INVITATION TO OUR LA FANS and others: what do YOU see in the new Heat ?

don't know if this belongs here - it's a Celt's site, and i'm asking for our LA contingent to start off some comments about the re-tooled Miami Heat team from a West Coast perspective. i'm interested in how you see the East playing out and in particular how you see LA matching up against the Heat on Xmas and in March ... also, if it came down to a 7 game series at some point ...

reason i'm asking is, we've got some sharp minds in our LA fan contingent who would have a different perspective on this newly formed possible juggernaut, if it jells the way it might. obviously anyone may want to chime in, but i thought our West Coast friends might offer a different perspective.

please do NOT read this inquiry as throwing in the towel and expecting the C's to lose to the Heat, or to have a diisappointing season. last year was a wonderful thrill ride all the way through the playoffs, and we may see more of the same this year. just interested in a West Coast perspective, is all.

and if this thread doesn't belong here, please remove it freely, mods.

best regards,
Michael

I like the overall talent on Miami's team but I don't see players 10-15 having much of a contribution at all. I would not be surprised if Miami leads the NBA in wins but that doesn't mean they will beat Boston or LA in the playoffs. LeBron and Wade's numbers will go down because they won't have the ball in their hands nearly as often. Bosh is not a superstar and in my opinion is no better then Gasol.
Miami will have a target on their back and I wonder how they will handle the pressure.
I don't like to compare player vs. player but I feel LA is just as strong as Miami and they will be much better then last year's team.
If Boston is healthy, they are better then last year with the addition of Shaq and JO. If Shaq is healthy come playoff time, he will be a big problem for Miami's big men.
I can't see any team other then Miami or Boston coming out of the East and LA coming out of the West.

i agree with much of what you said, and thx for contributing.

agree that the Heat may win a LOT of regualr season games, even though the target is on THEIR backs now ... but palyoff games/series are not the same animal.

agree also that, to me, Bosch is not necessarily a superstar, but we'll certainly know better, one wa or the other, in a few weeks.

but, to say he's not a superstar because he's no better than Gasol doesn't make the point with me, because (though i may hate to admit it) i am a fan of Gasol's play and think he's terrific - at least on your team, and playing in the role he has there.

was surprised to hear that you think LA improved so much in the off-season. glad you thought we got stronger - i do too. so much depends on Shaq and perhaps, as i've suggested before, on his conditioning and whether he's going to be able to give quality minutes out there. God forbid if he starts talking about playing himself into shape -- we heard that last year from Sheed, and the picture weasn't pretty. Shaq in shape and healthy would be a very nice addition to our roster (not to mention JON, who maybe shouldn't appear in parentheses at all !).

Michael

Bosh is not a superstar and neither is Gasol.
They will be perennial All-Stars but are not on the superstar level.
I think LA is significantly better then last years team, especially defensively.
The additions of Blake, Barnes, Ratliff and the rookies are all better defensive players then those they are replacing. Some had Ebanks as the #1 defensive player in the draft because he supposedly can guard the 1-4 positions. The offensive efficiency that Blake should bring to LA will be a big boost for LA's weakest position on the team.
Even though this means nothing, if we had to compare players, here is how I think the Miami/LA analysis would work out:
PG: Chalmers/Arroyo vs. Blake/Fisher.
I give that to LA because of Blake.
SG: Wade vs. Kobe.
Adv: LA.
SF: James vs. Artest.
Adv: Miami
PF: Bosh vs. Gasol.
Adv: Tie.
C: Anthony/Big Z, Howard vs. Bynum.
Adv: LA (Big Advantage if Bynum is healthy.
Bench: Miller, Haslem, House, Big Z, Howard vs. Blake or Fisher, Brown, Barnes, Odom, Ratliff, (Ebanks/Caracter.)
Adv: LA but pretty close, or maybe a tie.

