POST GAME MIAMI - AWAY

Kyrie Irving’s late flurry helps Celtics top Heat, 96-90

BOSTON.COM By TIM REYNOLDS

MIAMI (AP) — Kyrie Irving scored nine of his 24 points in the final 2:03, and the Boston Celtics extended their winning streak to four games after holding on late to beat the Miami Heat 96-90 on Saturday night.

Jayson Tatum scored 20 and Marcus Smart added 16 for the Celtics, who beat Miami for the eighth consecutive time.

It was Irving’s eighth time playing at Miami — and the first time he was part of a win. Miami cut Boston’s lead to two on a pair of occasions late, and Irving answered with a basket both times to give the Celtics some breathing room.

He sealed the win with 57 seconds left, connecting on a 3-pointer for a 93-86 lead.

Goran Dragic scored 22 points for Miami, which got 16 apiece from Josh Richardson and James Johnson. Former Boston forward Kelly Olynyk had 14 points and nine rebounds for the Heat, who were 7 for 31 from 3-point range.

Boston outscored Miami 53-37 in the middle two quarters — holding the Heat to 39 percent shooting from the field and 19 percent from 3-point range during that 24-minute span — and took an 11-point lead into the fourth, looking very much in control.

That is, until the Celtics went cold and the Heat showed some signs of life. A 7-0 Heat run got Miami within two, and that’s when Irving took over.

TIP INS

Celtics: Boston has won five straight in Miami, matching the longest such streak in franchise history. … The Celtics aren’t sure if Marcus Morris (sore left knee) will be able to play when they return home Monday, but coach Brad Stevens thinks Morris will be ready sometime in the coming week. Morris has already missed as many games this season — six — as he did in the previous four seasons combined.

Heat: C Hassan Whiteside (bruised left knee) missed his fourth consecutive game, and the Heat still aren’t sure when he’ll return. … Miami had what became a five-point possession late in the second quarter, when Richardson made two free throws after a Flagrant-1 on Al Horford — followed by a three-point play from James Johnson. … Dion Waiters didn’t play in the fourth quarter and scored only five points.
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HELLO, AGAIN

Stevens keeps a close eye on former players, and Olynyk and Jordan Mickey — former Celtics now with the Heat — are no exception. “I really root for everybody,” Stevens said. Same goes for Heat coach Erik Spoelstra, who texted injured Celtics forward Gordon Hayward words of support after the All-Star’s grotesque ankle injury in Cleveland in the season opener. Hayward considered signing with Miami as a free agent this past summer.

SCORING DROUGHT

Miami was held under 100 points for the first time this season.

UP NEXT

Celtics: Host San Antonio on Monday, looking to snap an 11-game losing streak to the Spurs.
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Kyrie delivers late to help Celtics hold off Heat rally for 96-90 win

NBC SPORTS BOSTON By A. Sherrod Blakely October 28, 2017 10:26 PM

Game is on the line, the Boston Celtics are reeling, in desperate need of someone, anyone to step up and make big baskets.

These are the moments that Kyrie Irving lives for, and for good reason.

More often than not, he steps up to save the day.

And on Saturday night, he once again delivered when it mattered most as the Celtics held off a late Miami rally to escape with a 96-90 win.

Irving finished with 24 points which included him scoring nine of the Celtics' last ten. The victory extends their winning streak to four straight.

"End of the game, it's winning time." Irving told NBC Sports Boston's Abby Chin following the win. "

Boston seemed to have control of the game even before Irving’s late-game scoring spurt, but a technical foul call against Jaylen Brown changed the game’s momentum in the fourth quarter.

Miami made the technical free throw with 4:03 to play and then scored the next six to make it a one-possession game, 86-84.

Following a Boston timeout with 2:16 to play, it was clear what the plan was going forward: let Irving take over.

And that he did, scoring nine straight in an assortment of ways such as driving lay-ups, a 3-pointer and from the free throw line.

Al Horford, who had a near double-double of 12 points and nine rebounds, made the second of two free throws with 10.9 seconds to play for Boston’s last point of the night.

The first half was relatively close, but Boston pulled ahead by as many as nine points (43-34) in the second quarter, only for the Heat to come back with a 13-4 to tie the game at 47.

That appeared to be how the half would end, but a full-court pass took advantage of a sleeping Heat defense and allowed Irving to score the go-ahead basket to give Boston a 49-47 lead at the half.

Boston continued its solid play in the third quarter, in large part to what was shaping up to be a solid game for Jayson Tatum who scored nine of his 20 points in the third quarter which ended with Boston on top, 74-65.

