Re: Nate 'Tiny' Archibald: 'I wished I had 10 basketballs' on 1980-81 Celtics

by **swish** Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:38 pm

NYCelt wrote:
swish wrote:
NYCelt wrote:
swish wrote:
gyso wrote:Swish,

There was a cool article there about Carl Yastrzemski from 1961, before his rookie season. He was my all time favorite Sox player. It was a very fun read.

gyso

Obviously your a big Sox (gyso) fan. You couldn't go wrong with him as your favorite. A lot in common with Havlichek. Yaz and Hondo - big time Boston favorites.

swish

Everyone here seems to be a Sox fan (yes, I realize where I am)

My son is a Yankees fan.

How can this Orioles fan find any peace?

NYCelt

Yankee fan since 1946. If your son has any questions about the "Yankee Clipper",or any other of those old time Bronze Bombers, tell him to fire away. Imagine being a Yankee fan in the 40's,50's and 60's and than having the good fortune to witness the Celtics glory years of the 50's and 60's. I grew up in sports heaven.

swish

Swish,

Another Yankee fan; just what I need.

My mom just turned 90 and drives around with a Derek Jeter bobblehead stuck to her car's dashboard.

I'm getting razzed by my 12 year old son and 90 year old mom about the past two games the Evil Empire has blown out my O's.

Worse yet, I'm discussing it on a Boston sports board. Bumpy road here. Very bumpy!

Regards

NYCelt

Sounds like the dark side of being a sports fan. I'll send you a pair of orange tinted glasses to help get you through these tough times.

swish

by **Ram** Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:58 pm

mrkleen09 wrote:Enjoying this discussion...and clearly seeing it as unlying a greater issue. That everyone is ready for the season to begin.

I can see both sides here, but as with most other discussions about "favorite this or that", it comes down to person preference as much as stats.

My favorite Celtic is Kevin McHale and IMO, he is a perfect example of someone who sacrificed his career stats for the glory of the team. I have no doubt in my mind that if Kevin played for almost any other team in the NBA, he could have led the league in scoring and maybe rebounding and blocks as well.

His 1986-87 season was one of the best I can remember. First team All NBA, First Team All Defensive, nearly 61% FG%, 26 PPG, 10 RPG, 3 assists, 2.5 blocks- and this was on a team with Bird outscoring him almost every night taking 20 shots per game.

In addition, Kevin McHale significantly shortened his career by playing while injured. He gave his heart, soul and body to the City of Boston. If he had not done this, he would have played 3 or 4 more years and had much better lifetime stats. So unless you can predict the unpredictable, not sure how you can even use stats as the only criteria for picking A over B.

So my all time starting 5 is

Russell
Bird
McHale
Pierce
Havlicek

Does that mean that I dont like or respect Sam Jones or Bob Cousy? Not at all, just my opinion.

I would not take Tiny over Cousy, but I dont see how anyone's opinion can be dismissed considering stats are only part of the story.

Great comment. Those five guys are probably the 5 most talented Celtics of all-time who also played 10+ years with the team.

It can easily be argued (for the reasons you listed above) that McHale be ahead of Jones on the all-time list. I chose Jones for being the Ray Allen, pre-MVP seasons Steph Curry of his generation and all those rings combined with the better career stats. But it is close.

Nobody is trashing the idea that you can have a favorite player here. Nobody is saying an opinion like Tiny was more talented during his 5 years in Boston than Cousy at any point in his 13 isn't a valid one.

What is being said is that it is a FACT that Cousy is quite a bit higher on a list of all-time Celtics than Tiny is. There is no debating that. You can't play 5 years with a team and be vaulted above someone of Cousy's stature in the organization who played 13 years with better stats and more awards.

by **pete** Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:27 pm

swish,

Interesting stats from the different eras, thanks for doing that.

So, let me mix it up a bit. Pick a starting 5, or a whole team for that matter, from any era, but you have to pick players from non-Celtic teams. I was thinking who would I pick for a center Kareem, or Wilt, tough one!

Pete

by **swish** Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:47 pm

pete wrote:swish,

Interesting stats from the different eras, thanks for doing that.

So, let me mix it up a bit. Pick a starting 5, or a whole team for that matter, from any era, but you have to pick players from non-Celtic teams. I was thinking who would I pick for a center Kareem, or Wilt, tough one!

Pete

Didn't want to leave out the Celts. I ranked the players from left to right so if you take out the Celts you will have my Non Celtic ranking.

First 3 decades now - the rest to follow. Ask 100 people and you probably get 100 different opinions - in fact, I would probably make some changes as soon as tomorrow.

The 50's
Center only - Russell, Johnston
Guard -Cousy, Sharman, Costello
Forwards -Pettit, Schayes, Sears

The 60's
Center only - Wilt, Russell
Guard - Robertson, West, S. Jones
Forwards - Baylor, Lucas, Pettit

The 70's
Center - Jabbar, Lanier
Guard - Frazier, Maravich, Archibald
Forward - Hayes, Hondo, Barry

swish

And here's the balance

The 80's
Center - Olajuwon, Jabbar
Guard - Jordan, Magic. ,,,,,,, and a photo finish amongst several others
Forward - Bird and then argue forever over McHale, Malone, Barkley, Erving, King and others

The 90's
Center - O'Neal, Robinson, Olajuwon
Guard - Jordan, Stockton, Reggie Miller
Forward - K Malone, Barkley, Pippen

The 00's to the present
Center - O'Neal Duncan
Guard - Bryant, Curry, Allen
Forward - James, Durant, Garnett

Pete - Now get out your shredder

swish

by **cowens/oldschool** Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:57 am

WTF where is Dave Cowens? Lanier was good, Cowens was better then and would be better in todays small ball and pace and space.

by **swish** Mon Aug 29, 2016 2:08 am

cowens/oldschool wrote:WTF where is Dave Cowens? Lanier was good, Cowens was better then and would be better in todays small ball and pace and space.