I am curious to see how Doc utilizes Avery Bradley and how much confidence he shows in Nate. We can only assume that Boston plans on using Bradley at the 1 and 2 positions, mostly at the 2. Both D'Antoni and Doc gave Nate so many DNP's last year. Shaq and JO will be a significant upgrade to Rasheed and Perkins in my opinion. We know Rondo and RA will be ready to go. If PP and Garnett are healthy, they could be a real scary team next year with their bigs.
Their weakness in my opinion is trying to guard athletic forwards, especially when PP is on the bench. I have no confidence that Daniels can handle that role. As some point during the season, Boston will probably make a trade to address this area if it is a problem for them. There is plenty of time to bring in another wing player if needed. They should not sign Larry Hughes or Jarvis Hayes or anyone else that is not going to be a significant upgrade over Daniels.

Hi,
I don't have much to add to what TJ said in his 1st post here.
I'd rate Gasol over Bosh. But I'm probably biased because I saw much more of Gasol play than Bosh.

I think we should wait for at least December to say something 'tangible' on this subject.

AK

AK -
but speculation is FUN !

thx for the player breakdown, TJ - even though it really doesn't mean anything, it's fun to conjecture.

i like steve blake too - like him a lot, especially in the right setting (TEAM). he was in Denver for a while so i saw a bit of him, and it was yet another foolish front office move to trade him. you're right on about him as an upgrade.

i too hope Doc shows more steady resolve with Nate. a shooter needs confidence, which you don't get sitting the bench so much. needs to see some action regularly, i think, to be more effective.

as for Marquis, we'll have to see. (well, we'll have to wait and see on ALL of this.) but we'll have to see whether he can be more consistent and effective at both ends. one thing seems clear: if he sticksc with the C's, this year is his shot, to make his name or slump trying.

Michael

bigpygme wrote:
don't know if this belongs here - it's a Celt's site, and i'm asking for our LA contingent to start off some comments about the re-tooled Miami Heat team from a West Coast perspective. i'm interested in how you see the East playing out and in particular how you see LA matching up against the Heat on Xmas and in March ... also, if it came down to a 7 game series at some point ...

Michael-


I think the Cs are still the class of the East. As a wanna-be NBA owner, I thought the Shaq signing was great for the Cs. As a Laker fan, I was less than thrilled, as I think he will really help the Cs vs LA. He will also be a big help vs their three biggest competitors in the East- Miami, Orlando and Chicago.


I see Miami finishing with the best regular season record, as the Cs will be in "stay healthy and don't kill ourselves for homecourt" mode. They know they don't need to have HCA to win. And they are playoff proven. Lebron and Bosh are not.

And once the playoffs start, the Cs will be a beast if everyone is healthy. The game slows down, and they will pound Miami (and Chicago) down low with Shaq, which will open up good looks for Pierce, Ray and KG for jumpers, as Shaq is a good passer out of doubles. Boston's combination of size and perimeter defense will be too much for Miami or Chicago to handle. Neither has enough size up front to deal with the Cs.

And unless Dwight Howard has taken a quantum leap offensively this summer, Orlando has neither the mental toughness nor intestinal fortitude to prevail in 7 games vs the Cs. Rondo does a good job of slowing down Jameer, and the Howard can't be counted on for crunch-time buckets, so that leaves Rashard Lewis and Vince Carter, and if those two are their go-to guys they are in trouble.

I can only see three things keeping the Cs from getting to the Finals, as they are the best team in the East:

1- A chemistry meltdown. Adding Shaq, Delonte and Von Wafer to any team is definitely playing with fire. Ultimately, though, I think this is unlikely, as the Cs have a strong culture with established leaders, and the new guys are all on min contracts and can be cut if any of them turn into a real problem.

2- Injuries- This is true of any team, but the age of the Cs obviously makes this a bigger potential problem than it is for say, OKC. If any of KG, Pierce, Ray, or Shaq can't go in the playoffs, it will be a huge hurdle to overcome. Would be hard for Cs to beat a healthy Miami or Chicago team without all those guys. (I'm assuming Perk will not be back in full form until a year from now. I realize that he's supposed to start playing in the second half of the upcoming season, but the recovery history from that surgery has been a long one for other players, so it could be a year from now before he's playing at the level he was prior to the injury. He will most likely contribute in this season's playoffs, but I think it's unrealistic to expect him to be at the level he was last year.)

