Doc Rivers Must Feel Foolish For Leaving Boston

by **Phil Pressey** Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:38 am

In year two of the rebuild, Brad Stevens made the playoffs. I won't relist everything that happened. Everyone here has been following the Celtics closely for many years.

Doc didn't want to go through a rebuild.

He has totally tanked his legacy.

Is Austin Rivers any good or is his contract and playing time nepotism at its most blatant?

Maybe he's good. I remember he was awful.

It's just interesting to me. People say we must wait years to see who won the Kyrie trade. I think years have passed and Doc Rivers obviously messed up.

"Austin Rivers delivers expletive-laden rant to fan"

This is probably not good for the Laker pick, but the Clippers have hit an iceberg and are sinking fast.

Meanwhile, the Celtics are competing for a title in year five of the rebuild. This is Peter Best territory.

The above video shows that Austin Rivers doesn't have the right temperament to be a good player, imho.

This video below is good. The kid is amazed that the C's got Tatum and a draft pick from Philly.

I am not expecting the Lakers pick. If it happens, of course that would be huge and probably ensure a title. No GM could ruin it from that point after all Danny has done. Maybe Doc could or the Billy King GM.

He says the Celtics are the future of the NBA. I say the future is now. I guess a big what if is what if Doc had stayed with the Brooklyn trade still happening? Back to speculating. It can never be known. Rivers messed up. I'm not trying to put salt in his wounds, but he's a basketball loser. Thanks for coaching 2008. He was okay. That roster was stacked. I don't see many coaches losing with KG, Paul and Ray plus other very good players that year.

I look at what he did with the Clippers. He was a narcissist and it backfired.

He can get a job on t.v. with Barkley and talk about losing a lot of playoff games. Maybe he'll get canned and somehow end up as coach for LeBron if he bolts as expected by some at least. That is all. Talking basketball is kind of fun especially when it's about winning. I hate to gloat, but it is what it is looking at what has become of Coach Benedict Arnold.

Doc should have retired, stayed or done t.v..

by **Phil Pressey** Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:06 am

For the big old-school arguments, I was Tony Allen over Marquis Daniels, definitely pro-Rondo, anti-Doc, pro-Perk, pro-Olynyk, pro-Baynes over Morris, tentatively or what the heck I am now 100% pro-Marcus Smart.

I ended up despising Zeller's game.

I was anti-Turner until that half year which won him the big contract. I went from anti-Bass to pro-Bass, liked Humphries and Wallace.

PJ Brown made such a big difference to title #17. I hope Danny can find another center like him off the scrap heap or trade. Baynes is a bit bulky for the modern game, although he looks deceptively fast if that's possible and he must intimidate anyone coming near the paint. He grabs the rebounds.

I'm feeling it for this year. Horford seems faster. He's gone from Average Al to a Tim Duncan/KG hybrid.

Morris, Smart and Theis look like sure things for a solid bench. I'm not giving up on Rozier. He's the sort of cheaper talent Danny needs to turn into Crowders and Turners, the overachievers. The winners. Not the best talent, but they learn the skills. They are competent and fit in. The James Posey's. Eddie House filling it up. 2008 was great and then another curse, KG with the major injury. Alas, now is looking good and hopefully no more curses. Nothing but blessings.

by **kdp59** Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:49 am

I was never a big Doc fan myself, I think the team won despite him in many instances to be honest.

But Doc did what he felt was best for him, you have to remember he was given not only the coating job with the LAC but also had authority on players and such (Sorry I can't remember what the title was). Either way he was going to team that was giving him more power AND they were a contender at the time.

now things have changed.

he is only the coach there now, as his other powers have been taken away this off-season and the team has aged.

I think Doc will leave after this season ( if not during) as he doesn't see himself as a HC who needs to go through a rebuild. He thinks too highly of his skills or where his really falls as a HC to me. But what do I know.

he may not find that "fit" once he leaves LA though and could be done as a HC just as easily.

by **wideclyde** Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:48 am

I disagree with the original premise of this thread that Doc Rivers feels foolish for leaving Boston.

He left because he got a chance to completely control a franchise of his own, in my opinion. He was never going to be able to "buy the groceries" in Boston, and this has to be a challenge that makes guys like Rivers (organized, competitive and ego driven) hearts jump. Especially when it was clear that the Cs were embarking on a total rebuild.