Now there's a shocker - You taking Cowens over Lanier!!!. My bet would be that Cowens gets the nod in Boston and the Detroit fan jump on to the Lanier band wagon and the Vegas money calls it a draw. As far as Cowens being a better fit in the modern game - Defending the perimeter - yes,,,, defending the lane maybe not,,,,,Shooting from the outside - no. On the other hand Lanier was a perfect fit for low post scoring and defense but would have been abused out in no mans land. Nothing more than an opinion on my part. Don't take this to serious - Wouldn't want to see you changing your handle to Lanier/oldschool.

swish

by **Ram** Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:36 am

I see we've moved on to a more entertaining, albeit just as likely to create debate, topic.

I'll also move on from the Cousy vs. Tiny argument as soon as swish puts it down in black and white that Tiny cannot be rated ahead of Cousy on an ALL-TIME CELTICS LIST based on the criteria of years played ON THE CELTICS.

Cool?

by **Ram** Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:47 am

Here's a new wrinkle. How about a "generation" list? With so many stars split over two decades and all this talk lately of "best in his generation (like Kobe vs. Duncan) I like this better than an All-Decade list.

The Silent/Mature Generation are people born between 1926-1945

Baby Boomers are people born between 1946-1965

Generation X are people born between 1966-1981

Generation Y/Millenials are born between 1982-1999

Obviously there are no NBA players born after 1999 (Gen Z/Boomlets) and I'm excluding the GI generation (1901-1924) which means George Mikan is out but Bob Cousy is in;-)

by **Ram** Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:55 am

I'm also rolling with the modern position distinction:

Bigs: PF's or C's they always have rim-protecting abilities and some sort of inside game, although it gets muddy when you talk guys like Olynyk and Sully who played poor D and prefer to shoot J's, but IMO they are both bigs.

Swings: Traditionally big SF's these are guys like Crowder who are comfortable at either forward position on both offense and defense

Wings: Anyone from your scrawny SF to your undersized Avery Bradley guard, these are perimeter players who don't run the offense.

Ball-Handlers: Your point guard

Teams dress 12 per game so we'll go with 12 guys per generation...

by **Ram** Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:03 am

I'm starting off with Generation X, the guys who mostly have just retired in the last few years or are almost there:

Bigs: Duncan, Shaq, KG
Swings: Dirk, Webber
Wings: Kobe, Allen, Pierce, McGrady
Ball-Handlers: Kidd, Iverson, Nash

Debatable: Pau Gasol over Webber? McGrady, Manu, Vince Carter and Grant Hill are all kind of bunched in there for me as well. I think Hill would have been the best but his injuries make it impossible to choose him. TMac has the talent and stats, Manu the rings and longevity and Vince a combo of stats/longevity, but no ring.

by **Ram** Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:31 am

The Baby Boomer Generation is the largest population wise and thus the hardest to narrow down to 12 guys. They are actually broken into two groups. The "save the world" revolutionaries generally born between 1946-1955 and the party hard career-climbers typically born between 1956-1966. So I'll break this group in two. Early Boomers for NBA player whose careers were 70's/early 80's and later boomers for the mid-80's/90's crew.

Early Boomers:

Bigs: Kareem, Moses, Cowens, Unseld
Swings: Hayes (11/45), Dr. J, McAdoo
Wings: Gervin, Monroe
Ball-Handlers: Tiny, Maravich, Frazier

Monroe and McAdoo last ones in over Artis Gilmore an Bob Lanier

Later Boomers:

Bigs: Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson
Swings: Bird, Barkley, Malone
Wings: Jordan, Miller, Pippen
Ball-Handlers: Magic, Stockton, Thomas

Tough cuts: McHale, Wilkins, Drexler

by **Ram** Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:46 am

Millennials:

Bigs: Dwight, Bosh, Horford
Swings: LeBron, Durant, Melo, Blake
Wings: Wade, Harden,
Ball-Handlers: Chris Paul, Curry, Westbrook

Tough list here with a few guys who will likely be knocked off in the 5 years. I'm going to guess (hope) Klay Thompson has a better career than Harden. We know someone will establish themselves in the next 3 years to knock him off like Wiggins or Giannis. The Brow, Kark Anthony-Towns and maybe Cousins should replace Blake, Horford, Bosh and maybe even Dwight, with older guys like Marc Gasol and DeAndre Jordan and as of yet undrafted guys like Giles possibilities to be bigs on this list as well.

Melo could be a swing or a wing, same with LeBron. Blake could be a swing or a big. Simmons, Kawhi and Paul George are all guys whose bodies of work or hype suggest they should displace Melo or Blake.

I don't see any current kids born between '92-'97 really displacing any of the ball-handlers on this list. Kyrie?

by **Ram** Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:54 am

Silent/Mature Generation:

Bigs: Russ, Wilt, Reed
Swings: Pettit, Barry, Lucas
Wings: West, Baylor, Havlicek, Jones
Ball-Handlers: Oscar, Cousy

Tough cuts: Schayes, Billy Cunningham, Goodrich, Lenny Wilkins

by **Ram** Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:31 am

9 Celtics

- I consider Tiny and KG 1/2 Celtics even though they were much better Bucks and Wolves, they were each here at least 5 years and won a ring as an all-star starter. Horford will be bumped before he puts in enough time to be a Celtic as much as he is a Hawk. DeAndre might already be ahead of him actually.

7 Lakers

- I consider Shaq and Wilt to be Lakers, obviously Dwight, McAdoo, Nash and Malone are not Lakers. Sub Gasol in for Webber and it is 8 Lakers.

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