3- Father Time hits multiple players hard this season. This is somewhat related to injuries, but I'm talking more about how players in every sport seem to have their skills suddenly fall off a cliff when they hit a certain age. When this happens differs for every player, and some guys skills erode gradually, but we're all familiar with athletes who were highly productive one year and then can't get anywhere near that level the next year. This is most extreme in football, but it happens in basketball as well. At some point, it happens to every player, and it will happen to the Big Three and the Oneals at some point. Just like it will happen to the Lakers older players. When is the question. If it's this year, and multiple players decline substantially, then the Cs will be in trouble. I'm not expecting nit to happen this year, given the way the Big three take care of themselves, but it is the only other thing I could see keeping the Cs out of the Finals.



As for LA vs Miami, I think LA matches up with the Heat in the same way that the Cs do. LA's size will pound the Heat down low, while the perimeter D of Ron Ron on LBJ and Kobe on Wade will cause real problems for the Heat.

In a couple of years, with the Cs and Lakers aging and the Heat having added another two players with the MLE, the Heat will be very, very hard to beat, assuming they figure out how to play together. But for now (and next year), I think LA and Boston are better than the 3 Mi-egos.


I can't wait for opening night. I've never seen an offseason like we just saw (and I doubt we'll see anything quite like it again). I'm as pumped as I've ever been for an NBA season, with the Lakers upgrading, the Cs upgrading and the Heat and BUlls making their moves. Going to be very interesting and a lot of must-see games this year.

IMO C's season comes down to KG's knees. It usually takes more than 1 season to come back from serious knee injuries, but KG has 40,000+ mins in his NBA career and most big men start to decline rather significantly at that point.

if KG bounces back they're in the mix.. if he declines, it's gonna be hard to get past the Magic and Heat.

Also, while I agree Bosh is not a superstar, but an all star, his play on a talented Team USA 2 yrs ago shows how well he can blend into a more talented team. I think he'll thrive with Wade and LeBron on the team.

babyskyhook wrote:

bigpygme wrote:
don't know if this belongs here - it's a Celt's site, and i'm asking for our LA contingent to start off some comments about the re-tooled Miami Heat team from a West Coast perspective. i'm interested in how you see the East playing out and in particular how you see LA matching up against the Heat on Xmas and in March ... also, if it came down to a 7 game series at some point ...

Michael-


I think the Cs are still the class of the East. As a wanna-be NBA owner, I thought the Shaq signing was great for the Cs. As a Laker fan, I was less than thrilled, as I think he will really help the Cs vs LA. He will also be a big help vs their three biggest competitors in the East- Miami, Orlando and Chicago.


I see Miami finishing with the best regular season record, as the Cs will be in "stay healthy and don't kill ourselves for homecourt" mode. They know they don't need to have HCA to win. And they are playoff proven. Lebron and Bosh are not.

And once the playoffs start, the Cs will be a beast if everyone is healthy. The game slows down, and they will pound Miami (and Chicago) down low with Shaq, which will open up good looks for Pierce, Ray and KG for jumpers, as Shaq is a good passer out of doubles. Boston's combination of size and perimeter defense will be too much for Miami or Chicago to handle. Neither has enough size up front to deal with the Cs.

And unless Dwight Howard has taken a quantum leap offensively this summer, Orlando has neither the mental toughness nor intestinal fortitude to prevail in 7 games vs the Cs. Rondo does a good job of slowing down Jameer, and the Howard can't be counted on for crunch-time buckets, so that leaves Rashard Lewis and Vince Carter, and if those two are their go-to guys they are in trouble.

I can only see three things keeping the Cs from getting to the Finals, as they are the best team in the East:

1- A chemistry meltdown. Adding Shaq, Delonte and Von Wafer to any team is definitely playing with fire. Ultimately, though, I think this is unlikely, as the Cs have a strong culture with established leaders, and the new guys are all on min contracts and can be cut if any of them turn into a real problem.

