Horford To BOSTON

http://www.celticshub.com/al-horford/



AL HORFORD IS THE UNSUNG HERO THE CELTICS NEED


By Jesse Alling On July 3, 2016 ·




This offseason for the Celtics has officially become a gigantic, whopping win.

They could not make any more signings or trades, and it would still be a win. Jaylen Brown could forget to fly to summer league, and it would still be a win. Kevin Durant could announce he’s resigning with the Thunder by tweeting out a photo of him farting on Tom Brady’s head, and it would still be an unbelievable win.

I’m not even referring to the karmic implications that the Celtics finally got a major free agent to sign. Although that’s pretty damn cool. A multi-time All Star had his current team throwing more financial security at him (apparently not fast enough) and another team offering more top-end talent (or so the argument would suggest), and he said, “You know what? I like what those quirky Boston idiots are doing. Sign me up.” That’s nothing to scoff at.

It’s more than that, though. Since Brad Stevens has taken the helm, the Celtics have always seemed to have the right idea and intentions, but no one could really carry them out on a consistent enough basis. Yes, there were plenty of beautiful kick-outs from IT, backdoor cuts from any of the guards, moving the ball corner to corner in gorgeous fashion. But, how often did they result in ugly missed shots or strange turnovers? Seeing how last year’s playoffs went, the answer is way too often.

This is where Horford comes in – Durant is easily the best player on the market right now, but you couldn’t dream of a player who fills more needs and solves more of the little problems this team had than Horford. He is the embodiment of the versatility and skillset this team has been trying to stock up on for years now.

Think of how many open 18-foot jumpers Jared Sullinger took over the past couple of seasons, and you never felt that great about it unless he was completely on fire. You know who loves open 18-foot jumpers (and a little bit further, perhaps)? Al Horford.

Or think of all the times the Celtics would struggle with quick guards who could get into the paint. They just signed the guy who helped anchor the defense that mostly quashed IT from the previous playoffs.

That’s the real beauty of this signing – Brad Stevens doesn’t even really have to change much. Horford is an All-Star, but he’s not one you have to build a gameplan around to make effective. He just slots in and does everything at a good level, at minimum. Every give-and-go with Isaiah, every pass from the elbow to a cutting guard, every rotation and recovery on defense, just got a lot more dangerous. A top 7 or so defense just became a top 3 defense. An inconsistent offense just became a legit offense.

This likely means the departure of Sullinger and Tyler Zeller, two able and willing bodies who definitely had their moments in green but were never quite able to string together a series of performances that made you feel they were putting it together. The playoffs were likely their death knell anyways – Sullinger was ineffective against the speed and range of Atlanta’s frontcourt (including, you know, Horford), and Zeller received sparing chances to show anything more than solid energy off the bench. The fact that Boston was desperate for any semblance of consistent big man play, and neither Sullinger nor Zeller could find their way onto the court for meaningful stretches, was very telling.

Now the team has options. A Horford-Olynyk pairing on the perimeter gives all those tiny guards on Boston the space to get into the lane that was so lacking against the Hawks. (No, seriously, how happy is Isaiah right now?)  Putting Horford with Amir creates an actual tandem in the paint that can support when the aggressive defense on the perimeter breaks down. He works in small ball, bully ball, long ball, you name it. And he does it all at an all-star level. That can’t be stressed enough.

There’s still work to be done to finish this team. They could still use another shooting wing or two, and they need to figure out who becomes the secondary creator now that Evan Turner is in Portland. Maybe it comes in the form of one of the best scoring swingmen of all time, maybe not. But for now, this is exactly the huge boost in talent this team needed to continue moving forward. They’re not at level with the Cavs yet, and they’re still probably level with Toronto in terms of raw talent. But this was a huge dose of “getting there”.

Fans have been clamoring for years now about just how good this team could be. It was always a hard sell, though – lots of “hope for the future”, “making due with what they have”, and “if they only had this then this strategy would work”. Now the rest of the league will begin to see in earnest just what they’ve been so excited about for the last couple of years. Yesterday was a very good day.


bob


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http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2016/7/3/12089326/al-horford-celtics-change-star-brad-stevens-kevin-durant



Al Horford changes everything for the Celtics
By Paul Flannery  @Pflanns on Jul 3, 2016, 8:24a 41


The stigma that Boston couldn’t land a major free agent is gone now. So is the critique that the Celtics lack a star. Al Horford changes all of that.



