Now cometh the blame game.

jrleftfoot wrote:

swish wrote:

jrleftfoot wrote:Sometimes numbers are just numbers. We are obviously missing Smart, according to MY  lying eyes, no matter what the numbers say AND we need a knockdown shooter. And yes, we need to finish better at the rim. Baynes is abysmal in that category. Brown and Tatum are inconsistent finishers. Brown gets too fancy sometimes. Throw the hammer down! Tatum gets outmuscled by defenders and seldom gets a foul call. This team is not, as presently constituted a championship caliber team except in our green dreams.

    jrleftfoot,

 Your right  - stats do sometimes lie - as do eyes - but I do feel a little better when I can back up my eyeball opinions  with a fact or two.

  swish

I`m not saying stats aren`t helpful. Obviously,statistical analysis has become more and more critical in all team sports ,( especially baseball), in this computer age.Why is the three point shot being encouraged in basketball and swinging for the fences in baseball? Primarily, I think, because statistics indicate that that is the way to go--the same with the infield over-shifting in the big leagues. Your stats are much appreciated , swish, and have,more than once, convinced me that I was barking up the wrong tree. I think that sometimes , though , they are inadequate to tell the story. The Celtics have twice been beaten like whipped dogs in the last week,( by the Cavs on their own court)  and , whether or not they have the same winning percentage with and without Marcus Smart,   ( I am not sure if a large sample juxtaposed against a small one is actually statistically significant---I`ll leave that to you stat guys). I am of the belief that they would have competed much more valiantly, if that`s not too strong a word, with him in the rotation.

jrleftfoot

Your thoughts are well expressed - especially on a subject that is rather controversial. It is a small sample and I'm certain that we will have to wait a while before we can come to a conclusion as to whether the eyes or the stats get it right. There certainly is more than one way to view the Marcus issue - that's why we have opinion sites like this one. By the way - when I throw out a bunch of stats it's not intended to be argumentative - but just to broaden the view on the subject.

  swish

The Celtics need every rotation player to be healthy to truly compete. Even though Smart has stagnated on offense, he is still better than Larkin or Nader. Marcus Smart is missed. Larkin might have helped. The injury card is real.

My beef with Kyrie is he is not distributing the ball better. He needs to be more efficient with assists. I was running out of people to blame.

Smart and Morris are the easy targets. It's all well and good Morris put up some points, but he totally ruins any kind of flow to team offense. When he gets a pass, one can just see he has already shut off the other four players.

Brad is an interesting guy to question because he is a basketball genius. But could there be holes in his game? He's not a robot. I saw that the Celtics have an outstanding record when Baynes plays at least twenty minutes. Isaiah got mad after a game saying Brad sometimes experiments too much. Ojeleye got too many minutes against Cleveland? A few us were wondering where was Moose. I was under the impression that NBA players like continuity. They like to know when they are playing.

Brad Stevens tends to be proactive. I might not trust his attitude towards bigs and running games, but I'll still watch and root. The excessive threes started popping up a number of games ago. This has been building up. I wouldn't have booed, but I wouldn't have paid for a ticket to begin with.

There have been three or four massively disappointing, miserable signature losses.

A winning streak would shift everything back to the positive. If the Celtics can get its act together, sixty wins is still very possible. This is classic knee-jerking. Look at Cleveland. All of a sudden they are spun as basketball greatness. It's been two games. They beat a scrub team and then they caught the Celtics in a slump.

The sample size of the losing or mediocre stretch is too small. I also agree with KDP that 60% winning percentages for stretches are not bad.

The situation seems volatile. Basketball is a game of runs and momentum, good and bad. The Celtics need to peak in the playoffs, not now. I admit there are leaks needing patching on the duck boat.

How many teams have a puncher's chance against Golden State? The Celtics are still in this thing. The season drags for both fans and players. It wouldn't hurt if Brad added some wrinkles to the offense. Try a running attack. Maybe the young guys including Jaylen can improve their handles and pile up some points. Try a Sixties' styled Celtics running game. Stop being so predictable, Mr. Brad Stevens. The key is to get the other team off-balance.

Thanks, swish. Like I  said, the stats you ( and some others) provide are greatly appreciated by those of us, e.g. me, too lazy to do the research. I find all your posts interesting, whether I agree with them or not.Indeed, we`re here to discuss the Celtics , and this is by far the most rational sports message board I`ve ever observed , and the only one I participate in.

