Retired Numbers

I read an article just after the Horford signing where the author stated no current member of the Celtics would be in line to have their number retired. Sorry but I can't find it right now. 

Does everyone agree with that?

There are only two Celtics without championships whose numbers were retired. Reggie Lewis (we all understand why) and Ed Macauley. Both were in green for 6 seasons. Maccauley was a product of a different era, but 4 All-NBA 1st and 2nd teams, 6 all-star teams, being the guy traded for Russell AND being in the HOF give him enough cred to be up there. 

Two guys that just barely got in (in my opinion) were DJ and Max. They spent 7-8 seasons in green and won 2 titles (DJ and Max). I think KG will make it up there with 6 seasons and 1 title. I don't think Ray with 5 seasons and his jumping ship to Miami will get his # retired. Ainge with 7.5 seasons and 2 titles as a player and being an exec for 14 seasons now and the architect of the '08 team really deserves to have #44 up there. 


Can you see any current Celtic players having their numbers retired if this team accomplishes the ultimate goal Danny is building towards and wins a title in the next 3-4 years with this current core?

Three current guys come to my mind who could end up in the rafters one. This is assuming two things:

1. The C's win a title with this current core. 

2. The 3 guys I have chosen sign extensions with the Celtics

Avery Bradley

The longest tenured current Celtic (7th season) he has one season left after this on his current deal and will be a FA entering just his age 28 season. Assuming Ainge adds the one missing piece this team needs BEFORE Avery (and IT) hit free agency, we know from comments by DA and Wyc that they will pay these guys market value extensions and pay A LOT in lux tax costs to do so. 

Avery is still improving. He should max out his talent this year with slightly better ball-handling/passing, near 40% shooting from 3 and that veteran savvy/leadership we started to see him acquire the last 2 seasons. Say he plays All-NBA defense through his age 31 season (8 appearances on 1st/2nd team in 10 years) and makes 1 all-star game (all DJ ever made in Boston) he should be getting his number retired after a minimum of 12 seasons here and even with career averages of just 12-14ppg, 2.5-3.5 rebs and assts per game and 1+ spg. 

Avery is one of the few guys who could play his entire career here of like 15-17 seasons, retire at 'only' 35-36 years old and perhaps have his number in the rafters even if (knock on wood) he doesn't win a title. 

Al Horford


Horford is already 30 in year 1 of his huge 4 year FA deal. Yet that is still a year younger than KG was when he arrived and I think KG's 6 seasons and 1 title are going to be enough to get him in the rafters. Al will be seen as the guy who changed the culture (big FA's not coming here) and made the C's a title contender. 

In addition to winning that elusive title, he'll probably need to opt-out of the 4th year of his deal at 30m and sign a max length 5 year extension. This will give the C's lux tax relief in the present and Horford a deal in the 5/100 range through his age 37 season that would allow him to retire a Celtic after 8 full seasons. Or maybe opt-out for like a 3/75 deal then later sign for 3/45 (like a 36 yr old KG did) and play 9 seasons here. Keeping like 14ppg and 6rpg averages during those 8 years while making 2-3 All-NBA teams, 3-5 all-star teams and doing all the little leadership, passing and rim-protecting stuff that makes this offense flow will be big keys as well. 

He's only played about 22,000 career minutes, including the playoffs. LeBron is just 18 months older than Al but has already played 47,000 career minutes, not including his 3 Olympics. WOW!

Isaiah Thomas


It will be MUCH harder to see him remain effective after age 30 the way it is to see Horford do so. He'll also have only played 4.5 seasons here when he turns 30 (2/7/2019) when a guy like Avery will be in his TENTH season in green when he turns 30 on 11/20/2020. 

However, if he signs a 5 year extension summer of 2018, plays it out (8.5 seasons here) and wins a title he will no doubt have been instrumental in recruiting guys like Horford, creating a winning culture/contending team and will likely make 3-4 all-star teams during his time here and be at least the 2nd/3rd leading scorer on the team that wins banner #18. 

