Frontline Still Can't Get It Done

by **sdceltfan** Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:26 pm

Celtic frontline woes continued against the Spurs and OKC. Garnett, Perkins, Pierce, and Wallace just are not moving laterally well enough to play stifling defense and rebound. It is lack of floor coverage that is killing the Celtics all season long. 3 things are are becoming SO obvious:

1) the Celtics as a team become zombie-like after 4-5 passes on offense AND defense. Teams that space the floor, move the ball from side to side, and remain patient are rewarded with wide open shots all over the floor. The Celtics initially play good defense, but only for initial opponent offense thrust. Then they lose track of everyone. Rebounds included. Offensively the Celtics have improved their rythm, but after initial play has run its course, again the Celtics bog down to isolationism - movement comes to a complete halt.

2) the difference between Posey in '08 and Wallace this year is light years. Whereas Posey HAD lateral movement and took charges, Wallace has little or no lateral movement and takes NO charges. Wallace is one of the worst defensive forwards in the NBA in my opinion. He has great hands, but NO lateral movement. He settles for foul after foul.

3) opponents are driving without fear of frontline movement to stop them. Charges are not being taken. Another indication to me that the Celtics just do not care enough to get "down and dirty". Frontline support just isn't consistently happening for 48 minutes, and that to me means the effort isn't there. When Ginobli and Durant continually drive the middle from the top of the key, with no one there to offer resistance, what is one to deduce? The attitude to stop the ball at all costs is nowhere to be seen. Again, I ask how many charges have Perkins, Wallace, and Garnett taken this year?

Is it possible for this to change? Possibly, but very little indication has been reflected by this ballclub that it will. I love the Celtics, have for 50 years. But this certainly isn't one of my favorite Celtic clubs. When their heart and pride grow, so will my respect for them.

by **Pumpsie Green** Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:06 pm

SD, some people here do not want to hear the truth that you have written. You risk ostracization (is that a word?).
I agree with nearly everything you have written here. The only item that I would clarify is that a whole lot of teams have trouble with opponents that "space the floor and move the ball from side to side". That is a major part of what a good offense is.
I too am seeing either a lack of defensive effort or a lack of defensive ability. I am very disappointed in the lack of emphasis on defense and rebounds. They talk a mighty talk, but walk meekly. There are only two guys who regulary take charges: Davis and Pierce. While I don't want to see KG on the floor much, the rest of those big guys should have taken a long hard look in the mirror much earlier this year. Its too late now, most likely, to reverse course. As for Wallace, he is just pathetic. The only thing he is contributing is down on the low post. When he launches his laughable attempts at 3's, when he either reaches in for a foul or just steps out of the way of an opponent driving to the rim, or when he goes of on his counterproductive tirades and gets a T, he hurts the team. And we are stuck with his antics for THREE MORE YEARS!. What a mistake he was.
We are nearly all Celtics fans here SD (with a few welcome Lakers fans from time to time) and its frustrating for all of us to see such a talented team play in such a mediocre way. Guess we have to just accept that this is going to be the way things are for a few years.

by **steve3344** Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:07 am

Pumpsie Green wrote:SD, some people here do not want to hear the truth that you have written. You risk ostracization (is that a word?).
I agree with nearly everything you have written here. The only item that I would clarify is that a whole lot of teams have trouble with opponents that "space the floor and move the ball from side to side". That is a major part of what a good offense is.
I too am seeing either a lack of defensive effort or a lack of defensive ability. I am very disappointed in the lack of emphasis on defense and rebounds. They talk a mighty talk, but walk meekly. There are only two guys who regulary take charges: Davis and Pierce. While I don't want to see KG on the floor much, the rest of those big guys should have taken a long hard look in the mirror much earlier this year. Its too late now, most likely, to reverse course. As for Wallace, he is just pathetic. The only thing he is contributing is down on the low post. When he launches his laughable attempts at 3's, when he either reaches in for a foul or just steps out of the way of an opponent driving to the rim, or when he goes of on his counterproductive tirades and gets a T, he hurts the team. And we are stuck with his antics for THREE MORE YEARS!. What a mistake he was.
We are nearly all Celtics fans here SD (with a few welcome Lakers fans from time to time) and its frustrating for all of us to see such a talented team play in such a mediocre way. Guess we have to just accept that this is going to be the way things are for a few years.

