Comparing Eras

The comparison between Rondo and Cousy is inevitable

dboss

dboss wrote:The comparison between Rondo and Cousy is inevitable

dboss

yup. and a little film goes a long way to clarifying the comparison, IMO in Cooz's favor.

BUT Rondo is growing in ball handling and in dexterity and vision with his passes. his recent, increasing behind the back stuff is not for flash (just like Cousy's wasn't), it's within the game and it's just to make a play. He's not Cousy, but he is growing into something special.

Michael

Jeb,

I believe that, if asked those questions, Bird might have to admit he never saw Cousy and Russell play (he was about 13 when Russ retired). Cowens and Cousy would be ever the diplomats and praise Cowens and Bird to the heavens, and then they would go home and polish their rings. Russ would just slowly smile.

Sam

Sam

My guess is they all KNOW they would win. Every one of them just the very best and not a self doubt amongst em.

Michael,

Ironically, the film doesn't do full justice to Cousy's bag of tricks because they only videoed the big games, and he played it much more conservatively in the big games and in the clutch. For example, I have somewhere between 14 and 20 videos showing Cousy, and not one of them displays his air dribble.

There's no question that Rondo is growing into something special. Gaps will inevitably narrow between the two, and my own belief is that the gap that will most resist narrowing will be court sense. Part of that will be due to vision. And, while people speak of great court vision on the part of many players,

Cousy stands as the only one I know of whose vision was subjected to scientific tests that proved he could actually see well behind him. Rondo often peeks around him quickly to see who's there. The Cooz didn't have to. And another part of court sense relates to instincts. I think Rondo's most pronounced basketball instincts are athletically grounded. I believe Cousy's were more strategically grounded. Hia mind was truly was anywhere from two to four moves ahead of the play.

Sam

BobH,

You're right. Rondo's only playing with (probably) three HOF candidates. Cousy played with many more—virtually the entire rotation (except for Sanders and Loscy) in several years.

I think there's one reason why Hollinger doesn't emphasize all caveats (although he does reference some) in spewing his pop stats. The reason is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. He capitalizes on the fact that the public worships statistics; and usually, the more complex and incomprehensible the formulas are, the more they're worshipped. He leverages the fact that the ring of authority is better than no authority at all.

Sam

thanks for your thoughts and sharing your experience, Sam. and WOW - your collection doesn't reflect all of Cousy's magic ? !!! that's saying something right there !

how could Cousy see behind him ? scientific tests show that ? that's unbelieveable ! it wasn't just strategic anticipation in the flow of the game, huh ? incredible !

Rondo's recent spate of somewhat errant passes aside, he's certainly (to my eyes) growing in court sense and court vision as this season goes along - also in his ball handling skills on his drives. he dekes and feints with the ball so much when he's driving through "the painted area" (nods to Hubie) that no one can tell if he's going to dish or just drive it (including, apparently, his own teammates many times) ...

i appreciate the point you make about athleticism versus strategic thinking ...

and best regards,
Michael

Sam

Not sure the human limit of range of view. A quick google search indicates aproximately 180 degrees.

So if Cousy was a little beyond that just a slight turn of the head could accomplish quite an increase in his field of vision.

If he's well beyond that I have a photo of his relative below.



beat

Sam wrote:BobH,

You're right. Rondo's only playing with (probably) three HOF candidates. Cousy played with many more—virtually the entire rotation (except for Sanders and Loscy) in several years.

I think there's one reason why Hollinger doesn't emphasize all caveats (although he does reference some) in spewing his pop stats. The reason is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. He capitalizes on the fact that the public worships statistics; and usually, the more complex and incomprehensible the formulas are, the more they're worshipped. He leverages the fact that the ring of authority is better than no authority at all.

Sam

sam,

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" - Arthur C. Clarke's 3rd "Law of Prediction".

Same thing is true with math for a lot of people.