Miami opened the fourth with a 10-4 spurt that was fueled in large part by a familiar face for the Celtics – Kelly Olynyk.

Olynyk, who spent his first four seasons with the Celtics, signed a four-year, $50 million contract with the Heat this summer.

And it was money well spent considering the impact Olynyk had while coming off Miami’s bench. He was particularly effective in the fourth quarter, scoring six points during Miami’s 10-4 spurt to start the fourth which included him scoring on a lay-up to cut Boston’s lead to 78-75 with 7:49 to play. He would finish with a near double-double of 14 points and nine rebounds.

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Liked the effort. Shooting has to improve.Marcus Smart and Shane Larkin are the only true point guards on the roster. Rozier is still helter-skelter and Kyrie is looking to score, not  distribute.

Kyrie has been distributing, so I'm not sure what games you're looking at. The problem has been guys missing open shots and making bad passes. Kyrie has been unselfish and when we need points, he can go get them.


KJ

k_j_88 wrote:Kyrie has been distributing, so I'm not sure what games you're looking at. The problem has been guys missing open shots and making bad passes. Kyrie has been unselfish and when we need points, he can go get them.


KJ

Yes, that's true, so far shot selection has been something to work on.

I`m watching the games where Kyrie is averaging less than 6 assists per game while turning it over 3 times, shooting below 42 percent from the field and 32 from 3, a result of frequently forcing his shot. I`m watching the times where the play clock runs down while he dribbles around. I was watching the game last night, where Stevens put the ball in Smart`s hands to get more ball movement . I`m not sure why you feel the necessity of being snide, k_j. Apparently we have a different opinion of Kyrie`s point guard bona fides, a skill set he himself has said he needs to work on because he had a different role in Cleveland. I`m watching the same games you are and seeing things differently. It happens.

jrleftfoot wrote:Liked the effort. Shooting has to improve.Marcus Smart and Shane Larkin are the only true point guards on the roster. Rozier is still helter-skelter and Kyrie is looking to score, not  distribute.

Smart definitely has to improve at shooting. I agree Rozier and Kyrie are better off not playing as traditional point guards. I don't agree that Kyrie doesn't look to distribute. It looks like he is still getting familiar with the way Brad teaches offense.

Irving has been so good at defense. That to me is as big a surprise as anything. I must have read at least 100 posts after the trade saying he was awful at it and not much better than Isaiah.

I think Kyrie will improve with his assists to turnover ratio. If not, then he's still a great shooting guard with point guard skills. Just pair him with a tall guard like Smart who can get assists without turnovers.

The big huge center is going the way of the dinosaur. Maybe the traditional point guard is losing its historical definition over time as teams start to whip the ball around and not rely on a Rondo to hold everyone's hand and do all that sort of dirty work of the classic point guard.

It helps to have guys like Horford who dribbles a lot without losing the ball. When Smart was struggling, Brad would pair him with Evan Turner. Brad is proactive and gives us a fighting chance every game with his adjustments. I am not worried about Kyrie Irving. I give him an A+ so far for attitude and effort.

This was a rather ugly grind it out game on the road.

The Celtics brought home the win.  The TEAM is now 4-2 and 3-1 on the road.

Their offense remains stagnate lacking a consistent flow.  I thought they played two much halfcourt basketball and pace was noticeably slow as they only put up 81 shots from the field.  This team is still in the process of figuring things out and coach Stevens continues to evaluate various combinations.

It was nice to see Theis get some offensive looks and he made the most of them.  I mentioned before that he is really an excellent high pick and role guy and I would like to see Brad set him up for more P&R opportunities.

Some players are still struggling shooting the ball but they are not letting that dictate how hard they play on defense.

After the game Brad mentioned that he sat Jason Tatum too long and I was feeling the same way while watching the game.  I am truly amazed at how good this kid is.  

The Spurs are up next so Boston will need to play a lot better.  It appears Marcus Morris may not be activated on Monday.  Brad wants him to get in a hard practice session with his teammates.  

dboss

Another nice road win.  We are now 4-2, 3-1 on the road and that road loss was game 1 vs Cleveland when we lost Hayward and still rallied to lose by only 3.  It is truly astonishing how Brad has pulled this back together, not just with the injury to Hayward but with the shortened pre-season.  Less practice time to work out a lot of different units so it really is OJT for everybody, including the starters who need to learn the deep bench.  I really am in awe of him.  Nobody scrambles, when things suddenly turn to shit, and turns it around into roses like Brad.

