Where Do You See Our Roster's Current Weaknesses?

Brad has said he's almost done barring 'tweaks'.  If this is roughly the opening game roster (minus one so we can get down to 15 contracts) then, in your opinion, how're we doin'? Are we ready?

Many, if not most, of these players are multi-positional so don't get your tighty-whiteys in a twist if you believe I miscategorized some of them.  I tried to put them in the correct depth position for the category I put them in, but feel free to point out if you think one player should be ahead of another on the depth chart.

As of today:

Ballhandlers - Smart, Schroder, Pritchard, Dunn, Edwards
Wings - Brown, Richardson, Nesmith, Langford
Swings - Tatum, G. Williams, Parker
Bigs - R. Williams, Horford, Kanter, Fernando


Bob


.

Bobh,
There will be change before October 19 - Brad have to cut roster down to 15 players.
If we take afore mentioned team, I'd say our weakness is at 4. GW, Fernando and Parker don't give me a lot of confidence; AH is kind of old.

AK

I will take a stab.

The Celts have a glaring hole at 4.  The Celts don't have quality offense after Tatum and Brown.  These are their two glaring weaknesses.

Can we move the ball and put teams in rotation?  If yes, then we have slashers in Schroder and Richardson to take good advantage of that.  For that actions have to be fast to give enough time for such actions.  Last year, both JT and JB were ponderous.

I am looking at various lineup combinations.  Schroder, Richardson, JB, JT and RWill.  Very fast, excellent offense, quality defense but not enough physicality.  Schroder, Smart, JB, JT and RWill.  Better defense and physicality but less offense.  Smart, Richardson, JT, JB and Al.  Excellent offense, slower, good physicality and weaker defense.  Schroder, Smart, Richardson, JT/JB and Al/RWill.  Good all around against other team's rotations that include bench players.

Those appear to be the top 7 in rotation.  The yung'us will provide the 8-9 help.  Kanter will be deployed to bang hard against Embiid.

With this, we just don't measure up to the Nets, but then who does unless the Nets again run into injury issues.

We will have a really hard time with Miami but we can compete.  I think that the Heat have the upper hand.  Lowry, Robinson, Tucker, Butler and Adebayo.  Really good combination of offense, defense and physicality.  Herro, Markeiff Morris and Dedmon is not a scary bench.

We can match up with he Bucks after they lost Tucker (and hence some perimeter defense).

Overall, something to look forward to, after all we coming from a season where we finish 7th in the East!

I think we still lack that dynamic 4 we have been "dreaming" about for years now.

Call it Swing or a Big if we had someone like Bam or Michael Porter Jr. or Randle or M. Harrel or Collins... Or even like Jaren Jackson Jr or Bobby Portis or D. Saric to have some proper backup behind Tatum/Horford.

It is even on display in your list Bob - Who is behind Tatum there - G.Williams? Sorry pass. Parker - maybe in one more year if he commits to learning defense and can actually do it. Apart from Fernando who let's face it - is a SL project and some minutes from Al we still lack depth and muscle in that PF position.

More sauce for the goose...


https://www.celticsblog.com/2021/8/19/22632325/brad-stevens-recaps-celtics-offseason-moves-dennis-schroder-josh-richardson-enes-kanter-tatum-brown



Brad Stevens recaps Celtics offseason moves



Brad Stevens discussed the Celtics adding Josh Richardson, Dennis Schröder, Enes Kanter and more as winning now appears part of the flexibility plan.


By Bobby Manning@RealBobManning  Aug 19, 2021, 3:42pm EDT



Boston Celtics Introduce Ime Udoka Press Conference
Photo by Brian Babineau/NBAE via Getty Images



Brad Stevens discussed the Josh Richardson trade, Dennis Schröder signing and Enes Kanter addition, while reflecting on his transition to president this offseason. He thought about what worked and didn’t last year, learned the role quickly, then tried to stay diligent, making the right moves. Flexibility became his initial theme, then it became clear the Celtics also want to build momentum toward future deals, instead of tearing down the roster to find cap space.

Thursday’s press conference marked an unofficial end to his first busy offseason, as only ancillary moves, like finding a second two-way contract, and eventually cutting the roster down to 15 for the regular season remain — with nothing imminent.

The team projects to excel at defense and play multiple different styles, as Ime Udoka noted at Summer League. He’ll take full control of the minute and role allocation in training camp, with Stevens humbly noting one of the Celtics’ improvements could come at head coach. The still unofficial Marcus Smart extension went unaddressed, aside from giving a nod toward Smart’s role in building Boston’s winning through his tenure.