It has turned out (with many of his own) mistakes, injuries and Paul's departure that the Clippers may now be heading toward the dreaded re-build, but he could not have anticipated such a turn of events.

When he left Boston, the Clippers had a veteran team (Paul and two other all star players, a fairly deep bench, etc) that was already in the playoffs about every year. He had to think at that time that he had the answers to putting that franchise over the top. Such thoughts are definitely part of what drives all professional coaches, and Rivers cannot be blamed for this type of thinking.

Doc certainly had some quirks in his coaching style that can and have been debated here forever, but we all loved Rivers for winning #17 in 2008, and he also saved us some coaching salary money as well as will bring us a first round draft pick upon leaving.

by **dboss** Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:27 am

I do not know if he is feeling foolish. He got a great job and got paid big dough.

I am pretty sure he underestimated the ability of Danny Ainge to rebuild so decisively.

Overall I never liked Doc because he always favored the vets even when they did not play well and he publicly made negative comments about players. He made excuses when Boston went on that historic losing streak and blamed it on young players instead of bad coaching.

If he thinks going through an extended rebuild is too painful just think about Celtics fans and how they have had to deal with dark times.

I was extremely pleased when his self-interests led him away to the Clippers (A team with a history of failure) And since he was both coach and decision maker he has no one to blame but himself.

dboss

by **mrkleen09** Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:45 am

Wow, yeah totally reject the premise of this thread and am surprised to read it on a site of so called educated Celtics fans.

First and foremost, Boston is a city centered around loyalty and respect. Doc did a lot (note A LOT) for the city of Boston. He was very active in the community, with charity work and giving of his time. He took the Celtics from the dark days of Rick Pitino and Jim O'Brien - and gave them credibility and stature and made us Celtics fans feel good about ourselves. He is THIRD on the all time Celtics win list behind Red and Tommy. He worked hard to keep Paul Pierce happy in the face of some pretty awful seasons. This was by far the biggest factor in the Celtics winning in 2008. No Pirece = No Garnett = No Allen = NO TITLE.

Speaking of which - Doc Rivers is a champion. Forever in history, he is at the center of that 2008 team - a team that made two more legit runs. No one here can diminish the job he did.

To take proven stars like that and forge an atmosphere of each giving a little for the better of the team is not easy to do. He did it. He took the team to Rome and turned into from players into brothers. He had people like Perk and Rondo who would run through the wall for him. And he stood up for his players with the league, the refs, management, media.

Doc already paid his dues PRIOR to the 2008 season. He did his time during a 'rebuild', he had no obligation to anyone to sit through another tear it down to the ground project and has NOTHING to be ashamed of.

Sad to read this thread - really shows a lack of respect for one of our greatest coaches and an even better person.

by **dboss** Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:00 am

mrkleen09 wrote:Wow, yeah totally reject the premise of this thread and am surprised to read it on a site of so called educated Celtics fans.

First and foremost, Boston is a city centered around loyalty and respect. Doc did a lot (note A LOT) for the city of Boston. He was very active in the community, with charity work and giving of his time. He took the Celtics from the dark days of Rick Pitino and Jim O'Brien - and gave them credibility and stature and made us Celtics fans feel good about ourselves. He is THIRD on the all time Celtics win list behind Red and Tommy. He worked hard to keep Paul Pierce happy in the face of some pretty awful seasons. This was by far the biggest factor in the Celtics winning in 2008. No Pirece = No Garnett = No Allen = NO TITLE.

Speaking of which - Doc Rivers is a champion. Forever in history, he is at the center of that 2008 team - a team that made two more legit runs. No one here can diminish the job he did.

To take proven stars like that and forge an atmosphere of each giving a little for the better of the team is not easy to do. He did it. He took the team to Rome and turned into from players into brothers. He had people like Perk and Rondo who would run through the wall for him. And he stood up for his players with the league, the refs, management, media.

Doc already paid his dues PRIOR to the 2008 season. He did his time during a 'rebuild', he had no obligation to anyone to sit through another tear it down to the ground project and has NOTHING to be ashamed of.

Sad to read this thread - really shows a lack of respect for one of our greatest coaches and an even better person.

Kleen

Why the hell would you feel sad because of criticism about Doc Rivers? Yes doc did win a title as a coach and I am sure he is a really good person. No one can deny that.