Might also explain Cousy's court vision. It's magic!!

bob

Michael,

If I implied that Cousy could see directly behind him, I'm sorry. What I should have said was that, when his field of vision was tested, it was far beyond the norm. If you watch some of his passes, you'll note that he doesn't "peek" as other PGs (including Rondo) generally do. I wish I still had the article (or a reference to it) where it discussed the test he took. What I did find was a considerably less scientific approach conducted by someone interviewing him for Sports Illustrated:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1140435/index.htm

The comments about Cousy’s vision were part of an interesting article on the very topic of this thread—basketball players then and now. One interesting point made by the author involves role players. In the distant past, a lot of players made good livings being role players. If those same players played today, there would be more pressure on them to excel in more facets of the game. The author says, “If asked to be more than a role player, many of the players of yore might have blossomed into all-arounders. The same knack around the basket that made Silas a peerless rebounder at 6'7", for instance, might have served him as a scorer, a la Adrian Dantley.”


It seems as though, every time one gets immersed in this topic, new perspectives emerge.

Sam

thanx to Sam for all his wonderful info on my boyhood hero. Sam has pointed out some of the differences between Rondo and Cousy, much better than I could do. One of the things that makes Rondo so special is that he can be compared to Cousy, when most pg's can't. I encourage everyone to journey back to the black and white film vaults and watch those games. They are a true joy to behold. THAT is how basketball should be played. One thing to keep in mind is that Rondo only had 2 years of college. He is so much better than most all other pgs in the league today that it is easy to forget how young he still is. Is Rondo the next Cousy? NO, but he is Rajon Rondo. all star pg for the 17 time Boston Celtics and that's good enuf for me.

mulcogiseng wrote:thanx to Sam for all his wonderful info on my boyhood hero. Sam has pointed out some of the differences between Rondo and Cousy, much better than I could do. One of the things that makes Rondo so special is that he can be compared to Cousy, when most pg's can't. I encourage everyone to journey back to the black and white film vaults and watch those games. They are a true joy to behold. THAT is how basketball should be played. One thing to keep in mind is that Rondo only had 2 years of college. He is so much better than most all other pgs in the league today that it is easy to forget how young he still is. Is Rondo the next Cousy? NO, but he is Rajon Rondo. all star pg for the 17 time Boston Celtics and that's good enuf for me.

mulcogi,

Hopefully for the 18-time Boston Celtics +

bob

/

hey Bob, u mean its not a 4gone conclusion? lol

mulco

no were done...give up. I can see the future.

To those who have been interested in the Rondo/Cousy comparisons, I was thinking both another similarity between them.

When Cousy joined the Celtics, Auerbach (who wasn't at all keen about Cousy at the outset) was a fast break fanatic (and he never wavered from that stance). So, stylistically, Cousy and the Celtics were ostensibly a marriage made in heaven. However, the Celtics of the early 50s were not able to maximize their fastbreaking potential because it takes great defense and rebounding to fuel a truly outstanding fast break. So six seasons (or nearly half of his career) passed before The Cooz was really able to let it all hang out.

Rondo's first few years have quite likely slowed his growth similarly, due to the fact that the stylistic preferences of his teammates (especially Pierce) have not allowed him to capitalize fully on his single greatest skill—open court passing. I'm hoping the next generation of the Celtics will be more regular proponents of up-tempo basketball, which should be right in Rondo's comfort zone.

This is just one more reason to delay definitive comparisons of Rondo and Cousy. Let's see what happens when the team is essentially built around Rondo rather than featuring a style he inherited.

In a sense, Rondo will have a more difficult first half of his career than Cousy did. At least Cooz had teammates who were more than willing to run and a coach who loved the style of ball that Cooz most exemplified. It took only the Russell catalyst to open up the flood gates for Cousy.

The coaching team that would have been ideal for Rondo's development would have been Nellie and Thibs. That will never happen. Both the rate of Rondo's progress and any possible ceiling on it will probably depend on two major factors: (1) coaching that firmly believes in uptempo ball coupled with stifling defense/rebounding and (2) the kind of roster athleticism we're now seeing pop up around the league.

The comparisons being made of these two players serve to underscore the mantra I may have uttered once or twice: It always has been, is now, and always will be all about the team.

Sam