Kyrie to Kyrie or not to Kyrie

So we just won another big game without Kyrie....I know, I’m opening a can of worms, but thought it is a worthy interesting topic. Scary thing is we won last night and it was all guts and defense, our starting backcourt should have shot us out of the game, but Al, Tatum, GH, Smart and Rozier late, all made huge plays both ends down the stretch. So I have my thoughts on the Kyrie topic, but I’ll save them for later....

What I said last night was that team looked a lot like last years group. There was ball movement, a lot of people touching the ball feeling like they were part of something. The defense looked a lot like the suffocating defense we saw last year. I have posted before the Cavs couldn't win a game hardly when Lebron was not playing over the last 2-3 year in Cleveland.

I truly like Kyrie but it is sure hard to ignore the eye test. Imagine this year if our young guys had been playing this way and developing. You think we would be better?

I think maybe if Kyrie would quit worrying about anointing himself team leader, be more of a facilitator this could work. Sure he is great sometime at the ends of games. The other guys just sit around and watch. Last night he would have dominated the ball the last 4 minutes of the game and I am not sure we would have won. Possibly.

Regardless I think he walks this year anyway.

cowens/oldschool wrote:So we just won another big game without Kyrie....I know, I’m opening a can of worms, but thought it is a worthy interesting topic. Scary thing is we won last night and it was all guts and defense, our starting backcourt should have shot us out of the game, but Al, Tatum, GH, Smart and Rozier late, all made huge plays both ends down the stretch. So I have my thoughts on the Kyrie topic, but I’ll save them for later....

yes Cow

You have opened up a can of worms but actually the conversation about Kyrie and his value to the team has raised its' ugly head ever since he made some public comments about the young guys on the team and them understanding what it takes to win.  His "talk to me in July" comments only added another element to the discussion.

The Celtics are a better team with Kyrie than without him and they should do everything reasonably possible to resign him after the season.  

It is hard to look at things objectively.  As fans our appreciation is partly influence by assumptions that are not entirely realistic. Our view of this team from game to game is in a constant state of flux.  

Last night Boston won on the road against a Sixers team that has added two quality players to their roster.  Boston goes down to the city of brotherly love and snatches the heart out of the Sixers chest.  We are now 17-2 against them in the regular season since the middle of the 2014 season.  We did not have Kyrie last night and if truth be told we would have easily lost that game if not for the performance of Gordon Hayward.  The win was obviously a team effort,  But Hayward was our shot maker again and again.  Last night reminded me that as good as Terry Rosier is he is still a cheap imitation of the genuine product.  The new found shot making ability of Marcus Smart is returning to the mean as he went 0-8 last night and is 2 for his last 19 over the past 3 games.  If anything this game proves how valuable Kyrie Irving is as an unstoppable force  and we have no one that can come close to playing his position on the team.  It also reminded us that Gordon Hayward when healthy is a hellava ball player.  Together they can become a dynamic duo.

When Kyrie made the statement about youth on this team he was correct.  The problem is related to making those statement in a public forum.  As much as we love guys like Jason, Jaylen and Terry they do not have the credentials as young and relatively inexperienced players.  Kyrie Irving has played off the charts this year while posting career highs in assists, rebounds, steals and Field Goal percentage.  We have seen so many games this year already when the team could not buy a bucket but they could go to Kyrie to get that needed bucket.  Kyrie has championship experience and is a proven winner.  He in fact does know what it takes to win.

As fans we would be well served to forget about last season.  Forget about how our youth movement pushed the envelop forward.  What happened last year has little to do with this year.  We have to understand when you have this much talent on a team everybody including talented players may not get as much playing time and may not be a primary scoring option for example.

In my opinion the most important thing for the Celtics is to blend all the talent together and get buy ins from every player on the team.  They have not really had that this year and that is why the biggest problem has been a lack of chemistry on a consistent basis,

The second thing is to get Gordon Hayward into his comfort zone as our #2 scoring option.  While I can accept that it might take him a full year to be really effective I am not so sure that it cannot happen this season.  4 out of his last 6 have been outstanding game.  The gaps between him playing tentatively vs playing with a level of swag is diminishing right in front of our faces.  I really think this is what we all have been waiting to see.  I think a few more outings should nail this down.