But no one can deny that Danny Ainge is the one who put the team together and no one can deny that it was Kevin Garnett that was the center of the 2008 championship.

Doc made his decision to leave because he did not want to go through another rebuilding project. He may have been fired in 2007 by most GM's. Losing 18 straight games was the worst for any prior Celtics coach. And let's not forget he lost 19 straight coaching Orlando in the 2003-2004 season. So Danny and the Celtics were loyal to him but he was loyal to his own self interests. Those self-interests have come back and bit him on the ass. So Celtics fans may take amusement in what has transpired.

When he went to the Clippers he said it was the most talented group of players he ever had. To me that was a slap in the face to the teams that he had in Boston. He is the type of coach that looks to place the blame on someone else.

dboss

by **mrkleen09** Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:20 am

I feel sad because people are so quick to forget in sports. Sure Coaches and players make a lot of money, but they are people too - and Doc Rivers is one of the good guys in the NBA. Always has been. Its the same way I feel when people booed Jacoby Ellsbury or Johnny Damon after they helped bring World Series to town. Ungrateful fans are the worst.

Doc Rivers coached here in Boston for 9 years, a couple of those years he was given Paul Pierce and a bag of balls. He had seasons of 33 and 24 wins and still finished with 416 wins. NINE YEARS in one city - including 2012 and 2013 when it was clear the rebuild was in full swing and yet he was only here for his own "self interest"? Give me a break -this is utter drivel.

When he went to the Clippers, what did you expect him to say? That the Clippers were ok but Celtics were still the best team he ever coached? Are you seriously that unaware of PR ?

Whatever your perception is of the guy, the reality in no way support your position. Doc Rivers is a guest on KG's talk show more than once a month and has appeared with Pierce, Rondo and Perk more than once.

by **cowens/oldschool** Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:44 am

2012 and 2013 we were on borrowed time and the full rebuild hadn’t started yet. I will give Doc credit for 12, that was a great run with injuries to AB and Jeff Green and no Perk. That was his best coaching IMHO, however he choose to leave and got the title he wanted and now his franchise is in tatters and that’s on him, he was in charge of the roster, etc. I’m kinda glad he’s gone as everything Stevens has done seems to be so right and he’s definitely better at developing young players within his system.

by **beat** Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:59 am

Doc is history here why does it matter now?

Got a title..... with a little better health could have had 1 or 2 more. Since Red there’s only been a couple coaches here to win more than one title so he’d have been in pretty good company with Russ Tommy and KC.

I don’t think he regrets much of anything that happened here.

beat

by **bobheckler** Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:12 pm

I, for one, have no hard feeling towards Doc.

1. We won a Championship with him after many, many years of wandering in the desert like the ancient Israelites. How much of that was because of him is irrelevant, in my opinion. He was the Head Coach of a Championship team and nobody can ever take that away from him.

2. He went through one brutal rebuild. He earned a parachute.

3. He wanted to go from a team rebuilding to a team that was already built to contend. Can't blame someone for that. Winners like to win and will go where they can win. Paul Pierce quietly gave Danny and Wyc an ultimatum in the summer of 2007, "either build a winner around me or trade me while I still have good value". The rest is history but let's not forget that Paul Pierce was ready to move on because he wanted to win too.

4. He said the Clips were the most talented team he has ever coached. I am 100% firmly behind MrKleen on this. OF COURSE that's what Doc would say, and should say. If Brad went to another team (God Forbid!) I'd expect him to talk about how great the bunch of players he has there are too.

5. People say Doc was too sweet on his veterans and didn't play his youth enough. Those people forget that Rondo was a 2nd year player when he started for a championship team in 2007-2008. They forget about Delonte West, Al Jefferson, Sully, Tony Allen, Avery Bradley starting when Ray Allen was injured and was never benched when Ray came back, and Big Baby.

If I have one problem with Doc it's the sniping that was going on while a deal with the Clippers was being negotiated and I can't blame that all on Doc. It takes two to tango and Danny was running his mouth more than usual too. Once the deal was done and Doc had moved on he has since said many good things about Boston, Celtic fans and the organization. When Pierce came back to Boston for his final game, as a Clipper, and we gave him the ovation we gave him, Doc told Blake Griffin that was the difference between the Boston Celtics and their fans and every other franchise and their fans in the NBA. That's strong.

