ESPN Cuts Six Celtics, Adds Three To List Of NBA’s 50 Greatest Players

Sorry swish I don't see how any of these stats prove anything

Old school and mulcogiseng

Just a little defense of the current nba player who I think gets a little slighted by some of the old timers.

There was a time when I thought that the super stars of my youth were the absolute greatest - and they were at the time - but then time marches on. Here's a little time capsule for you.

(Minimum number of minutes played for year = 600)
1961-62 Celtics,,,,, The team that Cousy called the best Celtic team he ever played on - Nba champ
Average weight of front court = 215.8 lbs.
Average 2 point shooting percentage = 41.4% - Highest - 46.1 - Lowest - 35.5%


1985-86 Celts,,,,, NBA champ
Average weight of front court - 217.0 lbs
Average 2 point shooting percentage = 52.8% - highest - 57.4% - lowest - 46.8%


2016-17 Warriors,,,,, NBA champ
Average weight of front court - 245.8 lbs
Average 2 point shooting percentage = 56.2% - highest - 65.8 - lowest - 49.4%



Only a handful of board members that date back to the 50-60 Celtics (Sam, Rosie, Spike and Mulcogiseng) and I want to acknowledge the greatness of Russell, Wilt, Pettit, Schayes,West,Baylor,S Jones, and another 50 plus greats that made my basketball fanship such a pleasure back in those early years.

swish

cowens/oldschool wrote:Sorry swish I don't see how any of these stats prove anything

Then take a peak at my last post

swish

Swish
Average weight of my front court players comes in around 240. I don't know where to look for 2 point %. But my teams average jersey number is much lower.

MrKleen
That's always one of the problems, who matches up. But if you think Magic is going to make that sky hook? forgettaboutit Force MJ to hit from outside and his effectiveness goes down. Barfley never won nothing.

I would never consider Wilt and Bill slow and only a handful could enter the conversation of who was stronger compared with Wilt. Having GOAT and Wilt on the floor is my difference maker.

And my guys carried their own luggage.

The most important part of course is that all of these guys, on every team, could ball

Mulcogiseng

I dont think we will agree, so we can leave it aside.

I still dont see any guards from the 60s who could guard Magic Johnson or Michael Jordan for that matter. And I still dont see who is matching up with Scottie Pippen or Charles Barkley.

But to each his own.

mulcogiseng wrote:Swish
Average weight of my front court players comes in around 240. I don't know where to look for 2 point %. But my teams average jersey number is much lower.

MrKleen
That's always one of the problems, who matches up. But if you think Magic is going to make that sky hook? forgettaboutit Force MJ to hit from outside and his effectiveness goes down. Barfley never won nothing.

I would never consider Wilt and Bill slow and only a handful could enter the conversation of who was stronger compared with Wilt. Having GOAT and Wilt on the floor is my difference maker.

And my guys carried their own luggage.

The most important part of course is that all of these guys, on every team, could ball

 Mulcogiseng and oldschoold

 Its all about the level of competition  that different era players faced - so in response to your below statement I'll take the time to remind you of just  how inferior the level of play was when wilt played (14 years).

 "I would never consider Wilt and Bill slow and only a handful could enter the conversation of who was stronger compared with Wilt. Having GOAT and Wilt on the floor is my difference maker."

  Consider the fact that the Centers that averaged at least 20 minutes per game and played against Wilt only averaged 227.5 lbs - mere fly weights when compared to the super heavy weights (253.8 lbs) that he would have faced over the last 14 years.

 And then there is the art of shooting.  During Wilts day there were 33 centers that Wilt faced and only 3 averaged .500 or better, with 3 shooting a dismal .392 and lower  - while the Centers of the last 14 years have 42 of 42 shooting at a .500 clip or better.

Father time has a big impact on the increase of skill levels, in just about all endeavors, over the eras. Learn from the past and build on that knowledge.


   swish

Swish
Weight is not part of an NBA skill set. I have Bill and Wilt at #1 and 2 in my all time NBA list. Would Wilt dominate the way he did against the current level of talent? Maybe not but Wilt never thought that. He was convinced he would be great at any point in history and I don't doubt him one bit. He was a great player then and would be so today. In fact, he thot he would be even better and more dominate because of the difference in the rules

I've been checked more than once over the years by holding onto my memories of the greatest basketball dynasty in history. I don't mind at all because while it may be easy to prove me wrong on any given point, I don't think that would happen on the court, team vs team, (not player vs player).

You make the case that the size/weight of modern players would be a pivotal part of my teams downfall. But no one was as big or strong as Wilt, and if they came close, they clearly weren't as skilled. As Wilt said, "Today they change the rules of the game to make a player like MJ even better. In my day they changed the rules to stop me." And he was consistently outplayed and lost to Bill.