His value to this team can best be realized when you consider his multi-skilled abilities.  Even during this most difficult comeback he has still rebounded the ball and passed the ball to teammates.  Perhaps his contributions have been overlooked.  All we want to see is the ball going through the basket.  As much as I love Tatum he remains far from becoming an all around player because he does not look to pass the ball.  He may learn as he matures but he is not that guy as of today.  

Let me tie this up.  The two most talented and complete players on this team are Kyrie Irving and Gordon Hayward.  Everyone else is actually a complimentary player, some obviously better than others.  Kyrie remains the gold standard so I am keeping him and Gordon solidifies our team as a true contender.

Since the can has been opened, and the worms are spilling out:

https://heavy.com/sports/2019/02/celtics-kyrie-irving-record-injury-stats/


Numbers Show Celtics Have Actually Been Better Without Kyrie Irving

he Boston Celtics have one of the best point guards in the NBA in Kyrie Irving, but the argument has been made that they may be better without him. Attempting to argue that a team is consistently better without their most talented player is a tall task, but it’s been mentioned many times, especially as of late. And after the Celtics knocked off the Philadelphia 76ers on the road Tuesday without Irving, the chatter began once again.

While the new-look Sixers have impressed over the past two games since acquiring Tobias Harris, Brad Stevens’ squad went into Philly and picked up a key victory. And in turn, Twitter chimed in and pulled no punches with their thoughts on the Irving vs. non-Irving debate.

The Celtics are better without Kyrie Irving.

— Hoopnomics (@Hoopnomics) February 13, 2019

Celtics are a much better team without Kyrie Irving. period. Full stop. truth.

— badger (@badgerfan1234) February 13, 2019

As crazy as it may seem, the numbers actually back up an argument that the Celtics are better without Irving. To be clear, that’s not saying that they’re a more talented group, but they’re a better all-around team at this moment. Considering the amount of talent spread across the roster, that can’t be considered all that surprising, as they don’t necessarily need a ball-dominant player at times.

Stats Show Celtics Better Without Kyrie Irving
Irving has missed 10 games this season and over that span, the Celtics have posted an 8-2 record. On the other hand, in the games he’s suited up for, Boston has gone 28-19. While it’s a small sample size, you can even go back to last season and look at how that year played out, considering Irving played in 60 of 82 regular-season games and missed the playoffs.

Over the span of three rounds in the 2017-18 NBA Playoffs, the Celtics went 11-8 and eliminated the Sixers in five games. As far as the games Irving missed during the regular season, Boston reeled off a 14-8 record, including winning 10 of 16 games over the final month of the season.

Beyond that, the Celtics average 112.9 points per game this season over 57 games. In the 10 games Irving did not suit up for, the average jumps a bit to 113.5. Obviously, this isn’t a drastic increase, but when looking at it against the entire league, this would bump the team from No. 12 in points per game up to No. 9.

Impressive Numbers of Celtics Players Without Irving
It’s not surprising that the bulk of Celtics players see usage increases with Irving off the floor, but it’s allowed young playmakers to thrive. As Basketball Monster details, every player except one who’s tallied 350 or more minutes with Irving off the floor has seen their usage jump.

*Note: Usage stats are from prior to win over Sixers on Tuesday.

Terry Rozier (1,006.3 minutes): 18.4 to 19.7
Jaylen Brown (711.5 minutes): 22.2 to 24.7
Gordon Hayward (701 minutes): 19.4 to 21.4
Jayson Tatum (662.9 minutes): 22.5 to 23.6
Marcus Smart (611.8 minutes): 14.2 to 17.5
Marcus Morris (547.6 minutes): 20.8 to 24.6
Daniel Thies (442.8 minutes): 16.2 to 15.6
Al Horford (356 minutes): 18.5 to 19.1
The only player who has seen their usage decrease is Daniel Theis, while names such as Jaylen Brown, Gordon Hayward, Marcus Smart, and Marcus Morris all see big increases.