We look at Marcus Smart (whom we got because Danny gutted the team in the Brooklyn trade), Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum and Kyrie Irving (whom we got because we had Brooklyn's 2018 pick) and think Danny's a genius but I remember a lot of people, back when the trade was announced, who ran Danny down because of his lack of loyalty to Pierce and KG. Well, if all's well that ends well then Doc's departure begat Brad Stevens. Anybody seeing that as a downgrade now? If not, then all's well that ended well with that too.

bob

.

by **mulcogiseng** Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:39 pm

I was never a big Doc fan but I was a fan. In point of fact, I clearly remember many people complaining that Doc didn't play the young players enough. Rondo should have played much more that first year. Hindsight revisionism be damned! No Rondo No championship! Period! For me, what Doc did best, was bring the concept of Ubuntu to our knowledge. He gave his team a concept to hang their aspirations on, and it worked.

I hate signing contracts and I hate it even more when I am forced to abide by the terms of the contract for the duration. Doc knew the direction the team was headed yet he signed the contract anyway. So he doesn't get a pass from me on that. What does make a difference to me is that Doc left and Danny used it to get more assets which brings us to today. Anyone doubt that the most important asset Danny acquired in losing Doc is Brad?

Thanx for the memories Doc. But your Clippers experience is your true legacy and testament to your ability as a coach. You were always a better broadcaster. You have a future and so does your ego. seeyalaterbye

by **mrkleen09** Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:44 pm

Let me also preface, this thread isnt about Doc vs Brad....so I also agree with Bob and Cow that Stevens, not Rivers is the right man for the job as currently constituted.

I dont think Doc would be getting the same results as Brad over the last 3 years. But I also dont see Stevens coaching KG, Ray and Pierce and getting the same results as Doc. Horses for courses.

I think he gets there in the end, as I think Brad is a transformative talent. But until Stevens wins a ring, gets close at least two other times and logs in with more than 400 wins - he has a ways to go to match Doc.

by **NYCelt** Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:26 pm

bobheckler wrote:I, for one, have no hard feeling towards Doc.

1. We won a Championship with him after many, many years of wandering in the desert like the ancient Israelites. How much of that was because of him is irrelevant, in my opinion. He was the Head Coach of a Championship team and nobody can ever take that away from him.

2. He went through one brutal rebuild. He earned a parachute.

3. He wanted to go from a team rebuilding to a team that was already built to contend. Can't blame someone for that. Winners like to win and will go where they can win. Paul Pierce quietly gave Danny and Wyc an ultimatum in the summer of 2007, "either build a winner around me or trade me while I still have good value". The rest is history but let's not forget that Paul Pierce was ready to move on because he wanted to win too.

4. He said the Clips were the most talented team he has ever coached. I am 100% firmly behind MrKleen on this. OF COURSE that's what Doc would say, and should say. If Brad went to another team (God Forbid!) I'd expect him to talk about how great the bunch of players he has there are too.

5. People say Doc was too sweet on his veterans and didn't play his youth enough. Those people forget that Rondo was a 2nd year player when he started for a championship team in 2007-2008. They forget about Delonte West, Al Jefferson, Sully, Tony Allen, Avery Bradley starting when Ray Allen was injured and was never benched when Ray came back, and Big Baby.

If I have one problem with Doc it's the sniping that was going on while a deal with the Clippers was being negotiated and I can't blame that all on Doc. It takes two to tango and Danny was running his mouth more than usual too. Once the deal was done and Doc had moved on he has since said many good things about Boston, Celtic fans and the organization. When Pierce came back to Boston for his final game, as a Clipper, and we gave him the ovation we gave him, Doc told Blake Griffin that was the difference between the Boston Celtics and their fans and every other franchise and their fans in the NBA. That's strong.

We look at Marcus Smart (whom we got because Danny gutted the team in the Brooklyn trade), Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum and Kyrie Irving (whom we got because we had Brooklyn's 2018 pick) and think Danny's a genius but I remember a lot of people, back when the trade was announced, who ran Danny down because of his lack of loyalty to Pierce and KG. Well, if all's well that ends well then Doc's departure begat Brad Stevens. Anybody seeing that as a downgrade now? If not, then all's well that ended well with that too.

bob

.