2- Injuries- This is true of any team, but the age of the Cs obviously makes this a bigger potential problem than it is for say, OKC. If any of KG, Pierce, Ray, or Shaq can't go in the playoffs, it will be a huge hurdle to overcome. Would be hard for Cs to beat a healthy Miami or Chicago team without all those guys. (I'm assuming Perk will not be back in full form until a year from now. I realize that he's supposed to start playing in the second half of the upcoming season, but the recovery history from that surgery has been a long one for other players, so it could be a year from now before he's playing at the level he was prior to the injury. He will most likely contribute in this season's playoffs, but I think it's unrealistic to expect him to be at the level he was last year.)

3- Father Time hits multiple players hard this season. This is somewhat related to injuries, but I'm talking more about how players in every sport seem to have their skills suddenly fall off a cliff when they hit a certain age. When this happens differs for every player, and some guys skills erode gradually, but we're all familiar with athletes who were highly productive one year and then can't get anywhere near that level the next year. This is most extreme in football, but it happens in basketball as well. At some point, it happens to every player, and it will happen to the Big Three and the Oneals at some point. Just like it will happen to the Lakers older players. When is the question. If it's this year, and multiple players decline substantially, then the Cs will be in trouble. I'm not expecting nit to happen this year, given the way the Big three take care of themselves, but it is the only other thing I could see keeping the Cs out of the Finals.



As for LA vs Miami, I think LA matches up with the Heat in the same way that the Cs do. LA's size will pound the Heat down low, while the perimeter D of Ron Ron on LBJ and Kobe on Wade will cause real problems for the Heat.

In a couple of years, with the Cs and Lakers aging and the Heat having added another two players with the MLE, the Heat will be very, very hard to beat, assuming they figure out how to play together. But for now (and next year), I think LA and Boston are better than the 3 Mi-egos.


I can't wait for opening night. I've never seen an offseason like we just saw (and I doubt we'll see anything quite like it again). I'm as pumped as I've ever been for an NBA season, with the Lakers upgrading, the Cs upgrading and the Heat and BUlls making their moves. Going to be very interesting and a lot of must-see games this year.

bsh,

Good points. I agree. I think the LA matchups against Miami are very good. If there's a downside it's that Kobe at 32 will have to guard Wade at 29 and Kobe has been running on fumes by the time the finals have come around the last two years. A LOT of miles on that man. Doesn't sound like a big difference, but it's a lot of extra work for the focal point of the Lakers' offense.

Gasol and Bosh would be an interesting matchup. My money would be on Gasol. A little more length, better courtvision. Bosh is quicker. He'll put the ball on the floor against Gasol and try to blow by him.

Where the Lakers would have an edge would be with Bynum and Odom. With Gasol and Odom tagteaming him, Bosh has his plate overflowing while the Heat have nobody who can body up against Bynum.

If I were you, I'd be rooting for a Laker-Heat Finals and not Laker-Celtics one. We can now bang with the best of them while the Lakers are still quite tall (7'0", 285#; 7'0", 250#; 6'10", 230#) but don't have the beef we do (6'11", 255#; 7'1", 325#, 6'11", 240# and Perk coming off the IR in Feb at 6'10", 280#).

bob

.

Bob,

I think there has been some tendency to overlook Artest as a major strength of the Lakers. And his play has probably not been sufficiently consistent to merit such a label. But I wonder if his Game 7 success just might turn on a light that says something like, "What if I did that in every game?" To some extent, I believe that's what happened with Kobe (after many years). And, perhaps to some extent, with Gasol a couple of years ago. In some ways, such an epiphany can be almost like adding another half a (good) player to the roster.

That kind of thing can become infections. Not that I'm rooting for it, but it will definitely be something to watch.

Sam

Sam wrote:Bob,

I think there has been some tendency to overlook Artest as a major strength of the Lakers. And his play has probably not been sufficiently consistent to merit such a label. But I wonder if his Game 7 success just might turn on a light that says something like, "What if I did that in every game?" To some extent, I believe that's what happened with Kobe (after many years). And, perhaps to some extent, with Gasol a couple of years ago. In some ways, such an epiphany can be almost like adding another half a (good) player to the roster.