With one deft maneuver, the Boston Celtics improved their present and revitalized their future. The team that couldn’t sign big-name free agents just added one of the biggest on the market. The team without a top-20 player now has a four-time All-Star on its roster. And to think it was only 10 days ago when owner Wyc Grousbeck was booed on draft night by his own fans. Life comes at you fast.

All of the things that were true before the Celtics came to terms with Al Horford on a 4-year, $113 million deal are still in place. That is, they have a brilliant coach to go with a versatile and deep team and a cache of draft picks. But now they have a star and stars change everything. Not to mention, they have a star who didn’t force Danny Ainge to deal any of his core players or prime picks.

The Celtics are legit now in a way they weren’t before landing Horford. He not only gives them a defensive presence on the backline and a versatile offensive threat, but he also gives them credibility both now and in the future. For all the banners and lore and tradition of playing in Boston, their biggest free agent moves to date had been signing aging veterans like Rasheed Wallace and Jermaine O’Neal, or useful role players like James Posey and Amir Johnson. (You can throw Dominique Wilkins or Xavier McDaniel in there if you like, but that’s so last century.)


The team has always believed that their inability to lure big-time free agents to Boston said less about their circumstances than their opportunities. They weren’t in the running because they weren’t good and when they were good, they didn’t have any cap space. It was only last summer when they finally renounced long-dormant cap holds and officially freed up space. Semantics aside, until they landed a prime free agent the stigma was not going away.

Horford changes that narrative now and forever. He was a top-5 free agent and the biggest (so far) to change teams this summer. Thanks to Horford, the Celtics can now rightly boast of being the modern destination franchise they always believed they were. And with Horford in place, Ainge now has a significant drawing card to entice the ultimate free agent prize in Kevin Durant.

Even if he doesn’t land KD, Ainge has positioned his team to be a power in the Eastern Conference for the next few years. They may be closer to the Raptors than they are the Cavaliers in the conference hierarchy at the moment, but at the very least they have separated themselves from the muddled middle while dealing a serious blow to the team that knocked them out of the playoffs. (Long live the pace-and-space Hawks. It was a good run.)

Horford’s numbers are not overwhelming, but he has always been a true hoops connoisseur’s idea of a star and his presence solves a ton of problems for the Celtics. He’s a terrific mid-range shooter and a tremendous passer, all of which makes him an ideal pick-and-pop partner for Isaiah Thomas. Even with a top-10 offense, the C’s were one of the worst shooting teams in the league as evidenced by ranking 24th in effective field goal percentage. Now imagine Horford spotting up from 18 feet or hitting Avery Bradley on backdoor cuts from the high post.

His defense has long been his calling card, and while he’s undersized for a center, Horford is a master of positioning and should play well with Boston’s ballhawking guards. Even without a defensive anchor of Horford’s caliber, the Celtics still ranked fourth in points allowed per 100 possessions. This is a good team that just became very good.

Of course, very good is not Ainge’s endgame. He and the ownership group want to contend for championships and they haven’t been shy in expressing that desire. Ever since Grousbeck hinted at fireworks entering the 2014 offseason, the Celtics have made an art form out of raising expectations and then failing to deliver the goods. Whether it was the failed pursuit of Kevin Love, the inability to swing a draft-day trade for Justise Winslow or any other rumored trade that never happened, Ainge and the Celtics have taken a pounding locally for not landing a marquee player. That changes now too.

If the Horford signing winds up being this summer’s finishing move, Ainge is still far from done in his ongoing quest to remake the roster. He has those picks and he has his core players, some of whom will look increasingly appealing next to a player of Horford’s caliber. Depending on a few variables -- such as Durant’s decision -- the Celtics could also have space and flexibility to go after a star in next year’s free agent class, which is much deeper, or continue to explore the trade market. He’ll still be selling a future, but now it’s one that’s tied to a much stronger present.


bob


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bobheckler wrote:That's why they didn't offer him 5 years right off the bat, they thought he'd say "ok, whatever, good enough". Furthermore, I think they expected him to be ok with moving to PF....

“He didn’t want to play with Dwight,” a person familiar with the situation told CBS Sports.

Same bobheckler, different post wrote:As the family discussed the options, the conversation often returned to the uncommon passion of Boston’s fans. In Atlanta, support at home games was sometimes tepid, despite the fact that the Hawks had gone 108-56 over the last two years.

