleticism in addition to their elite strength for the SG position.

"Brown's game is not a one on one game like what Harden's strength is"
Yes it is.

And Brown's hero is Kobe Bryant, and Brown boldly stated he wants to be a top 5 player. Brown also has a reputation for being a bit of an aloof teammate, Harden is the extreme example of that aloofness.
Brown's passing is also suspect, like Harden.

Brown wasn't a top 3 pick, and top 3 prospect coming out of high school, because he's similar to Trevor Ariza.

If you can't see any similarities between Brown and Harden, I doubt I'm the guy who's going to convince you.

It is not unusual for players coming from college to the NBA to play a position smaller than the one they played in college.

Pierce was a SF at Kansas.  He played SG when he was young, pre-Ray Allen.
Jimmy Butler played some SF at Marquette.  He is now a SG exclusively.
Kelly Olynyk played center at Gonzaga.  He plays some center in the NBA but is really a stretch 4.

Harden is the better shooter.  He also offers cringe-worthy defense.

Brown's ball-handling might be better than just "average at best".  He was the primary ball-handler in the open court for Cal.



Ariza and Brown have some similarities but I don't see, and have never seen, Trevor Ariza play SG.  Ariza is a single-position defender, Brown will not be.  In today's positionless NBA, that is a big plus.  Last year, Ariza took 50% more 3pt fgas than 2pt fgas and only 25% at the rim.  Only 17% of Ariza's fgas were between 3'-3pt.  Could Brown end up as another Trevor Ariza?  Sure, he could be, and 6'10", 195# Brandon Ingram could be another Ralph Sampson, a player that had 3 great seasons and then injuries, due to him being 228# in a 7'4" body, took their toll.  None of us know...yet.


bob


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If you guys want Brown to play some minutes at SG, where do the minutes come from?
Are these not reasonable estimates?


PG:
Thomas 32 min
Smart 10 min
Rozier 6 min

SG:
Bradley 30 min
Smart 18 min
Hunter 0 min

If you take any minutes from Bradley, it hurts Boston to have two very poor shooters at SG in Smart and Brown.

But, that's Brad's call.

tjmakz wrote:If you guys want Brown to play some minutes at SG, where do the minutes come from?
Are these not reasonable estimates?


PG:
Thomas 32 min
Smart 10 min
Rozier 6 min

SG:
Bradley 30 min
Smart 18 min
Hunter 0 min

If you take any minutes from Bradley, it hurts Boston to have two very poor shooters at SG in Smart and Brown.

But, that's Brad's call.

TJ,

You're assuming all those players are on the roster in November. I do not.


bob


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bobheckler wrote:It is not unusual for players coming from college to the NBA to play a position smaller than the one they played in college.

Pierce was a SF at Kansas.  He played SG when he was young, pre-Ray Allen.
Jimmy Butler played some SF at Marquette.  He is now a SG exclusively.
Kelly Olynyk played center at Gonzaga.  He plays some center in the NBA but is really a stretch 4.

Harden is the better shooter.  He also offers cringe-worthy defense.

Brown's ball-handling might be better than just "average at best".  He was the primary ball-handler in the open court for Cal.



Ariza and Brown have some similarities but I don't see, and have never seen, Trevor Ariza play SG.  Ariza is a single-position defender, Brown will not be.  In today's positionless NBA, that is a big plus.  Last year, Ariza took 50% more 3pt fgas than 2pt fgas and only 25% at the rim.  Only 17% of Ariza's fgas were between 3'-3pt.  Could Brown end up as another Trevor Ariza?  Sure, he could be, and 6'10", 195# Brandon Ingram could be another Ralph Sampson, a player that had 3 great seasons and then injuries, due to him being 228# in a 7'4" body, took their toll.  None of us know...yet.


bob


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Ralph Sampson? Huh?
Sampson had knee issues, not because of him being thin.
Knee issues happen to big and small players.

I have not seen Ariza or Brown play SG.
My point is, Ariza and Brown have comparable games and body types.

bobheckler wrote:

tjmakz wrote:If you guys want Brown to play some minutes at SG, where do the minutes come from?
Are these not reasonable estimates?


PG:
Thomas 32 min
Smart 10 min
Rozier 6 min

SG:
Bradley 30 min
Smart 18 min
Hunter 0 min

If you take any minutes from Bradley, it hurts Boston to have two very poor shooters at SG in Smart and Brown.

But, that's Brad's call.

TJ,

You're assuming all those players are on the roster in November.  I do not.


bob


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Of course, we can only base this on current players.
What if Danny wants to sign another free agent guard?
We don't know if there will be more minutes available at guard come November.
There could be less.

Brown isn't a very poor shooter. And if you want to knock somebody's ball handling, start with Avery Bradley.

With Evan Turner likely leaving, it's important to have a quality secondary ball handler on the court at most/all times.

The more I think about it the more I think Bradley might be the odd man out, even though I love him as a worker and as a (limited) player.

arambone wrote:Brown isn't a very poor shooter. And if you want to knock somebody's ball handling, start with Avery Bradley.

With Evan Turner likely leaving, it's important to have a quality secondary ball handler on the court at most/all times.

The more I think about it the more I think Bradley might be the odd man out, even though I love him as a worker and as a (limited) player.

Brown shot under 30% from college 3 this year.
It is what it is.
Could he get better? Of course.
But the competition is also much harder and the line much further away.

I'm not bashing Brown. I think he could be the best pick for Boston long term.
He is probably going to make Boston's poor outside shooting worse.
Being a 65% FT shooter is concerning, because that makes it seem like he's just not a good shooter, even when open.