That kind of thing can become infections. Not that I'm rooting for it, but it will definitely be something to watch.

Sam

sam,

good point. In the same way, I wouldn't be surprised if Tony Allen took a step up next year as a result of his stellar defensive performances in the playoffs last year. Sucks that he's gone, but good luck to him.

My post above focused strictly on the the Lakers/Heat matchups and I don't see Artest taking advantage of LBJ the same way he took advantage of Pierce.

bob

.

bobheckler wrote:

babyskyhook wrote:

bigpygme wrote:
don't know if this belongs here - it's a Celt's site, and i'm asking for our LA contingent to start off some comments about the re-tooled Miami Heat team from a West Coast perspective. i'm interested in how you see the East playing out and in particular how you see LA matching up against the Heat on Xmas and in March ... also, if it came down to a 7 game series at some point ...

Michael-


I think the Cs are still the class of the East. As a wanna-be NBA owner, I thought the Shaq signing was great for the Cs. As a Laker fan, I was less than thrilled, as I think he will really help the Cs vs LA. He will also be a big help vs their three biggest competitors in the East- Miami, Orlando and Chicago.


I see Miami finishing with the best regular season record, as the Cs will be in "stay healthy and don't kill ourselves for homecourt" mode. They know they don't need to have HCA to win. And they are playoff proven. Lebron and Bosh are not.

And once the playoffs start, the Cs will be a beast if everyone is healthy. The game slows down, and they will pound Miami (and Chicago) down low with Shaq, which will open up good looks for Pierce, Ray and KG for jumpers, as Shaq is a good passer out of doubles. Boston's combination of size and perimeter defense will be too much for Miami or Chicago to handle. Neither has enough size up front to deal with the Cs.

And unless Dwight Howard has taken a quantum leap offensively this summer, Orlando has neither the mental toughness nor intestinal fortitude to prevail in 7 games vs the Cs. Rondo does a good job of slowing down Jameer, and the Howard can't be counted on for crunch-time buckets, so that leaves Rashard Lewis and Vince Carter, and if those two are their go-to guys they are in trouble.

I can only see three things keeping the Cs from getting to the Finals, as they are the best team in the East:

1- A chemistry meltdown. Adding Shaq, Delonte and Von Wafer to any team is definitely playing with fire. Ultimately, though, I think this is unlikely, as the Cs have a strong culture with established leaders, and the new guys are all on min contracts and can be cut if any of them turn into a real problem.

2- Injuries- This is true of any team, but the age of the Cs obviously makes this a bigger potential problem than it is for say, OKC. If any of KG, Pierce, Ray, or Shaq can't go in the playoffs, it will be a huge hurdle to overcome. Would be hard for Cs to beat a healthy Miami or Chicago team without all those guys. (I'm assuming Perk will not be back in full form until a year from now. I realize that he's supposed to start playing in the second half of the upcoming season, but the recovery history from that surgery has been a long one for other players, so it could be a year from now before he's playing at the level he was prior to the injury. He will most likely contribute in this season's playoffs, but I think it's unrealistic to expect him to be at the level he was last year.)

3- Father Time hits multiple players hard this season. This is somewhat related to injuries, but I'm talking more about how players in every sport seem to have their skills suddenly fall off a cliff when they hit a certain age. When this happens differs for every player, and some guys skills erode gradually, but we're all familiar with athletes who were highly productive one year and then can't get anywhere near that level the next year. This is most extreme in football, but it happens in basketball as well. At some point, it happens to every player, and it will happen to the Big Three and the Oneals at some point. Just like it will happen to the Lakers older players. When is the question. If it's this year, and multiple players decline substantially, then the Cs will be in trouble. I'm not expecting nit to happen this year, given the way the Big three take care of themselves, but it is the only other thing I could see keeping the Cs out of the Finals.



As for LA vs Miami, I think LA matches up with the Heat in the same way that the Cs do. LA's size will pound the Heat down low, while the perimeter D of Ron Ron on LBJ and Kobe on Wade will cause real problems for the Heat.

