Bynum to miss start of season

This is news, but not huge earthshaking news. It's the beginning of a long season and the competition for the Lakers in the West is dropping like a stone. First Amare and Boozer leave the WC, now it looks like Carmelo's leaving the WC. The only WC team that looks like it might have helped itself in the offseason is OKC, but the rest of the conference teams have taken hits. The Lakers are in the fortunate position of being able to limp along without Bynum for a while and still win the west going away.


Coach Phil Jackson of the Los Angeles Lakers confirmed that center Andrew Bynum is expected to start the season on the inactive list.

Bynum suffered a torn meniscus during the 2009/10 season but managed to play through pain while helping the Lakers secure their second straight title.

"I don't see how Andrew is going to be ready," said Jackson. "Now it's an unfortunate thing but the type of surgery that the doctor did on his knee takes a little extra time."

Bynum underwent arthroscopic surgery on July 28th and while the specific details of the procedure remain vague, his knee needed special treatment.

"Obviously we hadn't prepared and Andrew certainly hadn't prepared that it was going to take an extra month and a half or so to rehab this type of a surgery," continued Jackson. "I know he's getting battered a little bit [by the media]. He could have had the operation earlier. He could have come in a little bit earlier but I think the end result is, what is he going to be like in May and June? That's the important part."

The original surgery was slated for July 18th. After Bynum postponed it about five days, his surgeon Dr. David Altchek needed to reschedule it an additional five.

"From the date that we originally anticipated that he'd have the surgery, he lost 10 days," said the Laker coach. "Eighteenth is what he talked about in our exit meeting. I think he had the surgery on the 28th. Those 10 days may mean three games or four games perhaps."

Both the Lakers and Bynum met after the season, agreeing a month's vacation would do the young center well.

"Andrew had some things in mind. He wanted to go to the World Cup in South Africa," said Jackson. "We encouraged him to go there. It's something after an eight-month season, it's kind of fun for these guys to get out. A lot of our players had an opportunity to go and some took advantage of it."

It's relevant to note that Kobe Bryant also attended the World Cup and had a mid-July knee surgery. Initially Bryant was expected to miss a portion of the pre-season but Jackson indicted Kobe is ahead of schedule and likely to play in London in an overseas exhibition against the Minnesota Timberwolves on October 4th.

In Bynum's case, recovery has been at a slower pace.

"We didn't anticipate this type of repair that was going to be done to his knee. So we had different little time-table going on," said Jackson. "It was partially Andrew's situation. He could have been here earlier. It's part ours. We could have said let's get it done before we leave.

"We talked to him about it. We agreed with him that it was OK."

Clearly when Altchek scoped the knee, it wasn't a simple cut and suture.

"It's an unusual type of surgery. It's not done very often. Obviously the area of the tear with Andrew - it was an unusual tear," said Jackson. "Andrew has knees that I think have shown that we have to watch and be careful with them. This is something that is going to repair the knee in a way that it'll be much more stable in the future."

Given Bynum's history, perhaps the Lakers should have pushed to fast-track the surgery but the decision was made in June. There's not much that can be done about it September.

Once Bynum does return to active duty, Jackson intends to work him in slowly.

"I would imagine that when he starts out, he will be conditioning," said Phil, "and his conditioning won't be at 100%. We'll play him but do it in eight minute bursts - seven minute bursts - something like that."

In the meantime, Jackson will turn to a veteran center to hold down minutes in Bynum's absence.

"Theo Ratliff is one of these players who has been around the league," said Jackson. "He knows the league. He knows the personnel. He knows how to act in this game. We hope that he can sustain the effort during Andrew's period perhaps away from the team to back up Pau [Gasol] sufficiently. If he doesn't then we're going to have to find one of our rookies, [Derrick] Caracter or somebody to play that role and give us big minutes perhaps at that position."


bob

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Bynum will probably be full speed after 10-15 games.
That will give Caracter a chance to play some decent minutes early in the year.

tj respectfully Bynum may never be at full speed. He stays hurt. Just STAYS hurt.

I hadn't realized the injury was so unusual. Good luck to Bynum for a full recovery.