All this makes it sound like an easy decision for Horford. First, they don't offer five years (one of the key advantages a player's existing team has) until late in the process when it looks like they might lose him. Then they go get hometown guy and noted drama queen Dwight Howard, the opposite of no-drama, team-first Al Horford. Then factor in that Atlanta is the major city with the worst fan base in the country.

It also appears that the Hawks weren't in any sort of regular communication, or at least honest communication, with Horford. Communication is a marvelous thing and overcomes many obstacles. Lack of communication turns obstacles into mountain ranges.

Hey Gyso, glad to see Iverson's name get mentioned. As one of Danny's innumerable assets, he seems to have carved out a niche for himself in Europe but will he ever be ready for prime time? I think he thinks he is but have you heard of any interest around the league in him?

I was sitting up in my bed, playing on the computer, just waiting for some news to pop up about Horford. I just had the feeling something good was about to happen to the Boston Celtics. I turned on ESPN and they were chattering away about the trades, signings, etc when all of a sudden there was breaking news. I thought I would jump out of my skin when they made the announcement that Horford had made his decision and was coming to Boston.

Like the baby I am, I started to cry. Something good was happening to the team I love so much. KG all over again!! I have to tell you, the next thing that popped into my head was Sam. Boy would he be excited about this. All this coverage about his team doing things the right way, no tanking for us, just good, hard basketball and a genuinely smart GM.

So, I will say it if no one else will, come on KD, come to Boston, you will be a hero like no other. We will cheer for you when you are 30 points up, and even 30 points down! We will love you no matter what!!!

Okay, on to the day at hand and looking forward to Summer League to see if we have a diamond in the rough somewhere that every one will be jealous of!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ram wrote:

NYCelt wrote:Beat,

Watch some extended game video of Horford.  He gets pushed around by bigger centers all the time.  Interesting statistics, but watch him play.  If we're thinking build for a championship, that means ultimately playing against some of the big centers out west.

He may be better than what we've had at center, but he's way better as a power forward in today's game.  Especially now that he's developed that perimeter shot.  Also, his 15/7 averages are below his capability.  In the right position and system, he's quite possibly even a 20/10 guy.  We need to put him in the right situation to achieve that.

Regards

Only Steven Adams and DeAndre Jordan are big centers out west on contenders for a title and I'm not worried if Horford is guarding them. Same with Al on Green/Bogut or Aldridge, or Thompson of the Cavs. 

He is a very good defensive player. 

His rebounding numbers on the other hand are nothing to get excited about.

thats because he has gotten pushed around in that paint

Overall its a very good signing, he definitely is an upgrade over what we had last few years, he was a match up nightmare for Sully, probably leading to Sully's exit. Time goes on and Sully was exposed as too fat and slow and short to anchor the middle, why he refused to get in real NBA shape doesn't matter, he had plenty of time and chances. While I like seeing a monster in the middle, like what Adams did to GS or the young Perk just pounding foes relentlessly in the paint, Horford does alot of very good effective things and will fit in perfectly in our system. Hoping Zizic has the motor and rebounding ability I've read about and may have found a poor mans Barkley in Yubasele that could compliment Horford.

No he is not a beast down low but does so many things well.

Offensively he is a Perfect fit for us. What a great signing.

Dboss

mulcogiseng wrote:Hey Gyso, glad to see Iverson's name get mentioned. As one of Danny's innumerable assets, he seems to have carved out a niche for himself in Europe but will he ever be ready for prime time? I think he thinks he is but have you heard of any interest around the league in him?

Mulcogi,

We still have rights to him. I didn't see him on the Summer League roster, but maybe he will get a chance to show his game during preseason camp.

He has played mostly in Turkey. He played in another European league, but there were issues and he went back to Turkey. If he is ever going to be ready for the NBA, it may be getting to be now or never time.

gyso

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celtics/celtics_insider/2016/07/bulpett_al_horfords_arrival_proves_celtics_are_building



Bulpett: Al Horford's arrival proves Celtics are building something


Steve Bulpett Saturday, July 02, 2016




Credit: The Associated Press
Al Horford will be celebrating for Boston next season.



David Ortiz just became a bigger Celtics fan.

And the Celtics just became a better basketball team.

The agreement the Celtics reach Saturday with Al Horford, a buddy of Big Papi from their Dominican Republic ties, constitutes a major step forward for the Celts, both in terms of the product they will put on the floor next season and the message that it sends.

