Who is the GOAT?

Wilt, MJ and Russell discuss this.






bob
MY NOTE:  In the interest of full and fair disclosure, I don't give a fat rat's ass about this stuff, my position is actually closer to the one MJ espouses, I'm just posting this to start a fight.  Good-natured and convivial, of course.  This is a discussion of things that can never be proven.  Please remember that when presenting your views.


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I agree with Russell. In his prime he'd take 6 shots, but he'd close down the other team's front court. The way he played, his team won. Isn't winning the prime factor in determining greatness? Would you take Hannibal over Caesar, Rommell over Patton, or Hector over Odysseus. I'd take the winning general every time.

worcester wrote:I agree with Russell. In his prime he'd take 6 shots, but he'd close down the other team's front court. The way he played, his team won. Isn't winning the prime factor in determining greatness? Would you take Hannibal over Caesar, Rommell over Patton, or Hector over Odysseus. I'd take the winning general every time.

worcester,

I'd take Caesar over Hannibal too. Hannibal would have been about 150 years old when Caesar was born. Hard to get up on those war elephants when you're dry as dust.


bob


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James
Bird
Russell
Jordan
Magic

worcester wrote:I agree with Russell. In his prime he'd take 6 shots, but he'd close down the other team's front court. The way he played, his team won. Isn't winning the prime factor in determining greatness? Would you take Hannibal over Caesar, Rommell over Patton, or Hector over Odysseus. I'd take the winning general every time.

Russel
Hannibal
Patton
Hector

His name wan't mentioned, and we all know the impossible nature of this task. It's also an irresistible debate.

The basketball GOAT, in my opinion, is Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

If we're keeping it to Mediterranean generals, I believe I'll go with Caesar over Hannibal. Although Caesar did have that glaring issue with his lack of defense in the senate at the Curia Pompeii.

The march of time has me taking the Israeli military over the Mediterranean military of Caesar's day - and for the same reason, a huge edge, to the players of the last 40 years vs the players of the first 25 years. My top ten-- Front court - Bird, James, O'neal, Olajuwon, Duncan, Garnett, Durant
Back court - Jordan, Magic, Bryant, Curry

Greatest player - Tie---- Jordan and James

swish

BILL.RUSSELL. End of story.....

swish wrote:The march of time has me taking the Israeli military over the Mediterranean military of Caesar's day - and for the same reason, a huge edge, to the players of the last 40 years vs the players  of the first 25 years. My top ten-- Front court - Bird, James, O'neal, Olajuwon, Duncan, Garnett, Durant
Back court  - Jordan, Magic, Bryant, Curry

  Greatest player - Tie---- Jordan and James

   swish

   

Durant, really...???

NYcelt, I agree with you. I don't know if any more blasphemous statement can be made in this forum, but when this topic comes up in my circle of friends and coworkers I say give me the first 2 picks in the all time draft, I promise MJ won't be either. I'll let you make the next 5 picks then I'll pick my last 3 and I'll beat you. My first 2 picks...Kareem and Magic. While I don't consider Magic the 2nd greatest ever,I think that he is the greatest PG ever and was virtually unguardable due to his height, strength, smarts and vision.  I am of the opinion that Kareem is the GOAT.

willjr wrote:NYcelt, I agree with you. I don't know if any more blasphemous statement can be made in this forum, but when this topic comes up in my circle of friends and coworkers I say give me the first 2 picks in the all time draft, I promise MJ won't be either. I'll let you make the next 5 picks then I'll pick my last 3 and I'll beat you. My first 2 picks...Kareem and Magic. While I don't consider Magic the 2nd greatest ever,I think that he is the greatest PG ever and was virtually unguardable due to his height, strength, smarts and vision.  I am of the opinion that Kareem is the GOAT.

I agree he never gets enough credit, his longevity was simply amazing, but I still had to go with Russell because of how much he influenced/dominated his era....11 out of 13, not even enough fingers, showed the total dominance and necessity of the defensive anchor. Then even after he retired, teams still searched and needed the dominant center as the key piece first for any team that was going to contend.

Tom Brady.

#micdrop

cowens/oldschool wrote:

swish wrote:The march of time has me taking the Israeli military over the Mediterranean military of Caesar's day - and for the same reason, a huge edge, to the players of the last 40 years vs the players  of the first 25 years. My top ten-- Front court - Bird, James, O'neal, Olajuwon, Duncan, Garnett, Durant
Back court  - Jordan, Magic, Bryant, Curry

  Greatest player - Tie---- Jordan and James

   swish

   

Durant, really...???

cowens

why not - See the below list of players with at least 25000 minutes played who have averaged at 20 points per game who has played small forward most of his career. and to boot weighs in at 240 lbs.

http://bkref.com/tiny/Onb17

swish

On the court and off, Bill Russell was and will always be the GOAT.  

