Tatum's Season

cowens/oldschool wrote:This is gonna open a can of worms, there’s already a great young baby Euro player, a year younger than Tatum that is already better than Tatum in every area offensively and it’s not even close. Doncic looks a lot closer to being the next great iconic superstar forward than Jayson.

You are probably right as I get to watch all of Doncic's games.  Tatum is a better defender and a better shooter.  Doncic hits big shots though because he gets them at the end of games.  Tatum did that last year in the playoffs.  Doncic is a lot better passer and takes it to the rack a LOT better than Jayson.  As much as I like Tatum I would probably have to trade him for Luca,  but Dallas wouldn't do it.

One note: if Jayson got a chance to handle the ball and take as many shots as a lot of these younger guys do on other teams he would be a much better player IMO. Kyrie dominates the ball and rightly so, but that is why I have been pushing for Brad to push Jayson to take that next step because he he the logical guy to do it. He goes long stretches of not touching the ball on the offensive end. He does need to improve the ball handling though.

Doncic has had some off shooting games, but he moves and helps with ball movement draws enough defense to still help in other areas, even if he is cold he seems to help doing something. He’s also had some big outside shooting bursts where he has been in a zone. Maybe Tatum and Brown are not getting enough volume of shots to ever find that zone lately, but no question Doncic earned it and it has been on going during the season as they are giving him more responsibility and he is responding.

cowens/oldschool wrote:Doncic has had some off shooting games, but he moves and helps with ball movement draws enough defense to still help in other areas, even if he is cold he seems to help doing something. He’s also had some big outside shooting bursts where he has been in a zone. Maybe Tatum and Brown are not getting enough volume of shots to ever find that zone lately, but no question Doncic earned it and it has been on going during the season as they are giving him more responsibility and he is responding.

I listened on Sirius yesterday talking about Doncic. Why he was way ahead of the game in regards to kids his age. They said it was because he played with guys much older and in that league the older guys were trying to put food on the table and Luca had to fit it. The game wasn't about him, it was about families eating and Luca learned how to make those guys better while learning how to refine his game. It was a pretty good discussion that made sense. I fully expect Cool Hand Luke to improve his shooting percentages and cut down on his high number of turnovers but make no mistake he is the real deal. He isn't afraid of the moment. When one of his team mates make a mistake at a critical time you can see it by the expression on Luca's face. He is way ahead of his years.

Ktronic1 wrote:Where i think a lot of us make mistakes is comparing one players 3rd year (or whatever number we throw out) in the league to another player from the past and his 3rd year in the league.
I remember talking about that with the late Harvey Martin of the Dallas Cowboys and he stated that you cannot make an evaluation based on that criteria. “Player A may be at a certain level in their 3rd year but player A may have or have not peaked in his third year. (Again just using year 3 as a hypothetical). Same for player B. Theory being that every player has a peak level that may differ from other players. So to say Look at Tatum in year 2 compared to Player so and so in his 2nd year is not a fair and/or accurate evaluation.
I see and hear this example used many times it is very misleading.

Ktronic,

That's a really good point.

I'm sure many of us use that measuring stick, but who's to say when a player hits his peak?

The only reliable measure may be after a career is complete. Of course, no one wants to wait that long, so we have at it too soon.

Regards

NYCelt wrote:

Ktronic1 wrote:Where i think a lot of us make mistakes is comparing one players 3rd year (or whatever number we throw out) in the league to another player from the past and his 3rd year in the league.
I remember talking about that with the late Harvey Martin of the Dallas Cowboys and he stated that you cannot make an evaluation based on that criteria. “Player A may be at a certain level in their 3rd year but player A may have or have not peaked in his third year. (Again just using year 3 as a hypothetical). Same for player B. Theory being that every player has a peak level that may differ from other players. So to say Look at Tatum in year 2 compared to Player so and so in his 2nd year is not a fair and/or accurate evaluation.
I see and hear this example used many times it is very misleading.

Ktronic,

That's a really good point.

I'm sure many of us use that measuring stick, but who's to say when a player hits his peak?

The only reliable measure may be after a career is complete. Of course, no one wants to wait that long, so we have at it too soon.

