Should Danny Mostly 'Stand Pat'?

We're all talking about everything from overturning the apple cart to gutting our center corp to trading a key piece like Gordon Hayward, but should we?  Consider these things:

1.  We absolutely destroyed Philly, swept them in 4, even though on paper are longer and more talented us at a couple of key positions.  Granted they didn't have Simmons for most of the games, but we didn't have Hayward neither, and I think Brad has deciphered Ben Simmons.

2.  We beat the reigning champs, Toronto, with their COY Nick Nurse.  It went to 7.  One of those games we could have/should have won but OG Anunoby hit that buzzer beating 3 from the corner.  Otherwise this series would have been over in 6, maybe even 5.

3.  We lost to Miami in 6, but we blew some leads that we shouldn't have lost.  We were up healthy double digits, like 17 points, in more than one game and ended up losing those games.  Did Bam have a lot to do with that?  Sure, but it was mostly Herro and Robinson and they have nothing to do with our centers, except that our centers were forced to step up on their penetrations caused by our lousy perimeter defense.  Those poor pnr defenses are why Bam got so many dunks.

A healthy Hayward, a more experienced Playoff Kemba (which we have now) and maybe this story has a different ending.  Our centers didn't cost us the series against MUCH bigger Joel Embiid, nor did they get swamped by Gasol and Ibaka. So, when you look at our playoffs in toto, are we really needing a big shake up as we are stressing over?  Maybe all we need is a few small tweaks, especially since Kemba/Hayward/GWill/RWill are all more playoff battle-tested?

Multiple choice not allowed, vote cancelling is.  If you pick 'Other' please explain what you'd change and why it's neither major nor minor.


Bob


.

I believe the bench needs to be strengthened, and we need a center we can count on to play physically with the big boys. The end of the bench was useless. Disappointing to say the least.
I have been talking about a "gunslinger" for years. A guy who comes off the bench, gets his shots up in a bunch, not complain when it is time to go back to the bench and give us a push when we need it

I don't know what Danny will do with this year's picks, but we do not need any more kids. I am for keeping the two Williams boys, and Langford, Wanamaker may be too expensive, but if there is a way to keep him, ????

This team does not have major flaws.  For crying out loud we made it to the final 4.  But I think we need more than just a shooter.  I have seen enough championship clubs to pretty much know what pieces need to be in place.  We are not a championship club yet.

We need an upgrade at center.  There is no way around it.  Daniel Theis is a very impactful guy and a solid fit for the Celtics but just not solid enough.  He got freakin smoked by Bam in the playoffs.  If we made it to the finals Theis would have been smoked by Anthony Davis.  

Kemba Walker is a weak PNR defender and because of that our entire defense faltered and fell down like a row of dominoes.

So if we are looking for an almost complete team maybe you just add a shooter or just upgrade the center or replace Kemba with a 2-way PG.

Any one of those things gets you closer but the competition next year will be fierce in the East and in the West.  

Adding a shooter is the easiest thing to do.  Danny should have done that back in February in anticipation that one of our guys would in fact get injured and underperform.

Upgrading the center would be difficult unless the Celtics are willing to part with a key guy and a pick or two.

Finding a PG that can run the PNR offense and also defend against the PNR offense is equally difficult because Kemba has a very expensive contract.

I think you can get away with upgrading the 5 and adding a shooter if you still have Marcus Smart after the dust settles.  So I think 2 out of 3 major needs may get us there.  But if we want a killer team all 3 issues need to be addressed.  IMO.

I said other. Here are my thoughts. Our core is very young and very good, and I think they will be even better next year. I like our core. I would consider moving Gordon for the right piece though. I doubt we'd get a better player back, but we might get a player who is more valuable to this team. Gordon plays the same positions as our most talented core members, so as long as they are playing big minutes, we won't get Gordon's full worth. And, its not just getting Gordon minutes, its opportunities. Gordon is better than a 3rd or 4th option, which is what he is on our team. I just don't like paying 1st option money to a third or 4th option player. Also, for Gordon's sake, I would like to see him an a position where he can shine again. All that being said, I don't think we would get the type of player I'd want.