Doc Rivers Must Feel Foolish For Leaving Boston Thumbs11

by **Phil Pressey** Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:55 pm

Mr. Kleen, I'm a bit disappointed to see you throw a few unnecessary mean-spirited comments towards me.

"am surprised to read it on a site of so called educated Celtics fans."

"Sad to read this thread - really shows a lack of respect for one of our greatest coaches and an even better person."

"Ungrateful fans are the worst."

I have included more often than I wanted phrases such as my opinion. These are my opinions, etc.. I am not trying to force feed beliefs onto others. I somehow enjoy writing out my own.

Maybe foolish was the wrong way to frame the title. Does he regret it? Is he jealous?

Let me also preface, this thread isnt about Doc vs Brad....so I also agree with Bob and Cow that Stevens, not Rivers is the right man for the job as currently constituted.

I dont think Doc would be getting the same results as Brad over the last 3 years. But I also dont see Stevens coaching KG, Ray and Pierce and getting the same results as Doc. Horses for courses.

I think he gets there in the end, as I think Brad is a transformative talent. But until Stevens wins a ring, gets close at least two other times and logs in with more than 400 wins - he has a ways to go to match Doc.

This thread did contain Doc versus Brad. I specifically wondered out loud what would have happened if Doc had stayed for the rebuild.

And I doubt Brad would have had any difficulty leading the C's to the title in 2008. I think that team was symbolic of the old debate of whether NBA coaches are that big of a factor. Maybe as a rookie coach Brad would have had issues, but I don't know and that wouldn't be a fair argument. Doc had already been coaching quite a while. So Brad would deserve a few years under his belt too for the hypothetical thought exercise.

The league seems to be changing in which coaches now have a greater impact. The big bruising center is going the way of the dinosaur, and perhaps too are the zen coaches whose greatest attribute was keeping big egos happy.

Few may like to consider the adage it's not what you know or can do but who you know which matters. It's called nepotism.

Is Ty Lue a great coach or was he lucky? He's obviously a winner for eternity based on an arbitrary definition.

The 2008 Celtics had three hall of famers including two shooting studs and one of the greatest players of all time in KG for a big man who was still in his prime.

That is the crux of the debate. Because if you take away 2008, how would Rivers be perceived? It can't be taken away, nor can all those losses in road games in the first two playoff series. It finally clicked because the roster was stacked. Doc deserves credit because he was the coach, but the debate has always centered on whether most coaches would have won it all with the same players.

I lay off of Isaiah for the most part because his sister died and he has some bad luck with a hip condition putting his overall future in doubt.

By the way, I don't believe in blind loyalty and respect. It is to be earned over time.

"Boston is a city centered around loyalty and respect."

Loyalty and respect to one person may represent nepotism and corruption to others.

I won't go down your path and return volley with similar arm-chair psychology and put-downs.

I didn't see much conviviality in your comments.

The Rondo debates used to piss me off. I was pro-Rondo. When Scal last year or so made a statement about his genius at basketball, I liked that. But bitter Rondo haters had their right to say he was a ball hog diva or whatever.

The same cycle repeats itself. I think people should be able to say what they think without fear of walking on eggshells. As long as folks discuss plus or minus with Doc, DeMarcus Cousins?, Morris, Smart, Olynyk, et al without attacking the poster, but rather the ideas, then I don't see any tension.

It was in the early a.m. and I had just seen the Austin Rivers clip. I also watched the other video. I am not one to scout future players, so I have no clue whether the Laker/Sac pick will pan out or how.

I look at is as a Greek tragedy in terms of Doc Rivers. I don't hate him. I'm not succumbed with hysterical, maniacal dr. evil grinning at his demise.

I just find it very interesting how everything Danny and Doc have done since breaking up has gone the opposite of what was expected.

Brooklyn did not look like they were going to hit an iceberg or at least not until the draft picks had already been selected.

Doc went for the easier path. Yes, he got more power, more Tuna buying of groceries, and that probably also produces what ifs. What if Doc had been coach of the Clippers and they also had one of the better GM's? Maybe the Clippers would have won a title or two. They were definitely stacked.