Kyrie is really spinning me around.  He was 4-13 at halftime, which is awful, but he was the only one taking shots.  Everybody else was deferring to him and they were giving him the ball when the clock only had 5-8 seconds left.  It's like they were saying "ok, they didn't bite on any of our attempts to create mismatches so we just giving up and don't want the spotlight.  Here's the ball Kyrie, bail us out".  This is a disturbing thing since we need players to want to take shots.  If all our players ONLY want to take shots when they are open our team offense will suffer, and it wasn't smooth last night, because NBA defenses are constructed nowadays to be super-fast so they can close out shooters.  This isn't the '80s when defenses were designed to protect the paint and the rim.  You have to take shots and you have to expect there will be someone on you, or closing on you quickly, when you take them.  After going 4-13 in the 1st half, however, Uncle Drew decided to show up.  Irving ended up 10-23, which means he shot 6-10 in the 2nd half.  He took over the 4th quarter.  Kyrie's man-to-man defense is suspect but he's getting his hands on passes and balls and making deflections and steals.  3 steals for Irving last night, and that's a Celtic team high.  Considering we've got some ball hawks like Smart and Rozier on the floor, that's pretty good.  He scored the last 7 points, all in the last 2 minutes, and 9 of the last 10 Celtic points, to win the game and take scoring honors away from Tatum.

One player who did not defer to Irving in the first half was Mahcus Smaht.  We got the good twin last night.  16 points on 6-12, 2 steals and 4 rebounds but a few of those rebounds were monsters.  He got the offensive rebound that iced the game against two Heat players, at least one of whom was 4-5" taller than him.  Give me this Marcus Smart and I will pay him whatever he wants because this one has no major flaws but several major skills.  Other than shooting (and how often do we get to set aside Smart's shooting without apologizing for it?) his floor generalship was excellent.  They ran the same play 3x in a row with different options off of each and he ran each one perfectly.  He penetrated, keeping his man on his hip, and when Theis' man came up to stop him he lobbed the alley-oop to Theis for the flush.  Then he penetrated, keeping his man on his hip, and when Theis' man didn't come up to stop him, he scored himself with a floater.  The third time he penetrated, keeping his man on his hip, and when Theis' man came up to stop him and other players collapsed on him he kicked it out to Tatum for the 3.  Same play, different options off it, all run to perfection by Smart keeping his head up and knowing where everybody was.  He also shut down Dion Waiters on defense.  Waiters started off the game hot, torturing Jaylen Brown, but stopped scoring and picked up some quick fouls that got him sat down when Smart came in.  Smart posted him up and Waiters, just like so many others, couldn't handle him in the low post.  Smart made a few mental errors as a floor general, mostly on his shot selection and discipline, but overall he was quite good.

Jaylen has come back down to earth.  After a couple of real eye-opening games he is struggling a bit.  As I said Waiters had a good start with Brown on him.  After averaging All-Star numbers for the first few games he went 1-7 last night.  He got so frustrated he picked up a T in the 4th.  Brad was angry with that but if Doc was still coaching he'd have been pulled immediately, that was Doc's #1 Commandment.  Thou Shalt Not Get T'd Up In The 4th Quarter.

If Jaylen's been struggling Jayson has, with the exception of a game or so, been really showing something.  He was the GAME high scorer with 20 points on a very efficient 6-9 until Irving took over when he had 16 points and Dragic tried to turn the tide in the 4th.  How good has Tatum been?  


A. Sherrod Blakely @ASherrodblakely

yesterday

Of the top-5 all-time scorers for the @Celtics, only one (Larry Bird in 5G) had a pair of 20-pt games quicker than @Jayson Tatum. @NBCSCeltics
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Jay King‏Verified account 

[ltr]@ByJayKing[/ltr]

  13h13 hours ago
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Jayson Tatum averages through six games: 15.2 points, 6.3 rebounds, 50.9% FG, 53.3% 3PT.
22 replies270 retweets783 likes
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[size=1]Li[/size]
Tatum is shooting 51/53/86.  That's pretty amazing for anybody but for a rookie?!  After just 6 games, with 3 of them against quality teams?!  Wow.


Baynes played a great game, one of those games that all of it doesn't show up in the boxscore.  He only had 6 points on 2-3 and 5 rebounds in 24 minutes.  Doesn't sound that amazing for a center, does it?  But he had 4 blocks and more than a few shots intimidated at the rim by just standing there like Mt. Monadnock and having drivers bounce back off him.  A real impact game last night.  He anchored the baseline and did it as well as anybody.  He's Perk, with a shot.