Sam

What I found interesting about what Phil said was that this operation will provide more stability for Bynum's knees going forward. This is despite the steady drumbeat coming out of the Lakers organization over the years about how there's nothing structurally wrong with Bynum's knees, they're just fluke injuries. Well, if there's nothing wrong structurally, then why the need to complicate the surgery and add to the rehab by doing structural work instead of just a simple cut-and-suture?

The Celts played the same PR game with KG's knee operation. They don't tell us the truth because that would make people get nervous about the next season.

I hope Bynum makes a full 100% recovery. Jeb said that Bynum "stays hurt". I don't know about "stays" hurt, but he sure as hell gets hurt more often than just about any other young player I can think of.

bob

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jeb65 wrote:tj respectfully Bynum may never be at full speed. He stays hurt. Just STAYS hurt.

What's going on buddy ?

How'd the summer end up ?

bobheckler wrote:What I found interesting about what Phil said was that this operation will provide more stability for Bynum's knees going forward. This is despite the steady drumbeat coming out of the Lakers organization over the years about how there's nothing structurally wrong with Bynum's knees, they're just fluke injuries. Well, if there's nothing wrong structurally, then why the need to complicate the surgery and add to the rehab by doing structural work instead of just a simple cut-and-suture?

The Celts played the same PR game with KG's knee operation. They don't tell us the truth because that would make people get nervous about the next season.

I hope Bynum makes a full 100% recovery. Jeb said that Bynum "stays hurt". I don't know about "stays" hurt, but he sure as hell gets hurt more often than just about any other young player I can think of.

bob

Bob-

I'm not denying the fact that there always seems to be a disconnect between the Lakers and Bynum when it comes to recovery timeframes, etc from his surgeries. And there may be something wrong structurally. (I hope not, but it's certainly possible.)

In this instance however, I think they've done the surgery in the way that most players should have it done. (I've had this surgery,l so I'm familiar with it.)

Instead of removing the torn part of the meniscus and shaving down what's left to smooth it down (which is how it's usually done), they've sewed it back up to repair and strengthen it.. It's a more complicated surgery and it takes longer to recover, but the long term benefits of doing it this way are well worth it for an NBA player. Usually, though, the players competitive drive and the team's desire to see the stars play (eg, sell tickets) leads them to the quicker surgery so they can return quicker, even though the long term aftereffects for an NBA player are worse under that scenario.

So I'm glad they've taken the longer-term approach with Bynum, given his injury history. Some extra strength and stability in the knee will be a very good thing.

babyskyhook wrote:

bobheckler wrote:What I found interesting about what Phil said was that this operation will provide more stability for Bynum's knees going forward. This is despite the steady drumbeat coming out of the Lakers organization over the years about how there's nothing structurally wrong with Bynum's knees, they're just fluke injuries. Well, if there's nothing wrong structurally, then why the need to complicate the surgery and add to the rehab by doing structural work instead of just a simple cut-and-suture?

The Celts played the same PR game with KG's knee operation. They don't tell us the truth because that would make people get nervous about the next season.

I hope Bynum makes a full 100% recovery. Jeb said that Bynum "stays hurt". I don't know about "stays" hurt, but he sure as hell gets hurt more often than just about any other young player I can think of.

bob

Bob-

I'm not denying the fact that there always seems to be a disconnect between the Lakers and Bynum when it comes to recovery timeframes, etc from his surgeries. And there may be something wrong structurally. (I hope not, but it's certainly possible.)

In this instance however, I think they've done the surgery in the way that most players should have it done. (I've had this surgery,l so I'm familiar with it.)

Instead of removing the torn part of the meniscus and shaving down what's left to smooth it down (which is how it's usually done), they've sewed it back up to repair and strengthen it.. It's a more complicated surgery and it takes longer to recover, but the long term benefits of doing it this way are well worth it for an NBA player. Usually, though, the players competitive drive and the team's desire to see the stars play (eg, sell tickets) leads them to the quicker surgery so they can return quicker, even though the long term aftereffects for an NBA player are worse under that scenario.

So I'm glad they've taken the longer-term approach with Bynum, given his injury history. Some extra strength and stability in the knee will be a very good thing.

babyskyhook,

Let's hope you're right. With the few exceptions like Bruce Bowen, I never want to see players hurt (kicking a player when they're on the floor though, that's worth wishing karma on them for). Ok, maybe LBJ too.