Horford's acceptance of a four-year max contract for a little more than $113 million is a sign that, despite the first round losses the last two seasons, the Celtics rebuilding project is on the right track.

Al Horford was part of the Hawks gang that busted the Bostonians in this year's postseason, and still he said he wanted to leave his club and join the C's.

The money was no factor. Horford could have gotten that elsewhere. This was about him judging that the Celtics were a team on the rise that he wanted to play for. This was about him eschewing warmer cities and choosing Boston.

This was Horford believing in the way Brad Stevens likes things done on both ends of the floor and knowing he will fit in perfectly.

This was a sought-after center trusting Danny Ainge's approach to the rebuild.

There is the expectation that Horford's presence will help with the recruitment of Kevin Durant, but even with Tom Brady running the two-minute drill for the Celtics contingent in Saturday's Hamptons meeting with the Thunder star, that issue may be moot. While some sources were saying late Saturday that Durant has been impressed by the presentations from the few clubs to which he has granted an audience, there is still the belief among many that he will return to Oklahoma City on at least a two-year contract with an opt-out after Year 1.

So maybe Horford doesn’t entice Durant now, but, in that latter instance, the same would be in play at this time next year when KD again gets to survey the market.

But even if Kevin Durant never tugs on a Celtics uniform, the signing of Horford is still a very good move on its own merits.

Beyond the fact that his size will help around the rim, it's been clear for quite some time that the Celtics are desperately in need of firepower. And while Horford, a career 14.3 points a game scorer who was up to 15.2 last year, won’t exactly give the Garden scoreboard operator carpal tunnel syndrome, he will get his share, and his shooting ability will open the floor for others and could make the offense far more productive as a whole.

We direct you to this quote from an NBA coach that ran in this space in the last few says. Of Horford and the Celtics, he said. "Oh, he'd be perfect there. Look at what they were trying to do with [Jared] Sullinger, and now put a guy in that spot who can make the shots. That would change their offense big-time."

Having said all that, and with all due respect, Al Horford is not a KD- or LeBron- or Steph-level star. Not even with his four All-Star appearances. But among those free agents with a real chance to be on the move this year (that leaves James out), Horford is near the top of the 2016 class.

So, yeah, a big free agent just picked Boston.

I've always thought the oft-repeated whine that the Celtics could never sign a marquee free agent to be profoundly specious. In this modern NBA world, the Celtics have never really had the money to go after an available uberstar as they do now -- times two. You can also throw in the fact that just a handful of the truly move-the-needle greats have ever pulled up stakes.

And if you don't get that the acquisition of Kevin Garnett was a de facto free agent coup, then you've simply not paid attention to the circumstances of that move as they've been repeatedly explained throughout the years.

One should take into account the number of key role players (James Posey, for example) who grabbed shorter money with the C's to be a part of a title-contending team.

As we've always noted, the first three factors free agents take into account are 1.) can they pay me? 2.) what's my role? and 3.) can this team win?

Money isn't a question for either Horford or Durant, and neither would be their role under Stevens, who has quickly gained a reputation around the league as being a coach who knows how to put players in position to succeed both individually and as a team.

With Horford signing with the Celts and Durant choosing for one of the precious handful of clubs he's considering a 48-win team that hasn't made it out of the first postseason round since 2012, it's clear the C's have done well enough that players are able to project a better club on the near horizon.

And while these kind of things don't necessarily crack the top three thoughts when free agents go shopping, the fact is players do talk about Boston's crowd and the way the game is treated there.

The Celtics still have much work to do to get their 2016-17 roster in gear -- and even more work beyond that to make this team a serious threat to be playing basketball in late May and -- gasp -- June.

But the successful recruitment of Al Horford is a most proper stride in the right direction.


bob
MY NOTE:  I think this article, and a few others I've read, strike right to the heart of the matter.  It's not whether or not Horford is big enough or young enough or any of that.  It's that one of the biggest free agents this year chose to come to Boston when there was money, crazy money, to be had everywhere.  "All things being equal", he picked us.  That says that Danny, with his almost sick obsession with draft picks and willingness to trade his mother if it got us an upgrade, is onto something.  It says we are on the right track.  It says that Brad is no longer seen as a 90-day wonderboy.  It says that we, the fans, are a force that is recognized and valued, and that is something we have control over.  These are entertainers.  A professional actor will step out onto the stage of an almost empty theater and deliver his/her lines exactly the same way as if the room is packed to legal capacity but there is a qualitative difference between the two that the performer is acutely aware of and appreciates.

