ECF Game 2 vs Heat

I knew it was a bad sign when they trimmed the lead to 13 at the half, we were too lackadaisical even with the lead, it should have been 20, but we were careless and need more poise and urgency. Then 3rd quarter started and this time I won’t rip Brad, let’s just say Brad and the players don’t know how to run an effective offense against a zone, it didn’t hurt Miami that Tatum’s outside game was off. Lackadaisical turnovers killed us tonight, how many times did we turn it over on the in bounds and at the worst times? On offense they are kind of rope a doping us, getting us to commit to perimeter defense, then bam moving the ball quickly for inside scores/dunks, I think they practiced this before and we have a little lapse and that’s all it takes.

Having said all that, we had the lead in the 4th in both games, but they were more poised on both ends, creating turnovers and us being careless and sloppy, my eye test tells me they are more comfortable and playing much faster at the crunch time part of the game. I don’t think Brad has enough time to figure out how to counter/handle this zone, to our credit we collapsed but still competed/battled hard enough to take the lead back in 4th with our best player off from his specialty. Spolstra is doing an amazing breathtaking job coaching a unique system to his players strengths that I may have never seen before. That first half our talent stood out, 2 such winnable games, but we couldn’t sustain it, give them credit, they overcame the faster more athletic team, figured out a way to bottle us up with their defense. Our defense has so many better defensive players, but theirs frustrates the hell out of our offense.

Wow!! Jimmy Butler just said on the post game he thinks the Celtics are the more talented team....

Once again Boston squanders a lead.  This time by 17 points as the Heat took them to school in every way imaginable.

Once again Boston could not operate against their zone and our weak P N R defense was exposed for all to see.

We hoped they would clean things up but they didn't.  Instead they turned the ball over 20 times including 5 each from Walker and Tatum who continue to make bone head plays.  

I knew when Kanter got his 2nd rotation into the game it would be dreadful.  He can't play defense and he looks out of shape.  Theis was not much better.  It seems everyone was missing rotations and while the Heat fought hard for offensive rebounds we were out of the play.

We gave up 26 points off of turnovers.

Down the stretch we collapsed.

The Celtics have managed to put themselves in a 0-2 hole.
 
The Celtics may have more pure talent but the Heat are clearly the superior team.

Can Boston get back in this thing?  I doubt it.  If they cannot play offense against their zone without reverting to turning the ball over and taking a hefty dose of ill advised shots, we are done!  If they cannot defend the P N R we are done.  

Brad's post game comments leaves very little room for optimism.
 
'"This isn't about zones and defenses and offenses, we just got to be better"

This game and the way we coughed it up very Clipperish like- again really upset me.
However, with that being said, I still think we can get even and even win the series if we play to our potential every second of damn near every minute.
The C’s mental toughness outside of Smart is questionable at best. I’m cautiously optimistic that they can turn it around. The talent is there but where that heads are at is what’s going to make the difference.
We are in deep trouble but not dead-yet.

I just wrote on the game on post that I felt that this was one of the worst games I have seen Jason Tatum play regardless of what the stats may show. He really angered me at times. He is trying to take the easy way out of things, and it is backfiring on him and the team. All of a sudden it is all about him.

I am not just blaming him, they all shoulder some responsibility, Smart took some really stupid shots, but, they were daring him to shoot. They will take their chances letting him get open. This is where Hayward would be the bigger threat on the floor. I hate to even mention him, I really thought they would clear him today and even give him 20 minutes out there. He can’t be in any worse shape than Kanter who couldn’t even breathe out there. I am sure he is in much better shape than that, he is too proud not to be.

It is a moot point now, winning 4 out of 5 against these guys is going to be almost impossible, we have made them feel really good about themselves. They are playing loose and together. All of a sudden, the Celtics do not look like my team I have been watching for the year.

I guess I am just down about this, I cannot believe they are in this position, I thought for sure they would win tonight

See you all on line and at the next game

We have been playing without a full deck.  