Where your mindset can make a difference is in guard play. Mr Kleen correctly pointed out that there would be some matchup problems by my reliance on Cousy and other smaller perimeter players. That's one reason why I called for 60s rules and no 3 point shot. It levels the field more and allows my superior defense to pull out the win.

While I still think my team would win a seven game series, in fact, they will never play those games. It's what makes intergenerational conversations like this so compelling. And always popular. It's all just opinion and the passion of the presenter is just as important as what backs the choice, IMO. Great is Great!

mulcogiseng

While weight is not a skill set it sure has been a big time factor in the evolution of the game over the eras - as the differences between the Wilt years and the present completely show.. I don't know just how good Wilt would be today - but I do know that Wilts stats were achieved against players that were far inferior then the modern basketball player. As far as your teams of the 60's Celtic dynasty handling the champ teams of the present day, and for that matter, the teams of the 80's and 90's, as well - In my opinion - no way
You already have the match up of the Wilt years Centers vs the present day - I'll follow up this post with a look at the guards and forwards of the Russell and present generation.

swish

The conversation has narrowed down to just 2 people, so due to lack of interest I guess its time for me to sign off on this subject.

swish

swish wrote:The conversation has narrowed down to just 2 people, so due to lack of interest I guess its time for me to sign off on this subject.

  swish

It's like debating God or free will. No one can win this debate. There's no way to test it. You'd have to factor in everything. No palming. No traveling. You only get a step and a half.

I could see Boston from the Bird era beating the Warriors. Perhaps that Celtics run was so talented it would cancel out weight differences?

It seems impossible to debate or everything that could be said about it was posted.

Are you saying Bird would get no time to weight train or try to build up and he'd be tossed around like a rag doll? DJ couldn't shut down Curry? Or JoJo White. I forget the players, but they were highly skilled perhaps much more than today's players.

Phil Pressey wrote:

swish wrote:The conversation has narrowed down to just 2 people, so due to lack of interest I guess its time for me to sign off on this subject.

  swish

It's like debating God or free will. No one can win this debate. There's no way to test it. You'd have to factor in everything. No palming. No traveling. You only get a step and a half.

I could see Boston from the Bird era beating the Warriors. Perhaps that Celtics run was so talented it would cancel out weight differences?

It seems impossible to debate or everything that could be said about it was posted.

Are you saying Bird would get no time to weight train or try to build up and he'd be tossed around like a rag doll? DJ couldn't shut down Curry? Or JoJo White. I forget the players, but they were highly skilled perhaps much more than today's players.

 Phil Pressey

 It looks like we have a basic difference of opinion in regards to the relative effect that size and skill levels have have had on different generations of basketball. Olympic track and field events are my Rosetta Stone which record the continuous upward trend of record breaking performances - and its obvious that basketball has also benefited by the passage of time. I've said many times in the past that in my opinion the game of basketball came of age in the late 70's. At that point shooting percentages peaked and Blacks totally dominated the speed positions as the ball handling skills saw more and more use of the non shooting hand - and then it was into the nineties and the weights of the "bigs" really increased. The last 16 years have brought on the International players who now rank 2nd to blacks on nba rosters. Huge,huge gap between the 50's and the present with the gap between the distant pass and the present shrinking a little each decade. For two, old time Hall Of Famers, Bob Cousy and Jerry West, Speaking in 1992, it was the shooting(Cousy) and the Ball handling (West) that amazed them the most. By the way - With out a make over it could be quite difficult for Bird match ups in the recent years. I guess I prefer to judge the real Bird as he was in the 80's, rather than the might have been if if if !


  swish

swish

The modern team you picked stinks, you could have done so much better.

Your weight height logic is also flawed terribly and you keep going back to flawed logic that makes your stats useless. Dave Cowens wasn't the biggest, either is Al Horford, how would they match up against Roy Hibbert or Jared Sullinger? Barkley came into the league over 300 pounds and knew he had to lose weight to survive and maximize his abilities. Our own Marcus Smart just lost 20 pounds and has much more speed, endurance and faster lift.

On modern day athleticism, theres a ton of players with modern sick athleticism, too many to name and guess what, they suck and can't play. Ever hear of Ricky Davis or Jeff Green? old school guys like Paul Silas and Willis Reed just knew how to play, had the skills and a nose for the ball. Last night our starting center Baynes grabbed 9 rebounds, the opposite taller more athletic, younger center Cauly Stein grabbed 3 boards. If you can play, you can play, its not just weight and speed added up over and over to prove whos taller or heavier and that must mean their better- NOT!!!!! you really don't get it, this is basketball, Tim Duncan lost a bunch of weight to extend his career. Your basic larger is better stats theory could make sense in football, not basketball or soccer.

cow

Oldschool

Nice to hear from you again on this subject. Once again you just don't seem to want to compare apples with apples - so once again i'll try to show you the differences between eras - sit tight - I'll be back in a while.

swish

McHale wouldn't dominate today's game?

