Jalen Rose Issues Warning To Celtics About Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown

https://nesn.com/2021/12/jalen-rose-issues-warning-celtics-jayson-tatum-jaylen-brown/



Jalen Rose Issues Warning To Celtics About Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown


Breaking up the duo could spell more trouble for Boston



by Ricky Doyle

Yesterday


The Boston Celtics are stuck in neutral, consistently hovering around .500 for most of the 2021-22 NBA season and unable to reach a new gear to begin climbing the Eastern Conference standings.

The mediocrity dates back to last season, in fact, making it all the more troublesome that the C’s haven’t shown much progress under first-year head coach Ime Udoka.

Obviously, something needs to change. But Jalen Rose isn’t convinced that breaking up the duo of Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown would be in Boston’s best interest.

“You might look at the Eastern Conference standings and be like, ‘Wait a minute. We have Tatum and Brown and (Marcus) Smart, and we’re not one of the best three or four teams in our conference? Maybe we should make a move,’ ” Rose said this week on ESPN. “Let me tell you something: Do not break up Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown. By no means.

“If you’re watching the trends of NBA games, you need those 6-6 to, like, 6-9 players that can play multiple positions, that can dribble, pass and shoot, that can shoot the 3. And Jaylen Brown can guard multiple positions with the best of them in the game. They’re both really good athletes, and they’re both young. So you build around them. You don’t break them up.”


Indeed, Boston’s best move might be to ultimately add a third star to the Tatum-Brown pairing. The problem is that’s easier said than done, as the Celtics no longer have an abundance of appealing assets with which to wheel and deal. Brad Stevens, in his first year as the team’s president of basketball operations after replacing Danny Ainge, would need to get creative.

Still, trading away either Tatum or Brown — the latter seemingly a more likely trade candidate — probably is the last-case scenario as the Celtics look to make headway and rebound from their prolonged slump. While Tatum and Brown haven’t always meshed on the court, each player’s talent is undeniable. And, as Rose noted, they’re still young, leaving the door open for some untapped potential.

The question becomes: How much patience do the Celtics have?


Bob
MY NOTE: Brad has patience, Wyc and Pags have patience, that's not the question. The question is "how patient are Celtic fans?"


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When the team had a third star, or in the case of Hayward, an almost star, we did rather well.  The problem was that one suffered from an age related wear and tear injury and the other one suffered an unimaginable injury and they both ended up as part timers.

Okay there was a third player, but he was always in it for himself.  'Nuf said about that rat bastard.

I am not convinced that we need an all-NBA player here, we just need a player who can help us not lose all these close games.

Bob brought up IT in another thread.  Maybe a player like him fits the bill.  After his current 10-day contract runs out, maybe he will become available.  The Celtics should pounce because nothing else they have tried, during last season or this one, has worked.

At the very minimum, IT will get the Boston crowd off their seats and cheering on the C's!!

I Concur. (1) You know who is a rat bastard (love that) and (2) that IT could and would help us immensely. Sure he's defensively challenged but from what I’ve seen he still has enough burst and creates so many problems for other teams because of his offensive superiority. HE.CAN.SCORE. And won’t nut up when the game is on the line. The Fakers just signed another offensive minded player in Collison so maybe they’ll continue their stupidly and let IT go after his 10 days are up and then we can pounce.

Ktron wrote:I Concur. (1) You know who is a rat bastard (love that) and (2) that IT could and would help us immensely. Sure he's defensively challenged but from what I’ve seen he still has enough burst and creates so many problems for other teams because of his offensive superiority. HE.CAN.SCORE. And won’t nut up when the game is on the line. The Fakers just signed another offensive minded player in Collison so maybe they’ll continue their stupidly and let IT go after his 10 days are up and then we can pounce.

If you can sign the corpse formerly known as Joe Johnson to a 10 day contract why wouldn’t you sign I.T.?

Could Lakers lack of need reunite Isaiah Thomas, Celtics?

https://sports.yahoo.com/could-lakers-lack-reunite-isaiah-204355456.html

Comment at the bottom of the article: "I had a feeling Isaiah was too young to be a Laker."

willjr wrote:

Ktron wrote:I Concur. (1) You know who is a rat bastard (love that) and (2) that IT could and would help us immensely. Sure he's defensively challenged but from what I’ve seen he still has enough burst and creates so many problems for other teams because of his offensive superiority. HE.CAN.SCORE. And won’t nut up when the game is on the line. The Fakers just signed another offensive minded player in Collison so maybe they’ll continue their stupidly and let IT go after his 10 days are up and then we can pounce.