Boston Celtics Introduce Ime Udoka Press Conference
Photo by Brian Babineau/NBAE via Getty Images


“I think that last year, with all the different injuries and the uniqueness of the season, quick turnaround, I do think that team last year was probably a little better than we played,” he said. “We improved our coaching, and we added a couple of really good players, and so I’m excited about this year’s group. I think one of the things that Danny always did a really good job of, he didn’t ever try to ever put a ceiling on us, and I would never try to do that.”

Stevens also revealed that he has approval from Celtics ownership to go deeper into the luxury tax, which is why Boston chose not to hard cap itself. The Smart extension makes the Celtics an above-the-cap team into the future, so going deeper into the tax through trade exceptions and traditional trades will be the only ways for Stevens to improve. The Schröder signing thrust the team over the luxury tax line, by just over $6-million.



The Celtics will eventually settle on 15 roster players, with 16 currently on the team entering training camp. Sam Hauser signed a two-way contract last week, leaving one more for Stevens to utilize. He said he’ll wait until other teams make cuts, as the Celtics assess a variety of candidates. Yam Madar and Juhann Begarin will play overseas next season, after Madar signed a three-year deal with Partizan Belgrade.

“I think the biggest thing that I’ve felt, as we’ve moved forward, is I want to be a team that Boston can really get behind,” Stevens said. “That plays with a great edge, that plays with a grit and toughness that’s necessary to compete at the very, very highest level. I think Ime and his staff will do a great job coaching to that and we have a lot of players that have proven themselves as competitors.”


Schröder signing


Phoenix Suns v Los Angeles Lakers - Game Six
Photo by Adam Pantozzi/NBAE via Getty Images


The Celtics didn’t think Schröder would be available to them when free agency opened, without cap space or a desire to hard cap the team, and with the point guard standing among the most talented players in the class. Then, the money dried up, the Lakers traded for Russell Westbrook and Boston held some of the most opportunity in its back court that interested teams could provide.


“I think we were really fortunate,” Stevens said. “He is super edge, super competitor, is a guy who can impact the game at so many levels, and plays both ends of the court. Those guys just give us a lot of flexibility ... and Marcus, Jaylen, and Jayson, Al and Rob. We’ve got seven proven guys who have been able to play at a starter and finisher level.”

Stevens emphasized the new defensive identity Udoka and he wanted to build a team around. They got older in their core rotations and players like Schröder, Richardson and Kanter will likely provide greater reliability than younger players like Payton Pritchard, Aaron Nesmith and Grant Williams brought at those positions in recent seasons. It also allows those players to continue to have mentorship and be challenged for minutes.

“Schröder can play above his height and is a pest when he picks up and when he gets into the ball,” Stevens said. “He’s as disruptive as you can be. So I think that obviously there’s two sides of the ball. To win a game, you’ve got to play both sides well. To be a great team, and a team that’s in the mix, you should probably be in the top five-to-six on both sides.”


Richardson trade


2021 Las Vegas Summer League - Boston Celtics v Denver Nuggets
Photo by Garrett Ellwood/NBAE via Getty Images


The Celtics added a player that fit the team’s new theme in Richardson, who can handle the ball and defend a variety of positions. They also retained flexibility on a one-year contract, and allowed Boston to maintain the roughly $11 million remaining in the Gordon Hayward trade exception beyond the TPE’s late-August expiration date.


“(It was) our biggest opportunity, with the resources that we had going in to make sure that we solidify ourselves,” Stevens said. “Josh brings a great grit, an edge, he can defend multiple positions ... he wants to win. Winning is very important to him. The way he separated himself when he joined the league, being a mid-second round pick, he showed his competitive character out of the gate. That’s something we’re looking forward to.”

Like Udoka last week, Stevens acknowledged Richardson did not shoot well last year and believes he’ll improve on open looks. Numbers Stevens saw indicated Richardson can keep his lineups spaced enough.


Kanter signing


Portland Trail Blazers v Denver Nuggets - Game Five
Photo by Bart Young/NBAE via Getty Images


The Celtics returned Kanter on a one-year, league minimum deal that will pair him with Robert Williams III, Al Horford, Grant Williams and Bruno Fernando in the front court. He signed after averaging 11.2 points and 11.0 rebounds per game in Portland last year. Kanter’s 2019-20 season in Boston ranked as one of the greatest rebounding seasons in Celtics history.

Taylor Snow
@taylorcsnow
Yup. Enes has the best single-season rebounding percentage on record for a Celtics player, and it's not even close.



Keith Smith
@KeithSmithNBA
Kanter is the best rebounder Boston has had in years. And he's the best offensive rebounder the team has had in decades.


“We were very fortunate to add him, given the market,” Stevens said. “He’s a guy who brings us toughness. With his ability to rebound and score the ball, he’s good for our team.”


