some trade thoughts for that #1 pick (HORRORS!)

just some , the season has ended and waiting for the draft thoughts on a holiday weekend for me here.

having the top pick in any draft means you should get a player to build around long term. But the top players in this years draft don't exactly fit the needs we have right now. We need an upgrade over the aging Amir Johnson up front and another go-to scorer ( though we may very well have him on our roster now in Jaylen).

with that in mind, I give to you two trade options using the top pick.

#1) Danny pulls a Red and makes a Parish deal like Bob had suggested in another thread earlier. He trades #1 pick to Phily for #3 pick and Okafor. This is almost exactly the GS/Bos trade that got Parish and McHale here. IF Danny thinks as Highly of J. Jackson as Rambone does here, he might jump at making this deal. We get a young big man to replace Amir and Danny still gets his rookie in Jackson or Tatum or Fox or Monk.

#2) The Kings reportedly would jump at the chance to draft Fultz. so Danny takes their call and brings back the #5 and #10 pick along with W. Cauley-Stein for the #1 pick overall. Danny takes one of the Kentucky guards at #5 (some say Fox will end being the best PG from this draft) and adds Texas Big man Jarrett Allen at #10. With the addition of Zizic also this off-season, we are now a much bigger team inside, with youth. Zeller's $8M will be allowed to move off the cap freeing up space easier for that near max player.

add your own trade ideas, if you would even consider them.

kdp59 wrote:just some , the season has ended and waiting for the draft thoughts on a holiday weekend for me here.

having the top pick in any draft means you should get a player to build around long term. But the top players in this years draft don't exactly fit the needs we have right now. We need an upgrade over the aging Amir Johnson up front and another go-to scorer ( though we may very well have him on our roster now in Jaylen).

with that in mind, I give to you two trade options using the top pick.

#1) Danny pulls a Red and makes a Parish deal like Bob had suggested in another thread earlier. He trades #1 pick to Phily for #3 pick and Okafor. This is almost exactly the GS/Bos trade that got Parish and McHale here. IF Danny thinks as Highly of J. Jackson as Rambone does here, he might jump at making this deal. We get a young big man to replace Amir and Danny still gets his rookie in Jackson or Tatum or Fox or Monk.

#2) The Kings reportedly would jump at the chance to draft Fultz. so Danny takes their call and brings back the #5 and #10 pick along with W. Cauley-Stein for the #1 pick overall. Danny takes one of the Kentucky guards  at #5 (some say Fox will end being the best PG from this draft) and adds Texas Big man Jarrett Allen at #10. With the addition of Zizic also this off-season, we are now a much bigger team inside, with youth. Zeller's $8M will be allowed to move off the cap freeing up space easier for that near max player.

add your own trade ideas, if you would even consider them.

kdp,

#1) I've soured on Okafor, mostly because of his defense but also because he has zero offense outside of 5-8'. That makes him no different than Pekovic, who never was going very far. Having said that I think that every player is mere putty on Brad Stevens' wheel and Jahlil could develop into something. We should also remember that Okafor was being shopped when Philly still had Noel. Now that Noel is gone they aren't overloaded with bigs anymore and he might not be as available.

#2) I don't know much about Fox and others, so I can't say.

Here's a thought: Maybe Philly doesn't want Fultz. Maybe they want Ball. Ball has said he'd work out for them, so he's amenable to playing there, and they'll know what they're getting. So, maybe we draft Ball for them, and do the trade as you describe it or some other acceptable version of it. LA then has to decide whether they want Fultz or Jackson. They really don't have a quality, young SF. Clarkson can't play 3, neither can Randle. I suppose Ingram is the SF but he's such a string bean. So, the question they are facing is "are they done with Russell, and do they think Ingram can turn into the KD2 they thought he could become?". I don't know, I don't think they are ready to make a decision on Ingram yet. My point in this is that if LA likes Jackson more than Fultz, for whatever reason, then we could end up with Fultz (#3 instead of #1) and whoever comes with the trade. If Philly is in love with Ball and believes LA will take him with #2, they might go for that. LA could take Fultz with #2 and then we'd get Jackson with #3.