One thing I don't understand, and perhaps you can help since you say you've had this operation before, is the connection on rehab time and on playing. Based upon what we're hearing now, Bynum's rehab has been extended by a month or two at most due to this surgical approach. If that's the case, and that's ALL there is to it, there is MORE than enough offseason time for EVERY player who needs this operation to have one like this. Why would anybody have the "cut-and-suture quickie" when they can have this operation in May (most players are done for the year by then, at the latest) and don't have to be ready to go until October at the earliest?

KG had his operation. We were told it was a "no-biggie". Well, maybe the operation was no-biggie, and he did play the next season, but it wasn't until the playoffs that he was looking anything like his old self. For 3/4 of the year he looked like a pale shadow of himself. So the rehab, technically, might have only been a few months, but that's only until he was cleared for full contact, full court. Getting back to playing a high level game took 8-9 months more.

Based upon your surgical experience would you say that the time between "end of rehab" and being back at close to 100% is longer than if you had the quickie? I'm asking for a comparison of the rehab times for the two operations AND a comparison of the "ramping up to 100%" time.

My experience with the KG thing has made me suspicious of what they don't tell us more than of what they do tell us.

bob

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Bob-

on your first point-

There may be times where the meniscus is so frayed that they can't repair it and can only shave off the damaged portion and the player has no choice, but I'm surprised that so many players go for the quickie version, given that they are dependent on their bodies for a living, and in the long run, the quickie is going to be detrimental to them, unless it involves shaving off only a vey small part of the meniscus.

A lot of the time, though, there is enough that gets taken out that it causes problems in the long run as bone starts to rub against bone as the weakened remainder of the meniscus deteriorates over a period of years.

As I said above, I think it's the competitive desire of the players combined with team doctors giving them advice that's in the best interest of the team, but not the players. A guy like CP3 wants to play and says, how canI get back on the court the quickest, and viola, he gets the quickie. I hope for his sake that they only shaved a small part of the meniscus off, given how much he depends on his speed and ability to make hard cuts. His knee is under a lot of pressure.

The rehab time is longer for the more extensive version of the operation, and so is the amount of time it takes to get back to a high level (ramping up time) as the players, have more internal swelling and bleeding, lose more muscle mass, lose more of their conditioning and timing, etc, so this could also factor into players decisions. Still I don't get it. Unless it was a very minor shaving, I would go for the full repair.

As for KG's injury, I remember they were originally calling it a “posterior knee strain.” That's an injury with a 2-6 week recovery typically.

Then we were told that KG had two knee injuries: 1) strained popliteus tendon in right knee; 2) bone spurs in right knee. The second injury made the first one more painful, according to prevailing wisdom. KG then had surgery, after which the team said "the inflamed muscle indeed was caused by the bone spur".

I think that was a load of crap, except for the bone spur part.

When you look at how long it took for KG to get back to playing at a high level, it was roughly a year from when he had surgery. It doesn't take someone anywhere near that long to come back from an inflamed tendon, much less an elite athlete who's only job is to work on his rehab with state of the art physical therapy facilities and dedicated therapists giving him individual attention.

Something was torn. Not destroyed, but damaged to a level that it needed to be repaired. Something in the back or side of the knee. Something that took 5 months for him to be playing again and a year to be playing at a high level. I had my mcl repaired along with my meniscus and KG's timetable almost exactly mirrors mine.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was a slightly torn mcl along with the bone spurs. I doubt it was the acl (although I guess it could have been a small tear of the acl) because it would have taken an even longer time for his rehab and ramping up (like Perkins).

I think KG's knee was definitely worse than advertised when he had the surgery. And the fact that they kept saying he'd be coming back soon I thought was odd, although I guess they didn't want to deflate the fans during a playoff drive. Whatever the motivation, management lost some credibility with a lot of fans the way they handled the whole process.

babyskyhook wrote:

Bob-

on your first point-

There may be times where the meniscus is so frayed that they can't repair it and can only shave off the damaged portion and the player has no choice, but I'm surprised that so many players go for the quickie version, given that they are dependent on their bodies for a living, and in the long run, the quickie is going to be detrimental to them, unless it involves shaving off only a vey small part of the meniscus.