We need GH.    We just do not gave enough against the them.  

Anybody notice the upside down zone with the bigs playing up top.  That was a nice wrinkle that they threw at us down the streach.

Our guys were very upset after the game especially Marcus.  They will need to pull themselves together and go out and win game 3.

dboss wrote:We have been playing without a full deck.  

We need GH.    We just do not gave enough against the them.  

Anybody notice the upside down zone with the bigs playing up top.  That was a nice wrinkle that they threw at us down the streach.

Our guys were very upset after the game especially Marcus.  They will need to pull themselves together and go out and win game 3.

Absolutely I noticed that and it worked and they got defections and steals off that, part of what I meant when I said what a great coaching job Spolstra has been doing and that a lot of his innovations I have never seen before.

Once again, nothing has changed. We've lost two in a row in these playoffs before...thank you TOR. It appears in our odyssey that we now prefer to come right up against the nuclear/Grim Reaper option. The ultimate flair for the dramatic to date. The G3 flair will indeed be a dud and not even light or it will be your most unimaginable 4th of July presentation and celebration the world has ever seen.

If we win Saturday, we live another day. If we lose, we know the probability of moving on. Zero. Pretty clear.

Is there time to play the Face-Time Remote Russell card?! Might be too cheesy at this point, but they need something intangible or someone remote to conjure up the Celtic Pride we all know and love and know what is capable from that. We can't afford to keep camping out in the ECF.

Nothing really else to say. Just do.

db

Miami has been playing well, only lost one game in the playoffs this year and that was to the team with the best record in the regular season.

I was shocked when on the zoom meet, most thought the Heat would be an easy out. But I figured maybe I was giving them too much credit.

I heard Brandon Tierney say on his sports show yesterday something to the effect of:

think what you want about Jimmy Butler and where he falls in the NBA hierarchy, but every where he's played when he left that team got worst.

Interesting take, Butler certainly isn't about making friends it seems. Maybe he's about winning and playing hard.

Reminds me of Smart.

Hi,
It saddens me to say that if you didn't watch Game1 you can watch Game2 and see what happened in Game1. And vice versa.
Pathetic.
How many games coach and players have to play against zone defense to figure out ways to defeat it.
I think that unless they have some kind of epiphany today or tomorrow or some miracle in Orlando (it's Magic Kingdom, after all) happens, this series is over.

AK

One of the first thing players learn when they first start playing organized ball is zone defense, because the level of talent is low and uneven so you cannot just tell kids to go out there and "man up".  They learn how to play it, they learn how to break it.  Toronto threw zones at us in their series and Miami has been throwing them at us this series and we're playing like we've never seen them before and we know that Brad worked on improving how we deal with zones in the Toronto series and during the layoff between these series. In one ear and out the other. Fatigue, after that grueling Toronto series? Is he losing the players or are they just gutless (Marcus Smart an obvious exception)?

Brad gave a mid-game interview and you could see the steam coming off his head he was so pissed at our lack of effort on both ends.  There's an article posted about Smart having a tantrum, as he should.  It was disgraceful.  It's one thing when a Heat player (e.g. Butler) tips a ball away.  It's another thing when he's the first one to get to it and take possession and it's a whole other thing when the third player to run down the court is another Heat player (e.g. Crowder).  That means that whomever was Crowder's man just stood there and watched Butler chase down the ball and didn't move to get back on defense until after Crowder had already passed him.  There is NO excuse for that.  None.  

They took 90 fgas.  43 were 3s.  They actually shot a worse fg% from 3 than us, 32.6% vs 35.7%, but they took 15 more.  One of the reasons why is because their pnr was so good, and vice versa.  Robinson was hot and that meant we couldn't leave him (although we did, repeatedly).  Our perimeter defense sucked and Bam rolled with ease.  Kanter might be the worst pnr defender I've ever seen, but I can't lay it all on him.  We weren't moving our feet in front of the penetrator and we weren't rotating to help pick him up, in part because we didn't want to leave Robinson alone at the arc.