Another thing that makes it tough to respect Doc's decision is that it was already well-known that the Clippers' owner was racist and a bad guy.

by **k_j_88** Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:19 pm

Doc wasn't willing to rebuild. But he couldn't foresee what the Celtics were going to do. But let's keep something in perspective: there's no way in hell Rivers would have had the roster given to Stevens and made them as competitive. As far as I'm concerned, Doc leaving what the best thing that could have happened to this organization. We needed a forward thinker. Someone who operates on a higher level and can get the absolute most out of his players. Hiring Stevens may have been Danny's best move yet.

I'm also disregarding the notion that somehow Doc is a good coach. He's a motivator for veteran players. He doesn't coach guys up to exceed their previous limits. Stevens, on the other hand, does. Some say this isn't about Doc vs Stevens. But I think it's impossible, at this point, to look at one without the other considering the moves that were made and the results (Celtics fate vs Clippers fate).

Yeah, he won a title. I'm not taking that away from him. But I'm also a realist. To me, he's like a Steve Kerr, Phil Jackson, Tyronne Lue type of coach. His time came and went, and he's on his way out.

KJ

by **dboss** Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:05 pm

Some folks liked Doc but not me.

No need for anyone to be upset about differing opinions.

Thank goodness THE Yoyo Master left. Rejoice!

Dboss

by **mrkleen09** Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:38 pm

Phil

Let me begin by saying that I am sorry you feel that I personally insulted you as that was not my intent. I think most of us out here separate the debate from the personal. Many of us, including Sam and I - have all had good rails over the years - but if Cow or Bob or Dean or Rich called me tonight from Boston, I would be in my car in 5 minutes heading to help them in any way I could. Disagreements about the team NEVER supersede my love for board members here. I hope you can see that yourself over time.

But, when I see a thread with comments saying Doc was selfish, Doc's son is only in the NBA because of his influence, Doc only ever considered himself, and now - Doc willingly went to work for a racist. I am sorry, but I am going to call it like I see it. I can think your line of thinking here is off base, and even foolish - without thinking you are a fool.

I dont feel Doc needs me to defend him. He has long and well respected history as a player and coach to speak for him, so I will leave it here.

by **cowens/oldschool** Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:30 am

Phil I’ve met mrkleen a few times and I don’t think he meant anything personal towards you at all. Many of us have met a few times over the years and we all have our disagreements about certain basketball related issues and that’s part of the fun, proving what you believe. Sam wanted to do a playoff party in NYC in 09 and asked on the board for anyone that could volunteer to find a location? So Steve and I volunteered, I had never met him before and we checked out a bunch of locations together, then Kleen on the board recemmended a great location, a Boston sports bar in the East Village, Professor Thoms. I didn’t know places like this even existed, anyway we had a great time at this place and even had a Red tribute dinner in Chinatown the night before, I picked that joint cause I know food Lol. Anyway welcome to the family and maybe one of these years we’ll do another event.

by **kdp59** Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:01 am

I think we all agree that Austin is in the NBA because of his skills.

Many may feel his current contract is because of his father , however.

Signed 3-yr/$35M deal on Friday, July 8, 2016.

after never averaging even 10 point per game or even 24 minutes per game.

seems kinda high!!

by **Phil Pressey** Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:16 pm

No worries, Mr. Kleen. I felt obligated to defend myself in case I had just been labeled the worst Celtic fan ever.

The Doc Rivers debate is probably tapped out anyway.

I have a tendency to bring up old news that I missed. Big Baby went after Doc. I didn't know that or didn't know it was a big media scandal or what it was.

I now see Austin puts up some solid numbers, but so did Chris Ford the year or two before Larry Bird arrived. Ford was solid, but inflated stats on losing teams don't prove much.

On bad teams someone has to do something. Austin is maybe like Kyrie and needs to get away from persistent doubts. Some claimed Irving sucked when LeBron was out. Kyrie isn't all that. He can't play defense. He should bow and be grateful to King James. Observers may wonder if Austin could be a solid player on a good team when his father isn't the coach.

The Clipper collapse has happened very quickly. It looks like it's the final chapter.

Doc is perhaps a victim of a rapidly changing league. Perhaps he is the Hibbert or Perkins of coaches.

The Celtics may have broken basketball. It will take a few years to probably say yes or no, such and such happened. Best case scenario has the C's breaking basketball. They could become the Tiger Woods of hoops and then everyone else can gloat about making it to the second round or whatever goals scrub teams have, the way it seems to currently be with Golden State.