Honorable Mention: Jae Crowder


If he stays another 4-5 years after his insanely cheap 5/35 deal is up summer of 2019 he will have played 9.5-10.5 seasons here. I see him and Avery as the 2 guys most likely to go to the bench in favor of that elusive last big piece needed to get #18. Or even for Jaylen Brown if he develops into an all-star and isn't traded. Being benched for Brown as early as next season will make signing him at age 29 to a 20m+ per year deal pretty challenging, so for that reason alone I think it will be hard to keep him here more than 5 years. 

But if he were to finish his career in green and slightly improve on his breakout season of a year ago for the rest of his current contract I could see him definitely having a career like Frank Ramsey and Don Nelson as far as his toughness, leadership, clutch shots and total impact, even if he is a 6th-7th man for more than 1/2 his time here. He won't have the total # of titles each of them had, but he'd deserve a place in the rafters.

PP yes, of course
RA no of course not
KG mebbe but I'm inclined to say no. Not enuf time not enuf banners raised He ended up back with the twolves if he goes into the HOF as one then definitely no

Current Celtics None No banners not enuf time with team that starts to change once #18 gets raised but let's not water down what it takes to achieve immortality in Boston. This ain't NYC, or LA

Current C's?  My guess is none, but impossible to say. If we build a contender, maybe.

I'll agree with mulcogi that Pierce absolutely, without question, gets to put 34 in the rafters.

KG and Ray?  I personally say neither, but you couldn't retire one without the other.  If you retire 5, you retire 20.

A few thoughts on the above 2 responses:

1. I said IF guys on this current roster win a ring AND sign extensions, who would you see having their number retired. So I guess there is pretty much a lot of pessimism here in regards to whether we can extend our current core and win a title in the next 3-5 years, which is sad to hear. 

2. You absolutely can put KG's number up there and not Ray's. Ainge played 1/2 a season longer than DJ and won the same # of titles and 1/2 a season less than Max and the same number of titles and his # is not retired. The extra year KG played here, the fact that he didn't want to leave and didn't go sign with a team like Miami and the fact that he was WAY, WAY better in 2008 than Ray all give him the edge. Don't you look at KG's 6 years here and say he made the same impact as Max and DJ did in 7-8 years here? The C's were contenders in 6 of Max's 8 yrs and 5 of DJ's 7. They were contenders in 7 of Ainge's 7.5 and he didn't make the cut. The C's were contenders in 5 of KG's 6 years and had a 2nd title stolen from them in a highway robbery game 7. 

3. Let's go back to KG being way better than Ray in 2008. You can probably replace Ray on that roster with like 20 guys in the NBA that year and still win a title. Guys like Kevin Martin, Jason Terry and Ben Gordon could have played 3rd fiddle 17ppg outside shooter guy and the C's would have hung #17. Ray actually struggled for long stretches that season and historically struggled in the first two rounds of the playoffs that went 7 games and never should have. Duncan is the only guy who you could have replaced KG with in 2008 and likely still won that championship.

Ram,

No pessimism over the state of the team, just no players showing they're worthy of having numbers retired at this point, in my opinion. That's not a negative view; I'd love to see Boston win a title with a team of guys that can't get a jersey in the rafters.

I say no KG without Ray because because I think Ray's shooting and overall play was necessary to win the title.  Others may or may not have been capable of filling that role, but he was the guy that was here.  Ray played defense at a much higher level than ever in the title run too, which sometimes gets overlooked. He also helped keep the team in the hunt when KG was injured.

It was a "Big Three" that turned the team into champions for a season, and Ray Allen was one of the three.  I think in time any whining over his departure will also cease to be a factor.

As I said, however, I think neither KG nor Ray belong in the rafters.  Let the T-Wolves, Sonics/Thunder and HOF do the honors.

