Celtics grab No. 1 pick, and oh what a summer it could be in Boston

Fierce, I don't get this guy's math, at all. By my count, if we waive  Jackson, Mickey, Zeller, Green, Johnson, and Young AND resign Kelly O for $15M and Jerebko for $10M (both generous) we have a total salary of about $96M. We can go over the cap until $138M. How is it we don't have money to sign Hayward at $30M while still keeping Jae and Avery through 2017-18?

OK. Let Avery and Jerebko go. Then we are at $78M plus $30M for Hayward and we're at $108M, barely over the $102M cap but below the $138M cap ceiling.

I don't get the writer's math at all.

worcester wrote:Fierce, I don't get this guy's math, at all. By my count, if we waive  Jackson, Mickey, Zeller, Green, Johnson, and Young AND resign Kelly O for $15M and Jerebko for $10M (both generous) we have a total salary of about $96M. We can go over the cap until $138M. How is it we don't have money to sign Hayward at $30M while still keeping Jae and Avery through 2017-18?

OK. Let Avery and Jerebko go. Then we are at $78M plus $30M for Hayward and we're at $108M, barely over the $102M cap but below the $138M cap ceiling.

I don't get the writer's math at all.

Reason for that is you have to be NOT over the cap after signing Hayward.
When the Celts sign Hayward, the Celts must be at 102m or lower.

According to cap rules, you can go over the cap to sign your own players, but you have to be under the cap or not above the cap when signing free-agents not your own.

That means the Celts must make room for Hayward then Celts can go over the cap to sign their own free-agents.

I believe the cap rules for signing a player like Hayward is that you have to fit him under the cap with all salarys and CAP HOLDS in place.

so even if Danny waits to resign Kelly & Jerebko (in this scenario) then the cap holds for both would still be on the cap. I am not sure what the holds are for each

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2704121-breaking-down-every-nba-teams-salary-cap-situation-ahead-of-2017-offseason

this article says Kellys hold is $7.7M and Jerebkos is $9.5M.

so based on that article, if Danny Renounces Amir and Young's holds and doesn't pick up Zeller's non-guaranteed year. the team will be at about $77M in cap space. This counts the rookie draft pick.

Yabusle and Zizic may also be holds on the cap, though both would probably be around $3M total.

leaving about $25M for an outside FA signing. Not enough for a max deal for anyone I am afraid. to get there you have to renounce Jerebko (or sign him cheaper than $9.5M) FIRST before signing an outside player.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q38

I would note based on this, the cap holds in the first article seem to be off, especially for Amir and Jerebko. They say at one point renouncing both would clear $15.5M, then later say Jerebko's hold alone is $9.5M. Both cannot be true. I think Amir;s hold is at least $14.4M alone.

also I have seen our total cap at over $109M with all holds at other websites not the $85M from Bleacher report.

point being it will be hard for Danny to outright sign a max (or near max) Free agent this off-season.

kdp59 wrote:I believe the cap rules for signing a player like Hayward is that you have to fit him under the cap with all salarys and CAP HOLDS in place.

so even if Danny waits to resign Kelly & Jerebko (in this scenario) then the cap holds for both would still be on the cap. I am not sure what the holds are for each

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2704121-breaking-down-every-nba-teams-salary-cap-situation-ahead-of-2017-offseason

this article says Kellys hold is $7.7M and Jerebkos is $9.5M.

so based on that article, if Danny Renounces Amir and Young's holds and doesn't pick up Zeller's non-guaranteed year. the team will be at about $77M in cap space. This counts the rookie draft pick.

Yabusle and Zizic may also be holds on the cap, though both would probably be around $3M total.

leaving about $25M for an outside FA signing. Not enough for a max deal for anyone I am afraid. to get there you have to renounce Jerebko (or sign him cheaper than $9.5M) FIRST before signing an outside player.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q38

I would note based on this, the cap holds in the first article seem to be off, especially for Amir and Jerebko. They say at one point renouncing both would clear $15.5M, then later say Jerebko's hold alone is $9.5M. Both cannot be true. I think Amir;s hold is at least $14.4M alone.

also I have seen our total cap at over $109M with all holds at other websites not the $85M from Bleacher report.

point being it will be hard for Danny to outright sign a max (or near max) Free agent this off-season.