Just a few Memorial Day thoughts.


bob


.

We have the 2018 first rounder that may also come into focus.  

If DA traded this year's pick it would need to be for an elite player.  That is unlikely to happen so I am keeping the pick.

The two trade ideas are not enticing.  If DA makes a big move this year he could draft Fultz, trade Crowder and a future non nets pick and maybe one of our point guards for a big, then convince Hayward to sign for less money than Utah can offer.  Not sure who the unamed big would be but we would have added top pick Fultz and an excellent offensive player in Hayward and we would still have most of our players and future draft assets.

Dboss

I am souring on Okafor too, doesn't really have a good motor, did you guys forget we have Zizic coming over next year to pair with Big Al? Zizic has a motor and loves doing the dirty work, I would rather trust the process and get Fultz to pair with IT and AB and Smart....no way would I even think of trading that 18 pick.

Zizic is the x factor because we have not seen him play on this team.  But I agree that he may be our starting center.

But we need more consistency on the offensive end as well.  Fultz would help in that area immediately as would an upgrade at the 3.  

Since we just completed year 4 of the rebuild we still have year 5.  Quality bigs in the 2018 draft.  Beginning year 6 we should be there.

That is one more full season. If the Celtics are really high on Hayward they would need to sign him this summer and also find a home for Crowder.  Having Jaylen will stabilize the defense if Crowder is moved.

The Celtics would still need to address all of their upcoming free agents.  

Dboss

so the consensus is I should drink more whisky laced with my coffee in the mornings before posting......LOL.

kdp59 wrote:so the consensus is I should drink more whisky laced with my coffee in the mornings before posting......LOL.

.

I am sorry but I am not a fan of Jahil Okafur. He may turn out to be a good player but I certainly am not willing to give Philadelphia the shot at a number one pick again. They are going to be a good team next year if they don't shoot themselves in the foot and trade away Saric. Why should we make then any stronger, they are going to do it on their own.

I am not a big college fan, but, I probably would have to be following these guys in high school because most of them sign with a college, and even if they don't do that well in college, jump in the draft and end up in the top 5-10, Anyway, I am off the topic, keep Okafur let him have his growing pains there in philly, we don't have time for that. Jayen Brown is head and shoulders in maturity compared to Okafur. We lucked out there

well, I would note that Parish was considered an average at best big man at GS, who didn't have a lot of drive. As I recall their were also rumors he liked to smoke weed also back in the day.

I'm not saying that Okafor would become Robert Parish here, but IF Danny likes someone in this years draft more than Fultz,......well, you ever know.

I also do not want Okafor or want to give the 'ers the number one pick for him and #3.

This guy is NEVER going to be Robert Parrish, and I am not sure that Parrish, even in his prime, fits the new NBA as well as he did 30 years ago.

KDP's Sacramento trade is much more to my liking over either trading with the Lakers or the 76ers for four reasons.  

Cauley-Stein would easily be the first big man (and, maybe even the first overall pick) drafted this year if he were just draft eligible while already having two NBA seasons of experience under his belt.  Also, he is very likely to make fast and dramatic improvements working with Stevens and his staff beyond what he has done already in Sacramento with their utter confusion at all levels.  I think that he could be the number one center in the East even as fast as next year, and no one doubts that the Cs need help in the lane.  He is also still on his rookie contract for two more years so he will not hurt the salary limitations while costing less than the first round pick.

Secondly, there are a couple of guys outside of the top 4 guys in this year's draft that could easily fit on the Cs roster next year (replacing Young and Mickey) while building some experience as they wait their turn who may actually turn out to be better NBA players than either Fultz or Ball, and would be better than either Young or Mickey by the end of pre-season's practices.  

Third, Sacramento is only on our schedule twice a year and is still five (or more?) years from becoming a playoff team while Philly is potentially ready to challenge in the East within the next two years.

