Re: Post Game Thread - Celtics put LA on the Edge 92-86 6/13/2010

[mrkleen09]

Celtics are 11-0 in the NBA Finals after going up 3 games to 2.

Bring on Game 6.

[sinus007]

Hi,
Finally I've got computer and Internet: vacation on the beach.
As for the last night's game I agree with prev. commenters. Also want to play devil's advocate, kind of. I'm talking about some of the fast breaks that ended up loosing the ball or stopping and allowing LA's defense to get set. Also so many turnovers. At one point the NBC commenters noted that Celtics shot 66% vs Lakers' 33% but were only up by 6 points. Not good. I hope Doc and Co. are addressing these points.
I hope all Celtics will keep their cool: last night Artest showed that he's still a thug shoving KG to the floor when things weren't going his way. I don't want any of the key players to be ejected for fighting.
In general I believe Celtics are very unique team - they don't have a super-star, unlike Miami, Cavs, Magic and LA they rely on several players and base their strategy upon that. In other words, all the above opponents are SOL.
Thank you very much,
AK

[Sam]

Sinus,

Transition basketball has many effects aside from getting easy scores. It can wrest the pace of the game from the comfort zone of the competition. It can fatigue another team operating with a short rotation. When successful in the face of an opponent's run, it can render the opponent dispirited. It can get an opponent's defense out of synch by not giving it an opportunity to get set. Etc.

The turnovers (not nearly all of them caused by the fast break) were unfortunate. But sometimes the tradeoff is worth it. It seemed to me that the Lakers as a team were out of synch for much of the game. How much of that was caused by the early transition game I don't know. But it certainly was good to see all that energy demonstrated by the Celtics.

Sam

[jeb]

sam

good energy from the get go. Body language that said this night is ours. From the opening tip til that great kg,pp,rondo inbounds.

[worcester]

For the record, I'd like to state that the Celtics being 11-0 when up 3-2 in the Finals will have no bearing upon this game. Like when a no-no is in progress in baseball, I doubt that the players or coaches of the Celtics will even mention it. However, I do expect the Celtics and Lakers to give a maximum effort in Game 6. Lucky bounces, injuries, and the refs can all make a difference in the outcome, but if it's strictly a matter of collective will, team play, and overall talent, I say the Celtics win - after which the Lakers will struggle with massive psychological problems for the next 11 months.

[mrkleen09]

For the record, I'd like to state that the Celtics being 11-0 when up 3-2 in the Finals will have no bearing upon this game.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I think history, hard work and respect for the past play a BIG role in the Celtics being tougher mentally and physically than the Lakers. It is irrelevant if Doc posts it up on the chalkboard - the reason the Celtics have that record is because of the hard nose team they have always been....same with the 2010 edition of the team.

It isnt luck or the ball bouncing their way that has put the Celtics in this position - it is hard work, effort, and wanting it more. Those all have a lot to do with the foundation this franchise was built on - so IMO, history plays a big role in the way this series plays out.

[worcester]

Mr Kleen, I agree that the Celtics are a hard nose team and that luck and the ball bouncing is not why they are in the position they are now. It is hard work, effort, and wanting it more - factors I call Celtic Pride. However, 11-0 won't make the Celtics win this series. It'll be hard work, effort, and wanting it more Tuesday night or Thursday night that bring this about. Laker fans and the media were going off on Phil Jackson being 47-0 whenever he won the first game in a playoff serie as if that meant the 2010 championship had consequently now already been won by the Lakers. The Lakers past record after going 1-0 doesn't determine the outcome of this series nor does the 11-0 record of the Celtics after going up 3-2 determine the outcome of this series. Again, i t'll be hard work, effort, and wanting it more - I'm betting on Celtic Pride. W

[mrkleen09]

And you dont think a history of being a blue color team full of players that work hard and play with maximum effort is part of the reason past Celtics teams have gone 11-0 after leading finals series?

Seems like you are arguing against your own point here Worcester.

[worcester]

I do think being a blue collar team with a history of working hard and playing to the max is the biggest reason Celtics teams have gone 11-0 after leading finals series, but I don't think going 11-0 guarantees anything about the future. Only working hard and playing to the max does. The history is made ongoingly by working hard and playing with pride in the present moment. No Celtics team has ever won resting on its laurels, and I don't think this team will rest on its laurels either. I do think they'll play with pride, work hard, play to the max, and - barring injury and an overwhelming number of bad calls - that they will win.