That's why Ainge must trade Crowder or Bradley or both.

If the Celts are going to get Hayward then Crowder will be redundant.

Having Fultz also means Bradley is expendable.

here is a website I found before that shows all cap holds.....enjoy!

http://www.spotrac.com/nba/boston-celtics/cap/2017/

$109M with all holds.

key players likely gone (or resigned at cheaper than their holds):

Amir- $15.6M hold
Jerebko- $9.5M hold
Zeller- $8M non guaranteed
Young- $2.8M hold
Green- $1.4M hold

renouncing all five players gets us to $28M UNDER the cap. Perhaps enough to sign a player like Hayward after all.

I would note that Yabusele and Zizic have no holds listed even here.

so , Danny CAN get the space needed to sign a near max FA and re-sign Kelly after to a market deal (meaning over his hold).

it would be very hard to also resign Jerebko however, as was talked about in this thread.

doing this would be replacing the 5 players above with

Hayward or other near max FA
Fultz or other top draft pick
Yabusele
Zizic
Nader or second round pick.

I hope this all clarifies things somewhat.

I would suggest all the armchair GM's (like me) save this website for all the off-season scenarios we like to play out.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/boston-celtics-team-salary/

Horford - 27.73m
Bradley - 8.8m
Thomas - 6.26m
Crowder - 6.8m
Brown - 4.96m
Smart - 4.54m
Rozier - 1.99m
Fultz - 5m

Total - 66.08m

I didn't include Zizic yet.

Celts have cap room but keeping Olynyk will be a challenge.
It's easier if the Celts trade Bradley or Crowder or both.

fierce wrote:

kdp59 wrote:I believe the cap rules for signing a player like Hayward is that you have to fit him under the cap with all salarys and CAP HOLDS in place.

so even if Danny waits to resign Kelly & Jerebko (in this scenario) then the cap holds for both would still be on the cap. I am not sure what the holds are for each

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2704121-breaking-down-every-nba-teams-salary-cap-situation-ahead-of-2017-offseason

this article says Kellys hold is $7.7M and Jerebkos is $9.5M.

so based on that article, if Danny Renounces Amir and Young's holds and doesn't pick up Zeller's non-guaranteed year. the team will be at about $77M in cap space. This counts the rookie draft pick.

Yabusle and Zizic may also be holds on the cap, though both would probably be around $3M total.

leaving about $25M for an outside FA signing. Not enough for a max deal for anyone I am afraid. to get there you have to renounce Jerebko (or sign him cheaper than $9.5M) FIRST before signing an outside player.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q38

I would note based on this, the cap holds in the first article seem to be off, especially for Amir and Jerebko. They say at one point renouncing both would clear $15.5M, then later say Jerebko's hold alone is $9.5M. Both cannot be true. I think Amir;s hold is at least $14.4M alone.

also I have seen our total cap at over $109M with all holds at other websites not the $85M from Bleacher report.

point being it will be hard for Danny to outright sign a max (or near max) Free agent this off-season.

That's why Ainge must trade Crowder or Bradley or both.

If the Celts are going to get Hayward then Crowder will be redundant.

Having Fultz also means Bradley is expendable.

Fierce, I think you and I can put next years team together...

1) we clear the cap space for Hayward's near max deal, by renouncing Amir, Jerebko,Young, Green and not guaranteeing Zeller's $8M.

2) we draft Fultz

3) we trade Crowder and Bradley to Dallas for Noel in a sign and trade deal.

4) we sign Yabusle and Zizic to rookie deals.