Regards

NYCelt wrote:Ram,

No pessimism over the state of the team, just no players showing they're worthy of having numbers retired at this point, in my opinion.  That's not a negative view; I'd love to see Boston win a title with a team of guys that can't get a jersey in the rafters.

I say no KG without Ray because because I think Ray's shooting and overall play was necessary to win the title.  Others may or may not have been capable of filling that role, but he was the guy that was here.  Ray played defense at a much higher level than ever in the title run too, which sometimes gets overlooked. He also helped keep the team in the hunt when KG was injured.

It was a "Big Three" that turned the team into champions for a season, and Ray Allen was one of the three.  I think in time any whining over his departure will also cease to be a factor.

As I said, however, I think neither KG nor Ray belong in the rafters.  Let the T-Wolves, Sonics/Thunder and HOF do the honors.

Regards

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. If you're not pessimistic about a title run in this teams future and think that the 3 guys I mentioned above will sign extensions here, then at some point you'd have to start talking rafters if they all spend 8+ years here ,win #18 and have 4-5 years all-star level seasons like they have had recently. 

As for Ray, I understand how many people really respect his time here and feel like you can't reward KG without rewarding him as well, but I really see a big gap in their impact. I look at the history of Ainge, DJ and Max as the precedent for this. 7.5 years, 7 years and 8 years. All won two titles. Are you really telling me that there was enough of a gap between their performances here and impact on those two titles that two of them deserve to have numbers retired and one does not?

I definitely think KG had a WAY bigger impact in 2008 than Ray did, spent an extra season here, didn't jump ship to a rival and was at least as much better a player than Ray as DJ and Max were better players than Ainge.

Only PP as of now. He is a Celtic and no doubt earned it. The rest that are mentioned I would say no.

Do the people who don't think KG's # should be retired also not feel Max, DJ and Ed Maccauley should have their numbers up there?

Way too soon to say imo.

dboss wrote:KG and RA...No

dboss

Ray no, but you really think Easy Ed, Max and DJ were better players here over their 6-8 years than KG was over his 6? Enough of a gap to keep the #1 reason we raised a banner after a horrible 22 year drought out of the rafters?

they can put Ray Allens Jersey up the same night they hang one for Rick Pitino.

but going back to the first question.

Its really impossible to say, we could still put together a deal with parts + that plethora of remaining future firsts that gets most of this current team a few titles. I think that could put several guys into the future consideration category. Bradley at this time would be the most deserving, but others could fit into that as well, we really don't know what sort of career Smart and Brown will have. Could be that Boston has a San Antonio like run with a really great core and wins a few. We will just have to see.

KG? how many other players in the history of the league have exemplified what being a Celtic is all about? Heck KG showed loyalty to the Celtics in helping them out by agreeing to be traded away. Slit that mans throat and I bet it still bleeds green. Give PP his night to enjoy his glory, but the next home game, stick up #5 as well.

Matty wrote:they can put Ray Allens Jersey up the same night they hang one for Rick Pitino.

but going back to the first question.

Its really impossible to say, we could still put together a deal with parts + that plethora of remaining future firsts that gets most of this current team a few titles.  I think that could put several guys into the future consideration category. Bradley at this time would be the most deserving, but others could fit into that as well, we really don't know what sort of career Smart and Brown will have. Could be that Boston has a San Antonio like run with a really great core and wins a few. We will just have to see.

KG?  how many other players in the history of the league have exemplified what being a Celtic is all about? Heck KG showed loyalty to the Celtics in helping them out by agreeing to be traded away. Slit that mans throat and I bet it still bleeds green. Give PP his night to enjoy his glory, but the next home game, stick up #5 as well.

BAM! Now that is what I'm talking about! A+ response Matty!

For what it is worth Dennis Johnson played 7 seasons in green. This is Avery's 7th season. 

Johnson made one all-star team. Avery could make his first this season if he keeps up his early season play. 