Sheed is signed for two more years after this one, not three more years.

by **MDCelticsFan** Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:01 am

I think we should trade "Sheed, and either Pierce, or Garnett along with one or two others (except Rondo & Daniels) to Portland if they can be persuaded to part with Greg Oden. I know he's been frequently injured, but I don't think he's the second coming of Sam Bowie, he could be the second coming of Robert Parrish. With the limited options open to Boston in the off season, I'd rather the team take this route. Boston's not getting James, Wade, or Bosh so another route has to be taken to get younger. I'd like to see Wyc & Ainge roll the dice this way instead of crapping out with the old crew the C's have now. Let's assemble a young core that can get up and down the court and has the energy and commitment to defend for 48 minutes. This way, when things come together, the C's will have a core of players much like the 80's and 50's & 60's that can compete for the better part of a decade. This is a more positive proactive option than a yearly free agent signing of someone well past his prime!-MD.

by **beat** Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:10 am

MD

NO WAY PLEASE not Oden

The guy has played 61 games the one season he did play. (middle one of 3 so far) and his numbers were not that great either. 21 mpg 9 ppg 7 rpg
This year prior to his injury 21 games, 24 mpg 11 ppg 8.5 rpg.

Not saying we should not look at various moves just not for Oden.
Parish never suffered season ending injuries he just played in oblivion errr I mean Golden State for 4 years. (well same thing)

beat

by **mrkleen09** Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:04 am

We didn't hear a peep from SD and Pumpsie when the Celtics were mowing their way through Texas...now they are everywhere.

Coincidence? Rolling Eyes

by **MDCelticsFan** Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:15 pm

Beat: Golden State wasn't exactly oblivion in the mid 70's when Rick Barry, Butch Beard, Gus Williams, Jamal Wilkes, George Johnson, Jeff Mullins and Cliff Ray mowed the Bullets down 4 straight in the '75 Finals!-MD.

by **beat** Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:36 pm

MD

True GS was a little bit different then.
That 75 team was a nice bunch. Saw them the following year in Buffalo
March 2 1976..........I remember it well (big ice storm in Western NY)
Barry went nuts and scored 23 in the 4th quarter alone, but I do not recall what he ended up with.

beat

by Guest Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:48 pm

MDCelticsFan wrote:I think we should trade "Sheed, and either Pierce, or Garnett along with one or two others (except Rondo & Daniels) to Portland if they can be persuaded to part with Greg Oden. I know he's been frequently injured, but I don't think he's the second coming of Sam Bowie, he could be the second coming of Robert Parrish. With the limited options open to Boston in the off season, I'd rather the team take this route. Boston's not getting James, Wade, or Bosh so another route has to be taken to get younger. I'd like to see Wyc & Ainge roll the dice this way instead of crapping out with the old crew the C's have now. Let's assemble a young core that can get up and down the court and has the energy and commitment to defend for 48 minutes. This way, when things come together, the C's will have a core of players much like the 80's and 50's & 60's that can compete for the better part of a decade. This is a more positive proactive option than a yearly free agent signing of someone well past his prime!-MD.

Even if both teams were interested in this trade, Portland doesn't have enough in salaries to send back to Boston.
I doubt Portland would have any interest in taking back the large salaries of Wallace, Pierce or Garnett.

by **bobheckler** Fri Apr 02, 2010 3:42 pm

MDCelticsFan wrote:I think we should trade "Sheed, and either Pierce, or Garnett along with one or two others (except Rondo & Daniels) to Portland if they can be persuaded to part with Greg Oden. I know he's been frequently injured, but I don't think he's the second coming of Sam Bowie, he could be the second coming of Robert Parrish. With the limited options open to Boston in the off season, I'd rather the team take this route. Boston's not getting James, Wade, or Bosh so another route has to be taken to get younger. I'd like to see Wyc & Ainge roll the dice this way instead of crapping out with the old crew the C's have now. Let's assemble a young core that can get up and down the court and has the energy and commitment to defend for 48 minutes. This way, when things come together, the C's will have a core of players much like the 80's and 50's & 60's that can compete for the better part of a decade. This is a more positive proactive option than a yearly free agent signing of someone well past his prime!-MD.

MD,

First of all, Oden only makes $6.8M this year. That means it could be a straight up deal for Sheed, but that's about it. Think Portland would trade Oden for Sheed straight up? I sure don't. If they weren't willing to even try for Odom this past offseason for around $8-10M, they won't go for Sheed for around $6M.