5) we resign Kelly to a market deal

roster:

Horford
Noel
Zizic
Kelly
Yabusle
Mickey or second round pick
Hayward
Jaylen
Nader
IT
Smart
Fultz
Rozier
D. Jackson
final spot goes to a minimum salary FA sharpshooter type not named Green or young who we renounced.

I think we make a good team...call Danny.

kdp59

I don't think Dallas would give up Noel.

Other than that, we're good.

fierce wrote:kdp59

I don't think Dallas would give up Noel.

Other than that, we're good.

I dunno, Crowder and Bradley (who played at Texas) is a lot and Dallas needs NBA players. A two for one might get it done even with Bradley expiring.


that team would also end up somewhere around $108M in salary assuming Kelly re-ups in the $13M range and Noels new deal starts at $15M.

kdp59 wrote:

fierce wrote:kdp59

I don't think Dallas would give up Noel.

Other than that, we're good.

I dunno, Crowder and Bradley (who played at Texas) is a lot and Dallas needs NBA players. A two for one might get it done even with Bradley expiring.


that team would also end up somewhere around $108M in salary assuming Kelly re-ups in the $13M range and Noels new deal starts at $15M.

Don't get me wrong, that trade is good for the Celts, but Noel is the only Center the Mavs have right now.

Besides, the Mavs just gave SF Harrison Barnes 94m and SG Wes Matthews 64m.
I think the Center position is more of a priority for the Mavs right now.

There are a lot of options to consider.

When DA acquired Crowder as part of the Rondo trade I think he only saw Crowder as a seat warmer.  To Crowder's credit he has turned into a solid SF at both ends of the court.  He became part of our defensive trifecta made up of AB and MS.  Crowder's position flexibility has permitted Brad to use him in small ball lineups at the PF spot.  He has also provided great value that provides long term CAP flexibility.

Lastly, Crowder is a tough guy that brings a physical element to the team that cannot be overlooked. Despite the contributions from Crowder his limitations are apparent.  He has very limited ball handling skills and he is not fast enough to get up and down the court.

Enter the 2015 draft and Danny's desparate attempt to secure the draft rights to Winslow, the SF out of Duke.  He was so freakin hot to strengthen the SF spot that he was willing to part with significant assets.  Thank goodness his attempts were unsuccessful.  However DA was still undeterred in his pursuit of adding a SF.

In the 2016 draft he selected Brown.  As a rookie Brown has shown flashes of talent at both ends of the court and has contributed during the post season to the success of this team.

Did Danny make a wise choice in drafting Brown?  Can we project Brown into the starting lineup at SF in another year? I think the answer is yes and yes.  For the next 3 years the Celtics will be paying out $12-$15 million for their small forwards.

Enter the Heywood option.  He very likely will opt out of his $16 million contract and sign a max contract that will be at least in the $25 million range.  Heywood is an excellent offensive player.  However he lacks the physical element to bang with James and the athleticism to check a Leonard or any of the remarkable small forwards in the NBA.  

Weighing all sides it would not move the dial at both ends of the court the way a player like PG13 would.   It comes down to a question of need vs cost.  If we did not draft Jaylen going after Heywood would be more logical.  And no I do not see Jaylen as a shooting guard.

Which brings us to the obvious need to move key players.  This is very contingent on who is drafted.  First I do not believe that the pick will be traded because the talent level should provide an immediate return on investment.  Fultz is the likely pick.  He is a PG first but he can also play off the ball.  But he is a natural play making PG with high end scoring ability.  Of all of the positions on the Celtics PG is the one that is overstocked.  We have IT, MS, TR and DJ.  We only have one pure shooting guard on this team in AB.  The Celtics tried in vain to turn AB into a PG but the record clearly shows that AB is a shooting guard and is also the best two way player on the team.

Both IT and AB are eligible for contract extensions this summer.  IT is going to want a huge contract that will be driven by his offensive abilities.  If Boston drafts Fultz, IT is the one that needs to go.  I love IT and everything that he has done for the Celtics but he did not do it by himself.  He remains an exploitable defensive liability and he cannot rebound the basketball.  