Johnson was a 12.5 point, 3.1 rebound, 6.5 assist, 1.2 steal guy who shot 44.5% from the field, 79.7% from the FT line and an atrocious 17.2% from 3. 

Avery is a career 11.6 point, 2.6 reb, 1.6 assist, 1.1 steal guy who shot 47.1% from the field, 77.9% from the FT line and 36.5% from 3. Throw out his first 3 seasons, when he was the age DJ was still college, and he's been a 15ppg 2apg guy shooting 38% from 3.

We all know Dennis was Larry's favorite teammate, super clutch and tasked with defending guys like Magic and Zeke. He also made three 2nd team All-D teams and one 1st team in those 7 years. He was never considered more than the Celtics 4th best player during his time in green but did win two titles and play on 5 truly great teams. 

Avery doesn't match DJ's passing, but is a shooting guard and DJ can't match his shooting. He's been All-D 2nd team once and 1st team once and we can believe before his contract is done after next season he'll have at least matched Johnson there. Plus his passing is greatly improved this season as he actively looks to get others involved as well as score more and play his typical lockdown D. He's played on two good team (2013, 2016) and one very good team (2012) and has been a bridge between era's, but he obviously has yet to play on any great teams like DJ did.

Oh and Avery doesn't turn 26 for a few more weeks. 

If he signs an extension here to put in at least 12 seasons in green and he plays as good as he is now for the last five of them (will only be 31 after 12 years here, same age KG was when he arrived in '07) then even w/o a title (knock on wood) he could see his number go up there.

Hey Ram I enjoy your posts, you definitely have mad knowledge on the game, you back up your points with real facts, not all the analytic bullshit. I feel traitors should not have their numbers retired and as great as Ray was, that ugly ending shifted all the power to the hated Heat.....still pisses me off the no call on Rondo getting hacked in the face vs Heat in 12 and Rondo getting his arm dislocated by Dwayne Wade in 11. Butt back to Ray, no way Heat win 2 titles without him and 13 we could have still really used his 3 point game off the bench, he did the role, coming off the bench perfect, but wouldn't do it here. His leaving was as pussyfooted as Durant this year IMHO.

So no way would I want to see Ray get a retired number up there, but Pierce is a given, he was the captain and could put up 35-38 on a given night against any great wing. That era was pretty incredible as Pierce vs Kobe, Vince, McGrady and later Lebron and Melo were some great match ups. He was clutch and tough as nails, I was shocked when during year 3 or 4 of the KG era my son showed me some stat site that rated Pierce the best clutch performer in the league during the last 5 years....and agree that KG is a once a generation player like a Duncan, a Hakeem or a Shaq that he has to get his number retired because of the way he transformed the whole franchise. That was an epic run, with a little health/luck we could have won 3 or 4 tiltles with that team.

cowens/oldschool wrote:Hey Ram I enjoy your posts, you definitely have mad knowledge on the game, you back up your points with real facts, not all the analytic bullshit. I feel traitors should not have their numbers retired and as great as Ray was, that ugly ending shifted all the power to the hated Heat.....still pisses me off the no call on Rondo getting hacked in the face vs Heat in 12 and Rondo getting his arm dislocated by Dwayne Wade in 11. Butt back to Ray, no way Heat win 2 titles without him and 13 we could have still really used his 3 point game off the bench, he did the role, coming off the bench perfect, but wouldn't do it here. His leaving was as pussyfooted as Durant this year IMHO.

So no way would I want to see Ray get a retired number up there, but Pierce is a given, he was the captain and could put up 35-38 on a given night against any great wing. That era was pretty incredible as Pierce vs Kobe, Vince, McGrady and later Lebron and Melo were some great match ups. He was clutch and tough as nails, I was shocked when during year 3 or 4 of the KG era my son showed me some stat site that rated Pierce the best clutch performer in the league during the last 5 years....and agree that KG is a once a generation player like a Duncan, a Hakeem or a Shaq that he has to get his number retired because of the way he transformed the whole franchise. That was an epic run, with a little health/luck we could have won 3 or 4 tiltles with that team.