In a couple of years, with the Cs and Lakers aging and the Heat having added another two players with the MLE, the Heat will be very, very hard to beat, assuming they figure out how to play together. But for now (and next year), I think LA and Boston are better than the 3 Mi-egos.


I can't wait for opening night. I've never seen an offseason like we just saw (and I doubt we'll see anything quite like it again). I'm as pumped as I've ever been for an NBA season, with the Lakers upgrading, the Cs upgrading and the Heat and BUlls making their moves. Going to be very interesting and a lot of must-see games this year.

bsh,

Good points. I agree. I think the LA matchups against Miami are very good. If there's a downside it's that Kobe at 32 will have to guard Wade at 29 and Kobe has been running on fumes by the time the finals have come around the last two years. A LOT of miles on that man. Doesn't sound like a big difference, but it's a lot of extra work for the focal point of the Lakers' offense.

Gasol and Bosh would be an interesting matchup. My money would be on Gasol. A little more length, better courtvision. Bosh is quicker. He'll put the ball on the floor against Gasol and try to blow by him.

Where the Lakers would have an edge would be with Bynum and Odom. With Gasol and Odom tagteaming him, Bosh has his plate overflowing while the Heat have nobody who can body up against Bynum.

]If I were you, I'd be rooting for a Laker-Heat Finals and not Laker-Celtics one. We can now bang with the best of them while the Lakers are still quite tall (7'0", 285#; 7'0", 250#; 6'10", 230#) but don't have the beef we do (6'11", 255#; 7'1", 325#, 6'11", 240# and Perk coming off the IR in Feb at 6'10", 280#).

bob

.

Bob-

I'm hoping they dial back Kobe's minutes (and all of the starters) to around 30-33 mpg now that LA's bench is actually going to be a strength, and thus Kobe will hopefully have more in the tank come playoff time. I'm also hoping that with Kobe's ironman streak now broken, he'll sit out a few games here or there when he gets a minor injury so that it doesn't linger and turn into something worse.

KObe has always liked to play as many minutes as possible in as many gams as possible, but I'm thinking (hoping) that the fact that he was so banged up in the OKC series that it really limited his effectiveness will have taught him a lesson. He's smart enough to know that the only thing that matters for his legacy now is getting more rings. And the way to get more rings is to preserve himself during the regular season and be fresh and healthy for the playoffs. Fingers crossed.


As far as rooting for a Heat-Lakers Finals, I hear what you're saying, but that would be tough. I hate Lebron so much, I want to see him go down in an early round. On the other hand, I agree with you that the Cs match up better with LA than anyone else. I hope I'm wrong, but I really think Shaq is going to help them.

It would be an epic Finals if it was Lakers-Celtics again. The rubber match.

Kobe vs Shaq
Kobe vs Rondo
Gasol vs KG
Artest vs Pierce
Artest vs Doc
Fisher vs Ray
Bynum vs Shaq (they've had some beef in the past)
Bynum vs Jerm (frequently linked in trade rumors in the past. Bynum is always extra-motivated vs Jerm)
Caracter vs Erden (ok- maybe not so much)
Phil vs Doc
Phil vs Red
"I Love LA" vs "Dirty Water"
"Boston Sucks" vs "Beat LA"
LA either ties the Cs at 17 titles or the Cs get #18


I'm getting pumped just writing all of these.

And this might be the last time they'll square off for a while in the Finals given the age of the Cs (with the Lakers not far behind), and rising powers in Miami and OKC, with potential contenders developing in Chicago and PDX.


Soooooo, even though the Heat would be a better matchup for the Lakers, it would be hard for me to root for it given my disdain for Queen James and all of the great things that would be involved in another clash of the titans from LA and Boston. Bring on the season !!!

Sam wrote:Bob,

I think there has been some tendency to overlook Artest as a major strength of the Lakers. And his play has probably not been sufficiently consistent to merit such a label. But I wonder if his Game 7 success just might turn on a light that says something like, "What if I did that in every game?" To some extent, I believe that's what happened with Kobe (after many years). And, perhaps to some extent, with Gasol a couple of years ago. In some ways, such an epiphany can be almost like adding another half a (good) player to the roster.