Finally, the Cs have at least two first round picks in 2018, 2019 and 2020 drafts with very possibly a very early pick (Nets) in the 2018 draft so there is an almost non ending supply of first round picks in the next few years, and that does not even take into consideration what else Ainge can get back in trades for some current players and other draft picks to possibly trade.

In my opinion, Sacramento would not be a good trading partner for the #1 pick.
They need multiple very good players, not a superstar.
They had Cousins for years and never sniffed the playoffs.
They need quantity more than quality.
Good free agents have no interest in signing with Sacramento.
So, it makes sense for them to keep #5 and #10 and Cauley-Stein, instead of the #1 pick.
For Boston to trade down, I don't see many teams dying for the #1 pick.
Lakers: No.
76ers: Simmons will be their PG. They really need a SF.
Suns: They don't need a guard. They need a SF.
Kings: Need multiple players over just 1 player.
Magic: They are a mess. Their roster is filled with good players. No potential stars.
Timberwolves: They need quality over quantity, but PG is not a weakness for them with LaVine, Dunn and Rubio.

If Boston trades the #1, I think it will be for a player, not draft picks.

Here is a list of the #1 picks for the last 16 years:

2016 Ben Simmons - ?
2015 Karl Anthony Towns - ROY, going to be a top NBA player.  Why he isn't already an All-Star is a mystery to me.
2014 Andrew Wiggins - ROY, going to be an All-Star. Had a break out year this year
2013 Anthony Bennett - El Busto, out of the league
2012 Anthony Davis - 4x All-Star, 2x All-NBA 1st Team, All-Defense 2nd team, 2x block leader
2011 Kyrie Irving - 4x All-Star, All-NBA 3rd Team
2010 John Wall - 4x All-Star, All-NBA 3rd Team, All-Defense 2nd team
2009 Blake Griffin - 5x All-Star, 3x All-NBA 2nd team, 1x All-NBA 3rd team
2008 Derek Rose - MVP, 3x All-Star, All NBA 1st team
2007 Greg Oden - El Busto, out of the league
2006 Andrea Bargnani - Barfnani.  El Busto.  out of the league
2005 Andrew Bogut - All-NBA 3rd team, All-Defense 2nd Team, 1x block leader
2004 Dwight Howard - 8x All-Star, 5x NBA First Team, All NBA 2nd team, 2x All NBA 3rd team, 3x DPOY, 4x All Defense First team, NBA All Defense 2nd team, 2x block leader
2003 LeBron James - Greatest player of his generation
2002 Yao Ming - 8x All-Star, 2x All-NBA 2nd team, 3x All-NBA 3rd team
2001 Kwame Brown - El Busto


So, summing this up, there are 4 busts out of 16.  All 4 of those busts were bigs.

Every one of the guards and wings had/are having great careers, no busts or even mediocre players among them (Simmons gets a score of incomplete, or maybe "not started yet").  DRose's problems stem from his injuries, but before them he was unreal.  But only Kyrie Irving, LeBron and Bogut have won championships and Bogut wasn't a major factor in his.  Kyrie didn't win anything until LeBron came back.  In fact, Kyrie's two LeBron-less teams didn't make the playoffs, so he wasn't the difference-maker.

LeBron is the difference-maker.  He's the player that elevates every team into an immediate contender with any talent surrounding him at all.  Cleveland made it to the Finals without Love and Irving 2 years ago and that was because LeBron put them on his shoulders.

All this tells me that having the #1 doesn't necessarily get you a seat in the Finals (unless you have one of the top players to ever play the game).  It's still a team game and, even then, how far has Blake Griffin's Clippers gotten?  Not as far as Isaiah Thomas' Celtics.  Will the addition of a #1 make us better?  Sure, unless he's a bust and, over the past 16 years, not one guard picked #1 has been a bust.

It also tells me that being a multi-time All-Star or All-NBA doesn't win you championships neither. Kyrie needed to play with a transcendental player and Bogut was on a team with the best shooting back court ever.

Just a little perspective, I hope.  This is a talent driven league, like every sport is, but talent is not a silver bullet even if you avoid the El Bustos.


bob


.

