The G.O.A.T. Conversations

OK, I'm going to need this spelled out for me. With LeBron passing Kareem with the all-time scoring record last night, the G.O.A.T. conversations are in high gear/feverish pitch and have been for some time as LeBron has been approaching this goal. I just don't get why Bill Russell is not even on the page. I am stupefied. It pains me. I don't get it. I get Michael, I get LeBron, I get Kareem, but no one ever mentions Bill Russell. If it weren't for Mad Dog bringing up his name during some of these discussions, SAS even more rarely and everyone on this site who holds him in high regard and actually saw him play live, I would not know who Bill Russell was.

I know the early NBA is a bygone era, even further back than my recollection will allow. And maybe I'm about to answer my own question even before I ask it because of who he was and who we know Bill Russell to be. He wasn't about the G.O.A.T. or even being the G.O.A.T. He was selfless and all about TEAM. And oddly enough, he has 11 titles in 13 seasons to prove it. It would probably make him roll over in his grave if his name EVER came up in a G.O.A.T. discussion. He'd probably go throw up like he did before every game and rightfully throw up on the people that asked him the question.

Anyway, my question is, why isn't Bill Russell even in the main discussion like LeBron, Jordan and Kareem are? Is it something statistical? Is it something to do with elapsed time? Is it marketing in that his story just isn't as glamorous as the other 3? What is it?!!! Please someone, set me straight and tell me once and for all what the effing deal is and why Bill Russell is so unpopular in the G.O.A.T. conversations.

Thank you all in advance for leading me from the darkness to the light!

Love Always,

db

P.S. I would believe BR would be and is the greatest TEAM Player of All Time. He would be first and the NBA world would be hard pressed to come up with anyone even in a remote 2nd.

dbrown,

Great questions.

Maybe some of this is recency bias? Many of the writers we read have barely seen video of Russ, much less having seen him play.

I'm certain you're right about Russell not wanting or caring if someone mentioned him in the GOAT conversation. He often said that was not his thing.

I'm a little older, maybe that's why Russ goes in my top 5 when the subject comes up. We always end up saying you can't compare across eras, but really, where is the fun in the debate if you don't? I'm comparing Mikan to Russ to Jabbar and Shaq. I'm Comparing Ruth to Mays. I'm comparing Brown to Rice to Brady and Orr to Gretzky. Sure. I know the cross-era thing, but why not? Debate, disagree, have a beer.

Db, I don’t know what you have not been hearing or why but I have heard Russell’s name brought up in just about every conversation regarding GOAT.

I will agree that some of the venues and platforms that target the younger end of Millennials and the older end of the Gen Z’s tend to talk more about Lebron and Jordan and some Magic but for the Most part, my listening and viewing has not detected that Russell is Being left out.

What I do hear on the street, in Barbershops etc. and not over the airwaves from millennials and the younger end is more talk about Lebron, KD and not so much  the Kobe’s and Jordan’s, Magic down to the Russell and Wilts.

It’s indicative of what they’re familiar with. They are watching Lebron and KD in real time, in their prime and with todays technology they can get a dose on a daily basis.
The only way they can talk intelligently about the older set is to go to YouTube which most wont do and if they did most wouldn't understand the difference in play.
I have a friend (or soon to be x-friend) talk about how Kyrie would run circles around Cousy and laughs at the way Cousy dribbled and shot with one hand.
He doesn't fully understand the history of the game and how it continually evolves. One of my responses to him is that if Kyrie was playing in the 50’s and 60’s that is the way he would've played too. Same goes for the other way around. If Cousy was born in the 80’s 90’s and playing now he’d play the game the way the game is played now because thats how he’d learn it. Who knows who would be better. It’s silly for my soon to be ex-friend to make the comparison but he does it often. Too often. He also claims that Russell couldn’t play in this era and that LeBron would cook him up. Wrong again. Now you see why this friendship is about to end? BTW this dude is 36 years old. Consider the source.

Ive also heard a local Boston broadcaster, Tom E Curren make the reference that Russell is not the greatest because, you guessed it, he played against insurance salesman and cab drivers. He’s a born and bread Bostonian well into his upper 40’s (48) and spitting nonsense like this. His ignorance is unbearable and i have since stopped watching him and put him in the ‘FK you forever category.’

I understand your point db but I’m not hearing what you’re hearing from people who know and work the sport. The Dan Patricks and even the Cowherds know better.
Again, consider the source.

NYCelt wrote:dbrown,

Great questions.

Maybe some of this is recency bias? Many of the writers we read have barely seen video of Russ, much less having seen him play.

I'm certain you're right about Russell not wanting or caring if someone mentioned him in the GOAT conversation. He often said that was not his thing.