It's hard to get your first all-star.  That's because All-Stars tend to be selected from winning teams and it's hard to have a winning team if you don't have even one all-star quality player.  Getting your second one is easier, as we are now seeing, because we have credibility.  Getting a 3rd one should be even easier still.  Who knows?  Maybe, not likely but maybe, we'll get our 3rd on or around Tuesday.


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bobheckler wrote:I'm not sure I understand the negative undercurrent on this thread.

Horford is a 4x all-star, including last year and the year before.  So it's not like he had a few good years when he was young and burst onto the scene and has fallen off in his 30 year old dotage.  

A 4x All-Star is not "a nice player".   That's a player that was selected by the All-Star coaching staff, who determined he was worthy of being on that squad, not by the ballot-stuffing buffoons who voted Kobe Bryant onto the All-Star team as a starter in 2013-2014 even though he tore his Achilles 6 games into the season.

I'd love the hear the opinions of board members like dboss and kj88 (or any others), who live in the Atlanta and have watched many Horford games.  I, for one, am not paying attention to his stats.  Horford is not a Dwight Howard/Hassan Whiteside/DeAndre Jordan type of center.  He is a modern, mobile center who will stretch and spread the floor on offense and can cover the perimeter on defense when there is a mismatch.  If you're out at the 3pt arc running a shooter off the line you're probably not going to get that rebound but you are the one responsible for creating the rebound by forcing a harder shot or a 2pt fgm rather thana  3pt fgm.

And even if one of those 3 are better and more desirable than Al Horford only Howard was available.  Whiteside was locked up and taken off the market by Pat Riley immediately.  Would you rather have Dwight Howard or Al Horford?  I'd rather have Horford.  Then again, I'd rather have a colonoscopy without anaesthesia than the Dwightmare.


bob


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A 4x All-Star is not "a nice player".


That was clearly a reference to my post but you misquoted me. i didn't say Horford's "a nice player." I said he's a VERY nice player. Just like the difference between calling you a nice guy or a VERY nice guy...

Horford's not a superstar. He's not a "great" player - I use that word sparingly. He's a VERY good player. A "VERY" nice player.

Be nice. Don't omit the "very" before it.

Your "very" good friend,
Steve

RosalieTCeltics wrote:So where does the KG signing stand with you?  I know he was traded, but had refused to sign any extension with them foIr a couple of years. KG finally gave in when they traded for Ray and decided that this was  a place where he could win a title.  So...............that to me is an important signing as he extended after he go traded.
If he continued to refuse to play here, NO TITLE 17.

I love the Horford signing but everything in it's proper perspective.  If this, by any chance, brings us KD, then I would have to agree. Until such time, I will go with other signings as being just as pivotable.

Great points in referencing this to the moves from that summer. If we are comparing this to KG and 2007 than Horford is Ray Allen. Ray was 32 at the time of that trade. off ankle surgery and signed for 3 more years at like 50 million (over 30% of the cap at the time). He was considered more of a risk to break down/decline over the final 1-2 years of that deal than I think Horford is to do so on his deal (which is less than 30% of the current cap). Just adding Ray to a team with Pierce and Big Al probably just makes Boston a playoff team. Like adding Horford probably only guarantees this 1st rd team a spot in the 2nd round. 

But Ray led to KG. Ainge couldn't have given up an asset like Big Al for just one year of KG. He had to get him to sign that 3 year extension and knowing they had him for four years made the whole thing happen. 

That is what this move is like with everything being about Durant. If Durant stays in OKC we won't be able to fully grasp the impact of the Horford signing until a year from now, when KD will almost certainly be on the market again. If we don't have Durant by July of 2017 AND Horford underperforms then maybe 50-50 hindsight will allow the naysayers to complain. But this is a risk Ainge HAD to take, and just to get a top FA to sign here to begin with is a huge boon for this city. The only complaint people can have about the Horford signing is that the money is obscene. Yes, it truly is. But maxing Horford was the only way he was coming here and the market is just silly stupid. Would you rather be paying Horford 28 million or Mozgov/Noah/Biyombo 18 million. Paying Horford 35% more than those guys (or 8-12% more of the projected cap for the next 2-3 years) is really not that big a deal.

steve3344 wrote:

bobheckler wrote:I'm not sure I understand the negative undercurrent on this thread.