Evan Fournier departure


New York Knicks Introduce New Signees
Photo by Dustin Satloff/Getty Images


Stevens said the Celtics and Fournier shared their numbers entering free agency, before both sides decided to go in different directions. The Knicks paid Fournier a four-year, $78-million contract, and Boston acquired a $17.1-million trade exception that will last until late next summer — Stevens sending New York a second round pick as sweetener for the TPE along with a heavily protected Charlotte second.

Adding Fournier didn’t go how Boston planned, between an early playoff exit and long COVID-19 hiatus. Between that and Brown’s late-season surgery, the Celtics barely saw its core together with Fournier, who shot and scored well, but struggled to defend on the perimeter in the Nets’ 4-1 series win over Boston in the first round of the playoffs.

“We really liked Evan,” Stevens said. “Where he was, he chose a different option, but he’s a good player ... he had some really good moments ... I thought that there were just challenges. He’ll continue to have a really good career ... we just thought that being able to open up more space to be able to take in, whether it’s one salary, whether it’s several salaries, the more flexibility we have, the better.”


Summer league takeaways


Boston Celtics v Denver Nuggets
Photo by Ethan Miller/Getty Images


Boston went 4-1 in Summer League, showing evident strides from Payton Pritchard and Aaron Nesmith, while Romeo Langford played more sound defense. Bruno Fernando displayed some energizing shot blocking and finishing abilities on either end of the floor. Stevens watched live with Udoka. While the influx of new talent provides somewhat of an uphill battle for Boston’s young cast, there will be some wing minutes with Fournier departing.

“I was really encouraged,” Stevens said. “Joe and a lot of our staff members that we’ve added, a couple we picked up for Summer League, they really did a great job coaching that team. Then I thought the players, led by the people that have been on our roster like Carsen, Payton and Romeo and Aaron all did a really good job. I thought Bruno was obviously a great addition when he was able join the team, and gave us a different look with his ability to get to the rim. I thought Sam had some really good moments.”

Stevens added Madar gave Boston some game-changing moments on defense before he got hurt. Madar played with activity that encouraged the Celtics’ brass in their first impression of him against NBA competition. Begarin’s verticality impressed too. He’ll likely return to Europe. Hauser will spend some time in Maine working on his defense.


Next steps


Photo by Brian Babineau/NBAE via Getty Images


Boston’s aversion to the hard cap, ability to take on salary and new-found depth signals two things. The Celtics will not clear the deck next summer to sign a player like Bradley Beal. Their next attempt at a star acquisition, Beal or otherwise, will come through a trade.

Adding more valuable players in-season by trading first round picks could be the next step in that direction, improving the Celtics immediately in 2021-22 and having bird rights on players like Richardson to bring them if they contribute to winning.

Taking on full contracts without sending out salary, or minimal salary like Mo Brown’s in the Richardson trade, will also build Boston’s array of salaries toward making trades later. Increasing Smart’s average annual contract value also helps in that direction.

Flexibility was originally seen as keeping max cap space next summer. Now, for likely several reasons, the Celtics have shifted toward becoming a team with substantial trade flexibility through exceptions and medium-sized salaries. They want to compete this year, an addition like Schröder showed, and shift in a more experienced direction.

The Celtics can now build some internal momentum toward improving its current cast as a winning group to attract stars, improve the value of these players around the league, or remain competitive if the stars don’t come.

“We want to be a good team,” I think that we’ve been fortunate to add some guys that can really play, I think that’s a positive, and I think that we’re in a good from the big picture standpoint. I can’t comment on some of the stuff you said about Marcus yet, but obviously you know what Marcus has meant to winning here and I think that’s been very obvious.”


Bob
MY NOTE:  I couldn't get the whole graph on the page.  For those of you who want to see the rebounding stats earlier than Kendrick Perkins in 2005-2006 take this link, https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EfK5Lt0XkAAlOz2?format=jpg&name=large  There are stats for Cowens and Parish that might interest some like, you know, Cowens Oldschool?


.

prakash wrote:I will take a stab.

The Celts have a glaring hole at 4.  The Celts don't have quality offense after Tatum and Brown.  These are their two glaring weaknesses.

Can we move the ball and put teams in rotation?  If yes, then we have slashers in Schroder and Richardson to take good advantage of that.  For that actions have to be fast to give enough time for such actions.  Last year, both JT and JB were ponderous.

I am looking at various lineup combinations.  Schroder, Richardson, JB, JT and RWill.  Very fast, excellent offense, quality defense but not enough physicality.  Schroder, Smart, JB, JT and RWill.  Better defense and physicality but less offense.  Smart, Richardson, JT, JB and Al.  Excellent offense, slower, good physicality and weaker defense.  Schroder, Smart, Richardson, JT/JB and Al/RWill.  Good all around against other team's rotations that include bench players.