Thanks man, I enjoy your posts a lot as well. 

Definitely left a lot on the table the '08-'13 years and I totally agree with you about Ray. 

The things that bug me the most from that era in chronological order. 


What if...

... Doc and Danny draft DeAndre Jordan over JR Giddens in '08 and sign Matt Barnes (the type of player Giddens was supposed to be) with 1/2 the MLE $ they had that year instead of signing Patrick O'Bryant and drafting Giddens?

... KG had surgery on his leg injury right away Feb of '09 instead of leading the team on that it could heal on its own by the playoffs, rushing him out there for 4 ugly looking 16-17 min stints in games at the end of March just 5-6 weeks later and then shutting him down for the season? It was a 10-12 week surgery he underwent anyhow. He may have been ready for the Orlando series. If not, but the team had Barnes instead of Giddens and DeAndre's 6 fouls to use on Dwight I think the C's get by the Magic, lose to LeBron in the ECF and the world gets to see the Kobe vs. LeBron finals it was denied all those years (still think LA would win and The Decision still happens)

... The 2009 MLE was used on Ariza for 5 years (when LA chose Artest) instead of Sheed and the mini-MLE (used on Marquis Daniels) was used on Antonio McDyess instead? Swap out those guys 2 for 2 and add in a healthier KG and 2010 would almost certainly have resulted in a wire to wire title run instead of 'should DA break them up?' The 4 seed and running out of gas in June (along with the ref robbery). 

... nothing I said above happened, but Artest never gave Ray the dirty as F charley horse early in game 3 that made him go cold at home in the 2010 Finals? Does it get back to LA or does Ray stay hot win Finals MVP, feel the love, sign a more modest 4/30 extension (instead of a 2/20 one), and end up in the rafters?

... game 7 was officiated fairly?

... Danny held strong and demanded Harden over Jeff Green, the initial deal, when making the Perk trade with OKC in '11? My original hope was that he'd have traded best buds Rondo and Perk, along with a S&T of Tony Allen to OKC the summer of 2010 after winning the title for Westbrook and Krstic. But the Perk injury ruined that. OKC with Rondo-Harden-Durant-Ibaka-Perk and Green as the 6th man (post heart surgery) would have been a fun club and probably met the C's in 1-2 finals btwn '11-'13. 

And Finally

... David West did not nix the trade to come here in 2012 and decide to go to Indiana instead (How many titles do you have by now David?). Rondo-Ray-Pierce-West-KG in the 2012 ECF (and no arm dislocations) would have been real interesting. 

Ah well. 3 titles was not to be. We have to be satisfied with one. But man, all those things mentioned above were either bad breaks, legit close to happening or could have been pulled off financially/through the draft if the team just had a little more foresight.

thought about DeAndre Jordan many times and he would have progressed so much faster and better under the tutelage of KG, would have been an incredible big man rotation with Jordan joining KG and Perk, all the alley opps Rondo would be feeding to DJ.....would have been sick!!

in 10 not only was game 7 stolen from us, so was game 3 which I was at live, pics of that game are all over my FB....it was a travesty, Artest was pounding Pierce right in the back, when Pierce pushed to just get Artests elbow and forearm off him, they called a fockin foul on Pierce....???? bottomline Stern wanted a 7 game series.

also a big blunder by Danny was not giving alittle more money to Tony Allen, who is still on a cheap contract, we lost alot of defensive shutdown ability when we lost him, which led to the Perk trade, trying to acquire a versatile swingman.....unfortunately Jeff Green has been a big disappointment/tease at every stop.

I feel it is too early to even think about THIS Celtic team producing players who would have their number retired. I do think the criteria for raising numbers to the rafters has tightened a bit.