Horford is a 4x all-star, including last year and the year before.  So it's not like he had a few good years when he was young and burst onto the scene and has fallen off in his 30 year old dotage.  

A 4x All-Star is not "a nice player".   That's a player that was selected by the All-Star coaching staff, who determined he was worthy of being on that squad, not by the ballot-stuffing buffoons who voted Kobe Bryant onto the All-Star team as a starter in 2013-2014 even though he tore his Achilles 6 games into the season.

I'd love the hear the opinions of board members like dboss and kj88 (or any others), who live in the Atlanta and have watched many Horford games.  I, for one, am not paying attention to his stats.  Horford is not a Dwight Howard/Hassan Whiteside/DeAndre Jordan type of center.  He is a modern, mobile center who will stretch and spread the floor on offense and can cover the perimeter on defense when there is a mismatch.  If you're out at the 3pt arc running a shooter off the line you're probably not going to get that rebound but you are the one responsible for creating the rebound by forcing a harder shot or a 2pt fgm rather thana  3pt fgm.

And even if one of those 3 are better and more desirable than Al Horford only Howard was available.  Whiteside was locked up and taken off the market by Pat Riley immediately.  Would you rather have Dwight Howard or Al Horford?  I'd rather have Horford.  Then again, I'd rather have a colonoscopy without anaesthesia than the Dwightmare.


bob


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A 4x All-Star is not "a nice player".


That was clearly a reference to my post but you misquoted me.  i didn't say Horford's "a nice player."  I said he's a VERY nice player. Just like the difference between calling you a nice guy or a VERY nice guy...  

Horford's not a superstar.  He's not a "great" player - I use that word sparingly.  He's a VERY good player.  A "VERY" nice player.

Be nice.  Don't omit the "very" before it.

Your "very" good friend,
Steve

Steve,

Apparently, I'm neither.

VERY well, I'll behave. Or fake it. Whatever.


bob


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Some interesting facts in regards to age:

- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is 12 years older than Magic Johnson. When they united in 1979 Kareem was entering a season during which he would turn 33 while Magic turned 20 just a few months before the start of his rookie season. 

- Horford just turned 30 a month ago. Marcus Smart turned 22 four months ago. Jaylen Brown turns 20 in October*. The point is, the two highest draft picks the Celtics have had (that they did not trade on draft night) since Billups and Mercer, who are expected to be HUGE parts of any championship run we may make in the next 4 years, are 8-10 years younger than the oldest guy expected to be part of that run. Many might question this, but the Lakers built a dynasty out of two guys 12 years apart. 

- Havlicek and Cowens were 8 years apart. 

- When KG and Ray joined Pierce in 2007 Pierce was 4 months younger than Horford is now, KG was a year older than him and Ray two years older than him

- KG had played roughly 37,500 minutes in the NBA (including playoffs) by the summer of 2007. Horford has played just under 23,000 minutes to date. 

* Interesting to note that Magic Johnson was only 2 months younger than Jaylen Brown entering his rookie season. Magic was 7 months removed from carrying MSU to an NCAA title over Bird as the MOP of the Final 4 and he was 8 months away from being the NBA Finals MVP carrying LA to a title over Dr. J while playing center for an injured Kareem. Wow.

Bob,

I don't think it's so much a negative undercurrent as it is some posters (myself included) trying to realistically assess what we have so far.  Horford helps on several fronts.  Perhaps, and we'll see soon, his biggest contribution will be making us relevant in the eyes of top tier players.  He's young enough to be around a while and may help sell the future of the team.  History is history.  We have a more glorious past than anyone, and that's nice, but we need to get players thinking about us being a force in the future.

Beyond that, and I can only speak for myself here, I think you look at any players strengths and weaknesses.  You can then determine where they best fit in your system.  Small ball and stretch forwards may be the trend, but are by no means the only way to win.  Horford may be able to contribute in multiple ways, but count me as one fan who thinks he's ideally suited as a power forward with a banger in the paint.  As teams try and copy Golden State, the old-style bangers may have advantages of their own.  Banger down low, a flexible Horford capable of pulling defenders out.  Change the unit and take the banger out and do your best Golden State.  Hey, even the Warriors put big mean old Festus in there for stretches.  Horford isn't a rebounder or rim-protector (man, I hate that over-used term, and I used it anyway), but pair him with one for around 20 minutes a game and now we're talking deep playoff run.