Let me summarize my thoughts on this.

I would not compromise our cap space to sign Heywood because SF is not a position of weakness and as a matter of fact, SF play is expected to improve with the maturation of Jaylen Brown.  Crowder provides the the physical and mental toughness that anchors our DNA.

Our cap space must be used to add a big.

Fultz makes IT expendable because he is a PG and we have too many points guards on the team but only one SG in Bradley.

Dboss

OK, keeping it light and having fun with earlier posts in this topic.

Saw this online today.  Coincidental to yesterday's discussion, it gives the real story on Babe Ruth being dealt to The Yankees.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/19444091/agreement-sending-babe-ruth-new-york-yankees-goes-auction

The story is about the agreement going up for auction.

I can debunk the Russell, Ice Capades story even easier, but we can save that one for now.

You guys figure out who we're trading and I'll buy my son whichever new jerseys are needed.  Let me know so I can get a jump on it before they sell out.

dboss wrote:There are a lot of options to consider.

When DA acquired Crowder as part of the Rondo trade I think he only saw Crowder as a seat warmer.  To Crowder's credit he has turned into a solid SF at both ends of the court.  He became part of our defensive trifecta made up of AB and MS.  Crowder's position flexibility has permitted Brad to use him in small ball lineups at the PF spot.  He has also provided great value that provides long term CAP flexibility.

Lastly, Crowder is a tough guy that brings a physical element to the team that cannot be overlooked. Despite the contributions from Crowder his limitations are apparent.  He has very limited ball handling skills and he is not fast enough to get up and down the court.

Enter the 2015 draft and Danny's desparate attempt to secure the draft rights to Winslow, the SF out of Duke.  He was so freakin hot to strengthen the SF spot that he was willing to part with significant assets.  Thank goodness his attempts were unsuccessful.  However DA was still undeterred in his pursuit of adding a SF.

In the 2016 draft he selected Brown.  As a rookie Brown has shown flashes of talent at both ends of the court and has contributed during the post season to the success of this team.

Did Danny make a wise choice in drafting Brown?  Can we project Brown into the starting lineup at SF in another year? I think the answer is yes and yes.  For the next 3 years the Celtics will be paying out $12-$15 million for their small forwards.

Enter the Heywood option.  He very likely will opt out of his $16 million contract and sign a max contract that will be at least in the $25 million range.  Heywood is an excellent offensive player.  However he lacks the physical element to bang with James and the athleticism to check a Leonard or any of the remarkable small forwards in the NBA.  

Weighing all sides it would not move the dial at both ends of the court the way a player like PG13 would.   It comes down to a question of need vs cost.  If we did not draft Jaylen going after Heywood would be more logical.  And no I do not see Jaylen as a shooting guard.

Which brings us to the obvious need to move key players.  This is very contingent on who is drafted.  First I do not believe that the pick will be traded because the talent level should provide an immediate return on investment.  Fultz is the likely pick.  He is a PG first but he can also play off the ball.  But he is a natural play making PG with high end scoring ability.  Of all of the positions on the Celtics PG is the one that is overstocked.  We have IT, MS, TR and DJ.  We only have one pure shooting guard on this team in AB.  The Celtics tried in vain to turn AB into a PG but the record clearly shows that AB is a shooting guard and is also the best two way player on the team.

Both IT and AB are eligible for contract extensions this summer.  IT is going to want a huge contract that will be driven by his offensive abilities.  If Boston drafts Fultz, IT is the one that needs to go.  I love IT and everything that he has done for the Celtics but he did not do it by himself.  He remains an exploitable defensive liability and he cannot rebound the basketball.  

Let me summarize my thoughts on this.

I would not compromise our cap space to sign Heywood because SF is not a position of weakness and as a matter of fact, SF play is expected to improve with the maturation of Jaylen Brown.  Crowder provides the the physical and mental toughness that anchors our DNA.