However, I do think the Lakers at times have rested on their own laurels, have read the press clippings about their own greatness at times, and have not played to the max on the court because of a media-inflated sense of self-worth...and that has cost them championships. I can say for certain that Bill Russell out-toughed Wilt Chamberlain mentally and physically and won that 1969 championship for us that way.

Mr. Kleen, in 1965 I was in the finals of the New England High School Wrestling Championship, 147 lb. class. I was a good wrestler, hard working, with a modicum of pride and a decent though not perfect record. My coach new I had some trepidation about wrestling in the finals and slyly told me that my opponent - who I had never heard of since he was from another conference - was actually a J.V. wrestler who had lucked into the finals with some easy draws. All I had to do, my coach told me, was wrestle my normal match, and I'd win. The opposing coach had purportedly told my coach they were happy to go home with the silver medal.

I naively believed my coach and was shocked when during the first period my opponent came at me like a banshee from hell trying to get a takedown. I countered all his moves, and we went into the second period tied 0-0 with me on top. I said to myself enough of this bullcrap and aggressively broke him down turned him over for a 2 point predicament. He wriggled out of the near pin, got an escape, but I was up 2-1. Next period he started off on top and threw everything but the kitchen sink at me trying to turn me over for points or a pin. I resisted with all my might, thinking "I can't allow myself to lose to a Junior Varsity wrestler." Eventually I reversed him and won the match 4-1.

My opponent threw his headgear down and stomped off the mat while the ref raised my arm and indicated I won the gold medal. Only then did my coach let me know that my opponent was 32-0 and undefeated for the past two years.

My point? Pride and effort do play a huge role in winning, but past victories are not prelude to future victories, especially if one is too caught up in one's own past glory. There's no substitute for living in the moment in sports and giving it all you've got.

[Sam]

Worcester,

Is that why you walk with a limp and your tongue hanging out? Only kidding.

I think the work ethic that has historically been part of Celtics culture will always have a bearing on these games. But I agree that what was accomplished by teams of the past will not.

Sam

[mrkleen09]

I do think being a blue collar team with a history of working hard and playing to the max is the biggest reason Celtics teams have gone 11-0 after leading finals series, but I don't think going 11-0 guarantees anything about the future. Only working hard and playing to the max does. The history is made ongoingly by working hard and playing with pride in the present moment. No Celtics team has ever won resting on its laurels, and I don't think this team will rest on its laurels either. I do think they'll play with pride, work hard, play to the max, and - barring injury and an overwhelming number of bad calls - that they will win.

However, I do think the Lakers at times have rested on their own laurels, have read the press clippings about their own greatness at times, and have not played to the max on the court because of a media-inflated sense of self-worth...and that has cost them championships. I can say for certain that Bill Russell out-toughed Wilt Chamberlain mentally and physically and won that 1969 championship for us that way.

Mr. Kleen, in 1965 I was in the finals of the New England High School Wrestling Championship, 147 lb. class. I was a good wrestler, hard working, with a modicum of pride and a decent though not perfect record. My coach new I had some trepidation about wrestling in the finals and slyly told me that my opponent - who I had never heard of since he was from another conference - was actually a J.V. wrestler who had lucked into the finals with some easy draws. All I had to do, my coach told me, was wrestle my normal match, and I'd win. The opposing coach had purportedly told my coach they were happy to go home with the silver medal.

I naively believed my coach and was shocked when during the first period my opponent came at me like a banshee from hell trying to get a takedown. I countered all his moves, and we went into the second period tied 0-0 with me on top. I said to myself enough of this bullcrap and aggressively broke him down turned him over for a 2 point predicament. He wriggled out of the near pin, got an escape, but I was up 2-1. Next period he started off on top and threw everything but the kitchen sink at me trying to turn me over for points or a pin. I resisted with all my might, thinking "I can't allow myself to lose to a Junior Varsity wrestler." Eventually I reversed him and won the match 4-1.

My opponent threw his headgear down and stomped off the mat while the ref raised my arm and indicated I won the gold medal. Only then did my coach let me know that my opponent was 32-0 and undefeated for the past two years.