The champs of the last 38 years say that its all about super talent - both physical and mental - of the super elite players with 5 or more years in the nba, that bring the experience of veteran play that the young pups so sorely lack. Don't expect some hot shot player with 1 to 4 years in the nba to lead the Celtics to the promised land. The odds are against it.

swish

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.nj.com/v1/articles/20771651/nba_draft_trade_rumors_markelle_fultz_to_sixers_in.amp



NBA Draft trade rumors: Markelle Fultz to Sixers in 3-way blockbuster with Celtics, Kings?



Updated on May 30, 2017 at 01:07 PM EDT
Washington Huskies guard Markelle Fultz (20) shoots the ball as UCLA Bruins guard Aaron Holiday (3) defends.
Washington Huskies guard Markelle Fultz (20) shoots the ball as UCLA Bruins guard Aaron Holiday (3) defends.
(Jennifer Buchanan/USA Today Sports)


By Joe Giglio | NJ Advance Media for NJ.com




If nothing else, Bill Simmons is persistent.

The NBA fan/guru/writer/author/influencer for The Ringer has been pushing one big idea since the 2017 NBA Draft lottery took place: The Sixers finding a way up to the No. 1 overall pick in order to select Washington's Markelle Fultz .


Of course, the thought comes with a caveat: Simmons' favorite team--the Boston Celtics-- won the lottery and owns the selection.

Yet despite the selfish reasons for Simmons to want to push a deal and make people talk about the idea of the Sixers surrendering big assets to move two spots, the thought makes sense in theory. With Boston making it to the Eastern Conference Finals with Isaiah Thomas as the point guard, adding Fultz could cause an issue and make another big deal necessary down the line.

So with that in mind, Simmons (for the third time) created a Sixers-Celtics-No. 1 pick trade scenario . This one came with a twist: A third team in the mix.

Bill Simmons ✔ @BillSimmons
FAKE TRADE
--Philly gets 1 (Fultz)
--Kings get 3 (Fox), 37, Boston's 2018 1st
--Celts get: 5 (Isaac), 10 (?), Saric, LAL's 2018 1st
10:26 AM - 29 May 2017
 110 110 Retweets   698 698 likes


In case that run down wasn't clear, here's what it would mean for the Sixers.

Give up: Dario Saric , 2017 No. 3 overall pick and 2018 unprotected Lakers pick.

Receive: 2017 No. 1 overall pick--likely the rights to Fultz.

Saric to C's?

It's a big price to pay, but could be worth it to set up a trio of stars in Philadelphia. When you factor in this year's swap (No. 3 to No. 1), the Sixers would essentially be giving up Saric and the potential for next year's Lakers team to pick high in the lottery again for Fultz.

The Washington star averaged 23.2 points, 5.9 assists and 5.7 rebounds per game as a freshman during the 2016-17 season.


bob


.

It is surprising to me how many people wast Danny to trade that pick.
To me, unless he has real doubts about this kid, ? Would he trade the one time he can choose the number one pick in the country away?

bobheckler wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/amp.nj.com/v1/articles/20771651/nba_draft_trade_rumors_markelle_fultz_to_sixers_in.amp



NBA Draft trade rumors: Markelle Fultz to Sixers in 3-way blockbuster with Celtics, Kings?



Updated on May 30, 2017 at 01:07 PM EDT
Washington Huskies guard Markelle Fultz (20) shoots the ball as UCLA Bruins guard Aaron Holiday (3) defends.
Washington Huskies guard Markelle Fultz (20) shoots the ball as UCLA Bruins guard Aaron Holiday (3) defends.
(Jennifer Buchanan/USA Today Sports)


By Joe Giglio | NJ Advance Media for NJ.com




If nothing else, Bill Simmons is persistent.

The NBA fan/guru/writer/author/influencer for The Ringer has been pushing one big idea since the 2017 NBA Draft lottery took place: The Sixers finding a way up to the No. 1 overall pick in order to select Washington's Markelle Fultz .