Secondly, Oden may not be the second coming of Sam Bowie, but that's mostly because the #2 pick that year, Kevin Durant, is no Michael Jordan. His level of play is about the same as Bowie's when he plays but he rarely plays. And if we got him, would he start or Perk? How do you think either one of those NBA starting centers would feel about becoming a bencher?

Sam Bowie; per game: 10.9ppg, 45%fg, 30%3pt%, 75%ft%, 7.5rpg, 1.8bpg, 2.1apg, 1.9TOpg
Greg Oden; per game: 9.4ppg, 58%fg, 0%3pt%, 67%ft%, 7.3rpg, 1.4bpg, .6apg, 1.5TOpg

At least Bowie could be trusted to take care of the ball.

Here are the players, in order of selection, in the 2007 draft. How many would you rather have than Greg Oden now?

1. Greg Oden
2. Kevin Durant
3. Al Horford
4. Mike Conley
5. Jeff Green
6. Yi Jianlian
7. Corey Brewer
8. Brandon Wright
9. Joakim Noah
10. Spencer Hawes

As far as I'm concerned I'd rather have every single player drafted after Oden (which is to say all of them) except for Yi (I wish I could remember who at BDC was so gaga over Yi) and maybe Mike Conley.

Here's the 1984 draft:

1. Hakeem Olajuwon
2. Sam Bowie
3. Michael Jordan
4. Sam Perkins
5. Charles Barkley
6. Mel Turpin
7. Alvin Robertson
8. Lancaster Gordon
9. Otis Thorpe
10. Leon Wood

Honorary Mention: Kevin Willis was picked #11, John Stockton was picked #16. Quite a few other players picked below them had fine NBA careers too.

Of these top 10 picks, I'd pick all of them over Bowie except maybe Lancaster Gordon and Leon Wood.

What I'm saying is that compared to the constellation of stars that came out in Bowie's draft, Oden's draft looks much more pedestrian. I see Durant making the HOF out of that draft and that's about it. Bowie's draft has 3 HOFers in the top 10 and Stockton going to the hall from sixteenth. Yet, Oden looks as bad in his draft as Bowie did in his draft but Bowie's draft was significantly better than Oden's. Looking as bad in a weaker draft is not good.

Oden for Sheed? Sure, maybe. The rest of the package you suggested? NFW.

bob

/

by **sdceltfan** Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:36 pm

I believe Wallace is Ainge's biggest mistake. I am a firm supporter of Ainge, and trust his decisions to this day, but I feel Wallace brings an attitude and mentality to this team that is eroding. His defense is atrocious and his re bounding (or lack of it) has been appalling.

His potential is much greater than his performance, but potential will not save the Celtics' season. Whether he can suddenly uplift his game for the playoffs is anyone's guess. I have been absolutely shocked over his lack of lateral movement on defense. He seems to still have the athleticism. What it will take for him to cover the floor more aggressively remains to be seen.

Celtic fans will be praying that Wallace finds Celtic pride soon! There is not much time left this year!

Again, I pray that the Celtics find a way to get Bosh for next year.

Go Celtics!!

by **mulcogiseng** Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:57 pm

It's real easy to pick on Sheed but anyone who really knows the game know that he is NOT a worthless player, someone who plays no defense nor is he the reason the C's aren't winning more games this year. He could possibly be the main culprit in what? two or three losses this year? He can be great on defense but his problem is not lack of talent nor ability, it's lack of trying all the time. When he does try, he can be great. and has been. As far as Oden is concerned, he has done nothing in the NBA. nothing at all. Why would anyone want him now? His only real value is in fantasy land, not fantasy hoops, you have to be able to get on the court to do well even there. oh well...

by **Sam** Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:42 pm

BobH,

I don't know that BDC was so high on Yi as much as betting that Danny would select Yi. I felt that way because another member of BDC slipped me information he had obtained from one of the Celtics' coaches to the effect that, if the Celts didn't make a trade, they were going for Yi.

Sam

by **bobheckler** Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:44 pm

Sam wrote:BobH,

I don't know that BDC was so high on Yi as much as betting that Danny would select Yi. I felt that way because another member of BDC slipped me information he had obtained from one of the Celtics' coaches to the effect that, if the Celts didn't make a trade, they were going for Yi.