We had 20 turnovers.  Tatum and Walker had 5 each.  11 steals for them vs 5 for us.  What really hurt us is that the steals and most of the turnovers were live balls.  We gave up 26 points off of our turnovers and that can only happen with live balls.


bob


.

Ugh

Probably already said but...

Basketball 101; you beat a zone by shooting over it. You also need someone who can get offensive boards, hence the 4-out offense.

But... Celtics couldn't board.

Sure, the zone is a factor, but the ugly bottom line is the Celtics got outplayed. Outplayed.

So far this series, and to a good degree the Toronto series, has showed what everyone knows. The key to Boston reaching the top of the hill... BIGS.

Big, tall, long reach, drive-your-pickup to work, carry a lunch-pail, get low, get dirty, get bloody, rebound, defend, score in the low-post, bigs. Bigs.

Shooters? Got 'em. Playmakers? OK there, could use another. Need? Bigs. Dinosaur, find 'em in the tarpit bigs. Draft? Bigs. Trade for? Bigs. Free agent? Bigs.

Say it with me. Bigs.

Enjoy your Friday.

kdp59 wrote:Miami has been playing well, only lost one game in the playoffs this year and that was to the team with the best record in the regular season.

I was shocked when on the zoom meet, most thought the Heat would be an easy out. But I figured maybe I was giving them too much credit.

I heard Brandon Tierney say on his sports show yesterday something to the effect of:

think what you want about Jimmy Butler and where he falls in the NBA hierarchy,  but every where he's played when he left that team got worst.

Interesting take, Butler certainly isn't about making friends it seems. Maybe he's about winning and playing hard.

Reminds me of Smart.

kdp59

I thought that the battle won against the Raptors set the Celtics up for a favorable ECF outcome.  i thought we would be better prepared to take their zones apart.  I thought that those disappointing game 3,4 and 6 losses would have helped this team be ready to meet similar challenges.

Apparently I over estimated the talent comparison as being the most important advantage for Boston.  The Heat play better as a team and their coach is way more creative on both offense and defense.  While our team plays up top they are setting screens and getting to the rim.  While their team has used variations of zone defense to stymie our point of attack we have not figured out how to take anyone out of their game.  Our offense looks as stale as day old bread.  It is so predictable. Our players simply have to execute better and that really begins with decision making.  Brad seems to favor a more conceptual approach on offense but this team really needs more micro management and a lot more discipline.

NYCelt wrote:Probably already said but...

Basketball 101; you beat a zone by shooting over it. You also need someone who can get offensive boards, hence the 4-out offense.

But... Celtics couldn't board.

Sure, the zone is a factor, but the ugly bottom line is the Celtics got outplayed. Outplayed.

So far this series, and to a good degree the Toronto series, has showed what everyone knows. The key to Boston reaching the top of the hill... BIGS.

Big, tall, long reach, drive-your-pickup to work, carry a lunch-pail, get low, get dirty, get bloody, rebound, defend, score in the low-post, bigs. Bigs.

Shooters? Got 'em. Playmakers? OK there, could use another. Need? Bigs. Dinosaur, find 'em in the tarpit bigs. Draft? Bigs. Trade for? Bigs. Free agent? Bigs.

Say it with me. Bigs.

Enjoy your Friday.

NYCelt,

Miami, 38 rebounds. Celtics 41.

They got 11 offensive rebounds to only 6 for us.


90 fgas for them, 76 for us. 14 more fgas by them. Some of them would be from the 5 additional possessions they got from the offensive rebounds but most would come from the additional opportunities given them by 11 more turnovers by us and 7 more steals.

Who are their bigs, besides Adubayo? Kelly Olynyk? He grabbed 2 in 13 minutes. They have no player listed at center, even Bam is called a PF. Their offensive rebounding wasn't due to our lack of bigs, it was from the lack of effort by everyone else. Offensive rebounding is about effort. Who wants it more? Ganas. They had it, we didn't.


bob


.