Jay King @ByJayKing

about 5 hours ago

Tiny sample size (68 minutes), but Baynes-Horford lineups have allowed 78.2 points per 100 possessions. (*Insert eye emojis here*)
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Jay King @ByJayKing

about 9 hours ago

The Celtics DREB rate with Aron Baynes on the court: 86.9 percent. Without him: 78.2 percent. They needed someone just like him.
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Brown, Horford, Rozier combined for 6-25, 24%, in a total 91 player minutes.  There are a total of 240 player minutes in a regulation game, so they represent 37.9% of the total and they took 31% of all Celtic fgas.  Those are NOT good numbers.  You don't need numbers to see they weren't scoring, but it does bring home how large their impact is on the bigger score.

We won the rebounding battle again, 41-40.  We have turned into a very good rebounding team.  We've all freaked out, to one degree or another, about the changes Danny made this off-season but he seems to have fixed this.  We are now 7th in total defensive rebounds/game.  We were, what, 27th or something like that last year?

One of the stats that people consider significant, to determine just how strong a team truly is, is point-differential.  In short, it's our offensive points scored average - defensive points given up.  The bigger the differential, the stronger you are because it means you are winning by bigger, safer margins.  We are currently 7th, with a +5.5 differential.  Last year we had a good season record but our differential was small.  That's why many (including Danny and Wyc, apparently) felt we overachieved.

Some more team stats:  We are 7th in opponents 2nd chance points (we're good at not giving up 2nd shots, which goes to our defensive rebounding rate).  We are 3rd in defensive rebound % (what % of the total defensive rebounds available do we get).  We are tied for 4th in steals/game.  We are 2nd (second!) in defensive rating at 95.1 ppg.  Only the Clips have a stingier defense than us.  Not GSW (22nd), not Utah with Gobert (6th), not Detroit with Drummond (11th).

Kelly turned it on for his ex-team.  14 points on 3-7 and 9 rebounds (2 offensive) in 24 minutes.  He also had 3 blocks.  He took 8ftas, something he never did as a Celtic.  That's because he was getting calls last night I've never seen him get as a Celtic.   

BAM!! Adebayo is the new BisMACK BiyOMMMMMMBOOOOO!!!!


http://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400974829


https://stats.nba.com/teams/defense/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1




























bob



.

k_j_88 wrote:Kyrie has been distributing, so I'm not sure what games you're looking at. The problem has been guys missing open shots and making bad passes. Kyrie has been unselfish and when we need points, he can go get them.


KJ

Phil,

I totally concur with your assessment of Kyrie. For a guard (call him a pt. guard if you need to pigeonhole) whose primary role is to score, he is leading the team in assists. I too am pleasantly surprised at his defensive efforts and results, particularly when defense, or the lack thereof was one of the criticisms of his game when he was traded to the C's. As much as I liked IT (a consensus fan favorite) his defensive shortcomings were mostly given a bye because of the successful impact on the other end. You can't teach size and length, which Kyrie has over IT. At this early stage of the season, defense has been ahead of offense. It will take a little longer for the offense to jell as the players are still getting acquainted with each other's preferences.

k_j_88 wrote:Kyrie has been distributing, so I'm not sure what games you're looking at. The problem has been guys missing open shots and making bad passes. Kyrie has been unselfish and when we need points, he can go get them.


KJ

Ooops, sorry KJ, I meant to reply to Phil Pressey's post, but I also concur with your post. I'm still getting acquainted with the "ins and outs" of this forum.

Sandpd - Great minds think alike? The Celtics are a work in progress. Maybe Kyrie can become a total point guard. His development as a pg was perhaps stifled paired up with LeBron for quite a while.

Brad will figure it out. Kyrie Irving is a top player and will be out there 40 minutes for playoffs. There is plenty of time for everything to click before the games actually count.

I thought he'd be a ball hog and play awful at defense. It's been the opposite. He's not James Harden or LeBron. He brings balance and superstar skills. One or two guys do not make a real team. Irving is trying to prove he can be a top dog on a winning team. I don't think he is worried about stats as much as wins and losses. He reminds me of Paul, Ray and KG sublimating for the greater good.

Joy. Joy. Joy. Whatever I said about Danny keeping Terry over Smart, forget it if Marcus keeps playing like this.