Among the numbers that stand out most, Morris’ points per 36 minutes increase from 19.1 to 21.8 while Brown’s jump from 17.6 to 19.3. Each player is understandably tasked with doing more, but the Celtics have done an excellent job of playing team basketball in the absence of Irving. In turn, this makes his upcoming free agency decision even more interesting to monitor, although there’s no question the team wants him back.



Not sure I am ready to agree at this point, but if the numbers keep indicating the same trends, even as the sample size increases, then you have to consider they are revealing something real...

Hi,
It's kind of funny. Every time Celtics win, especially against a good team, without KI, there's a post or a thread about "with vs without KI"
I hope we will not have to actually decide it come playoffs time.

AK

Hey dboss great post, I just wanted to add while I love how GH performed I can’t agree that he is better than the 2 J’s. Tatum also has a growth curve that will grow and IMO surpass the best of Hayward and right now I think Tatum is better, especially when you consider both ends. On Jaylen I was watching him and Butler very closely and was shocking how well Jaylen matches up with Butler. I used to think Butler was a very athletic wing, well Jaylen is better at all levels of athleticism and I didn’t notice that before and was actually surprised. There was a sequence in 2nd where Butler tried to get past J on the right baseline, couldn’t come close to doing it and threw the ball away. Then next possession Simmons came down lane and J swiped the ball away knocking it out of bounds. You were right on the post game you said Jaylen’s defense was excellent and it was....

Anyway we can go back to Kyrie....

bob


.

Cow under the post game thread I posted about this in a little more detail by examining the 8-2 no Kyrie record.

The Celtics as well as they played could not get out of the East last year. There has been no dramatic improvement in the quality of play among our young guys. Kyrie remains the only elite player on this team and has championship experience under his resume.

I think way too much of this narrative has been pushed forward because of a few things that Kyrie has said. Are we willing to give him the opportunity to grow? Teams only win championships with elite players. Celtics fans need to understand that.

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/dont-let-numbers-fool-you-celtics-arent-better-without-kyrie-irving?fbclid=IwAR3Lyrzp3NolNr8GDc9E6ydCf3qrY4EVYT4MA3UJIIeMnfVUQBOdQWJq-JU

Don't let the numbers fool you: Celtics aren't better without Kyrie Irving
By A. Sherrod Blakely February 13, 2019 11:49 AM
PHILADELPHIA --

Here we go again.

When it comes to surviving, and even thriving, without their best player, nobody does it better than the Boston Celtics.

The optics going into Tuesday’s matchup with Philadelphia weren't encouraging for Boston. Philadelphia came in playing its best basketball of the season, with a lineup that was crushing opponents with its lethal offensive weaponry.

So what did the Celtics do?

They rolled into Philly and rolled over the Sixers for a 112-109 win in a game in which they led for most of the night. And they did so without Kyrie Irving, who's out because of a right knee sprain.

Horford shows how impactful he can be in Celtics' win over 76ers
The win not only bolstered the Celts' overall record to 36-21, putting them in a tie for fourth place in the Eastern Conference with Philadelphia, it gave them the season series with the Sixers for the fifth straight year.

And it added another chapter to the narrative that the Celtics are a better team without Kyrie Irving.

It sounds like absolute lunacy to believe that playing without a 26-year-old, six-time All-Star makes you a better team. But you can sort through a wide range of data and come away with a large swath of numbers to assert that position.

With Irving, Boston has shot 46 percent from the field. In the 10 games without him, that number improves to 48.3 percent.
When it comes to points scored, the Celtics average 112.8 with Irving, 113.5 without him.
Defensively, Boston is allowing a respectable 107.3 points with Irving in the lineup, But that number takes a noticeable dip to 102.8 points per game when he's out.
But there’s really just one number that matters: Win total. And without Irving, Boston has shown itself capable of winning. A lot.

Tuesday’s victory improved Boston’s record to 8-2 (.800 winning percentage) this season without Irving on the floor, compared to 28-19 (.595) with him.