To be honest, I know some of those losses were so upsetting. My biggest disappointment is that, against Toronto and Cleveland, they had no fire in their bellies. I watched Morris just stand there and let James blow right by him, just looking like "oh what the hell I can't stop him anyway" attitude. That ticks me off.
Brown had a terrible game and I know that it must have haunted him that night. One thing I can say for the kid is he comes to play. He is still just a young player, so there will be days like this, but it should not have happened against Cleveland. He has shown he has no fear of James or any big player. I expect him to play much better tonight.
My small worry is Tatum. I was excited when he hit his first shot the other day. I thought that might stir him up a little, it just has to be tough to be 19 years old and have so much be expected of him. He shy's away from shooting once he misses a couple, passing the ball, sometimes even when he has an open shot. Youth...it will all work out....this kid has so much
talent.
I refuse to get down on this team. I can only hope for a small winning streak after the all star break that will revive them.
James is on a tear right now, the last thing I want is for him to overtake the Celtics in the second half. It is Toronto who is scary, but I have faith and so should you all. This has been a wild ride for the first half of the year.

Rosalie

I will forever hold out hope that Hayward will show up in the final games of the season and we will see just what we have to look forward to. I know that may be a pipe dream, but ...........
A girl can hope can't she???

The Celtics could lose every remaining game and still get the 8th slot.

Tonight is very important because it will define the team's atmosphere heading into eight days off.

It's like midway through the third down 20. Try to get it under ten for the fourth quarter and playoffs.

I do not count out much after witnessing Boston Red Sox 2004. One literally never knows.

I admit the general consensus is currently probable for the C's to get 55 wins and then lose to Toronto or Cleveland after round one or two.

But I am not so sure. Hayward could come back. Smart could erupt as a great two-way player after losing by TKO to a mirror.

This season is a moral victory no matter what. But it could be so much more tonight included.

It's just a slump. They are still missing a few key pieces, three really if Larkin is included. His assist to turnover stat history isn't too bad. These games could have been close, maybe Larkin helps win one or two. At least the atmosphere would be better.

There were too many games relying on Al Horford as point-Forward. Jaylen Brown was the pg for a five minute stretch. Rozier was put to the ultimate test.

Kyrie was hurt. He's been shaking off rust. It was a perfect storm of a slump, but I don't see it continuing for long.

As for Hayward, I think the team needs to show it is at the puncher's chance level to try him.

The C's as is, are not that good. That's the harsh reality.

They need Smart back and Brad has to put together the rotation. Swish is right. It's the start of the fourth quarter and the Celtics need to show they are more the team with the hot streak than this miserable, pitiful bunch of nice guys, but still losers.

Tonight is a good test. The Clippers aren't chopped liver. They aren't great either, so it will be clear whether the Celtics are still in a tailspin or moving forward positively with the NBA's 4th best record.

The C's have a four game lead in the loss column over Cleveland. I wouldn't chase Toronto, but for immediate concerns, get out of the slump and win the 2nd seed. Take it from there. By then it'll be clear whether Hayward is healed and also whether it's worth adding him anyway.

These are pure NBA dog days.

I never give up, you will learn that about me Phil. I have seen the best, the worst, the mediocre and I feel this team is closer to best than mediocre or worst. Just think, for the entire summer, after they signed Hayward, and then in August, Kyrie, they had game plans and plays set for those guys along with Al to carry the young guys along, let them grow slowly and explode next year. Well, that didn't happen. So they went on a false winning streak(if you know what I mean), and have been up an down since London.

Whether they decide to bring Hayward on or not (and I really am beginning to really listen to Brad when he says there are no plans), this team has done more than expected of them. The world came crashing down that night in Cleveland. Just think about the offense....wouldn't it be awesome with Hayward there. But, as they say, we may have to "wait until next year"

In the mean time we have to keep following these guys, cheering them on, and say a few prayers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi, Rosalie. I hope all is well.

Thanks for this comment. I was set on taking time off after last night, but I am the same type of fan like you. Too much has been invested to give up. It's the same with Marcus Smart. I was bracing for a trade of him or Terry.

You are so correct this team is much closer to the top than mediocre. It's called a team slump plus no Smart. I don't see anyone mentioning Larkin, but his loss also hurt.

His previous stint in Brooklyn had Shane averaging 4.4 assists to 1.9 turnovers in 22.5 minutes over 78 games.