*He won an NCAA Title, and NBA Title and a Gold Medal all in the span of 13 months.
*First Black Coach in NBA History / First Black Coach to win NBA Title

He redefined the sport and what it meant to be a black athlete in this country.  He revolutionized his position, he was a civil rights leader, a race relations leader and he was the greatest winner in team sports history.

swish wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:

swish wrote:The march of time has me taking the Israeli military over the Mediterranean military of Caesar's day - and for the same reason, a huge edge, to the players of the last 40 years vs the players  of the first 25 years. My top ten-- Front court - Bird, James, O'neal, Olajuwon, Duncan, Garnett, Durant
Back court  - Jordan, Magic, Bryant, Curry

  Greatest player - Tie---- Jordan and James

   swish

   

Durant, really...???

cowens

 why not - See the below list of players with at least 25000 minutes played who have averaged at 20 points per game who has played small forward most of his career. and to boot weighs in at 240 lbs.

 http://bkref.com/tiny/Onb17

   swish

I just think he’s somewhat of a pussy for leaving his franchise for the team that just beat him, that was already a champion. One thing I like about Steven A is he still rips Durant for this, can’t imagine Dr J or Larry or Magic or MJ deciding to leave and join one another because he couldn’t be a man and take on a challenge. To me he’s still the same player who couldn’t close out a series up 3-1 and choked every 4th quarter....only now he’s playing with much better players, like a 2 time MVP. At some point a players lack of character should preside over his technical skills on judging his greatness.

mrkleen09 wrote:

On the court and off, Bill Russell was and will always be the GOAT.  

*He won an NCAA Title, and NBA Title and a Gold Medal all in the span of 13 months.
*First Black Coach in NBA History / First Black Coach to win NBA Title

He redefined the sport and what it meant to be a black athlete in this country.  He revolutionized his position, he was a civil rights leader, a race relations leader and he was the greatest winner in team sports history.

Fantastic resume - perhaps the best of all time - but how does that lead to the conclusion that he was the greatest player of all time?

swish

cowens/oldschool wrote:

swish wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:

swish wrote:The march of time has me taking the Israeli military over the Mediterranean military of Caesar's day - and for the same reason, a huge edge, to the players of the last 40 years vs the players  of the first 25 years. My top ten-- Front court - Bird, James, O'neal, Olajuwon, Duncan, Garnett, Durant
Back court  - Jordan, Magic, Bryant, Curry

  Greatest player - Tie---- Jordan and James

   swish

   

Durant, really...???

cowens

 why not - See the below list of players with at least 25000 minutes played who have averaged at 20 points per game who has played small forward most of his career. and to boot weighs in at 240 lbs.

 http://bkref.com/tiny/Onb17

   swish

I just think he’s somewhat of a pussy for leaving his franchise for the team that just beat him, that was already a champion. One thing I like about Steven A is he still rips Durant for this, can’t imagine Dr J or Larry or Magic or MJ deciding to leave and join one another because he couldn’t be a man and take on a challenge. To me he’s still the same player who couldn’t close out a series up 3-1 and choked every 4th quarter....only now he’s playing with much better players, like a 2 time MVP. At some point a players lack of character should preside over his technical skills on judging his greatness.

I guess that means that Hayward should now be viewed suspiciously because he jumped ship on the Utah fans. He broke their hearts.

swish

swish

swish wrote:  

Fantastic resume - perhaps the best of all time - but how does that lead to the conclusion that he was the greatest player of all time?

 swish

Did you just say that you cannot understand how someone could conclude that the player with the best resume in NBA history could be considered the best player of all time?  LOL.

Kareem called Russ the greatest of all time.
Phil Jackson said he would pick Bill Russell first OVER MJ if he were starting a team.
Wilt said that Russ was the greatest of all time.

Basketball is a TEAM GAME.  Any measure of the greatest player is one who makes his teammates better and wins more.  Case closed.  No one will ever be better than Bill Russell.  

I have no intentions of going back and forth with you on this - my opinion will not be changed by any statistic, bull shit comparison of the weight of modern athletes or anything else.  Save your breath.

gyso wrote:Tom Brady.

#micdrop

You know you make me gag every time you say that!

Could be true, but still...

#Billsmafia

mrkleen09 wrote:

swish wrote:  

Fantastic resume - perhaps the best of all time - but how does that lead to the conclusion that he was the greatest player of all time?

 swish

Did you just say that you cannot understand how someone could conclude that the player with the best resume in NBA history could be considered the best player of all time?  LOL.

Kareem called Russ the greatest of all time.
Phil Jackson said he would pick Bill Russell first OVER MJ if he were starting a team.
Wilt said that Russ was the greatest of all time.

Basketball is a TEAM GAME.  Any measure of the greatest player is one who makes his teammates better and wins more.  Case closed.  No one will ever be better than Bill Russell.  

I have no intentions of going back and forth with you on this - my opinion will not be changed by any statistic, bull shit comparison of the weight of modern athletes or anything else.  Save your breath.