Regards

In most cases we really don’t know until ones career is over. However, there are some players who’s numbers and effectiveness tail off and trend downward before their career is close to being over and vice versa. I’m curious to see where Donavan Mitchell ends up as opposed to Jason Tatum and Doncic. The ladder 2 being a bit younger than Mitchell. Really want to see how those 2 careers progress as time goes on.

bobheckler wrote:

cowens/oldschool wrote:He was MIA tonight

Cow,

He might as well as been in Miami last night for all the difference he made.


bob


.

that's a good one , bob

I think some of Tatum's finishing problems have to do with the fact that he still needs to get physically stronger, especially in the upper body. He's taken some heat for playing hero ball. I hope that doesn't make him too reticent. Love the kid , though. Growing pains, figurative , and maybe literal to an extent.

I really think Rosalie makes a valid point.  He is our second option but at times he gets tunnel vision and that is when he falls outside of the offense.  He needs to be more of a willing passer instead of leading the team in ISO plays.

He is young and still learning and has a chance to be very good at doing many things.  None of this is to impugn his games.  Just observations.

He is our # 2 option but if Hayward starts shooting better he becomes #2 behind Irving because his game is more complete.  He passes the ball.

dboss wrote:I really think Rosalie makes a valid point.  He is our second option but at times he gets tunnel vision and that is when he falls outside of the offense.  He needs to be more of a willing passer instead of leading the team in ISO plays.

He is young and still learning and has a chance to be very good at doing many things.  None of this is to impugn his games.  Just observations.

He is our # 2 option but if Hayward starts shooting better he becomes #2 behind Irving because his game is more complete.  He passes the ball.

I can agree with most of this. What I think is going on is he knows he won't get a shot if he passes it. We have too many guys that want/need their shots. I think he probably believes he should get more shots instead of standing in the corner like I see a lot. I am not sure Hayward if going to get it going this year. I think its in his head now. Rozier and Brown are both playing for contracts. Everyone needs to get theirs I guess. I don't know the answer but I hope we figure out something. Winning masks a lot of problems.

I think Doncic is a good young player, but in no way do I see him being better than Jayson Tatum.

He is playing on a terribly inconsistent team with low expectations, a team that is not getting anything like the kind of intensity that the Celtics are facing every night. He is taking many more shots per game and shooting a lower % than Tatum across the board. He is top 10 in the NBA in turnovers, not good IMO.

Tatum showed when the lights are brightest, he raises his game. He was a monster in the playoffs last year. Doncic wont likely smell the playoffs anytime soon.

In the long run, like them both - but I think Jayson is a FAR superior athlete to Doncic, with far better pedigree. Better competition from an early age, better coaching, will be Tatums trump card over time.

Well we do get to see this matchup again in a couple of games. Mavs are 2-16 on the road. MRK you are right on a lot of your points and I hope you are right in the long run but you are underestimating Luca. His passing is far superior and he has that IT factor they talk about. I saw a lot more of this from Tatum last year than I am this year.

I am really surprised he has not had a 30 point game yet.

The Mavs I think are better than you give them credit for as well. They have been in a lot of close games to good teams. If they keep Jordan after this year they will be in the playoffs next year unless they lose some players.

I would sure like to somehow trade Rozier for Dennis Smith. Smith can be a beast at times.

Without doubt Luka has the “It” factor.  

He has so much “It” it got this cheap guy to buy NBALeague Pass recently mostly to watch Dallas games!

I’m not into comparing Tatum and him, I think they both will be special in their own ways.  To me the Mavs, and the NBA, must be thrilled with the Luka factor as I’m sure it is increasing attendance. (and of course League Pass subscribers)

The most recent comparison, regarding the “it” factor not their games, for me is a young Rajon Rondo.  When he came into the game his rookie year there was no way I was leaving the TV room.  Just never knew what creative, imaginative play he would come up with.  Doncic is the same for me.

Kleen Luka has earned the ball at crunch time and has earned more responsibility as the season has progressed. So far this season we haven’t seen the playoff versions of 2 J’s, both were better in playoff run, we’ve got too many scoring wings trying to play together and not enough rebounding bigs right now. Tatum’s rebounding is getting better right now, it has to with bigs that play together like Al and Morris, neither being a glass eater. It looks like Tatum’s defense is coming on, his finishing has not progressed as much as I thought it would. I don’t know what the stats are, I know Doncic has also had some bad shooting games, but his ability to create for others and himself is superior to Tatum right now, not even close. His vision and ball handling are something you can’t teach, he can play point.

Right now - Tatum doesnt need to create for others, he has Kyrie for that. As for the rest, will stick by my comments.

Tatum is a superior athlete to Doncic, with far better pedigree.

Tatum will be a HOF and a cog on multiple championship teams in Boston. I dont see anything about that Dallas team that says more than middle of the road.

Doncic will be another Dirk. Great career and very little winning chips.