Our cap space must be used to add a big.

Fultz makes IT expendable because he is a PG and we have too many points guards on the team but only one SG in Bradley.

Dboss

excellent post dboss, even though Jaylen missed some assignments last game, he is our best defender to my eyes on Lebron, Crowder is very tough and physical, there is a place for him, but I don't know if it is as the starting SF on a championship team. Jaylen actually has bothered Lebron and has the ability athletically to compete with any elites at his position, Crowder does not. I think Jaylen does have the ability to work/transform his game/skills to a much higher level and is just getting started. Were in the EC Finals with the top pick in the draft and another lottery pick, I don't think we need Hayward....

Cow

That is certainly one of my main arguments. There is no real need to leverage your cap space regarding your SF position.

dboss

cowens/oldschool wrote:

dboss wrote:There are a lot of options to consider.

When DA acquired Crowder as part of the Rondo trade I think he only saw Crowder as a seat warmer.  To Crowder's credit he has turned into a solid SF at both ends of the court.  He became part of our defensive trifecta made up of AB and MS.  Crowder's position flexibility has permitted Brad to use him in small ball lineups at the PF spot.  He has also provided great value that provides long term CAP flexibility.

Lastly, Crowder is a tough guy that brings a physical element to the team that cannot be overlooked. Despite the contributions from Crowder his limitations are apparent.  He has very limited ball handling skills and he is not fast enough to get up and down the court.

Enter the 2015 draft and Danny's desparate attempt to secure the draft rights to Winslow, the SF out of Duke.  He was so freakin hot to strengthen the SF spot that he was willing to part with significant assets.  Thank goodness his attempts were unsuccessful.  However DA was still undeterred in his pursuit of adding a SF.

In the 2016 draft he selected Brown.  As a rookie Brown has shown flashes of talent at both ends of the court and has contributed during the post season to the success of this team.

Did Danny make a wise choice in drafting Brown?  Can we project Brown into the starting lineup at SF in another year? I think the answer is yes and yes.  For the next 3 years the Celtics will be paying out $12-$15 million for their small forwards.

Enter the Heywood option.  He very likely will opt out of his $16 million contract and sign a max contract that will be at least in the $25 million range.  Heywood is an excellent offensive player.  However he lacks the physical element to bang with James and the athleticism to check a Leonard or any of the remarkable small forwards in the NBA.  

Weighing all sides it would not move the dial at both ends of the court the way a player like PG13 would.   It comes down to a question of need vs cost.  If we did not draft Jaylen going after Heywood would be more logical.  And no I do not see Jaylen as a shooting guard.

Which brings us to the obvious need to move key players.  This is very contingent on who is drafted.  First I do not believe that the pick will be traded because the talent level should provide an immediate return on investment.  Fultz is the likely pick.  He is a PG first but he can also play off the ball.  But he is a natural play making PG with high end scoring ability.  Of all of the positions on the Celtics PG is the one that is overstocked.  We have IT, MS, TR and DJ.  We only have one pure shooting guard on this team in AB.  The Celtics tried in vain to turn AB into a PG but the record clearly shows that AB is a shooting guard and is also the best two way player on the team.

Both IT and AB are eligible for contract extensions this summer.  IT is going to want a huge contract that will be driven by his offensive abilities.  If Boston drafts Fultz, IT is the one that needs to go.  I love IT and everything that he has done for the Celtics but he did not do it by himself.  He remains an exploitable defensive liability and he cannot rebound the basketball.  

Let me summarize my thoughts on this.

I would not compromise our cap space to sign Heywood because SF is not a position of weakness and as a matter of fact, SF play is expected to improve with the maturation of Jaylen Brown.  Crowder provides the the physical and mental toughness that anchors our DNA.

Our cap space must be used to add a big.

Fultz makes IT expendable because he is a PG and we have too many points guards on the team but only one SG in Bradley.