I am also old-school. I don't fully understand "positionless basketball." All players have flaws. Even LeBron James. The best teams figure out how to get the best out of all teammates. That seems to be missing. I think it's what Celtics Pride means. But I definitely recall the idea of Celtics Tradition as one in which it's one for all, all for one.

The team is missing the little combos that developed in other years. Evan Turner-Olynyk helped each other. Rondo was splendid at doing the dirty work getting easy shots for the stars. I'm hoping that when Marcus Smart gets back, he goes back to being more of a distributor on offense. I think that is what the team is missing. Team play on offense.

Maybe I'm wrong.

I just don't see the point in giving up on the team. It's the easy way out to say this season was always going to be a bridge year, or at least without Hayward, and that anything extra would be gravy.

LeBron and the Cavs weren't winning 60+ games and still kept going back to the finals. The Celtics one Doc year played .500 ball for close to 2/3rds of the season, then flipped on the switch.

The problem this year is that the players are too young. They are still building the switch. Horford has a switch, but it wasn't working last night.

I think the team deserves a clean slate for when games resume. Smart should be back. All players should have fresh legs. There should be time for team meetings and practices.

If the C's can regain their footing and go 20-3, they will win 60 games. Everyone would then concede there is at least a puncher's chance, say no one is hurt. Monroe should be fitting in by then.

The easy attitude is to think the season is over except to play out the minutes. It's easier that way emotionally. But I'm not ready for that. I look forward to see what the Celtics can possibly come up with to regain fan confidence.

They lost all their point guards. They were down to Terry Rozier.

This will be the second big period of rest within the season. I'd rather the team be healthy than have a great regular season record. Houston and Atlanta had years where they marched through the year. Indiana too with the Hibbert Era. But none of them accomplished anything. Basketball can be brutal. We haven't had one playoff run with a healthy team in the Brad Era.

The roster is definitely stacked. If Hayward makes it back, it goes 11 deep for NBA ready quality. 23 games is not that many more to survive with intact health and stamina. Maybe the Celtics are doing rope-a-dope. Ali beat Foreman by conserving strength. He who laughs last might be in play. The Celtics are a team no one should want to face. Now is not the same as in a couple months. No one knows. One can be optimistic, pessimistic or neutral. No one can predict the future. I'm still positive. You compete until, "There's always next year." That's not until if and when they lose their final game. Maybe they win their last game for #18. I'm holding onto the puncher's chance!

Basketball is a game of runs. It's better to slump now than in the playoffs. There is still hope and especially if the team is healthy in April. They are currently playing like a bottom feeder, but the roster remains stacked with just enough games left to figure out offense. The Celtics should be the freshest, most healthy team for the playoffs. It's like glimmers of playoff glory hope within the season.

If they were going to have a slump, better now than in March. I know you love Rondo, and really, he is an assist magician. However, toward the end of his stay here, he would get the ball, bring it up slowly and pound the heck out of it for 18 plus seconds, then all of a sudden he would send the ball off to a shooter in one of the corners or maybe the top of the key. That player would then be rushed to throw the ball up even if they were not set. I believe he has learned a lot since he left here, but his volatile personality will keep him from making the money he so desired when he was leaving Boston.
Last night Marcus Morris was terrific in the first half. In the second half it seem like he did not want to take a shot. He had many open opportunities, but it just did not happen for him.

This team needs to regain their identity, work Together, and I think things will be okay. It was disappointing last night to lose to the Clippers, they should have beaten that team, period. Game plan? Giving Jordan free range and let him get to the basket whenever he wanted was not good.

Thank God for the all star break, I think???? Hopefully they will return to the court with a fire in there bellies. And by the way, you are right about Larkin, hopefully he will return along with Marcus. Enjoy the all star weekend, I find it kind of boring, but will watch for lack of anything else to watch. See you on the board here. You are a die hard like the rest of us!!!!!!!

Most fans are rolling with this team until the final horn marks the end of the season.

Listen to some of these announcers and reporters, they have shovels ready! You are right, anyone here on the board will stick thru thick and thin. That's what being a Celtic fan does.

Too bad Beat came all the way down to see them lose last night. I am sure you will be down again soon.

kdp59 wrote:.600 ball is pretty damn good if you ask me.

we DID lose our Max salary free agent acquisition after only 5 minute this season after all.

I do think many of us have had too high expectations of this team considering that alone.