However, here’s the cold reality of playing without Irving.

While the Celtics certainly look good now, they aren't going to have the kind of deep postseason run they envision without a relatively healthy Kyrie Irving.

"If only the Celtics believed that," an Eastern Conference scout jokingly texted NBC Sports Boston when asked about Boston being better without Irving. "Come playoff time, Kyrie becomes an absolute killer on the court. We know this. And Danny Ainge and the Celtics, they know it, too."

Last season’s postseason sprint to the Conference finals -- without Irving logging a single minute due to a knee surgery -- elevated the expectations of many for this franchise. But as impressive as that run was, the season still ended without a trip to the NBA Finals.

That’s because the playoffs, more than any time of the NBA season, is the time of year when the deeper you get, the more star power trumps depth.

What’s often forgotten about regular-season play versus what you see in the playoffs is how the postseason really is geared more towards teams whose base is more heavily built upon the shoulders of superstars or stars on the rise.

And that has a way of limiting a team like the Celtics, whose greatest strength lies in their depth.

That's where Irving comes in. He's one of the NBA’s best players and he's shown the ability to elevate his play when the games matter most -- in the playoffs.

In his three trips to the postseason, Irving is a career 23.9 points per game scorer -- better than his career regular-season average of 22.1. He's averaged more points in each of his last two postseason appearances, both of which included trips to the NBA Finals with the Cleveland Cavaliers. That speaks to his ability to score at a high level over an extended period of time, and having a player with that strength is key to any team's postseason success.

What we have seen from Boston in the regular season is what you expect from a team with lots of depth. However, successfully navigating through the rough terrain of the playoffs requires a different kind of talent; the kind of talent that can single-handedly carry a team to victory on any given night.

Without Irving, Boston doesn’t have a player with that pedigree right now.

Jayson Tatum has shown flashes. Ditto for Al Horford, Terry Rozier, Jaylen Brown and others here and there.

But none of them are in the same class as Irving when it comes to putting a team on their back and leading it to victory when the stakes are at their highest.

So as much as the “Boston’s better without Kyrie” crowd will point to the team’s play without Irving, the Celtics' postseason journey won't include a trip to the NBA Finals -- their primary goal all season -- if he's not there.

mrkleen09 wrote:https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/dont-let-numbers-fool-you-celtics-arent-better-without-kyrie-irving?fbclid=IwAR3Lyrzp3NolNr8GDc9E6ydCf3qrY4EVYT4MA3UJIIeMnfVUQBOdQWJq-JU

Don't let the numbers fool you: Celtics aren't better without Kyrie Irving
By A. Sherrod Blakely February 13, 2019 11:49 AM
PHILADELPHIA --

Here we go again.

When it comes to surviving, and even thriving, without their best player, nobody does it better than the Boston Celtics.

The optics going into Tuesday’s matchup with Philadelphia weren't encouraging for Boston. Philadelphia came in playing its best basketball of the season, with a lineup that was crushing opponents with its lethal offensive weaponry.

So what did the Celtics do?

They rolled into Philly and rolled over the Sixers for a 112-109 win in a game in which they led for most of the night. And they did so without Kyrie Irving, who's out because of a right knee sprain.

Horford shows how impactful he can be in Celtics' win over 76ers
The win not only bolstered the Celts' overall record to 36-21, putting them in a tie for fourth place in the Eastern Conference with Philadelphia, it gave them the season series with the Sixers for the fifth straight year.

And it added another chapter to the narrative that the Celtics are a better team without Kyrie Irving.

It sounds like absolute lunacy to believe that playing without a 26-year-old, six-time All-Star makes you a better team. But you can sort through a wide range of data and come away with a large swath of numbers to assert that position.

With Irving, Boston has shot 46 percent from the field. In the 10 games without him, that number improves to 48.3 percent.
When it comes to points scored, the Celtics average 112.8 with Irving, 113.5 without him.
Defensively, Boston is allowing a respectable 107.3 points with Irving in the lineup, But that number takes a noticeable dip to 102.8 points per game when he's out.
But there’s really just one number that matters: Win total. And without Irving, Boston has shown itself capable of winning. A lot.