Dboss

excellent post dboss, even though Jaylen missed some assignments last game, he is our best defender to my eyes on Lebron, Crowder is very tough and physical, there is a place for him, but I don't know if it is as the starting SF on a championship team. Jaylen actually has bothered Lebron and has the ability athletically to compete with any elites at his position, Crowder does not. I think Jaylen does have the ability to work/transform his game/skills to a much higher level and is just getting started. Were in the EC Finals with the top pick in the draft and another lottery pick, I don't think we need Hayward....

Hey Cow, How've you been? Haven't seen you on the board or Game On threads for a bit. Hope the kids' graduation @ Purdue went well.


bob


.

bobheckler wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:

dboss wrote:There are a lot of options to consider.

When DA acquired Crowder as part of the Rondo trade I think he only saw Crowder as a seat warmer.  To Crowder's credit he has turned into a solid SF at both ends of the court.  He became part of our defensive trifecta made up of AB and MS.  Crowder's position flexibility has permitted Brad to use him in small ball lineups at the PF spot.  He has also provided great value that provides long term CAP flexibility.

Lastly, Crowder is a tough guy that brings a physical element to the team that cannot be overlooked. Despite the contributions from Crowder his limitations are apparent.  He has very limited ball handling skills and he is not fast enough to get up and down the court.

Enter the 2015 draft and Danny's desparate attempt to secure the draft rights to Winslow, the SF out of Duke.  He was so freakin hot to strengthen the SF spot that he was willing to part with significant assets.  Thank goodness his attempts were unsuccessful.  However DA was still undeterred in his pursuit of adding a SF.

In the 2016 draft he selected Brown.  As a rookie Brown has shown flashes of talent at both ends of the court and has contributed during the post season to the success of this team.

Did Danny make a wise choice in drafting Brown?  Can we project Brown into the starting lineup at SF in another year? I think the answer is yes and yes.  For the next 3 years the Celtics will be paying out $12-$15 million for their small forwards.

Enter the Heywood option.  He very likely will opt out of his $16 million contract and sign a max contract that will be at least in the $25 million range.  Heywood is an excellent offensive player.  However he lacks the physical element to bang with James and the athleticism to check a Leonard or any of the remarkable small forwards in the NBA.  

Weighing all sides it would not move the dial at both ends of the court the way a player like PG13 would.   It comes down to a question of need vs cost.  If we did not draft Jaylen going after Heywood would be more logical.  And no I do not see Jaylen as a shooting guard.

Which brings us to the obvious need to move key players.  This is very contingent on who is drafted.  First I do not believe that the pick will be traded because the talent level should provide an immediate return on investment.  Fultz is the likely pick.  He is a PG first but he can also play off the ball.  But he is a natural play making PG with high end scoring ability.  Of all of the positions on the Celtics PG is the one that is overstocked.  We have IT, MS, TR and DJ.  We only have one pure shooting guard on this team in AB.  The Celtics tried in vain to turn AB into a PG but the record clearly shows that AB is a shooting guard and is also the best two way player on the team.

Both IT and AB are eligible for contract extensions this summer.  IT is going to want a huge contract that will be driven by his offensive abilities.  If Boston drafts Fultz, IT is the one that needs to go.  I love IT and everything that he has done for the Celtics but he did not do it by himself.  He remains an exploitable defensive liability and he cannot rebound the basketball.  

Let me summarize my thoughts on this.

I would not compromise our cap space to sign Heywood because SF is not a position of weakness and as a matter of fact, SF play is expected to improve with the maturation of Jaylen Brown.  Crowder provides the the physical and mental toughness that anchors our DNA.

Our cap space must be used to add a big.

Fultz makes IT expendable because he is a PG and we have too many points guards on the team but only one SG in Bradley.