+1

Nice to see a little perspective

Is it possible that neither the winning streak nor the recent swoon   truly reflect the stature of this team? I kind of am a stats guy, but only when used properly. In general, for stats to have any meaning, you need large numbers. You absolutely cannot say things like "ignoring this or that, then...". Thats not how it works. Right now, the Celtics are what the numbers say they are, a team with a 0.678 winning percentage. Nearly 0.700. As to the question of their direction - see me in April....

One thing good has come out of this tough patch.

Terry Rozier has had an opportunity to play extended minutes.

After his first ever start and triple double, he has played 7 games in February averaging 30 MPG. He is averaging 16.6 ppg, 3.9 assists and 4.7 rebounds and only 1.4 turnovers. He is also shooting ,463% from deep. There was a stretch during the Clippers game when he came in with high energy and it uplifted the team.

dboss

dboss wrote:One thing good has come out of this tough patch.

Terry Rozier has had an opportunity to play extended minutes.

After his first ever start and triple double, he has played 7 games in February averaging 30 MPG.  He is averaging 16.6 ppg, 3.9 assists and 4.7 rebounds and only 1.4 turnovers.  He is also shooting ,463% from deep.  There was a stretch during the Clippers game when he came in with high energy and it uplifted the team.

dboss

dboss

I wouldn't be surprised to see Rozier's minutes go up - and Smarts down. More across the board ability then Smart.

swish

I don't see Rozier and Smart being in a direct competion for playing time. I know most posters hate small ball, but these two guys play pretty well together and Smart can defend at the 3 position.If they keep disappearing, Depending on how they are playing, Brown and especially Tatum, who has appeared comatose at times recently, may sit some too. Brown will probably continue to finish games, but Smart , in my opinion , is more likely to do so than Tatum. Jayson is going to have a sweet career, but his legs don't seem to be under him lately. Get on that leg press machine , Tatum.

Rosalie cheered me up too early and now it is becoming boring to wait for games. Nonetheless, I don't find it boring enough to watch the all-star game. But the team did need this extended time out. They have lost their way.

I agree with Mr. Foot that Rozier and Smart are not in much direct competition. They are one of those combos I mentioned. Evan Turner and Olynyk had something working. Evan got the assists, Kelly the easy layups. Now both have big contracts. Smart and Rozier are a tandem. Irving and Horford clicked. The team needs more clicking, less hero ball.

I agree with Swish, however, that they could swap minutes. They have it better than the old school Marquis Daniels versus Tony Allen debate. I recall them as it was one or the other who got to play. It was like a quarterback controversy.

Larkin truly got hurt at the worst possible time for himself and the team. Now even if he makes it back, the guard rotation is set. Shane will go sit next to Semi, Yabu and Abdel when he returns. That's luxury for players 12-15. Semi and Nader are way more useful than RJ, James Young or Jordan Mickey ever were. If they play, we still probably lose, but they are not completely inept like previous deep bench prospects.

A lot could happen. Monroe could end up starting. Brown and/or Tatum could end up on the bench. Irving and Horford are the only two guys who must start.

I think the true Smart/Rozier competition is coming from the luxury tax, on the business side. Both of them are vital to any chance at the ultimate upset, not just making it to the ECF or finals to predictably get pounded. It should be obvious fairly soon into the last 23 games whether the C's are back on track or maybe I should reevaluate green-goggled expectations.

I do try to keep personal bias out of my opinions.

The Celtics should not lose more than 5 more games. That would bring them to 58 wins. Someone here predicted that number. Go 15-8 for 55 wins and then I don't think they are good enough. Yeah, I'm a bit rattled from the bad stretch. I'm trying to not stew too much because the next game isn't until Friday. It will be back to backs at Detroit, at New York. It'll be two quick road games to see if the team has regrouped. I'm definitely thinking clean slate. It's only fair.

Hey, I know it is nothing important, But Jaylen Brown got cheated out of that MVP away in the Rising Stars game. He looked great. You could almost tell Bogdonovich was going to get it. Everytime he shot they were yelling and screaming.

Anyway, if we could have THAT Jaylen come the second half, I would be in my glory. Tatum did okay too, 15 points, 4 rbds., 2 steals. So Boston was represented well.

It is a very crazy thing to get excited, but better they show us off well than stink!!!!!