Good signing?  Sure.  Now let's see what we do next, and just how the pieces fit.

Regards

NYCelt wrote:Bob,

Horford isn't a rebounder or rim-protector (man, I hate that over-used term, and I used it anyway), but pair him with one for around 20 minutes a game and now we're talking deep playoff run.

Good signing?  Sure.  Now let's see what we do next, and just how the pieces fit.

Regards

The past 3 seasons Horford has averaged around 32 minutes a game and 1.4 blocks. He was a huge part of why Boston (and IT specifically) struggled to get to the rim vs. the Hawks. 

If KD doesn't come, then Amir will return. He averaged 1.1 blocks in 23 minutes per game last year. 2.5 blocks over 55 minutes from these two guys next season isn't too shabby. They also combine to get 1.5 steals. Both are known as highly intelligent defenders, who are quick to cover the pick and roll, jump out to contest perimeter shooting, play fantastic team defense and are advanced metrics darlings. I think our #7 ranked D last year will jump to top 3 next year if Amir joins Horford here. We might stay in the 6-9 range with Durant here, but obviously nobody cares about not being slightly better on D when you add a top 5 superstar.

The C's had a 3 year run from 2007-2010 where Perkins and KG manned the middle and provided and average of 59 minutes, 2.8 blocks and 1.5 steals. Neither Horford or Amir are 7'1" or Hall of Famers, and neither are 270 lbs like Perk or as intimidating as either of those guys. But if you want to go by stats, they'd be nearly as impactful.

Ram

As I said earlier WHO is that so called BIG rim protector that IS available?

The list is quite small and although a trade could happen I like the 2 first round picks we have in our back pocket and would hate to see them go for a Popeye Jones. The Nets are our best "asset" the next 2 seasons.

Think i'd rather have a really good shooter at this point than a "true" center cause they are a bit more easy to find.

beat

beat wrote:Ram

As I said earlier WHO is that so called BIG rim protector that IS available?

The list is quite small and although a trade could happen I like the 2 first round picks we have in our back pocket and would hate to see them go for a Popeye Jones. The Nets are our best "asset" the next 2 seasons.

Think i'd rather have a really good shooter at this point than a "true" center cause they are a bit more easy to find.

beat

Correct.

The Celtics HAD to get Horford as part of Danny's all-in for Durant strategy that almost certainly would lead to at least one title. We likely won't truly know the outcome of the plan until this time next year assuming KD stays in OKC. 

So there really is no great rim-protector out there right now to pair with Horford. MAYBE Ezeli could be had if GState matched Barnes offer from Dallas and can't afford to match an offer for Festus. The C's currently have 27 million in cap space waiting on the Durant decision. If he doesn't come here 12 million of it automatically goes to Amir, who Ainge has told will 100% be back if Durant isn't signing. 

So that leaves 15m in space. It could be enough to give Ezeli a Mozgov type contract. But will we want to? If the cap grows by 10-12 million next year and we'll need 32-35 in space to get Durant could the C's afford such an offer?

I too would rather have added a perimeter shooter. It would have been nice to give all 15 million we had left to 40% 3-point shooter and BC alum Jared Dudley on a 1 year deal with an option (similar to what Amir signed last summer). Alas, he took 3/30 to join the rebuilding Suns.

Ram wrote:

beat wrote:Ram

As I said earlier WHO is that so called BIG rim protector that IS available?

The list is quite small and although a trade could happen I like the 2 first round picks we have in our back pocket and would hate to see them go for a Popeye Jones. The Nets are our best "asset" the next 2 seasons.

Think i'd rather have a really good shooter at this point than a "true" center cause they are a bit more easy to find.

beat

Correct.

The Celtics HAD to get Horford as part of Danny's all-in for Durant strategy that almost certainly would lead to at least one title. We likely won't truly know the outcome of the plan until this time next year assuming KD stays in OKC. 

So there really is no great rim-protector out there right now to pair with Horford. MAYBE Ezeli could be had if GState matched Barnes offer from Dallas and can't afford to match an offer for Festus. The C's currently have 27 million in cap space waiting on the Durant decision. If he doesn't come here 12 million of it automatically goes to Amir, who Ainge has told will 100% be back if Durant isn't signing. 