That kind of thing can become infections. Not that I'm rooting for it, but it will definitely be something to watch.

Sam

Sam-

as usual, very insightful. Ron helped complete the transformation of the Lakers from an offensive minded team to a defensive minded team. It's the lesson the Cs taught them so painfully in '08, and Ron's relentless energy, hustle and work on the defensive end were a huge contributing factor to the entire team playing D as well as they did. Without Ron slowing down Durant and Pierce as much as he did, there's no way LA wins the title. LA ultimately beat Boston at their own game- they won the Finals with defense, physicality and toughness. Without Ron, there's no way that happens.

His offensive success in games 6 and 7 was the result of Phil simplifying his role in the triangle and Ron fully understanding it to a point that he no longer had to think about it. He could just do it.

I expect more of that this year. He has been a good three point shooter throughout his career, and I think he is going to have a much-improved offensive year this season as his familiarity and comfort with the triangle increase further. He will get a lot of open looks spotting up for 3, and I think he'll take advantage of those this year. So I (and a lot of LAker fans) am definitely looking at Game 7 as a springboard for future success for Ron.

BSH,

Thanks for breaking down some of the factors in Artest's apparent metamorphosis. I've never liked Phil Jackson, but that could be one of his more impressive achievements.

Ron's situation is just one way in which the Lakers will mainly be fine-tuning what turned into a consistently well-rounded team last season. They will have their subplots for sure, including changes to the bench and, especially, distribution of responsibilities at the PG position.

Some of the myriad subplots of the Celtics, on the other hand, will be more far-reaching. The most obvious will be integrating two new heavyweights (perhaps three, but that would be a longshot) into the system, which will be missing a heavyweight from the past (at least for a while).

More subtle, but quite possibly having greater long-term ramifications, will be a continuation of the evolution in the balance of leadership from Pierce to Rondo. I have always been bothered by the fact that there's a disconnect between the Three Amigos' preferred pace and Rondo's preferred pace, and it will be interesting to see how that plays out this season.

A third matter of no small consequence will be the development of a largely new bench, which could go into any of a number of interesting directions, depending on the respective roles assumed by Shaq (I believe he'll play primarily with the bench), Wafer, West, Davis, Daniels and Nate.

And z fourth will involve what I (and others) believe will be their single most serious area of vulnerability—the SF position. I include Pierce as one aspect of the possible vulunerability as I believe that his penetration skills have seriously diminished and could do so even more if he is over-played—especially in guarding good SFs from Lebron on down the line.

I'm not a predictor and never will be. But I won't be surprised if the Celtics trail the Lakers (my main comparative barometer) by a number of games come mid-season because the Lakers won't have to accommodate nearly as many major changes as the Celtics will.

In that case, I expect to have to grit my teeth once more as the world (including Celtics Nation) buries the Celtics in an ocean of poor power ratings, cries of, "I told you so" along with demands to break up the team, and the usual other premature drivel. While the second half of the season will really tell the story on whether, and to what degree, this evolving team will be able to contend for the title. And, of course, there's always the "I" word that's the unknown. I hate the "I" word and wouldn't wish it on any team.

Sam

no doubt that Ron came up big at big moments for the Lakers last playoff season, including offensively and not just as a stopper. maybe it was Phil's influence or his simplification for Ron of his role offensively, but something worked. Better positioning for reb's worked (even though it looked like a lucky bounce or two, ultimately he was where he needed to be), his shot worked, and his D worked as well. he did not implode and did not bring the team down with him, as many had thought he might.

while as a C's fan i hope his resurgence doesn't carry over, if i were in his shoes i think that success might well carry into a more confident basis the coming year. in a LA-Boston match-up, we'll have to see what the Captain has left to bring to the table against him.

and Sam, i am sorry to think that you're likely right about "fans" throwing in the towel and whining as the C's look to integrate newcomers and jell during the season's first half. but there's fans and there's FANS - and around here we have lots of FANS who will have the perspicacity to ride a potentially slow start out.

i can not WAIT for the season !!!!!

Michael

PS - one word re: a previous thread i didn't get on to soon enough. McHale.