NYCelt wrote:Probably already said but...

Basketball 101; you beat a zone by shooting over it. You also need someone who can get offensive boards, hence the 4-out offense.

But... Celtics couldn't board.

Sure, the zone is a factor, but the ugly bottom line is the Celtics got outplayed. Outplayed.

So far this series, and to a good degree the Toronto series, has showed what everyone knows. The key to Boston reaching the top of the hill... BIGS.

Big, tall, long reach, drive-your-pickup to work, carry a lunch-pail, get low, get dirty, get bloody, rebound, defend, score in the low-post, bigs. Bigs.

Shooters? Got 'em. Playmakers? OK there, could use another. Need? Bigs. Dinosaur, find 'em in the tarpit bigs. Draft? Bigs. Trade for? Bigs. Free agent? Bigs.

Say it with me. Bigs.

Enjoy your Friday.

NYCelt

I would add that you also have to have a guy that can flash into the middle of the zones to help collapse it. We did try that a few time last night. What I am seeing is that Kemba Walker really struggles passing the ball out of pressure. On PNR defense is also being compromised because Kemba is getting switched off on their big and then no one is coming over to help against the roller.
(Bam) We cannot expect the undersized Walker to succeed in that position.

Yes this team could use an upgrade at 5, a legit big.

Toronto showed how to beat the Celtics. They couldn't quite pull it off - with Siakam stinking up the joint, they just didn't have enough talent.

I don't know what the deal is. Maybe Brad is not doing a good job teaching the team how to break a zone? Maybe players aren't listening? Maybe our personnel is just not good against zones?? I don't know.

We should not underestimate Miami. They are a talented team, and it seems like almost every player has the right mental make-up to thrive in the play-offs. Dragic is a good player - last night he looked like one of the best in the NBA. Butler is actually under-rated - he is a winner. That Robinson kid - no one wanted him, but he shoots lights-out. Bam is a force. Players like Crowder and Olynyk are tough, solid role players. When our starters go cold and/or get tight, our bench is so thin that Brad has no choice but to leave them in (maybe GH's return will help). As BobH says, grizzled vets win playoffs, and we are still a baby-faced team. So, when Butler says we have more talent, I think he is trying to play us, lull our team into thinking we will skate by on talent alone - I hope our players see through this Jedi mind trick. Gotta give Riley some credit here, he built a winner.

I don't know about Smart's tantrum. My first reaction was like many other's on this board - good! someone needs to be a leader and get this team to play the right way. The problem is, Marcus is part of the problem - he also takes too many early clock ill advised 3s. If you are going to talk the talk, be sure you walk the walk. I get the sense everyone is frustrated - no one is taking these losses cavalierly.

Having said all that, the Heat having been playing out of their minds throughout the playoffs (10 and 1). Seems like every loose ball bounces their way. They are due for a return to earth. On the other hand, although we have dominated at various points, I haven't seen a game where every Celtic is "on". Similarly, I feel like we have had a lot of bad luck. So, its not over. If we get into a zone where everyone is clicking, we are the better team. Even if we continue as is, even just a little luck would swing games in our favor. And, hopefully Gordon will be back - he would definitely help break the zone with his high BBIQ and consistent good shooting. All is not lost folks...

bobheckler wrote:

NYCelt wrote:Probably already said but...

Basketball 101; you beat a zone by shooting over it. You also need someone who can get offensive boards, hence the 4-out offense.

But... Celtics couldn't board.

Sure, the zone is a factor, but the ugly bottom line is the Celtics got outplayed. Outplayed.

So far this series, and to a good degree the Toronto series, has showed what everyone knows. The key to Boston reaching the top of the hill... BIGS.

Big, tall, long reach, drive-your-pickup to work, carry a lunch-pail, get low, get dirty, get bloody, rebound, defend, score in the low-post, bigs. Bigs.