The bench is another story. You cannot win a championship with the worst bench in the league. Especially with a young core who will have off nights and sometimes need a solid bench to pick up the slack. Bench has to improve.

I'd be ok with signing Baynes and drafting Nesmith.

If we can do some more minor trades for a veteran shooter I'd love to add him too, so as not to put as much pressure on Nesmith.

e.g. Lou Williams - $8M, last contract year. 33 years old, but we don't need him forever.

I'd love Terrence Ross but he's 29, in his prime, and made $11.5M last year.

Joe Harris of the Nets made $7.6M last year. UFA.

McBuckets? $7.33M in last year? Not athletic but a smart player and can shoot.


Bob


.

after reading dboss points here, I am more convinced that trying to work a deal with the Pacers would fill a lot of our needs.

IF...and its a BIG IF, but IF the Pacers would take Hayward, Robert Williams and #14 pick for Turner and Oladipo .............................. that would seem to fill most of the needs listed.

Yes Oladipo is coming off an injury and will be on an expiring deal (just like Hayward is). but we get a legit NBA big man to pair up with Theis (check that off).

Oladipo can provide shooting off the bench and if Kema is getting beat up on defense in games we can play Smart and Oladipo in the back court instead.

our wing depth would be a bit less with Tatum and Brown the main two of course, but Romeo will have to step up in his second year.

possible roster:

C- Turner
C/PF-Theis
C- Poirier
PF-Grant W.
PF- Semi
SF/PF- Tatum
SF/SG- Brown
SF/SG- Romeo
SG- Oladipo
SG- Green or Edwards
SG/PG- Smart
PG- Kemba
PG- Wanamaker
PG- T.Waters

one roster spot open for either the #26 or 30 pick...maybe get a player like I. Stewart, V. Carey, Z. Nnaji or D. Oturu. At least two of those should be for Ainge to draft.

Lest we forget, this is the guy who makes the decisions and he said "we're not good enough". Not "we got a bad break with Gordon injuring his ankle" or "Kemba's knee just needed a little more time" but rather "not good enough".




Bob


.

Other.

We need just a couple tweaks and we are set.

1. Sign Baynes with the MLE.  Let Kanter walk or trade him.  At center, go with Theis, Baynes and R.Williams.  Tacko comes along for the ride.

2. Clear out the end of the bench.  Gone: Semi, Waters, Green, VPO.  

3. Keep Wannamaker.  Give Edwards another season, or at least until the deadline (if such a thing even exists in the Covid-NBA).  Draft a PG that has height and PG skills.  Kemba, Smart and Wannamaker can run the show.  The draft pick can develop on the fly.

4. Hope that R.Williams, G.Williams, Langford, Edwards and even Tacko can take the next leap.

I just realized the Pacers have no first round pick this year.

so maybe Hayward, Robert Williams and #14 might make them take a look.

add #30 too if need be, I say

Other.

I'm not sure what would qualify as mostly standing pat, but there are just a couple of obvious needs.

1 or more bigs that can defend and board.

A higher quality bench, including a PG.

The core is great and I think should stay intact, but the other needs could change out 6 or more players.

My middle ground 'other' then comes from my thinking Tatum, Smart, Brown, Walker and Hayward should stay, but everyone else is highly expendable.

kdp59 wrote:I just realized the Pacers have no first round pick this year.

so maybe Hayward, Robert Williams and #14 might make them take a look.

add #30 too if need be, I say

kdp59

For what?

dboss wrote:

kdp59 wrote:I just realized the Pacers have no first round pick this year.

so maybe Hayward, Robert Williams and #14 might make them take a look.

add #30 too if need be, I say

kdp59

For what?

sorry, I meant in a trade for Turner and Oladipo.

I'm not saying it is going to happen (how could I know), but the more I look at it the more I think it IS a possible deal that works for both teams.

of course Ainge has to feel he needs to make a bigger move than just shifting some pieces around next season. so who knows what he thinks about that.

Turner
Tatum
Brown
Smart
Kemba

as starters, with bench (in order of minutes played)

Oladipo
Theis
Wanamaker
Grant W.
Langford or Semi

kdp59 wrote:

dboss wrote:

kdp59 wrote:I just realized the Pacers have no first round pick this year.

so maybe Hayward, Robert Williams and #14 might make them take a look.

add #30 too if need be, I say

kdp59

For what?

sorry, I meant in a trade for Turner and Oladipo.