I also think you have to give the old guys 20 extra pounds of muscle with speed. There was no reason to bulk up as much back then, but it could've been done.

This is all hypothetical and can never be proven either way. I lean towards the Cowens side of the argument.

I hate the Lakers, but Magic Johnson would dominate today's league. I think the play has gotten worse. I think the players from the past were much more skilled than those of today. These are divas. Back then they were pure basketball players.

Golden State is a fluke. They have four top players at the same time. I don't know how long that can go. The Celtics will have that soon too as young players emerge earlier than expected and Danny reaps the full benefits of sowed assets.

I'm not trying to derail the debate. I love this sort of talk despite not being well-skilled in the topic.

Phil Pressey wrote:McHale wouldn't dominate today's game?

I also think you have to give the old guys 20 extra pounds of muscle with speed. There was no reason to bulk up as much back then, but it could've been done.

This is all hypothetical and can never be proven either way. I lean towards the Cowens side of the argument.

I hate the Lakers, but Magic Johnson would dominate today's league. I think the play has gotten worse. I think the players from the past were much more skilled than those of today. These are divas. Back then they were pure basketball players.

Golden State is a fluke. They have four top players at the same time. I don't know how long that can go. The Celtics will have that soon too as young players emerge earlier than expected and Danny reaps the full benefits of sowed assets.

I'm not trying to derail the debate. I love this sort of talk despite not being well-skilled in the topic.

Agree with you Phil, ever see how many times Golden State can turn the ball over with sloppy play? They get away with it because it's a weak era, too many players on too many teams. I also think the weight of my era/team is fine, they can gain it, but they can also play at their natural weight and do just fine. My bigs are particularly scary Olajuwon, Jabbar, McHale and Shaq....foughettiabout and those 4 playing with Magic, Jordan and Bird. I've got the 2 best 2nd bananas ever in McHale and Pippen. Young McHale could defend any position on the frontline, was unstoppable in the post. Pippen could defend multiple positions, as could Jordan and Drexler. My guys can play any style, we have the most unstoppable half court weapon, the Jabbar skyhook and the greatest collection of clutch players in Jordan, Bird, Magic and Isiah.

cowens/oldschool wrote:

Phil Pressey wrote:McHale wouldn't dominate today's game?

I also think you have to give the old guys 20 extra pounds of muscle with speed. There was no reason to bulk up as much back then, but it could've been done.

This is all hypothetical and can never be proven either way. I lean towards the Cowens side of the argument.

I hate the Lakers, but Magic Johnson would dominate today's league. I think the play has gotten worse. I think the players from the past were much more skilled than those of today. These are divas. Back then they were pure basketball players.

Golden State is a fluke. They have four top players at the same time. I don't know how long that can go. The Celtics will have that soon too as young players emerge earlier than expected and Danny reaps the full benefits of sowed assets.

I'm not trying to derail the debate. I love this sort of talk despite not being well-skilled in the topic.

Agree with you Phil, ever see how many times Golden State can turn the ball over with sloppy play? They get away with it because it's a weak era, too many players on too many teams. I also think the weight of my era/team is fine, they can gain it, but they can also play at their natural weight and do just fine. My bigs are particularly scary Olajuwon, Jabbar, McHale and Shaq....foughettiabout and those 4 playing with Magic, Jordan and Bird. I've got the 2 best 2nd bananas ever in McHale and Pippen. Young McHale could defend any position on the frontline, was unstoppable in the post. Pippen could defend multiple positions, as could Jordan and Drexler. My guys can play any style, we have the most unstoppable half court weapon, the Jabbar skyhook and the greatest collection of clutch players in Jordan, Bird, Magic and Isiah.

Old school

I greatly respect your basketball knowledge and your opinions on this subject - But I think its time for you present some real hard data to support your opinions

swish

Data, you mean stats, I'm not a stats guy, I think I debunked your stats on this thread as pretty useless.

Name me 3 6'6"-6'8" 2 way wings as good as Jordan, Pippen and Drexler? Name one big as skilled, tenacious and athletic as Olajuwon? Name me one big as durable and skilled as Kareem? Name me one big as powerful as Shaq? The real IT is even more tenacious, skilled and clutch than any of your little guards....and I got Larry, Magic and even Barkley to torment you further. Why don't you try explaining how your teams identity can not get destroyed by my team, you can't, but maybe you'll surprise me.