Shooters? Got 'em. Playmakers? OK there, could use another. Need? Bigs. Dinosaur, find 'em in the tarpit bigs. Draft? Bigs. Trade for? Bigs. Free agent? Bigs.

Say it with me. Bigs.

Enjoy your Friday.

NYCelt,

Miami, 38 rebounds.  Celtics 41.

They got 11 offensive rebounds to only 6 for us.


90 fgas for them, 76 for us.  14 more fgas by them.  Some of them would be from the 5 additional possessions they got from the offensive rebounds but most would come from the additional opportunities given them by 11 more turnovers by us and 7 more steals.

Who are their bigs, besides Adubayo?  Kelly Olynyk?  He grabbed 2 in 13 minutes.  They have no player listed at center, even Bam is called a PF.  Their offensive rebounding wasn't due to our lack of bigs, it was from the lack of effort by everyone else.  Offensive rebounding is about effort.  Who wants it more? Ganas.  They had it, we didn't.


bob


.

Bob, Bam is a physical mismatch against all of our bigs. He's physically stronger and a lot quicker than most centers. However they collectively fought for position on the offensive glass while we were a step behind in our reaction. Funny but one thing leads to another. It seems they got all the long rebounds. They won the 50/50 balls. That is effort.

This is the 3rd game we have lost to them in the bubble. Now they believe they can beat us by outworking us. A game 3 win by the Celtics may be the medicine to get us on track.

Bob,

It's exactly those offensive boards that I'm talking about.

Bam is a big, plays bigger than his size too. Outworks and out-hustles most. Kelly has a seasonal paint allergy, so we won't count him as more than relief. Butler, while not a big, is also out-muscling everyone he comes up against on the interior.

There may be teams that can get away without traditional bigs, but I don't think the current Celtics roster can. Can't get those O boards easily if you're out on the perimeter in a 4 - 1. Theis is an excellent relief pitcher, Kanter is great on the offensive end only, and RWIII shows promise. More RWIII minutes might have had a positive impact last night, hard to say.

More ganas for the Heat you say? Yes, you're 100% right. Boston got outplayed.

Overall I still think the missing component, the balancing piece to the current roster, is a big or two. Give me the kind of big, boarding, defending, nasty PF/C that would make our man Cowens smile and say "that's what I'm talkin' about!" Doesn't have to be a superstar. Give me Marcus Smart at 6' 11" or more, no less than 6' 9" with around a 74" wingspan. That, I believe, is what is needed.

Regards

Shamrock1000 wrote:Toronto showed how to beat the Celtics. They couldn't quite pull it off - with Siakam stinking up the joint, they just didn't have enough talent.

I don't know what the deal is. Maybe Brad is not doing a good job teaching the team how to break a zone? Maybe players aren't listening? Maybe our personnel is just not good against zones?? I don't know.

We should not underestimate Miami. They are a talented team, and it seems like almost every player has the right mental make-up to thrive in the play-offs. Dragic is a good player - last night he looked like one of the best in the NBA. Butler is actually under-rated - he is a winner. That Robinson kid - no one wanted him, but he shoots lights-out. Bam is a force. Players like Crowder and Olynyk are tough, solid role players. When our starters go cold and/or get tight, our bench is so thin that Brad has no choice but to leave them in (maybe GH's return will help). As BobH says, grizzled vets win playoffs, and we are still a baby-faced team. So, when Butler says we have more talent, I think he is trying to play us, lull our team into thinking we will skate by on talent alone - I hope our players see through this Jedi mind trick. Gotta give Riley some credit here, he built a winner.

I don't know about Smart's tantrum. My first reaction was like many other's on this board - good! someone needs to be a leader and get this team to play the right way. The problem is, Marcus is part of the problem - he also takes too many early clock ill advised 3s. If you are going to talk the talk, be sure you walk the walk. I get the sense everyone is frustrated - no one is taking these losses cavalierly.