My point? Pride and effort do play a huge role in winning, but past victories are not prelude to future victories, especially if one is too caught up in one's own past glory. There's no substitute for living in the moment in sports and giving it all you've got.

That is a nice story....glad you won.

I think it is a given that the Celtics arent living on their past glory (unless by past you mean 24 months ago) - but to think that the current Celtics are not in the Lakers heads right now, because of what they did in 2008 is short sighted. There is a strong sense of pride that comes when you slip on the green and white uniform - a pride that most certainly was forged by the success of those who came before you - so while past wins dont guarantee anything, they certainly are a lot better to have in your memory bank then losses.

[cowens/oldschool]

kleen
I remember being a kid and reading an article on the Celtics in SI in the 70's,the article was on Paul Silas and in it he talked of Celtic Pride,I remember it vividly because it was the first time I ever heard or read of Celtic Pride.In the article Silas spoke of how he had been a veteran in the league and heard of CP,but thought nothing of it,thought it was BS.....then once he got here and met Red and the old veterans that were still around,he GOT it and felt so lucky to be a part of this.It really made him play harder and within all the team concepts.So for those that don't get it and hate us,whatever,its indeed very real and always has been.

bob
As usual some great posts,I was banned from the Globe when the Artest trade happened,but was thinking it was NOT a good fit,to my amazement it has exceeded my expectations in a BAD way for the Lakers.I didn't think Artests offense would be this feeble,the Triangle is obviously not a good fit for him.Instead of playing on instinct,Artest is thinking way too much and can't get in any flow or rythmn.....hes never been this bad offensively.Look at the Lakers personel,Fisher is no speedster,hes a spot up shooter,Kobe has to pick his spots now,he can't run like he could 5 years ago,Artest is a slow power SF.It has been so much fun watching us out run and out intangible them.
Our depth is so apparent and each player has his defined role and plays to that strength.The Lakers own roles and identity is coming into question on their own team.We are playing with such a purpose as the series has gone longer and they are much more unsure and in disarray......our defense up in their faces has alot to do with that.How many times have we seen Rondo strip Kobe from behind?Never seen that before in the Finals and it seems to happen at the worst of times for them and at just the right time for us.This is gonna be over in six.

cow

[bobheckler]

kleen
I remember being a kid and reading an article on the Celtics in SI in the 70's,the article was on Paul Silas and in it he talked of Celtic Pride,I remember it vividly because it was the first time I ever heard or read of Celtic Pride.In the article Silas spoke of how he had been a veteran in the league and heard of CP,but thought nothing of it,thought it was BS.....then once he got here and met Red and the old veterans that were still around,he GOT it and felt so lucky to be a part of this.It really made him play harder and within all the team concepts.So for those that don't get it and hate us,whatever,its indeed very real and always has been.

bob
As usual some great posts,I was banned from the Globe when the Artest trade happened,but was thinking it was NOT a good fit,to my amazement it has exceeded my expectations in a BAD way for the Lakers.I didn't think Artests offense would be this feeble,the Triangle is obviously not a good fit for him.Instead of playing on instinct,Artest is thinking way too much and can't get in any flow or rythmn.....hes never been this bad offensively.Look at the Lakers personel,Fisher is no speedster,hes a spot up shooter,Kobe has to pick his spots now,he can't run like he could 5 years ago,Artest is a slow power SF.It has been so much fun watching us out run and out intangible them.
Our depth is so apparent and each player has his defined role and plays to that strength.The Lakers own roles and identity is coming into question on their own team.We are playing with such a purpose as the series has gone longer and they are much more unsure and in disarray......our defense up in their faces has alot to do with that.How many times have we seen Rondo strip Kobe from behind?Never seen that before in the Finals and it seems to happen at the worst of times for them and at just the right time for us.This is gonna be over in six.

cow

cow,

I wouldn't throw dirt on Artest in the triangle just yet. I've heard it takes a minimum of 2 years to really learn it. Watching Gasol and how much more effective he was last year over 2008 and how much more effective he was/is this year over last year makes me a believer. Won't help them this year, but he's signed up for a few more. Lack of comfort with the triangle doesn't effect his free throw shooting though. His two bricks in the last minute or so hurt LA. It would have been a 3 point game if he had hit those.

Nevertheless, I agree with your points about Fisher, etc. They are slower. They do not run, as a team, as much.

bob

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