I really hate the all star game, they are going to turn it into a love fest and I don't now if I can stand that. I may find a rerun of an old championship game to watch!!!

swish wrote:

dboss wrote:One thing good has come out of this tough patch.

Terry Rozier has had an opportunity to play extended minutes.

After his first ever start and triple double, he has played 7 games in February averaging 30 MPG.  He is averaging 16.6 ppg, 3.9 assists and 4.7 rebounds and only 1.4 turnovers.  He is also shooting ,463% from deep.  There was a stretch during the Clippers game when he came in with high energy and it uplifted the team.

dboss

 dboss

I wouldn't be surprised to see Rozier's minutes go up - and Smarts down. More across the board ability then Smart.

  swish

That is certainly one possibility or maybe they play Tatum a few less minutes, let Brown play SF and play Smart and Rozier.

RosalieTCeltics wrote:Hey, I know it is nothing important, But Jaylen Brown got cheated out of that MVP away in the Rising Stars game. He looked great.  You could almost tell Bogdonovich was going to get it. Everytime he shot they were yelling and screaming.  

Anyway, if we could have THAT Jaylen come the second half, I would be in my glory.  Tatum did okay too, 15 points, 4 rbds., 2 steals.  So Boston was represented well.

It is a very crazy thing to get excited, but better they show us off well than stink!!!!!

I really hate the all star game, they are going to turn it into a love fest and I don't now if I can stand that.  I may find a rerun of an old championship game to watch!!!

I don't regret missing it, but thank you very much for sharing. That's great news.

We need a countdown clock to Friday's game. I think it's perfect they will be on the road to sort things out on their own before returning for home games.

Brad will come up with something. Maybe Tatum takes over the historic sixth man role. I bet Smart is going to be at his best with lots of passion. Moose will feel more comfortable. The sky is not falling. Phew.

RosalieTCeltics wrote:Hey, I know it is nothing important, But Jaylen Brown got cheated out of that MVP away in the Rising Stars game. He looked great.  You could almost tell Bogdonovich was going to get it. Everytime he shot they were yelling and screaming.  

Anyway, if we could have THAT Jaylen come the second half, I would be in my glory.  Tatum did okay too, 15 points, 4 rbds., 2 steals.  So Boston was represented well.

It is a very crazy thing to get excited, but better they show us off well than stink!!!!!

I really hate the all star game, they are going to turn it into a love fest and I don't now if I can stand that.  I may find a rerun of an old championship game to watch!!!

Jaylen was great, he hit some outstanding perimeter shots and his speed and dunking ability is tailor made for the run and gun no defense all star game. He scored 35, next year I look forward to a few 30 plus point games from him in the real games.

I wish he was that possessed during the regular season games, although before these last few losses, he has really looked like he is close to being a guy that will be counted on for more and more next year. No matter what, it is good to see them play well in the high profile environment of the all star game. They can dream of being an all star some day down the line.

It took Jimmy Butler and Paul George and even Kawhi Leonard and Durant and Harden a few seasons to get it, to be that lethal first or second primary scoring option and initiate the offense. If Jaylen can improve as much in year 3 as he did in year 2, that will be amazing. He has the raw attributes as good or better than all those players/stars I just listed. We’ve seen he can get up for big moments and big games and we’ve seen bad stretches too. He has the work ethic and raw athleticism most players wish they had, so he will only continue transforming and working and getting better. He easily could have gotten the MVP and his game/abilities stood out on a big stage.

I would say Brown's upside is closest to Jimmy Butler rather than the others your named.

but that's no slight.

kdp59 wrote:I would say Brown's upside is closest to Jimmy Butler rather than the others your named.

but that's no slight.

Is Paul George significantly better than Jimmy Butler somehow? I doubt that. They're pretty comparable.

Kawhi is a bit different, but I see no reason why Jaylen can't reach his level. Jaylen is also a two-way player who can defend elite wings.


KJ

cowens/oldschool wrote:It took Jimmy Butler and Paul George and even Kawhi Leonard and Durant and Harden a few seasons to get it, to be that lethal first or second primary scoring option and initiate the offense. If Jaylen can improve as much in year 3 as he did in year 2, that will be amazing. He has the raw attributes as good or better than all those players/stars I just listed. We’ve seen he can get up for big moments and big games and we’ve seen bad stretches too. He has the work ethic and raw athleticism most players wish they had, so he will only continue transforming and working and getting better. He easily could have gotten the MVP and his game/abilities stood out on a big stage.

+1