Tatum is more than the real deal. He is the real steal, away from Philly. Imagine that we got Jayson and the LA pick for next year. How incredible is that? Dare I say that Jayson looks even better than Paul did after the first six games in PP's NBA career? No, I dare not, because here are the stat comparisons:
Paul - 19 ppg - Jayson - 15.2 ppg
Paul - 13 assists - Jayson - 10
Paul - 12 TOV - Jayson - 11
Paul - 13 assists - Jayson - 10
Paul - 40 RB - Jayson - 38
Paul - 11 block - Jayson 5
Paul - 18 steals - Jayson - 6
Paul - 43.7 three point % - Jayson - 50.0%
Paul - .714 ft % - Jayson - .862%

Still, Jayson is damned close, and he is TWO YEARS YOUNGER than Paul was at this stage in their careers. What a catch!

Jaylen did not play well on offense, but his D was good.

Baynes, another catch. Smart, tough b ball player. A steal from Detroit.

Theis - another steal for peanut$.

Kyrie - more than I hoped for. A great offensive talent, especially in the clutch, and much better than advertised on D.

You know...........having 2 point like guards out there at once can really spell trouble for a defending team verses having a traditional point guard/shooting guard combo.

Could be a new way of thinking about your back court and usage of players and gives your multiple options per player:

1) does he pass
2) does he shoot
3) does he drive
4) does he drive and pass

It cause big trouble for trying to defend 2 point guards at once.

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Bob

Great thorough post, on Jaylen, his defense was still very good, Waiters only had 2 FG's whole game, I hardly think that's torturing someone. There was even one breakaway where Jaylen caught up to Waiters and jumped on his shooting hand at the release, totally taking away a finish/lay up attempt. On the technical, the previous play Jaylen got hit as soon as he caught the ball going for a lay up attempt, it was easy to see his whole body get knocked off balance from the contact and no call. When he scored on the next possession, that's what he was griping about. I have no problem with him calling out the ref, it was easy to see how bad the previous non call was.

Tatum is a great young skilled offensive player, skilled beyond his years, who will only get better and better, Jaylen had a cold shooting night, but he never backs down from anyone and he will be fine in the long run IMHO. I expect a few more bad games, but the drive is there, I'm really not worried.

cow

cowens/oldschool wrote:Bob

Great thorough post, on Jaylen, his defense was still very good, Waiters only had 2 FG's whole game, I hardly think that's torturing someone. There was even one breakaway where Jaylen caught up to Waiters and jumped on his shooting hand at the release, totally taking away a finish/lay up attempt. On the technical, the previous play Jaylen got hit as soon as he caught the ball going for a lay up attempt, it was easy to see his whole body get knocked off balance from the contact and no call. When he scored on the next possession, that's what he was griping about. I have no problem with him calling out the ref, it was easy to see how bad the previous non call was.

Tatum is a great young skilled offensive player, skilled beyond his years, who will only get better and better, Jaylen had a cold shooting night, but he never backs down from anyone and he will be fine in the long run IMHO. I expect a few more bad games, but the drive is there, I'm really not worried.

cow

Cow,

Waiters was 2-8 for the game.  He hit a 3 with 10:20 in the 1st (1:40 into the game) and he hit his 2nd, and last, fgm @ 9:43 in the 1st.  Jaylen was guarding him the whole time.  So, whatever Dion did he did right out of the gate with Jaylen on him.  Smart entered the game @ 7:47 in the 1st, replacing Jaylen.  At that point Waiters had 5 points on 2-3, 1 rebound, 1TO.  Waiters only had 5 points for the game, so he was done scoring from there, but he took 5 more shots and was 0-5.  Jaylen was 0-1, 1 rebound, 1 TO and 2 fouls when he sat down.  I'm not tremendously down on Jaylen, but his last few games have not been of the same quality as his first few.  His frustration levels are obviously quite high, the T being evidence of this.  He's usually a pretty cool cookie but he was losing it a bit and I think it was more than just the previous play, it was his play overall that was pissing him off.  I'm not worried, long-term, about Jaylen either.  My comments are strictly for this game and looking back over the previous games to try to discern a pattern.