Tuesday’s victory improved Boston’s record to 8-2 (.800 winning percentage) this season without Irving on the floor, compared to 28-19 (.595) with him.

However, here’s the cold reality of playing without Irving.

While the Celtics certainly look good now, they aren't going to have the kind of deep postseason run they envision without a relatively healthy Kyrie Irving.

"If only the Celtics believed that," an Eastern Conference scout jokingly texted NBC Sports Boston when asked about Boston being better without Irving. "Come playoff time, Kyrie becomes an absolute killer on the court. We know this. And Danny Ainge and the Celtics, they know it, too."

Last season’s postseason sprint to the Conference finals -- without Irving logging a single minute due to a knee surgery -- elevated the expectations of many for this franchise. But as impressive as that run was, the season still ended without a trip to the NBA Finals.

That’s because the playoffs, more than any time of the NBA season, is the time of year when the deeper you get, the more star power trumps depth.

What’s often forgotten about regular-season play versus what you see in the playoffs is how the postseason really is geared more towards teams whose base is more heavily built upon the shoulders of superstars or stars on the rise.

And that has a way of limiting a team like the Celtics, whose greatest strength lies in their depth.

That's where Irving comes in. He's one of the NBA’s best players and he's shown the ability to elevate his play when the games matter most -- in the playoffs.

In his three trips to the postseason, Irving is a career 23.9 points per game scorer -- better than his career regular-season average of 22.1. He's averaged more points in each of his last two postseason appearances, both of which included trips to the NBA Finals with the Cleveland Cavaliers. That speaks to his ability to score at a high level over an extended period of time, and having a player with that strength is key to any team's postseason success.

What we have seen from Boston in the regular season is what you expect from a team with lots of depth. However, successfully navigating through the rough terrain of the playoffs requires a different kind of talent; the kind of talent that can single-handedly carry a team to victory on any given night.

Without Irving, Boston doesn’t have a player with that pedigree right now.

Jayson Tatum has shown flashes. Ditto for Al Horford, Terry Rozier, Jaylen Brown and others here and there.

But none of them are in the same class as Irving when it comes to putting a team on their back and leading it to victory when the stakes are at their highest.

So as much as the “Boston’s better without Kyrie” crowd will point to the team’s play without Irving, the Celtics' postseason journey won't include a trip to the NBA Finals -- their primary goal all season -- if he's not there.

All in all, I agree with you, but A. Sherrod Blakely's opinion has nothing to do with it. Honestly, the arguments he makes in the piece above are not especially convincing.

The bottom point in bold is my opinion as well.

The only player on this team that has shown the ability to finish is Kyrie. Thats it.

If the team thinks spending $40 million a year on a combination of other players is a better answer, and I think that is a a strong possibility - I would be up to seeing what Danny has up his sleeve. But for this year, as they are today - to suggest the team is better without Kyrie is foolish.

One thing that Sam used to talk about is continuity.  We have had none of that for the entire season so far.  

Gordon is evolving back to being more of himself almost daily.  He is on more often than he is off lately, so it seems like he will be there or close to there come playoff time.

Other players have been on and off (and back on) the injury and/or sick list all season.  Let's hope that we see less of that as the regular season comes to a close.

We're trending better, and because of that, a better playoff seeding is on the close horizon.

See me in April.

gyso

Dboss, you said in your first post that Kyrie was a proven winner. He never won anything before Lebron showed up in Cleveland, Lebron shows up and they win. Lebron sits out on championship level teams for Cleveland and Kyrie plays and they lose nearly every game. Until he actually wins something without Lebron I have a hard time labeling him as a winner.

I know how much talent he has. Before Lebron came home he was shooting the ball and scoring pretty much like he does now, and I thought how great it would be to have him. He can score as good as anyone. Only one thing, does he make his teammates better? So far I would say the answer is no.