Having said all that, the Heat having been playing out of their minds throughout the playoffs (10 and 1). Seems like every loose ball bounces their way. They are due for a return to earth. On the other hand, although we have dominated at various points, I haven't seen a game where every Celtic is "on". Similarly, I feel like we have had a lot of bad luck. So, its not over. If we get into a zone where everyone is clicking, we are the better team. Even if we continue as is, even just a little luck would swing games in our favor. And, hopefully Gordon will be back - he would definitely help break the zone with his high BBIQ and consistent good shooting. All is not lost folks...

So what did Toronto show, I think they are both doing the beating differently?

cowens/oldschool wrote:

Shamrock1000 wrote:Toronto showed how to beat the Celtics. They couldn't quite pull it off - with Siakam stinking up the joint, they just didn't have enough talent.

I don't know what the deal is. Maybe Brad is not doing a good job teaching the team how to break a zone? Maybe players aren't listening? Maybe our personnel is just not good against zones?? I don't know.

We should not underestimate Miami. They are a talented team, and it seems like almost every player has the right mental make-up to thrive in the play-offs. Dragic is a good player - last night he looked like one of the best in the NBA. Butler is actually under-rated - he is a winner. That Robinson kid - no one wanted him, but he shoots lights-out. Bam is a force. Players like Crowder and Olynyk are tough, solid role players. When our starters go cold and/or get tight, our bench is so thin that Brad has no choice but to leave them in (maybe GH's return will help). As BobH says, grizzled vets win playoffs, and we are still a baby-faced team. So, when Butler says we have more talent, I think he is trying to play us, lull our team into thinking we will skate by on talent alone - I hope our players see through this Jedi mind trick. Gotta give Riley some credit here, he built a winner.

I don't know about Smart's tantrum. My first reaction was like many other's on this board - good! someone needs to be a leader and get this team to play the right way. The problem is, Marcus is part of the problem - he also takes too many early clock ill advised 3s. If you are going to talk the talk, be sure you walk the walk. I get the sense everyone is frustrated - no one is taking these losses cavalierly.

Having said all that, the Heat having been playing out of their minds throughout the playoffs (10 and 1). Seems like every loose ball bounces their way. They are due for a return to earth. On the other hand, although we have dominated at various points, I haven't seen a game where every Celtic is "on". Similarly, I feel like we have had a lot of bad luck. So, its not over. If we get into a zone where everyone is clicking, we are the better team. Even if we continue as is, even just a little luck would swing games in our favor. And, hopefully Gordon will be back - he would definitely help break the zone with his high BBIQ and consistent good shooting. All is not lost folks...

So what did Toronto show, I think they are both doing the beating differently?

That the Celtics don't do well against zones; yes, the Heat have mostly stuck to a more traditional 2-3 zone whereas the Raptors used less common box-and-one and/or triangle-and-two, but they showed that while the Celtics are great against man, they get befuddled by a zone. And, while Miami hasn't used that zone much in the play-offs, they used it a lot in the regular season. Celtics shoulda coulda been ready. Finally, Toronto showed that if you hang around, and start to come back, the Celtics get tight and can no longer execute.

True

How about giving lady luck her share of credit for the Celtic predicament. If Hayward plays the last 2 games then this negative conversation is probably not taking place. A loss of a star player in the playoffs can sure be a game killer - especially when the bench has so little to offer. Teams in the past have comeback from an 0-2 deficit to win a series.

swish

Sure Swish. With a healthy GH we sweep Miami the rest of the way.

swish wrote:How about giving lady luck her share of credit for the Celtic predicament. If Hayward plays the last 2 games then this negative conversation is probably not taking place.  A loss of a star player in the playoffs can sure be a game killer - especially when the bench has so little to offer. Teams in the past have comeback from an 0-2 deficit to win a series.

  swish

For sure. Even without considering GH, it seems luck has been against the Celtics since the beginning of the Toronto series. Last night they got spanked fair and square, but if not for a once-a-decade block by Bam, we would have won the first game, and then the conversation here would have been a whole lot different.

True rock, good points