Tatum is smooth as silk.  In fact, I think an argument has been made that his game is reminiscent of Jamaal "Silk" Wilkes (except that Tatum doesn't bring the ball all the way back behind his head when he shoots.  Never understood how Wilkes could do that as well as he did).  I am usually quite sanguine about rookies.  I expect them to screw up, I expect them to get bad calls but Jayson Tatum has VERY pleasantly surprised me.  If Jaylen Brown is a cool cookie then Jayson Tatum is a frozen Milky Way bar.



bob



.

bobheckler wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:Bob

Great thorough post, on Jaylen, his defense was still very good, Waiters only had 2 FG's whole game, I hardly think that's torturing someone. There was even one breakaway where Jaylen caught up to Waiters and jumped on his shooting hand at the release, totally taking away a finish/lay up attempt. On the technical, the previous play Jaylen got hit as soon as he caught the ball going for a lay up attempt, it was easy to see his whole body get knocked off balance from the contact and no call. When he scored on the next possession, that's what he was griping about. I have no problem with him calling out the ref, it was easy to see how bad the previous non call was.

Tatum is a great young skilled offensive player, skilled beyond his years, who will only get better and better, Jaylen had a cold shooting night, but he never backs down from anyone and he will be fine in the long run IMHO. I expect a few more bad games, but the drive is there, I'm really not worried.

cow

Cow,

Waiters was 2-8 for the game.  He hit a 3 with 10:20 in the 1st (1:40 into the game) and he hit his 2nd, and last, fgm @ 9:43 in the 1st.  Jaylen was guarding him the whole time.  So, whatever Dion did he did right out of the gate with Jaylen on him.  Smart entered the game @ 7:47 in the 1st, replacing Jaylen.  At that point Waiters had 5 points on 2-3, 1 rebound, 1TO.  Waiters only had 5 points for the game, so he was done scoring from there, but he took 5 more shots and was 0-5.  Jaylen was 0-1, 1 rebound, 1 TO and 2 fouls when he sat down.  I'm not tremendously down on Jaylen, but his last few games have not been of the same quality as his first few.  His frustration levels are obviously quite high, the T being evidence of this.  He's usually a pretty cool cookie but he was losing it a bit and I think it was more than just the previous play, it was his play overall that was pissing him off.  I'm not worried, long-term, about Jaylen either.  My comments are strictly for this game and looking back over the previous games to try to discern a pattern.

Tatum is smooth as silk.  In fact, I think an argument has been made that his game is reminiscent of Jamaal "Silk" Wilkes (except that Tatum doesn't bring the ball all the way back behind his head when he shoots.  Never understood how Wilkes could do that as well as he did).  I am usually quite sanguine about rookies.  I expect them to screw up, I expect them to get bad calls but Jayson Tatum has VERY pleasantly surprised me.  If Jaylen Brown is a cool cookie then Jayson Tatum is a frozen Milky Way bar.



bob



.

okay so Waiters hit a 3 and scored on a drive.

Pierce scored 42 on the Lakers in the famous game that Shaq gave him the nickname the Truth, that's torturing !!

2 FG's is not torturing to me and most people....sorry

And Jaylen played good D the next 3 quarters.

worcester wrote:And Jaylen played good D the next 3 quarters.

exactly no defender stops everything, I've been impressed with Jaylens defense the whole year.

jrleftfoot wrote:I`m watching the games where Kyrie is averaging less than 6 assists per game while turning it over 3 times, shooting below 42 percent from the field and 32 from 3, a result of frequently forcing his shot. I`m watching the times where the play  clock runs down while he dribbles around. I was watching the game last night, where Stevens put the ball in Smart`s hands to get more ball movement . I`m not sure why you feel the necessity of being snide, k_j. Apparently we have a different opinion of Kyrie`s point guard bona fides, a skill set he himself has said he needs to work on because he had a different role in Cleveland. I`m watching the same games you are and seeing things differently. It happens.

Yeah, he's averaging 2.8 turnovers a game, but he leads the team in steals at 2.33 per game. That (to an extent) negates the turnovers. It also means that his defense is better than advertised. We were told that Kyrie's defense would be no better than IT's, but that has definitely not been the case.

Not only that but Kyrie is leading the team with 5.7 APG. It's not a great number, but it's solid. It's also indicative of a few things:

-The offense has yet to truly flow. The scoring has been lower because there isn't consistent motion to the offense. Guys end up just standing around, or they make bad passes. I'm seeing a lot of wide open shots that aren't dropping. When Kyrie gets the ball back with 5-8 seconds left, he kind of has no choice but to improvise. As BobH already mentioned, guys have shown reluctance in shots and defer to watching Kyrie's late shot clock heroics. It's not a good trend.

-This team does not have a designated point guard. Smart and Rozier also have ballhandling responsibilities. Horford makes passes to the cutter, also. Baynes is a solid passer, too. Or maybe Jaylen/Tatum swing the ball to the open man. I mention this so we can consider the fact that Brad is running a motion offense. Kyrie can make a pass, but other guys will make passes, too. And maybe those passes lead to the assists instead.