A lot of the time, though, there is enough that gets taken out that it causes problems in the long run as bone starts to rub against bone as the weakened remainder of the meniscus deteriorates over a period of years.

As I said above, I think it's the competitive desire of the players combined with team doctors giving them advice that's in the best interest of the team, but not the players. A guy like CP3 wants to play and says, how canI get back on the court the quickest, and viola, he gets the quickie. I hope for his sake that they only shaved a small part of the meniscus off, given how much he depends on his speed and ability to make hard cuts. His knee is under a lot of pressure.

The rehab time is longer for the more extensive version of the operation, and so is the amount of time it takes to get back to a high level (ramping up time) as the players, have more internal swelling and bleeding, lose more muscle mass, lose more of their conditioning and timing, etc, so this could also factor into players decisions. Still I don't get it. Unless it was a very minor shaving, I would go for the full repair.

As for KG's injury, I remember they were originally calling it a “posterior knee strain.” That's an injury with a 2-6 week recovery typically.

Then we were told that KG had two knee injuries: 1) strained popliteus tendon in right knee; 2) bone spurs in right knee. The second injury made the first one more painful, according to prevailing wisdom. KG then had surgery, after which the team said "the inflamed muscle indeed was caused by the bone spur".

I think that was a load of crap, except for the bone spur part.

When you look at how long it took for KG to get back to playing at a high level, it was roughly a year from when he had surgery. It doesn't take someone anywhere near that long to come back from an inflamed tendon, much less an elite athlete who's only job is to work on his rehab with state of the art physical therapy facilities and dedicated therapists giving him individual attention.

Something was torn. Not destroyed, but damaged to a level that it needed to be repaired. Something in the back or side of the knee. Something that took 5 months for him to be playing again and a year to be playing at a high level. I had my mcl repaired along with my meniscus and KG's timetable almost exactly mirrors mine.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was a slightly torn mcl along with the bone spurs. I doubt it was the acl (although I guess it could have been a small tear of the acl) because it would have taken an even longer time for his rehab and ramping up (like Perkins).

I think KG's knee was definitely worse than advertised when he had the surgery. And the fact that they kept saying he'd be coming back soon I thought was odd, although I guess they didn't want to deflate the fans during a playoff drive. Whatever the motivation, management lost some credibility with a lot of fans the way they handled the whole process.

bsh,

I think it's clear, and everybody will agree, that KG's situation was more serious than originally let on. We later heard that he had a bone spur the size of a walnut between his patella and his tibia. That had to cause some real damage that required real serious repair work. I don't know why they did that. Anybody who saw him play, including opposing scouts, could see that he was hobbled. Why would the threat of a hobbled player returning be of concern to Orlando? Oh the tangled web we weave when we first practice to deceive (Sir Walter Scott).

As far as the docs giving advice that panders to the front office and the player's ego, do you really think so? The team has this player on the hook for years. Getting a poorly reconstructed piece of their puzzle just to save a few months seems very penny-wise-and-pound-foolish. A CP3 at 100% for 4 years is much better, for all concerned than an 70% CP3 for one year and a 80-90% CPs for the next 4 years.

Bynum played on a bad knee these past playoffs. He played. He played hurt, but he played. And yet, his recovery time NEVER seems to happen on schedule. How can a player who can play hurt need longer to recover? Maybe because we're not getting the real story about what the problem really is and what is really necessary to fix it.

bob

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Bob-

I agree about the Bynum info as well. I look at anything the Lakers say about his injuries now the way you do at the Cs talking about KG- very skeptically.

In fact, now that I think of it, when Bynum hurt his knee in '08, the pattern of announcements from the team was almost exactly the same as KG's the next year- at first, they said he'd be back by a certain date, then it got pushed back by a week or so, then by three weeks, then by 6 weeks, and then it was "He's going to miss the playoffs."

Almost exactly the same. Maybe the teams are all working from the same PR playbook.


I now add a month to 6 weeks to whatever they say his recovery time is going to be so that I'm not disappointed.