If you can sign the corpse formerly known as Joe Johnson to a 10 day contract why wouldn’t you sign I.T.?

Mind boggling

IT’s last 2 games he went 1-5 and 1-11

He’s shooting 30% from field and 20% from 3 since he’s been back

gyso wrote:Could Lakers lack of need reunite Isaiah Thomas, Celtics?

https://sports.yahoo.com/could-lakers-lack-reunite-isaiah-204355456.html

Comment at the bottom of the article: "I had a feeling Isaiah was too young to be a Laker."

The pre-Christmas spiked egg nog their GM Lebron was partaking in led to the IT signing. When he sobered up it was “What the hell was I thinking signing this youngster”. 40 and over tryouts continue.

cowens/oldschool wrote:IT’s last 2 games he went 1-5 and 1-11

He’s shooting 30% from field and 20% from 3 since he’s been back

This is their Gm Lebron’s way of blaming IT for those losses.

Jalen Rose spoke to long wing players that can dribble, pass, shoot and guard multiple positions. Neither J checks all these boxes as well as say a healthy (preinjury) Gordon Hayward who actually was a point forward (dribble into traffic without coughing up the ball while decision making pass, shoot, or come back out). And that’s all right, but they’re not among those most well rounded wings — next tier down. Essentially neither one has a real good handle or eye for the court and their progress in this regard is painfully slow. Again true point forwards are rare. I would have loved for Rondo to come here and show and perhaps even teach them how to better see the court but that ship appears to have sailed. As many on this board have suggested a strong point guard is needed.

BingBang! wrote:Jalen Rose spoke to long wing players that can dribble, pass, shoot and guard multiple positions. Neither J checks all these boxes as well as say a healthy (preinjury) Gordon Hayward who actually was a point forward (dribble into traffic without coughing up the ball while decision making pass, shoot, or come back out). And that’s all right, but they’re not among those most well rounded wings — next tier down. Essentially neither one has a real good handle or eye for the court and their progress in this regard is painfully slow. Again true point forwards are rare. I would have loved for Rondo to come here and show and perhaps even teach them how to better see the court but that ship appears to have sailed. As many on this board have suggested a strong point guard is needed.

Badabing Badabang!

I think you're right. Neither of them are natural point forwards. Could they become better? Sure, absolutely, and we should expect them to get better but they aren't naturals.

I'm of the school that believes point guards are born, not trained. You either got it or you don't, and neither of them got it. That doesn't mean that they can't pass, they can, but running the offense through them is not the same thing as them making the 2nd pass when the defense rotates.


Bob


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BingBang! wrote:Jalen Rose spoke to long wing players that can dribble, pass, shoot and guard multiple positions. Neither J checks all these boxes as well as say a healthy (preinjury) Gordon Hayward who actually was a point forward (dribble into traffic without coughing up the ball while decision making pass, shoot, or come back out). And that’s all right, but they’re not among those most well rounded wings — next tier down. Essentially neither one has a real good handle or eye for the court and their progress in this regard is painfully slow. Again true point forwards are rare. I would have loved for Rondo to come here and show and perhaps even teach them how to better see the court but that ship appears to have sailed. As many on this board have suggested a strong point guard is needed.

Perceptions are often wrong.  I respect your opinion.  Your expectations for what the Jays can or should be able to do may be flawed.  But for the sake of argument, please tell me what other pair of wing players on a team had great assist numbers?  Also, what is an acceptable assist number for them individually or collectively?

Once again I am going to ask that folks take a looks at the assists stats for other high profile wing players in the league.  Everybody loves Klay Thompson right?  How many assists has he averaged?  What about Paul George?  Kawhi Leonard?  I say go look at the numbers.  The very notion that there exist some wide canyon in the Jays play making abilities as compared to other high profile wings is preposterous.  