Those appear to be the top 7 in rotation.  The yung'us will provide the 8-9 help.  Kanter will be deployed to bang hard against Embiid.

With this, we just don't measure up to the Nets, but then who does unless the Nets again run into injury issues.

We will have a really hard time with Miami but we can compete.  I think that the Heat have the upper hand.  Lowry, Robinson, Tucker, Butler and Adebayo.  Really good combination of offense, defense and physicality.  Herro, Markeiff Morris and Dedmon is not a scary bench.

We can match up with he Bucks after they lost Tucker (and hence some perimeter defense).

Overall, something to look forward to, after all we coming from a season where we finish 7th in the East!

So you don't see PP in the rotation? It bothers me that we would be relying on three players that we pretty much know won't be back next year and that won't really compete for a banner this year.

atcross wrote:

So you don't see PP in the rotation? It bothers me that we would be relying on three players that we pretty much know won't be back next year and that won't really compete for a banner this year.

What can one do? I have been struggling thinking about various options and what is the right thing to do. Ultimately settled on the conclusion that we have a decent hand, not the best, and now we have to play it the best that we can. The "best that we can" translates to play the best lineups and give yourself the best chance of winning. Thus I conclude that the yung'uns are at the end of the options list. To play, PP will have to get ahead of Smart and Schroder. The chances of that are very low.

As for the next year, Schroder will be gone. We could sign JR using Bird rights. We could add players into TPEs, likely free agents S&T, which would hard cap us. So, we may have to dump Horford. We may have to package some yung'uns to get a better player.

The best case scenario for this year is that we play well, some good player shakes loose by the trade deadline and we can use our TPE, or a star shakes loose and we can combine players to put together a high salary package, and finally, the injury gods help us this year after being quite unkind to us.

prakash wrote:

atcross wrote:

So you don't see PP in the rotation? It bothers me that we would be relying on three players that we pretty much know won't be back next year and that won't really compete for a banner this year.

What can one do?  I have been struggling thinking about various options and what is the right thing to do.  Ultimately settled on the conclusion that we have a decent hand, not the best, and now we have to play it the best that we can.  The "best that we can" translates to play the best lineups and give yourself the best chance of winning.  Thus I conclude that the yung'uns are at the end of the options list.  To play, PP will have to get ahead of Smart and Schroder.  The chances of that are very low.

As for the next year, Schroder will be gone.  We could sign JR using Bird rights.  We could add players into TPEs, likely free agents S&T, which would hard cap us.  So, we may have to dump Horford.  We may have to package some yung'uns to get a better player.

The best case scenario for this year is that we play well, some good player shakes loose by the trade deadline and we can use our TPE, or a star shakes loose and we can combine players to put together a high salary package, and finally, the injury gods help us this year after being quite unkind to us.

Sorry but I don't see DS, JR, AH, and EK winning more than five more games than our young'ens. Maybe less than our young'ens because our young'ens have all played together. And winning a few more games with players who won't be here doesn't really mean more stars are going to want to come here. We can agree to disagree but we are not going to do ourselves any favors giving minutes to players who won't be here and won't win anything worthwhile while they are. Frankly, based on potential, I see PP, AN, and maybe one or two of the others being bettter than DS, JR etc. by the end of the season.

@atcross

Sure. It could be that the yung'uns are played more. I have no idea of what the priorities will be. What I wrote was my best guess.

prakash wrote:@atcross

Sure.  It could be that the yung'uns are played more.  I have no idea of what the priorities will be.  What I wrote was my best guess.

Your guess may be right. Mine is just a hope.

The big weakness remains bigs.

RWIII, Horford, Kanter and Fernando aren’t the stuff conferences or even divisions are won with.

NYCelt wrote:The big weakness remains bigs.

RWIII, Horford, Kanter and Fernando aren’t the stuff conferences or even divisions are won with.

That’s why I was so excited about Moses Brown, a legit 7’2” 21 year old baby with length and his best attribute was rebounding, on a dirt cheap contract. Having his size would have been better to go into war with the Embid’s/Giannis/Lopez IMHO.

Bob H those rebounding stats are totally meaningless to me. My eye test tells me Cowens and Parish brought way more everything to the table than Kanter ever, even though he is a pretty good rebounder. Ever see how many points he gives up on defense? He literally offers almost no help on help defense.

Exactly. That rebounding graphic is laughable at best. That’s where numbers get misconstrued and become meaningless. That’s across numerous eras and rule changes etc. GTSOH!

I think our biggest positional weakness is the lack of a quality BU PF.  I expect Boston to play some 3 wing lineups (Tatum, Brown and Richardson)

With both Kemba and EF gone, their points need to come from a variety of players.  That may be a bigger overall challenge than not having a good PF.

I am really looking forward to the new season and a new style of play.