I heard sportscasters today say the same exact thing that I have been saying for a while now. He needs to sit back and see how he can intregrate himself into the team players that play without him. He needs to learn how to fit in and get the most out of these guys. Just look at Detroit boxscore at the balance in everything.

He is a killer at times but its like he is the only player in a close game during the last 5 minutes unless he works Horford in.

Great posts by everyone, I enjoyed everyone’s points/opinions. Kyrie is the best ball handler and scorer I have ever seen from the point guard position, his stats don’t tell his whole story as seeing him and all his abilities is greater than his stats, which may pale compared to an Allen Iverson. The team also has enough depth and talent to play well enough without him, which is a good thing. If you look at games played, Kyrie has missed his share of games and some could say he has always had durability issues.

My eye test tells me there is better ball movement without Kyrie, and the defense may be more off balance, as they aren’t as sure who to key on. We still have enough talent and athleticism to exploit those favorable match ups without Kyrie. If GH can get his game together, and he looks great lately right now, we could also be better than last years run without Kyrie. We are too Kyrie centric at times, where he dominates the ball and we rely on him to make the play, score or pass. This approach didn’t work for Steve Nash, but that was a different era, but an era with great point guard play. I love watching Kyrie as much as anyone and the reason Smart in the starting line up works is another facilitator let’s Kyrie be devastating off the ball.

Having said all this I can’t say we are better without all world Kyrie, but I love watching 2 J’s attack and go at it both ends and their growth is key to us winning and contending this year and many years to come and GH playing efficiently only makes everything better. Love the boxscore of tonight’s game, didn’t see the game yet, but if all 3 of GH, JT and JB are on their games we can contend with anyone. There is no definite answer to any of this, we will see it all unfold, hope the team can get and stay healthy and we should be able to play with anyone.

tardust wrote:Dboss,  you said in your first post that Kyrie was a proven winner.  He never won anything before Lebron showed up in Cleveland,  Lebron shows up and they win.  Lebron sits out on championship  level teams for Cleveland and Kyrie plays and they lose nearly every game.  Until he actually wins something without Lebron I have a hard time labeling him as a winner.  

I know how much talent he has. Before Lebron came home he was shooting the ball and scoring pretty much like he does now, and I thought how great it would be to have him.  He can score as good as anyone.  Only one thing,  does he make his teammates better?  So far I would say the answer is no.  

I heard sportscasters today say the same exact thing that I have been saying for a while now. He needs to sit back and see how he can intregrate himself into the team players that play without him.  He needs to learn how to fit in and get the most out of these guys.  Just look at Detroit boxscore at the balance in everything.

He is a killer at times but its like he is the only player in a close game during the last 5 minutes unless he works Horford in.  

Great post, I agree Kyrie has to learn to trust his teammates more and figure out how to get other players going, Bird and Magic came into the league doing this and Jordan only won when he figured this out. Steph Curry as great as he is, shares the ball and plays off the ball better than Kyrie. In the GS game, last 3 minutes, they keyed on Kyrie and he made some spectacular plays/scores, but he also had 2 crucial turnovers....

let him go and wither at NY or play second fiddle with LeBron again at the Lakers

I don't like divas and he seems to be one and like with Rondo his last year here, we play better without him.

The "dream" of a championship THIS year should net deter the team building with the youth and DEPTH Danny has put together.

here is Golden States record in Curry and Thompson's first years together:

23-43
47-35
51-31


Don't blow it Danny by the idea that you need current superstars, when you may have future ones already here.

He hasn't expressed a desire to go to NY or LA, nor has he behaved like a diva. It is downright silly to say " we play better without him,' based on an extremely small sample. Even in last year's playoffs, maybe Kyrie would have made a few shots down the stretch against Cleveland when the youngsters were throwing up bricks. There always has to be a whipping boy around here. Last year it was Morris. This year , it's Kyrie. An argument could be made that guys who think their roles should be bigger are the " divas." Kyrie made the shot that won an NBA  title. Who else on the Celtics has done that? When vets like Kyrie and Morris call out their young teammates publicly,they probably have grown frustrated with private communications. Maybe the young guys should listen.