Of course, the thought comes with a caveat: Simmons' favorite team--the Boston Celtics-- won the lottery and owns the selection.

Yet despite the selfish reasons for Simmons to want to push a deal and make people talk about the idea of the Sixers surrendering big assets to move two spots, the thought makes sense in theory. With Boston making it to the Eastern Conference Finals with Isaiah Thomas as the point guard, adding Fultz could cause an issue and make another big deal necessary down the line.

So with that in mind, Simmons (for the third time) created a Sixers-Celtics-No. 1 pick trade scenario . This one came with a twist: A third team in the mix.

Bill Simmons ✔ @BillSimmons
FAKE TRADE
--Philly gets 1 (Fultz)
--Kings get 3 (Fox), 37, Boston's 2018 1st
--Celts get: 5 (Isaac), 10 (?), Saric, LAL's 2018 1st
10:26 AM - 29 May 2017
 110 110 Retweets   698 698 likes


In case that run down wasn't clear, here's what it would mean for the Sixers.

Give up: Dario Saric , 2017 No. 3 overall pick and 2018 unprotected Lakers pick.

Receive: 2017 No. 1 overall pick--likely the rights to Fultz.

Saric to C's?

It's a big price to pay, but could be worth it to set up a trio of stars in Philadelphia. When you factor in this year's swap (No. 3 to No. 1), the Sixers would essentially be giving up Saric and the potential for next year's Lakers team to pick high in the lottery again for Fultz.

The Washington star averaged 23.2 points, 5.9 assists and 5.7 rebounds per game as a freshman during the 2016-17 season.


bob


.

Bill Simmons bleeds green.
This trade proposal is not close to realistic.
If there was a head and shoulder true #1 this year, this could be an interesting trade proposal.
Fultz looks like he will go to Boston, but it's no lock.

swish wrote:The champs of the last 38 years say that its all about super talent - both physical and mental - of the super elite players with 5 or more years in the nba, that bring the experience of veteran play that the young pups so sorely lack. Don't expect some hot shot player with 1 to 4 years in the nba to lead the Celtics to the promised land. The odds are against it.

 swish

Each piece is filling in the puzzle.  Sometimes you find that special piece and the puzzle  becomes easier.  Plus there are sure to be multple other roster changes all designed to get better.  A free agent signing or a trade may yield a significant piece.

Interesting summer ahead.

Dboss

Dammit Simmons one upped me again!

in that vein......why not,

Phily get #1 pick.

Kings get Okafor and Lakers pick


Celtics get WCS and #3 pick.

there I like that better.

Saric from Philly please, if we do not sign a forward/shooter

kdp59 wrote:Dammit Simmons one upped me again!

in that vein......why not,

Phily get #1 pick.

Kings get  Okafor and Lakers pick


Celtics get WCS and #3 pick.

there I like that better.

kdp,

I'm not sure Okafor is still on the table. He was their preferred trade asset but that was before they traded Noel to Dallas. If they trade Okafor, who is their back up center?

Not that I'm opposed to your trade, I'm just thinking Philly's priorities might have changed.


bob


.

Well, I have two trade ideas. Crowder and #1 to PHI for Saric and #3 (I'd consider Okafor). If PHI takes Ball, LAL takes Jackson, we still get Fultz. If PHI takes Fultz and LAL takes Ball, we get Jackson.

My second trade has #1 and Crowder going to NYK for Porzingas and #8. If they insist we take Melo, then we wait until July, move Melo to LAC, with Redick and Crowder going to NYK, and we get Porzingas and whoever they took at #8.

red16russ11 wrote:Well, I have two trade ideas.  Crowder and #1 to PHI for Saric and #3 (I'd consider Okafor).  If PHI takes Ball, LAL takes Jackson, we still get Fultz.  If PHI takes Fultz and LAL takes Ball, we get Jackson.

My second trade has #1 and Crowder going to NYK for Porzingas and #8.  If they insist we take Melo, then we wait until July, move Melo to LAC, with Redick and Crowder going to NYK, and we get Porzingas and whoever they took at #8.