I'm not saying it is going to happen (how could I know), but the more I look at it the more I think it IS a possible deal that works for both teams.

of course Ainge has to feel he needs to  make a bigger move than just shifting some pieces around next season.  so who knows what he thinks about that.

Turner
Tatum
Brown
Smart
Kemba

as starters, with  bench (in order of minutes played)

Oladipo
Theis
Wanamaker
Grant W.
Langford or Semi

kdp59

The problem is I like RW at center better than Grant Williams so I would keep one over the other if I had to make a choice. Olidipo is a injury risk as well as a flight risk. You do not have to include picks to make the trade work. Why pay someone to take GH? Indy would really have to want GH to make this trade work AND GH would have to really want to go to Indy

Boston cannot trade GH before the draft. They do not control his contract.

Overall these factors make a trade with Indy more unlikely.

GH coming back into the bubble shows a commitment to the Celtics. He was well below average though because of the injury.

The bottom line IMO, this trade will not work because it is not going to take place.

Although it's one of the more popular rumors, because Boston needs a center and Turner is stuck on Indy's bench, there would almost have to be a different route than including Hayward and Oladipo. Exchanging injuries and large contracts doesn't seem appealing for either team.

NYCelt wrote:Although it's one of the more popular rumors, because Boston needs a center and Turner is stuck on Indy's bench, there would almost have to be a different route than including Hayward and Oladipo. Exchanging injuries and large contracts doesn't seem appealing for either team.

I think it does make sense to exchange large expiring deals and players with injury risk. But ONLY if it make each team better, either on personnel on the floor or in Bird rights/ salary cap movements.

we've already seen stories that Oladipo has said he wants to leave Indiana and play for a winning team. These stories have been refuted by Oladipo's side of course. He is on an expiring deal like Hayward, but he makes $21M now. I would argue it would easier to sign him to deal at a lower salary than signing Hayward when both contracts expire. We have to remember after next season Tatum will be making Hayward type money , along with Kemba and Browns second year of his extension (Kemba and Brown make a combined $60M in 2021 season alone).

Turner may or may not be happy splitting time with Sabonis, but both are on mutli-year deals now and can't control if they are traded. One could surmise that Turner wouldn't be unhappy to move to Boston and see the opportunity to play more minutes and get more national exposure with the Celtics.

Hayward on the other side has shown nothing but loving being with the Celtics. His ONLY reasons to want to move on would be to play close to home and perhaps to get away from the "injury Jinx" he has been hit with here and the label that he has gotten because of it. Players have decided a fresh start with a new team is a good move, even if they were relative happy where they were before.

Robert Williams has sown potential, but not consistency in his two years here. I put him in the mix because we would likely need to send a big man back and I would need/ want to keep Theis here. Williams and Bitadze (who they drafted in the first round last year) should give them solid depth behind Sabonis.

Indiana has no first round pick this year, so sending #14 to get the deal done makes a lot of sense, maybe even add #30 pick to get it done, especially if it means we keep Theis over Robert Williams.

While I agree with dboss that this rumored deal is NOT likely to actually happen, one can make a serious argument that it makes both teams better, if they do.

And if RWill ever gets his shit together and plays next to a healthy Sabonis, that could be a great 4-5 combo. I might be in the minority, but I’m not ready to give up on RWill and his attributes. We need a good big man coach to help him develop further and we have lost a lot of assistant coaches recently. Why not look into getting an ex head coach to come in as an offensive coordinator? Larry Bird had no ego and welcomed smart assistants to help implement the best systems/strategy both sides. Does Brad have such an ego that he doesn’t think he needs any help?

The nibbling around the edges is not going to get this team where it needs to be.

Going after Turner just does not do it for me.   Is he an upgrade over Theis at the 5?  Absolutely but not by that much.  I think any notion that we make a deal for him using GH is just not going to happen.

Bringing back Baynes is a great idea but keep in mind that Baynes is not a significant upgrade.  He too has BU center talent and he turns 34 in December so there is no long term fix there. This team is loaded with a bunch of backup centers.  