So that leaves 15m in space. It could be enough to give Ezeli a Mozgov type contract. But will we want to? If the cap grows by 10-12 million next year and we'll need 32-35 in space to get Durant could the C's afford such an offer?

I too would rather have added a perimeter shooter. It would have been nice to give all 15 million we had left to 40% 3-point shooter and BC alum Jared Dudley on a 1 year deal with an option (similar to what Amir signed last summer). Alas, he took 3/30 to join the rebuilding Suns.

\Ram

Banking that cap space might be a prudent move for down the road too.

beat

beat wrote:
Ram

Banking that cap space might be a prudent move for down the road too.

beat

True

I'm curious to know about the whole 'extension' aspect of the new CBA. I only now hear it being brought up in regards to underpaid star players like John Wall with contracts up in 2 years or so. It sounded like teams can use cap space to give bonus money to guys on their roster spread that gets out over the remaining length of their deals. The money would be part of an extension signed that is tacked onto the current contract for no longer than 5 seasons total starting with 2016-17 as year one. 

Does anybody know the exact details of this? Sounds very NFL to me. 

For instance, Isaiah Thomas will be paid just 6.6 and 6.2 million over the next two seasons. He was an all-star this year, just turned 27 and was instrumental in making the C's both a playoff team the last two years and a FA destination. However, will we really want to give out a 4-5 year deal in the 100-130 million range for a 5'9" PG through his age 33-34 seasons when he hits the market in 2018?

If the Celtics pick up the Jerebko/Amir options and still have 10 million in cap space, it sounds like they can give IT say a 3 year 60 million extension. Put 10 million of it towards his next two seasons (so he makes 11.6 and 11.2 million now) and then we'd have him at around 17 million per year ages 30-32 and escape probably having to owe him 20+ million ages 33 and 34. Thomas of course gets an extra 10 million over the next two years, the guarantee of another 50 mil after age 30 (even if he gets hurt/regresses) and if that 10m is invested properly it could make his financial future much more secure and probably make up for much of what he might lose out on if he waits.

what about Bradley, he is unhappy with his contracr. Unlike Thomas, he has talked publicly about it in some reports last year. Wasn't he 4 yrs/32 million? I am no money expert like Bob and Gyso, and NYCelt, but he is definitely underpaid. Thomas has gone out of his way to become a true Celtic, an all star, and truly underpaid also,

It is too bad when things like this happen. Guys that bust their butts for an organization and sit beside a guy making triple/ quadruple whet they make

RosalieTCeltics wrote:what about Bradley, he is unhappy with his contracr. Unlike Thomas, he has talked publicly about it in some reports last year.  Wasn't he 4 yrs/32 million? I am no money expert like Bob and Gyso, and NYCelt, but he is definitely underpaid.  Thomas has gone out of his way to become a true Celtic, an all star, and truly underpaid also,

It is too bad when things like this happen. Guys that bust their butts for an organization and sit beside a guy making triple/ quadruple whet they make

If the scenario I described is even possible under the CBA (still hoping someone here knows more info), I think the Celtics would feel out the agents for both players. It is just far more likely Thomas looks at it as helpful to both sides and the right thing to do. 

IT owes a lot more of his career to Danny and Brad than Bradley does and will be 29 when hitting free agency. Bradley will be 27 and looking to get at least Evan Turner money in today's market, 4/70. There is little to suggest he won't still be an all-NBA defender at that time shooting close to 40% from 3. Thomas could go in two directions. At 5'9" he can't afford an injury in which he loses a step, then he ends up falling down to Rondo/Deron Williams level and getting 10-14 million over 1-2 years. The best he can hope for if he leaves the C's is like the 4 year 113 million Horford just got (with inflation of course). Getting 10 million upfront would mean more to him because he makes 2 million less right now that Bradley, 8 million to 6 million, and then splitting his best case/worst scenarios with a 3 year 50 million extension is a safe play. 

I see there being a greater chance of Thomas falling off by age 29 (like a 25-30% chance) then I do of Bradley not being the same player he was the last two season (10-15% chance). Just that and the way Thomas is actively recruiting FA's and putting team first makes him more likely to choose such a deal. 

Also it has to be one or the other. When talking 10 million in cap space that is just enough to be meaningful over two years to have a guy take less on the extension. 5 million won't cut it. They might as well wait for free agency. So all the cap space would have to go to one guy and my gut says it would be Isaiah.