Kyrie is our ticket to #18. Danny and Brad are not listening to any arguments to the contrary. Period

Statistics - how about these? Kyrie's assists have jumped from a career of 5.6 per game to 6.9 this year, hardly that of a ball hog. His rebounds have gone from 3.6 to 4.9; steals 1.3 to 1.6; 3 point % .390 to .409; and he's averaging 23.6 ppg - almost his playoff level - versus a career ppg average of 22.1.
Kyrie - Gordon - Jayson - Jaylen - Marcus - Marcus - Al - Daniel - Aron ---that's a pretty solid playoff rotation. Sprinkle in some Wanamaker, Semi, and even Yabu and Williams and you have the makings of #18. Nuff said.

I’m with you, we played without Kyrie and our starting backcourt sucked soo bad and we still won on their home court. In other words, we were so far off on our A game and still won in a hostile environment. I’m thinking we are gonna be a load in the playoffs....Sixer game

Most of the time our team has played better with Kyrie out of the lineup and the numbers back that assertion up.
However, when playoffs roll around we need a player like Kyrie who can score the ball when needed and make the big play. At this point he is the only one that we know can do that on a consistent basis.
If we were to lose Kyrie at the end of the season I think it will hurt us a bit but not as much as some think. We need a star and a leader and I believe that there will be a few available to us.
In the long run, yes, I think this team from a talent standpoint needs A Kyrie but it needs a true leader (KG type) even more.
I have said, I love his talent and he IS a great player but as a team first person and a leader....Not so much.

John Karalis @RedsArmy_John
about 55 minutes ago
Ainge on Toucher and Rich re: "better w/o Kyrie": "When I used to play with Bird, I never didn't want Larry Bird on my team, but I got very excited when Larry or Kevin weren't going to play in a game that night because that meant more shots & more opportunities & that was fun."

reply retweet like


bob


.

I'd take Bird or McHale in thier primes right now for Irving.

if the world is flat, maybe their is a way to do a time warp and make that happen!

cowens/oldschool wrote:Hey dboss great post, I just wanted to add while I love how GH performed I can’t agree that he is better than the 2 J’s. Tatum also has a growth curve that will grow and IMO surpass the best of Hayward and right now I think Tatum is better, especially when you consider both ends. On Jaylen I was watching him and Butler very closely and was shocking how well Jaylen matches up with Butler. I used to think Butler was a very athletic wing, well Jaylen is better at all levels of athleticism and I didn’t notice that before and was actually surprised. There was a sequence in 2nd where Butler tried to get past J on the right baseline, couldn’t come close to doing it and threw the ball away. Then next possession Simmons came down lane and J swiped the ball away knocking it out of bounds. You were right on the post game you said Jaylen’s defense was excellent and it was....

Anyway we can go back to Kyrie....

With both the J's still in the development stage each has upside but right now, like today. Hayward skills are more refined on offense. Jaylen is the better defender because he is really quick. Jason has those long arms and can challenge shots as well. Hayward is not particularly fast but as his game continues to accelerate his defense will come from experience. The ability to read and establish position. His defense has actually looked pretty good the last few games unlike the GSW game.

Tatum has tremendous upside but until he becomes a better play maker he is not actually on the same level as Hayward. It is hard to run the offense through Jason because he does not seem to like to pass the ball as much as he should. He has evolved somewhat into an ISO player that takes a lot of bad step back 2 point jumpers.

I have noticed that Jaylen has been trying to create more for his teammates. Both of the J's have work to do on that part of their games.

The most important thing is that all 3 are on the Celtics, at least for this season. I really like all of them.

Jaylen made a great pass into the paint for a basket in tge Philly game. Jayson h add d one good assist too.

Why am I having flashbacks to BDC and the age old Lakers (LA or Minn) argument for which titles actually count vs. BOS title numbers!!

Here's the final argument...It doesn't matter! We're winning #18 this year. Kyrie may be there, he may not be. Regardless Banner #18 for 2019!

db