Go look at GH assists numbers (3.5 career numbers and best one year at 5.2 eight years ago)

There  no pairing  at SG and SF that is all around better than the Jays.

The issue with the Celtics has already been identified.  The Celtics lack that really good floor general.  When you have elite level scorers,  you must have a playmaking along side them.  

Based on their age and experience the Jay are both at or above where they should be.

dboss,
I think you have to look at assists to turnovers to get a better statistical look. On that basis and over their respective careers to date, Gordon is 3.5/2, Jayson is 2.8/2, and Jaylen is 1.8/1.8. But more recently, Jayson has shown solid improvement (this and last year combined) at 4.1/2.7, as has Jaylen at 3.1/2.7 (though his turnovers are up to almost match his assists). Gordon in the last two years, relatively healthy in Caolina is 4/1.9 - he remains a superior point forward as he doesn't cough up the ball nearly as much as the two Js to generate assists, particularly compared to Jaylen.
Meanwhile, Marcus Smart is at 5.6/2 which seems respectable for the starting point guard, 24th in the league, Chris Paul leads the league at 10 per game on just 2.3 turnovers.
With respect to perception, obviously beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but hopefully so is knowledge and experience. I keep coming back to this board for all three and I appreciate your views as well.
Havlicek averaged 4.8 and his peak years of 70-72 was at 7.5 in both years. They didn't apparently track turnovers until his last year of playing. JoJo White as the shooting guard had 4.8 and 5.3 in 70-71 and 71-72, respectively. Larry and DJ had similar peak numbers (DJ was a combo guard but same idea).
Jordan and Pippen averaged nearly identical 5.3/2.7 and 5.2/2.8, respectively, which begs the question who is Michael without Scottie as much or more than who is Scottie without Michael?

Player in their 5th season.  /game

Player.............................Points...........Assists.............turnovers
Jayson Tatum (23)---------25.6----------3.8---------------2.8
Jaylen Brown (24)---------24.7-----------3.4--------------2.7
Kawhi Leonard (24)--------21.2----------2.6---------------1.5
Paul George* (25)---------23.1-----------4.1--------------3.3

*This is actually PG13's 6th season.  He didn't play in his 5th due to his broken leg.

The Js, combined = 50.3ppg, 7.2apg, 5.5TOpg (1.3:1)
KL/PG, combined  = 44.3ppg, 6.7apg, 4.8TOpg (1.4:1)

I know that Kawhi and PG didn't play together during those years.  So here's the comparisons for this year when these pairings are actual.


Player.............................Points...........Assists.............turnovers
Jayson Tatum (23)---------25.6----------3.8---------------2.8
Jaylen Brown (25)---------22.6-----------2.7--------------2.7
Kawhi Leonard (29)--------24.8----------5.2---------------2.0
Paul George* (31)---------24.7----------5.5---------------4.2

The Js, combined = 48.2ppg, 6.5apg, 5.5TOpg (1.18:1)
KL/PG, combined  = 49.5ppg, 10.7apg, 6.2TOpg (1.72:1)

The Js have pretty obviously taken a step back this year and KL and PG have taken a step up.


Bob


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Udoka has been in charge of the defense at most previous spots from what I have read. When we had a healthy roster over a month ago, saw a really good defensive stretch starting with the Heat game. The J’s have really regressed for the first time ever in their careers, they used to be at least good/gifted iso players, now too many times they can’t even do that. Is it me or have they increased bad possessions where they dribble into double-triple teams? We are terrible in tight games this year, it seems like if one is on the other is off, obviously injuries didn’t help and now Tatum will be out. Ime clearly is preaching how to play/pass more without supplying the necessary overall offensive strategy or system, J’s are trying, but they don’t have enough experience, just like the coach.

How many seasons-games do those 2J’s have to play before we stop making excuses for them?

Ktron,

Replace the 2 J's with one's children and it becomes very clear. We think of these Celtic superstars as "our kids" even though there is no relation. It's one of the perks of being a "fan". Yes, good parenting dictates we should be strict but fair and to make them self sufficient and a contributing member to society. But we cut our kids far more lack and defend them to the end even when they are not defensible despite the mounting evidence against them at times.

Anyway, just a thought. But your question is looming and at some point before February 10th it deserves and will get a definitive answer.

db