I'm sorry if I was offensive. I did go after Doc perhaps too hard. I went a bit too tabloid with it.

by **Phil Pressey** Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:53 pm

Thanks, Cowens. This has to be the best Celtics website. There's a good balance between the dreamers and realists. Sometimes it converges.

I will point out a bad call which helps the Celtics. I will attack Doc. Bogans is just too easy to scapegoat alone.

I think it's fun to offer blowhard statements. It becomes a Tommy Heinsohn army. But he makes a lot of good points. He is always on the pulse of individual players.

I'm starting to think Stevens is a mad genius. Say how he benched Morris but still gave him the most minutes. How he seems to unfairly diminish roles for Theis and Baynes. Like how he started Zeller and Lee. That he knew it would never last, but he had some other reason. Maybe my imagination is too active.

The way Doc instead of benching Ray played him with Avery and Rondo. How was that ever going to work?

But now Morris knows that there is no conspiracy to deny him his future. It's all about winning. The Celtic Tradition is to help one's teammates. It's a team game. Marcus Smart gets huge minutes off the bench. Maybe I am struggling to say Brad is no slouch either with being a friend/mentor Doc zen diva coach. And Brad was no slouch himself as a player in college. He didn't have the pro success Doc did, but it wasn't nothing. He was a decent player himself. That must help. Ainge was a player. Ainge is a hybrid of lucky and genius. I don't want to be blamed for a jinx job if things go sour, but I'm sensing the impending end of basketball history. This is someone pinch me, this can't be happening, but it is. Morris is KG's fire. Kyrie is the Pierce scorer. Tatum is Ray, quietly providing greatness. Smart fills the Posey glue role.

There isn't much room for error. Counting Semi, Brad is working with ten guys for the rotation. I see no minutes for Nader, Yabusele and Larkin except garbage time. It feels like the team is starting to finally gel. Yet, they are 21-4? I hope Ainge didn't do anything crazy like selling his soul.

I doubt Doc would have been leaning on Brown and Tatum. Smart would have been the starter with Morris. Baynes turns 31 in four days. I bet he and Horford would have already been run into the ground.

The first year would have been all Humphries, Wallace and Bass. Bogans would have started and played big minutes.

by **cowens/oldschool** Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:05 pm

Wow Phil your posts are all over the place!!

by **Phil Pressey** Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:01 pm

cowens/oldschool wrote:Wow Phil your posts are all over the place!!

This is true. I have the equivalent of basketball rabies. 21-4 has some side effects for the green-goggled.

Tatum nailing threes like ten footers has sent me over the edge. Or he cradles the ball like a football and lopes in for layups he never seems to miss.

Simmons and Philly can keep his triple doubles. The rookie of the year award is going to show how illogical those go. The MVP will go to Harden or Lebron. Kyrie might be the true MVP, but his stats won't look glamorous enough. Horford might be the MVP or having both Horford and Kyrie reduces both chances to win it. Was it Pierce or KG as MVP of the team? I'd say they were a two-headed monster impossible to separate. Lennon and McCartney.

I'm scrambling to find the holy grail of Celtics Pride.

All over the place. Yes, indeed.

by **cowens/oldschool** Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:21 am

I love the way Al is playing, but I don’t think he’s quite in the MVP conversation, he’s definitely skilled and plays good defense, but is not near KG’s level on defense, not a knock on him, KG’s defense was just that manic and dominant. Kyrie has really shocked the basketball world IMHO, no one knew he had such ability to make others better, than he was ever given credit for in Cleveland. Kyrie has the green light and he just routinely takes over in crunch time, and if you are open, he will get you the ball....I don’t know how much of this is Brad Stevens influence and system or Kyrie’s expansion of his game, probably both but Kyrie has to be given credit because he does the passing and pnr at a great level, he’s not Terry Rozier like as a passer. The fact that we lost our all star wing Hayward and Kyrie can lead and carry such a young team and his game is soo entertaining and dazzling, he’s got to be in the conversation....and he takes over in the clutch. This is why we will win more than 60 games this year, in a close game, who attacks and makes the right play better than Kyrie? and he has the pieces, as young as some might be to also be able to make the play/shot after he beats his man, which he does very routinely. Close games we have Kyrie and the system, Brads that are so good. Kyrie is just going to break you down and break you down, he’s relentless.

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