I'm a little older, maybe that's why Russ goes in my top 5 when the subject comes up. We always end up saying you can't compare across eras, but really, where is the fun in the debate if you don't? I'm comparing Mikan to Russ to Jabbar and Shaq. I'm Comparing Ruth to Mays. I'm comparing Brown to Rice to Brady and Orr to Gretzky. Sure. I know the cross-era thing, but why not? Debate, disagree, have a beer.

Ny,  It fun for me to compare the old heads with old heads and the younguns with the younguns  Its not when it comes to comparing era’s. Its futile and unresolvable. It may be fun for you but it ticks me off. (See my post above). To each his/her own.
As far as the beer goes, I’d end up throwing mine in their face so I avoid these conversations. Hey, at least I’m honest. LOL

Ktron,

I hear his name and didn't mean to imply there is no conversation about him but it's almost dismissive in order to get back to the main conversation which is LeBron and Jordan and maybe Kareem. Even Kareem will start to feel the push away from the table now that he's in second. And LeBron passing him only adds fuel to that fire. I think it's like you said, trying to appeal the the main eyeballs watching and ears listening to the NBA now. Our older eyes and voices are fading and will soon enough be silenced.

Might it also be Russell was more defensive in his play and that's not scoring? Heck some defensive stats weren't even recorded in his era. Wilt always used to get the scoring titles but was empty on Finals titles for a very long while until he figured it out. Russell didn't care about those scoring titles. You could have the points. I'll take the championships was his mantra. That worked!!

db

I don't know, Ktron.

It's not that you disagree with me on comparing across eras just for fun that bothers me. That's always OK.

What has me concerned is that you would waste good beer.

Hi,
My take on this is:
You can't compare players from different eras because they had different parameters: skills, height, speed, etc. But there's another parameter that is very important, that makes greats greats, that doesn't change from era to era. It's ability to impose your will over your opponent, it's ability to win. Here come 2 players that no other player, including Lebron, could overtake - Bill Russell and MJ.
As for Bill Russell not being appreciated enough, I think it's, as NYCelt eloquently put it, recency bias.

AK

Here is my take on the G.O.A.T. conversation.

Imagine this scenerio. you died tonight and turns out there's a heaven and ol St. Pete is holding things up at the gate checking to see who gets in and who is headed for warmer climates. When it comes to you there's such a fine line between you getting in and not that the good Lord his own self gets involved and decides its too borderline a decision to make, so he's going to give you a shot.

"You like Basketball," says the Lord, "so lets pick an All time team, everyone who has ever picked up a basketball, you take a team and I'll make a team. Our teams players will be plucked from their absolute prime, can be someone from the 50's.. could be some high schooler I'll fix things up."

You win, you get to walk in the Gates, you lose and you'll be dancing on the coals with Hitler and Judas five miniutes later.

The teams will be selected lottery style and he lets you take pick one.

As big a fan I am of warm weather, I'm still taking William F. Russel first. Not gonna worry about whoever else finds themselves in that situation.

NYCelt wrote:I don't know, Ktron.

It's not that you disagree with me on comparing across eras just for fun that bothers me. That's always OK.

What has me concerned is that you would waste good beer.

NY, Good beer wasted me on too many occasions. It’s gotten me wasted to the point that years later I’m still struggling trying to climb those 12 steps. :.)

dbrown4 wrote:Ktron,

I hear his name and didn't mean to imply there is no conversation about him but it's almost dismissive in order to get back to the main conversation which is LeBron and Jordan and maybe Kareem.  Even Kareem will start to feel the push away from the table now that he's in second.  And LeBron passing him only adds fuel to that fire.  I think it's like you said, trying to appeal the the main eyeballs watching and ears listening to the NBA now.  Our older eyes and voices are fading and will soon enough be silenced.

Might it also be Russell was more defensive in his play and that's not scoring?  Heck some defensive stats weren't even recorded in his era.  Wilt always used to get the scoring titles but was empty on Finals titles for a very long while until he figured it out.  Russell didn't care about those scoring titles.  You could have the points.  I'll take the championships was his mantra.  That worked!!

db      

I agree with the recency premise as well. The younger folks that are seeing Lebron (Take off that #6 you Bo-legged punk) KD can’t relate.

We hear more about our guys when someone breaks their record or they pass away. It’s whats top of mind and media has to run with the relatable.
I remind coaching clients all the time.

The audience has the power in the relationship. The only sustainable path to ratings success is finding a way to fit into the viewer/listener’s world. They only care about their experiences. A button punch or a change of channel can be the difference between cashing bonus checks and worrying about losing a gig.
It can be aggravating for us old heads but unfortunately media has to align itself with the way their target consumes content.

Regardless, Russ will always be my GOAT!