With all the bigmen that have played for the Celtics over the years, I cannot seem to wrap my mind around the disregard for quality at the center.  Backup centers are not going to work.  

It has been 16 years since Danny drafted a quality center.  (Al Jefferson)  It took 3 years before he turned into a really good center.  We need a really good center yesterday so you almost have to make a trade for one.  I do not think that Turner will ever be our next great bigman!

Consider this,  I added up the average of 8 teams in the East minus Boston and the best big man on those teams averaged collectively 18 points and 11 rebounds against Boston.  If you look at positional spending at center, Boston is ranked 19th and at 17th on Power forwards.  Danny has not invested in our bigs.

If you want quality bigs you have to spend some money.

dboss wrote:The nibbling around the edges is not going to get this team where it needs to be.

Going after Turner just does not do it for me.   Is he an upgrade over Theis at the 5?  Absolutely but not by that much.  I think any notion that we make a deal for him using GH is just not going to happen.

Bringing back Baynes is a great idea but keep in mind that Baynes is not a significant upgrade.  He too has BU center talent and he turns 34 in December so there is no long term fix there. This team is loaded with a bunch of backup centers.  

With all the bigmen that have played for the Celtics over the years, I cannot seem to wrap my mind around the disregard for quality at the center.  Backup centers are not going to work.  

It has been 16 years since Danny drafted a quality center.  (Al Jefferson)  It took 3 years before he turned into a really good center.  We need a really good center yesterday so you almost have to make a trade for one.  I do not think that Turner will ever be our next great bigman!

Consider this,  I added up the average of 8 teams in the East minus Boston and the best big man on those teams averaged collectively 18 points and 11 rebounds against Boston.  If you look at positional spending at center, Boston is ranked 19th and at 17th on Power forwards.  Danny has not invested in our bigs.

If you want quality bigs you have to spend some money.

Actually before this year no elite big had won since Shaq and KG many years ago. Warriors and Cavs all won with elite wings and guards. If Gordon and Kemba were in mid season form for playoff run, who knows? We could use better coaching as much as we need a big. I actually like bob’s idea on another thread, getting DeMarcus Cousins on the cheap....worth a look.

oh wait...you said stand PAT.....my bad!!



it's a great collaboration with Prince however.

kdp,

Nice video. It is hard to believe she is 72 years old.

gyso wrote:kdp,

Nice video.  It is hard to believe she is 72 years old.  

Stevie is 72 and Eddie Van Halen is gone...

Reality is hitting us 80's dudes right in the face.

Quick, somebody go check on Mick!

cowens/oldschool wrote:

dboss wrote:The nibbling around the edges is not going to get this team where it needs to be.

Going after Turner just does not do it for me.   Is he an upgrade over Theis at the 5?  Absolutely but not by that much.  I think any notion that we make a deal for him using GH is just not going to happen.

Bringing back Baynes is a great idea but keep in mind that Baynes is not a significant upgrade.  He too has BU center talent and he turns 34 in December so there is no long term fix there. This team is loaded with a bunch of backup centers.  

With all the bigmen that have played for the Celtics over the years, I cannot seem to wrap my mind around the disregard for quality at the center.  Backup centers are not going to work.  

It has been 16 years since Danny drafted a quality center.  (Al Jefferson)  It took 3 years before he turned into a really good center.  We need a really good center yesterday so you almost have to make a trade for one.  I do not think that Turner will ever be our next great bigman!

Consider this,  I added up the average of 8 teams in the East minus Boston and the best big man on those teams averaged collectively 18 points and 11 rebounds against Boston.  If you look at positional spending at center, Boston is ranked 19th and at 17th on Power forwards.  Danny has not invested in our bigs.

If you want quality bigs you have to spend some money.

Actually before this year no elite big had won since Shaq and KG many years ago. Warriors and Cavs all won with elite wings and guards. If Gordon and Kemba were in mid season form for playoff run, who knows? We could use better coaching as much as we need a big. I actually like bob’s idea on another thread, getting DeMarcus Cousins on the cheap....worth a look.

This team is not winning without quality bigs.  All the teams that have won since 08 had high quality bigs.  I never mentioned Elite.  The Celtics have not invested in that area.