Can't have a friendly debate when one party chooses to bow out of the discussion - and I was looking forward to your side of the argument in regards to the B-S side that I present.

swish

swish wrote:  

Can't have a friendly debate when one party chooses to bow out of the discussion - and I was looking forward to your side of the argument in regards to the B-S side that I present.

 swish

Swish - my apologies.  That was a bit too harsh.

I think this kind of discussion, by the nature of it being 100% opinion - is hard to participate in going back and forth.  

I think Bill Russel has the credentials as an athlete, that if you put him in any era - he would rise to the top of the heap.  There is no doubt in my mind that given the kind of nutrition, personal trainers, private jets, pampered lifestyle of the modern NBA - Bill Russell would be just as great as he ever was, probably better.

Not one player in the NBA before or since has had the kind of run he did and they never will.  

Wilt would be my second pick.

swish wrote:

mrkleen09 wrote:

swish wrote:  

Fantastic resume - perhaps the best of all time - but how does that lead to the conclusion that he was the greatest player of all time?

 swish

Did you just say that you cannot understand how someone could conclude that the player with the best resume in NBA history could be considered the best player of all time?  LOL.

Kareem called Russ the greatest of all time.
Phil Jackson said he would pick Bill Russell first OVER MJ if he were starting a team.
Wilt said that Russ was the greatest of all time.

Basketball is a TEAM GAME.  Any measure of the greatest player is one who makes his teammates better and wins more.  Case closed.  No one will ever be better than Bill Russell.  

I have no intentions of going back and forth with you on this - my opinion will not be changed by any statistic,


bull shit comparison of the weight of modern athletes or anything else.  Save your breath.

Can't have a friendly debate when one party chooses to bow out of the discussion - and I was looking forward to your side of the argument in regards to the B-S side that I present.



 swish

Well I disproved the weight theory awhile ago. Hayward is nowhere near the conversation for GOAT and he didn’t go to a championship team that just beat him, after failing to close up 3-1. That’s on his resume too.

cowens/oldschool wrote:

swish wrote:

mrkleen09 wrote:

swish wrote:  

Fantastic resume - perhaps the best of all time - but how does that lead to the conclusion that he was the greatest player of all time?

 swish

Did you just say that you cannot understand how someone could conclude that the player with the best resume in NBA history could be considered the best player of all time?  LOL.

Kareem called Russ the greatest of all time.
Phil Jackson said he would pick Bill Russell first OVER MJ if he were starting a team.
Wilt said that Russ was the greatest of all time.

Basketball is a TEAM GAME.  Any measure of the greatest player is one who makes his teammates better and wins more.  Case closed.  No one will ever be better than Bill Russell.  

I have no intentions of going back and forth with you on this - my opinion will not be changed by any statistic,


bull shit comparison of the weight of modern athletes or anything else.  Save your breath.

Can't have a friendly debate when one party chooses to bow out of the discussion - and I was looking forward to your side of the argument in regards to the B-S side that I present.



 swish

Well I disproved the weight theory awhile ago. Hayward is nowhere near the conversation for GOAT and he didn’t go to a championship team that just beat him, after failing to close up 3-1. That’s on his resume too.

But he did choose to go with his college coach and as it's turned out he went to a team that just might have a better future than Utah.

swish

Shame he left Utah, with Mitchell emerging and Rubio, Gobert and Favors, if he would have stayed there at the 3, that could have been a contending team....also shows you can build a team without top lottery picks.

mrkleen09 wrote:

swish wrote:  

Can't have a friendly debate when one party chooses to bow out of the discussion - and I was looking forward to your side of the argument in regards to the B-S side that I present.

 swish

Swish - my apologies.  That was a bit too harsh.

I think this kind of discussion, by the nature of it being 100% opinion - is hard to participate in going back and forth.  

I think Bill Russel has the credentials as an athlete, that if you put him in any era - he would rise to the top of the heap.  There is no doubt in my mind that given the kind of nutrition, personal trainers, private jets, pampered lifestyle of the modern NBA - Bill Russell would be just as great as he ever was, probably better.

Not one player in the NBA before or since has had the kind of run he did and they never will.  

Wilt would be my second pick.

mrkleen

No problem - I don't heat up that quickly

Your below statement points out why we differ in opinion.

"I think Bill Russel has the credentials as an athlete, that if you put him in any era - he would rise to the top of the heap. There is no doubt in my mind that given the kind of nutrition, personal trainers, private jets, pampered lifestyle of the modern NBA - Bill Russell would be just as great as he ever was, probably better."

I prefer to compare the players of the Russell era as they actually were ( in real time) - against the players of the last 40 or so years - also in real time. You suggest that Russell would benefit greatly from a remake to modern standards - I totally agree, but unfortunately it's those very same benefits that the modern player enjoys that sets up a very noticeable difference in the caliber of play between the Russell years and the present. Even in sports the march of time is also a big factor. So "here's to Russell" my favorite Celtic of all time - Who perhaps could have been the greatest player of all time if if he had benefited from all the modern hi tech stuff that goes into the making of an nba player.
Two options to choose from - go with the one that fits you best.


swish