Sam

sam,

Another reason to Thank God for Ray Allen!!

bob

/

by **cowens/oldschool** Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:13 am

sdceltfan wrote:I believe Wallace is Ainge's biggest mistake. I am a firm supporter of Ainge, and trust his decisions to this day, but I feel Wallace brings an attitude and mentality to this team that is eroding. His defense is atrocious and his re bounding (or lack of it) has been appalling.

His potential is much greater than his performance, but potential will not save the Celtics' season. Whether he can suddenly uplift his game for the playoffs is anyone's guess. I have been absolutely shocked over his lack of lateral movement on defense. He seems to still have the athleticism. What it will take for him to cover the floor more aggressively remains to be seen.

Celtic fans will be praying that Wallace finds Celtic pride soon! There is not much time left this year!

Again, I pray that the Celtics find a way to get Bosh for next year.

Go Celtics!!

not siqning Chris Anderson last year when Ainge brought him in to workout,then siqned Patrick O'Bryant instead and not siqning Matt Barnes last year were two other bad moves.

by **RosalieTCeltics** Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:22 am

Just watching game after game and seeing the defense fall apart is so disturbing. Paul Pierce has been torched repeatedly by players he is supposed to be guarding. It is unbelievable that this is happening to such an intelligent team. Baby is totally frustrated, everytime he goes up for a shot, someone is blocking it and he just gets so mad that it effects the play at the other end of the court because he doesn't get back in time to really defend.

Where do we go from here?? Blow everything up???? I can't believe Danny would trade Kevin or Paul, but I am afraid Ray's time here may be coming to a close. (By the way, homer or not, some of those calls against him tonite were ridiculous!) I think Donaghy is right, when ref's don't like a team they
make sure to llook the other way!

The Celtics lost tonight because they played stupid, plain and simple. What the heck was Pierce trying to prove holding the ball that long and then taking a shot that had not even a prayer of getting in. Why he handles the ball at the end of a game is beyond me. How many times this year has he
taken the ball for the last shot, and either not gotten it off or missed by a mile. He should have been driving to the basket!

Just frustration coming out, I keep hoping against hope that the light will go on. I hate to think that the playoff's will be one and done.

by **cowens/oldschool** Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:12 am

right now Rosalie theres alot of legit concerns with this team,we play well for a stretch then some aspect of the game collapses,offensive rebounding,perimeter D,missed FT's......should we rest the old guys soon to try to be fresh for the playoffs?

by **sdceltfan** Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:32 am

Rosalie, I have been frustrated like yourself for a whole lot longer, as you know. I have called it lack of professionalism, lack of energy, lack of pride, you name it.

This team has been disappointing, to say the least. With all of this veteran leadership on the floor, close games in the 4th quarter should go into the win column. Young, inexperienced teams are beating the Celtics on the Celts' home floor. Disappointing!!

When you shoot over 50% at home and lose, there is something drastically wrong with your defense. Twice after taking 5 point leads late in 2nd half, the Celtics fouled the youthful Rockets, putting them on the free throw line for free throws. At the end of at least 2 quarters the Celtics gave up 3-point shots, Not a defense to be proud of at this time. Now that is disappointing!

by **bobheckler** Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:05 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:
sdceltfan wrote:I believe Wallace is Ainge's biggest mistake. I am a firm supporter of Ainge, and trust his decisions to this day, but I feel Wallace brings an attitude and mentality to this team that is eroding. His defense is atrocious and his re bounding (or lack of it) has been appalling.

His potential is much greater than his performance, but potential will not save the Celtics' season. Whether he can suddenly uplift his game for the playoffs is anyone's guess. I have been absolutely shocked over his lack of lateral movement on defense. He seems to still have the athleticism. What it will take for him to cover the floor more aggressively remains to be seen.

Celtic fans will be praying that Wallace finds Celtic pride soon! There is not much time left this year!

Again, I pray that the Celtics find a way to get Bosh for next year.

Go Celtics!!

cowens,

I don't remember Ainge bringing in Birdman for a tryout. I WANTED him to, but I don't remember him doing it. If you're right, that was a mistake.

bob

/

not siqning Chris Anderson last year when Ainge brought him in to workout,then siqned Patrick O'Bryant instead and not siqning Matt Barnes last year were two other bad moves.

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