Dboss

excellent post dboss, even though Jaylen missed some assignments last game, he is our best defender to my eyes on Lebron, Crowder is very tough and physical, there is a place for him, but I don't know if it is as the starting SF on a championship team. Jaylen actually has bothered Lebron and has the ability athletically to compete with any elites at his position, Crowder does not. I think Jaylen does have the ability to work/transform his game/skills to a much higher level and is just getting started. Were in the EC Finals with the top pick in the draft and another lottery pick, I don't think we need Hayward....

Hey Cow,  How've you been?  Haven't seen you on the board or Game On threads for a bit.  Hope the kids' graduation @ Purdue went well.


bob


.

Thanks bob it did

dboss wrote:Cow

That is certainly one of my main arguments.  There is no real need to leverage your cap space regarding your SF position.

dboss

exactly dboss we need money down the road to keep our assets that earned it

bobheckler wrote:

gyso wrote:

steve3344 wrote:From Mike Lupica in the NY Daily News:

I think we can call off the contest line, and declare that the Nets trade for Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett, one that got the Celtics the No. 1 pick this season and gets them another No. 1 next season, is the worst single trade in all of modern sports history.

Maybe from the Nets perspective.  We've had a couple more "best single trades", from our perspective.  The trade that brought Parrish and McHale, which bore fruit for the next decade, comes to mind.  Russell for a circus. There may be more.

This is another time that writers get caught up in the now, forgot the past and ignores the future results.  We do not know how this actually ends up, which goes a long way towards determining worst of all time.

gyso

gyso,

Tommy Heinsohn was the #1 pick in 1956 under a defunct rule called the "Territory Pick"  In order to bolster the popularity of the new NBA teams were allowed first shot at a local star and Tommy went to Holy Cross.  In order to ensure that the Rochester Royals wouldn't use the #2 pick to take Russell Red convinced owner Walter Brown to agree to let the owner of the Rochester Royals, who owned the arena in Rochester, to have a couple of Ice Capades dates in exchange for NOT picking Russell.  The Ice Capades were a big draw back then, Rochester wasn't that big a venue, and Walter Brown was a major owner in the Ice Capades.  The owner of the Royals made a lot of money having the Ice Capades come to Rochester and the NBA, back then, was small potatoes.

So just in the interest of historical accuracy, and I know Sam would have been all over this, Red didn't trade Russell for a circus.  He got the Royals to not draft Russell, clearing the way for Red to do it, by offering a couple of gigs of the Ice Capades.  I think this is an even better steal since a circus at least has lions and tigers and bears, oh my!  And where are the Ice Capades?  Went out of business in 1995.

This is the 2nd time the Nets have been royally screwed.  The first time was when the NY Knicks demanded a huge payment in exchange for waiving their territorial exclusivity clause and allowing the Long Island Nets of the ABA to join the NBA.  The Nets offered Erving to the Knicks in exchange for waiving the payment.  The Knicks turned the deal down, wanting the money instead.  This might be the worst decision in NY Knick history, especially considering DeBusschere, Jerry Lucas and Willis Reed had just retired.  The Nets refused a salary increase they promised Erving and he refused to play.  As a result, in order to raise the money and get something for a player who wasn't playing, the Nets traded their star Dr. Julius Erving to Philadelphia for $3M, the same amount as the Nets' franchise fee.

One could argue the Dr. J fiasco wasn't the Nets' fault.  Their league was folding and it was either join the NBA, relocate to a city without an existing NBA territory or shut down.  None were particularly attractive options.  Billy King, God Bless him, rolled the dice for a team that, on paper, looked truly awesome.

KG
Pierce
Lopez
Deron (when Deron was good)
Joe Johnson
JET
AK47
Shaun Livingstone (now of GSW)
Blatchke
CJ Watson
Reggie Evans


bob


.

if Lopez didn't get hurt that team could compete with anyone for that year, they beat Heat a few times before Lopez's injury. Even without Lopez, they were very competitive against Heat in playoffs, as refs bailed out Heat in 2 highly competitive games, giving them the key calls.....DAMN I hate how much the refs helped Lebron those years.