I'm expecting BYnum to return to the court in late Dec this year (not Nov), and I'm not expecting him to be playing at a high level until the AS break.

babyskyhook wrote:

Bob-

I agree about the Bynum info as well. I look at anything the Lakers say about his injuries now the way you do at the Cs talking about KG- very skeptically.

In fact, now that I think of it, when Bynum hurt his knee in '08, the pattern of announcements from the team was almost exactly the same as KG's the next year- at first, they said he'd be back by a certain date, then it got pushed back by a week or so, then by three weeks, then by 6 weeks, and then it was "He's going to miss the playoffs."

Almost exactly the same. Maybe the teams are all working from the same PR playbook.


I now add a month to 6 weeks to whatever they say his recovery time is going to be so that I'm not disappointed.

I'm expecting BYnum to return to the court in late Dec this year (not Nov), and I'm not expecting him to be playing at a high level until the AS break.

bsh,

If your prediction is accurate, then you better hope that OKC doesn't start the season like a house on fire. They were your toughest WC playoff opponents last year. They're a year older, a playoff seasoning wiser and if they grab and hold onto the best record in the west...

bob

.

PS-

The above scenario might not be such a bad thing.

If Bynum comes along slowly it will probably be better for his knee, and if he starts getting into high gear around the AS break, it could set him up well to be in peak form for the playoffs, which would be a nice change.

Because no matter who comes out of the East, a healthy Bynum is a necessity for LA.

With Shaq in Boston, Bynum is a must to combat him. To a lesser extent, it's the same with D12 in Orlando. Although Pau has played very well vs Howard in the past, I'd much rather have Bynum in there.

And if the 3 Mi-egos make the Finals, Bynum will be one of the Lakers biggest advantages against them. Especially when you take a long look at Miami's bigs.



It could also give the team a good boost of energy if Andrew starts playing really well (and with high energy) when everyone else is starting to hit the post AS/ pre-playoff dog days.

Hopefully, no matter when he comes back, it all turns out well come June.

babyskyhook wrote:
PS-

The above scenario might not be such a bad thing.

If Bynum comes along slowly it will probably be better for his knee, and if he starts getting into high gear around the AS break, it could set him up well to be in peak form for the playoffs, which would be a nice change.

Because no matter who comes out of the East, a healthy Bynum is a necessity for LA.

With Shaq in Boston, Bynum is a must to combat him. To a lesser extent, it's the same with D12 in Orlando. Although Pau has played very well vs Howard in the past, I'd much rather have Bynum in there.

And if the 3 Mi-egos make the Finals, Bynum will be one of the Lakers biggest advantages against them. Especially when you take a long look at Miami's bigs.



It could also give the team a good boost of energy if Andrew starts playing really well (and with high energy) when everyone else is starting to hit the post AS/ pre-playoff dog days.

Hopefully, no matter when he comes back, it all turns out well come June.

bsh,

You're absolutely right about this. LA barely survived Boston with Sheed and Davis at center for the 7th game. Now that we have the O'Neal boys that row will be even tougher to hoe. Expecting 6'10", 235#, 38-year old Theo Ratliff to stop them is asking a bit much.

bob

.

The 3 Mi-egos...now that's a keeper!

bobheckler wrote:

babyskyhook wrote:

Bob-

I agree about the Bynum info as well. I look at anything the Lakers say about his injuries now the way you do at the Cs talking about KG- very skeptically.

In fact, now that I think of it, when Bynum hurt his knee in '08, the pattern of announcements from the team was almost exactly the same as KG's the next year- at first, they said he'd be back by a certain date, then it got pushed back by a week or so, then by three weeks, then by 6 weeks, and then it was "He's going to miss the playoffs."

Almost exactly the same. Maybe the teams are all working from the same PR playbook.


I now add a month to 6 weeks to whatever they say his recovery time is going to be so that I'm not disappointed.

I'm expecting BYnum to return to the court in late Dec this year (not Nov), and I'm not expecting him to be playing at a high level until the AS break.

bsh,

If your prediction is accurate, then you better hope that OKC doesn't start the season like a house on fire. They were your toughest WC playoff opponents last year. They're a year older, a playoff seasoning wiser and if they grab and hold onto the best record in the west...

bob

.