A swap will Philly has been talked about here but wouldn't Philly be looking more for Guard help? Saric is an upgrade over Kelly, so does that mean we let Kelly walk as a RFA? and what happens on draft day, if Philly Takes Fultz and Lakers take Jackson? would we pick Ball or look to Tatum or Fox instead?

I am one who thinks Porzingas is going nowhere. Not even for the top pick. Jackson may have mental deficits but he's not totally nuts.

kdp59 wrote:

red16russ11 wrote:Well, I have two trade ideas.  Crowder and #1 to PHI for Saric and #3 (I'd consider Okafor).  If PHI takes Ball, LAL takes Jackson, we still get Fultz.  If PHI takes Fultz and LAL takes Ball, we get Jackson.

My second trade has #1 and Crowder going to NYK for Porzingas and #8.  If they insist we take Melo, then we wait until July, move Melo to LAC, with Redick and Crowder going to NYK, and we get Porzingas and whoever they took at #8.

A swap will Philly has been talked about here but wouldn't Philly be looking more for Guard help? Saric is an upgrade over Kelly, so does that mean we let Kelly walk as a RFA? and what happens on draft day, if Philly Takes Fultz and Lakers take Jackson? would we pick Ball or look to Tatum or Fox instead?

I am one who thinks Porzingas is going nowhere. Not even for the top pick. Jackson may have mental deficits but he's not totally nuts.

I would also do AB and #1 for Saric and #3. If your trade scenario comes to pass, then, yes, we'd take Tatum or Fox. NO on Ball. As for Kelly, if he gets a big offer, like Turner, I can't see us matching it right now, and not because we don't want to. Danny traded UP to get him, so I'm sure he'd like to keep him. But I think that would eliminate a chance for a max Free Agent, again, depending upon the deal he gets.

I also posit trading AB to the Pistons for #12....what does anyone think of that? DET is said to be shopping the pick, and wants vets.

kdp59 wrote:

red16russ11 wrote:Well, I have two trade ideas.  Crowder and #1 to PHI for Saric and #3 (I'd consider Okafor).  If PHI takes Ball, LAL takes Jackson, we still get Fultz.  If PHI takes Fultz and LAL takes Ball, we get Jackson.

My second trade has #1 and Crowder going to NYK for Porzingas and #8.  If they insist we take Melo, then we wait until July, move Melo to LAC, with Redick and Crowder going to NYK, and we get Porzingas and whoever they took at #8.

A swap will Philly has been talked about here but wouldn't Philly be looking more for Guard help? Saric is an upgrade over Kelly, so does that mean we let Kelly walk as a RFA?  and what happens on draft day, if Philly Takes Fultz and Lakers take Jackson? would we pick Ball or look to Tatum or Fox instead?

I am one who thinks Porzingas is going nowhere. Not even for the top pick. Jackson may have mental deficits but he's not totally nuts.

I agree with kdp. I think the only possible way of getting Porzingis, and even then this is only a slight possibility, is if we take Melo too.

And we'd have to give up AB and Crowder too. Crowder alone wouldn't cut it. Certainly not if we have to take Melo too because then we're looking at salary matching problems. According to the ESPN trade machine, this deal works from a salary matching perspective:

Bradley + Crowder + Olynyk (sign-and-trade $12-$15M/year) = Melo + Porzingis.

I'm not saying Phil would take that deal, I'm sure he'd want picks too, but from a pure salary matching perspective this flies.


Another deal that could work, if I understood this a little better, might be:

Celtics get Porzingis from NYK, JJ Redick and Jamal Crawford from Clippers
Knicks get Bradley, Crowder, Kelly
Clippers get Melo.

Once again, this deal does not include draft picks. Also, Clippers are over their cap limit by $1.4M, so maybe a player trade exception could make it work...?

Still a helluva long shot, but there is no way I see Jackson giving up Porzingis without someone taking Melo, and even then maybe not. At least, in this scenario, Phil unloads an albatross, goes much younger and gets two starters and a key bench player from the #1 team in the EC.


bob


.