I honestly think that the criticisms of Kyrie have been quite ridiculous. At first, people say he's not doing enough on offense and needs to be the superstar that everyone is expecting. Next, he's supposedly a ballhog that needs to play within the system. Can people make up their minds?

He's a player that can do both. He can make the necessary pass and he can hit buckets in crunch time. I seriously doubt that Kyrie is the selfish player that people have been painting him as. On numerous occasions I've watched him hit the open man for a pass but they didn't knock down the shot. How is that his fault?

He's been trying to find his way within the offense. After 6 games, he still has a ways to go but so far he's been impressive.

Either way, Steven's will get these issues on offense cleaned up. The ball movement will be more precise, and once the team builds more cohesive chemistry, the offense is going to be beautiful. The team is only averaging 20.8 assists per game. We need that number to go up significantly.


KJ

Kyrie`s defense is markedly better than it was at Cleveland. Offensively, he is pretty much the same player he was there, a high volume, mediocre percentage  scorer. He`s great at improvising when a play breaks down, not so great at keeping the ball moving. Everybody loses assists to missed shots. Is there any reason to believe that , throughout his career , he`s been victimized more by poor shooting teammates than others? He`s a very good player, primarily because of his excellent finishing skills. Everybody is subject to criticism , whether a particular poster thinks it is "ridiculous" or not. Most of the board members are more enamored of Irving than I am . So be it. I`m rooting for him and I certainly hope he improves  his field goal and three point percentages.

Phil Pressey wrote:

The big huge center is going the way of the dinosaur. Maybe the traditional point guard is losing its historical definition over time as teams start to whip the ball around and not rely on a Rondo to hold everyone's hand and do all that sort of dirty work of the classic point guard.

Yes, very astute. I loved Rondo for his uncanny vision, but that style of play is inefficient. Note also that Rondo was at his most efficient early in his career, when he still deferred to Pierce, Garnett, and Allen. Will be interesting to see how Chris Paul works out in Houston and what his legacy will be.

That being said, I'm with Jrleftfoot on some things - Kyrie does have a tendency to get down low and over dribble while the shot clock winds down. We all ooh and ah when he bails himself out by hitting a tough shot, but that's no way to win in the long run. Kyrie is an awesome player. One of the best one on one players I have seen. But that doesn't make him immune to criticism of other aspects of his game.[/quote]

jrleftfoot wrote:Kyrie`s defense is markedly better than it was at Cleveland. Offensively, he is pretty much the same player he was there, a high volume, mediocre percentage  scorer. He`s great at improvising when a play breaks down, not so great at keeping the ball moving. Everybody loses assists to missed shots. Is there any reason to believe that , throughout his career , he`s been victimized more by poor shooting teammates than others? He`s a very good player, primarily because of his excellent finishing skills. Everybody is subject to criticism , whether a particular poster thinks it is "ridiculous" or not. Most of the board members are more enamored of Irving than I am . So be it. I`m rooting for him and I certainly hope he improves  his field goal and three point percentages.

jrleftfoot

I looked at Kyrie's career stats and find it somewhat perplexing that anyone would characterize him as a mediocre percentage scorer.

Last year he averaged 25.2 PPG and shot 47% from the field and 40% from behind the arc . He shot 91% from the line. His career stats are 21.6 PPG, .456% on field goals, .382% from deep and 87.4% from the line.

I think his shooting through 6 games has not been good but I think his career numbers are more indicative of his shooting ability and those do not appear to be mediocre by any stretch of the imagination.

dboss

jrleftfoot wrote:Kyrie`s defense is markedly better than it was at Cleveland. Offensively, he is pretty much the same player he was there, a high volume, mediocre percentage  scorer. He`s great at improvising when a play breaks down, not so great at keeping the ball moving. Everybody loses assists to missed shots. Is there any reason to believe that , throughout his career , he`s been victimized more by poor shooting teammates than others? He`s a very good player, primarily because of his excellent finishing skills. Everybody is subject to criticism , whether a particular poster thinks it is "ridiculous" or not. Most of the board members are more enamored of Irving than I am . So be it. I`m rooting for him and I certainly hope he improves  his field goal and three point percentages.

I think you're missing my points.

1) I'm speaking of specific criticisms centered around playing within a system versus taking over a game. No, he didn't have a great shooting night, but BobH already posted his stats. During crunch time, he shot a higher percentage than he did during the 1st half.