Paul Pierce, undoubtably will get his number raised, why else would he say he is going to retire a Celtic at the end of this year? KG, I am torn, I love the guy, he changed the entire culture of this team when he came here and we all became totally taken with his game and his loyalty. Ray?
I say there is no way his number gets retired. He left, which was his right to do, but never stopped taking pot shots at the Celtics for a year. Everytime he was interviewed he brought the Celtics up, saying how hurt he was that he was not contacted before KG in the hours right after free agency. He then continued on with his issues with Rondo, and others like Bradley. Sour grapes.

I will never say he did not help up, hell, he was one of the reasons the Celtics won the title. I loved the guy, but to put 20 in the rafters lessens the quality of they guys they have up there. So I say no, no number 20. 34, 5, yes.

RosalieTCeltics wrote:I feel it is too early to even think about THIS  Celtic team producing players who would have their number retired. I do think the criteria for raising numbers to the rafters has tightened a bit.  

Paul Pierce, undoubtably will get his number raised, why else would he say he is going to retire a Celtic at the end of this year? KG, I am torn, I love the guy, he changed the entire culture of this team when he came here and we all became totally taken with his game and his loyalty.  Ray?
I say there is no way his number gets retired. He left, which was his right to do, but never stopped taking pot shots at the Celtics for a year.  Everytime he was interviewed he brought the Celtics up, saying how hurt he was that he was not contacted before KG in the hours right after free agency. He then continued on with his issues with Rondo, and others like Bradley.  Sour grapes.  

I will never say he did not help up, hell, he was one of the reasons the Celtics won the title. I loved the guy, but to put 20 in the rafters lessens the quality of they guys they have up there.   So I say no, no number 20. 34, 5, yes.

If any 20 goes up it should be for Siggy !!

No to RA

beat

my opinion also, and it was definitely Sam's

Siegfried, Silas, Ainge and Allen will probably go down as the close but not cigar group of guys when it comes to retired numbers. Ainge has the best case of the 4 in my opinion. 

KG's time here was just as impactful in 5 of his 6 seasons as Silas was for his 4, and more impactful for 2007-08 than any one season any of those guys put together and more impactful even than any one season DJ or Maxwell put together, even Max's '81 Finals MVP, which is the main reason his # went up there.

It was always surprising to me that Red gave in and they retired Maxwell's number. There were some real hard feelings when Max got traded, but it seemed like a decision that did not disrupt the team at all. Of course, they got Walton, which made the epic 1986 season. Max has admitted to hard feelings that he still carries about that trade. For those of you who were around at that time, Red was furious because he felt Max did not work hard enough to get himself back from his injury and that led to the trade.

My point is, there are numbers up there that are questionable, and I really feel they are going to be a little more meticulous about picking and choosing who gets up there. They will look long and hard before they consider retiring #20, there are still some hard feelings out there. Too bad Ray, you could have been a king around here right now, with a job representing the Celts. But then again, maybe you don't give a damn about that.

I never thought Maxwell should have gotten his number retired, was an okay player, his game looked alot better because of all the talent he played with. What did Max ever do before Bird arrived? he couldn't come near close to carrying a team, had a decent post up game, not a good ball handler, no mid range game or outside shot, really didn't excel at anything.

I don't know how anyone can feel KG does not deserve to have his number retired...???

KG exemplified whatever tangible and intangible quality there is in being a Celtic, was as intense as Cowens, his defense when he was here was at a Bill Russell level for that era. Even after Perk left, on his own he was still great and able to carry us defensively whenever he was on the floor, was intense and lasted a long time to the franchise's betterment. He was much more important to the team then Ray, if KG was out or Ray was out which is the bigger loss? Ray was inconsistent, like most 3 point shooters he had hot and cold streaks, he had to play off Pierce and KG, he couldn't really create his own shot. Compared to Pierce and KG, his game was limited....and ultimately he was thin skinned and a traitor.