Bob-

as you'll recall, I was predicting the rise of OKC on this board a year ago, so you know I have a lot of respect for them, and in the long run I think they are the Lakers biggest threat.

That said, I'm not worried about them for the #1 seed this year, as they still haven't upgraded at the 5, and they had almost no injuries last year at all, which is unlikely to happen two years in a row, even with their youth.

On the flip side, the Lakers can still get off to a very strong start even without Bynum, as Pau and LO have been the big man tandem for back to back titles, so they are used to playing without Bynum. Also, they added good depth in the offseason with Theo Ratliff and Derek Caracter (a second round steal- this guy can play, and b/c of the BYnum situation, Phil is going to give him some minutes until Bynum comes back, as he's not going to want to burn out Pau, LO and Theo.)

On top of that, the Lakers got hit with a lot of injuries last year and had a terrible bench. THe bench has been greatly upgraded, and I'm assuming they won't have as many injuries this year. So I'm thinking LA can win 64 games this year.

As for OKC, you know I love Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka. They are obviously fantastic and will continue to improve, but as a team, they won't be sneaking up on anyone this year. I think they've got a great shot at the #2 seed in the West, as does PDX (who had terrible luck with injuries last year), and Dallas. If the injuries even out this year, I could see any of those three teams getting the 2 seed, but I think they're all a step down from the Lakers level.

babyskyhook wrote:

bobheckler wrote:

babyskyhook wrote:

Bob-

I agree about the Bynum info as well. I look at anything the Lakers say about his injuries now the way you do at the Cs talking about KG- very skeptically.

In fact, now that I think of it, when Bynum hurt his knee in '08, the pattern of announcements from the team was almost exactly the same as KG's the next year- at first, they said he'd be back by a certain date, then it got pushed back by a week or so, then by three weeks, then by 6 weeks, and then it was "He's going to miss the playoffs."

Almost exactly the same. Maybe the teams are all working from the same PR playbook.


I now add a month to 6 weeks to whatever they say his recovery time is going to be so that I'm not disappointed.

I'm expecting BYnum to return to the court in late Dec this year (not Nov), and I'm not expecting him to be playing at a high level until the AS break.

bsh,

If your prediction is accurate, then you better hope that OKC doesn't start the season like a house on fire. They were your toughest WC playoff opponents last year. They're a year older, a playoff seasoning wiser and if they grab and hold onto the best record in the west...

bob

.

Bob-

as you'll recall, I was predicting the rise of OKC on this board a year ago, so you know I have a lot of respect for them, and in the long run I think they are the Lakers biggest threat.

That said, I'm not worried about them for the #1 seed this year, as they still haven't upgraded at the 5, and they had almost no injuries last year at all, which is unlikely to happen two years in a row, even with their youth.

On the flip side, the Lakers can still get off to a very strong start even without Bynum, as Pau and LO have been the big man tandem for back to back titles, so they are used to playing without Bynum. Also, they added good depth in the offseason with Theo Ratliff and Derek Caracter (a second round steal- this guy can play, and b/c of the BYnum situation, Phil is going to give him some minutes until Bynum comes back, as he's not going to want to burn out Pau, LO and Theo.)

On top of that, the Lakers got hit with a lot of injuries last year and had a terrible bench. THe bench has been greatly upgraded, and I'm assuming they won't have as many injuries this year. So I'm thinking LA can win 64 games this year.

As for OKC, you know I love Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka. They are obviously fantastic and will continue to improve, but as a team, they won't be sneaking up on anyone this year. I think they've got a great shot at the #2 seed in the West, as does PDX (who had terrible luck with injuries last year), and Dallas. If the injuries even out this year, I could see any of those three teams getting the 2 seed, but I think they're all a step down from the Lakers level.

bsh,

Credit where credit is due. You were the first on this board to tout OKC last year. In the interest of open disclosure, I was the skeptic that panned them. Obviously, I discounted them. I won't make that mistake again this year.

bob

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Bob-

I had forgotten your doubt was what prompted my original voicing of support for those guys.

Too funny.

sky

doode that avatar is painful! Still hurts!