2) Obviously everyone that plays misses shots, but you're missing my point. His assist numbers would be higher, and you're also not taking into account the system that Stevens is running. We aren't looking at the 2007-08 Celtics with a dedicated point guard averaging 10+ assists. It's a motion offense. Therefore, we don't need Kyrie to average 10 assists per game because down the line, assists are going elsewhere due to ball movement.

3) Did I say he should be immune to criticism? No. I simply said the current criticisms have been ridiculous because they are contradictory. Do we want him to always play within the system strictly as a distributor? I'm sure he could do that because he's a good enough passer. But this comes with a caveat. If we do demand this of him, we no longer have the justification in criticizing him if he doesn't average more than 25 PPG. Like I said before, he's capable of doing both. This is instrumental because not every game will be the same. The offense is not always going to be hitting on all cylinders. Maybe we'll need Kyrie to improvise to get us points when necessary.


KJ

After watching Brad Stevens for four years and reading some related articles, it seems clear that some general factors are in play.

The best players get the minutes (similar to Doc)
Team system has ball moving around
It gets real simple. Shoot, pass or drive towards the hoop.
Players tend to stick to the system, but sometimes the system adjusts to the players. (e.g. Evan Turner)
Stevens is a basketball savant. Players love playing for him.
Players are encouraged to do what they do best.
Players can take off up the court on rebounds. (e.g. Horford)


There are no more Perks or Jason Collins almost forcing a four on five for offense. There don't seem to be many on the roster like Bass or Crowder. While they weren't of the stone hands variety and could hit jumpers, otherwise they were a momentum stopper on offense.

Kyrie is a sure thing. Every player has flaws including LeBron. We have Larkin who is more of a pure point guard if it's just not happening with Smart, Rozier and Kyrie.

I thought Baynes would be slower, but he seems fast enough. Horford seems faster.

Brad is old school college and the opposite of jaded loving big paychecks. KG and Pierce showed a boyish innocence, a not just showing up attitude. I look forward to seeing how Kyrie ends up. He  didn't seem to mind letting others bring the ball up last night. He seems to have a love for the game. I thought he'd be a diva, but it looks to me that he and Horford are very happy and psyched about the young players and are having a lot of fun while tightening their games, becoming a team.

I hate diva players. I like seeing LeBron's lousy championship record. If we can't make it to the Finals, I hope he does and loses again. Although it'd be tough to root against Isaiah if he makes it back and Golden State is not easy to root for either. I'd have to weigh my hatred for LeBron with my love for I.T..

jrleftfoot wrote:Kyrie`s defense is markedly better than it was at Cleveland. Offensively, he is pretty much the same player he was there, a high volume, mediocre percentage  scorer. He`s great at improvising when a play breaks down, not so great at keeping the ball moving. Everybody loses assists to missed shots. Is there any reason to believe that , throughout his career , he`s been victimized more by poor shooting teammates than others? He`s a very good player, primarily because of his excellent finishing skills. Everybody is subject to criticism , whether a particular poster thinks it is "ridiculous" or not. Most of the board members are more enamored of Irving than I am . So be it. I`m rooting for him and I certainly hope he improves  his field goal and three point percentages.

jrleftfoot,

I'm not quite sure I know or understand what, by your definition, is a “high volume, mediocre percentage scorer”, or put in another way, what, by your criteria, is a decent or good “high volume percentage scorer”.

E.G., Isaiah Thomas' career FG% is .443, Paul Pierce' career FG% was .445, and Stephan Curry's career FG% is .475. Would you say that they are/were “high volume, mediocre percentage scorers too? Kyrie Irving's career FG% is .456.

Yes, everybody is subject to criticism, but not unfair criticism. Case in point, there were some posters who criticized Kyrie for a lack of court vision and not finding the open man – I bite my tongue.  Kyrie is leading the C's in assists; unless my eyes were deceiving me, I thought he found the open man more times than not in last night's game. So, we ought to give credit to players where credit it is due and not be too critical with a jaundiced eye.

Initially, I was a bit skeptical about how Kyrie would fit in with the C's when the C's traded for him. Granted, it's still early in the season, but his playing so far has alleviated any trepidation that I may have had that he would be a KoMe-like player who hogs the ball. I'm not an all out Kyrie Irving fan, yet, but his overall play and earnest attempt to work within Brad's system may eventually win me over. Besides, he fessed up that his prior statements about the earth being flat was just a ruse.