Let's Be Honest

With apologies to Rosalie and other avowed Marcus Smart fans.....

Is it just me, or is this year's Boston Celtics team SO MUCH MORE ENJOYABLE TO WATCH than the previous several editions?  For me, the key to this increased watchability can be explained in two words -- Marcus Smart!

I have loved the Celtics since I discovered them on black and white TV in the mid-Russell era.  I have stuck with them through thick and thin.  

But as the recent years have unfolded, I found myself enjoying the games less and less as Marcus gained more and more confidence, and evolved into the player he eventually became.

It reached the point where he would drive me crazy every game with his consistency of.....Jacking up way too many ill-advised threes.  I always became uncomfortable when the ball went to him because I just knew he wanted to put another one up from distance.  He consistently was first or second or third on the team in 3 point attempts every game -- on a team where everyone (except Rob Williams who never shot threes) had a higher three point percentage.

Time after time, he would ruin possessions and kill momentum with his three point attempts.  Hey, I was even unhappy when he made a three pointer because I knew that this only served to feed his delusion that he was a good shooter and that he would soon be jacking up more of them.

In the past couple of years, he expanded his offensive repertoire to include dribble drives into the paint into traffic where he attempted to finish with his left hand.  Sure, occasionally he would make one, but more often than not the result was a lost possession.  Maddening.

Last year he began to summon his inner Magic Johnson and started displaying these ridiculous no-look off the dribble one handed bounce passes in traffic.  OMG.  Defensive player of the year, sure.  But he was also guilty often times of trying to make hero defensive plays which resulted in reckless, costly fouls.  But nobody seemed to criticize him for this because he was regularly (and admirably) taking charges and diving on the floor to make gutsy plays.

We are so much more formidable with White and Holiday as the starting backcourt, it's not even close!  A check of Marcus's stats with his new team shows that he is once again among team leaders in three-point attempts, and worst three-point percentage, and turnovers.  And we ended up with Porzingis?!?!?  Brad for president!  Now if we could just work on Jalen's dribbling skills.....

I always rooted for Marcus, but can’t deny those are legit points. No question White and Holiday are better players, nether dribbles too much, which puts the ball in the J’s hands more. Hated when teams would use the Rondo defense on Smart and he’d oblige bricking wide open looks way too often.

I know a winner when I see it, and this team is a winner, So I am not silly enough or blind enough to realize that it was time to move on. White is such a basketball smart guy, and I think we have just seen the tip of the iceberg with Jrue, so I will bow to the truth, it was time for Marcus to move on. So, as big a die hard, 60plus year fan, l love this team!!!!

Bobby Manning @RealBobManning
about 2 hours ago
Holiday guarding… Julius Randle 5/16 FG 11 pts 37 poss Joel Embiid 3/5 FG 6 pts 32 poss Karl Towns 3/6 FG 7 pts 29 poss Giannis 2/5 FG 5 pts 24 poss Less luck against Jaren Jackson and Pascal Siakam, but his ability to be a primary defender vs. bigs makes this defense work


Bob
MY NOTE:  Jrue has been quiet on offense this year so far, so he's not Marcus in that respect, but look at those defensive stats!  Furthermore, Z has made it impossible just to swarm our wings and that's enough.  This team is just plain harder to defend because the threats can now come from multiple vectors. The Time Lord was a game changer on defense but he couldn't create offense for himself. Brogdon was great for us, of course, but Sam and Payton have stepped up their scoring and assists (mostly Payton) and so the loss of Malcolm has been mitigated.



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Count me in. The Celts got a haul for Marcus. Then Jrue showed me exactly how much better he is.

I have had a similar bitter-sweet relationship with Jaylen Brown. However, now that JB has got his money, hopefully, there will be growth in awareness and playmaking. I see a developing connection with KP. I see some hesitation moves making defenses shift. I still see him getting lost when too much situation read is required. Yes, JB is so much better than Marcus. Just that he has a frustrating limitation.

There is a lot of truth in what you say, prakash.  

I find myself comparing the old MArcus Smart alley-oops to RWIII vs. the new JB to KP, JB to Doogie alley-oops and I'd be lying if I said I didn't find the new version(s) much more satisfying and electrifying than the old.  Mainly because with RWIII you didn't know if that was going to be his last dunk for the next 18-20 games.  

JB may have found something while waiting for his time(s) to strike and score 40 when needed....a trip to dazzling AssistVille!!  They all seem to be into it.  JB says "I'll find you, just stay moving/cutting toward the basket."  The willing receivers say, "Just keep your head up and your eyes open.  I'll slam it through."  With Doogie the target range is a bit tight.  KP will say "Just launch it anywhere into the FT lane and I'll corral it, no problem!!"

Losing Marcus was really tough.  In the Larry Bird days and before, he would have been here for life.  No one gave it his all more than Marcus.  Not even close except maybe Paul Pierce since.  But this day and age, it's just different.  As owners, you don't have the luxury of holding onto something a couple of years if it's not working at the time.  These owners make 8-9 figure financial successes or mistakes each season.  All but one team every year makes these gargantuan errors.  Not saying Marcus was a mistake.  I'd never make that statement.  But for a (big) possible upgrade (or loss)?  Absolutely.  IMHBAO, Brad may be better at it than Danny in hitting the Northwest Quadrant (NWQ) with his savvy deals.  His ability to get by far the most bang for his buck is quite fascinating and like you say prakash, quite fun to watch so far.  And it's not just the math side. Those numbers have to add up for any deal. It's the intangible side and being able to see 2-3 years down the road with these players meshing together. That's the brilliance side. Any GM can go to the Trade Machine and see if the deal works. Heck, we can even do that. From the Heart, Brad's quite the Magic Man, Momma.  

Need to see some of his Magic (no) pun intended, tonight!!

db

We all love Marcus, he gave everything he had every time he stepped on the court. However, there is no denying Holiday is a better all around player. It was time for Marcus to move on, he taught the J's some valuable lessons. Now they can step up and be the leaders. Always wish Marcus the best.

I find it hard to realistically take a critical look at Smart and say we’re better off without him. I don’t believe you can compare the team with and without him unless you look at the sum of all parts. In doing that I think you have to consider that when we made the deal to trade Smart as part of the Porzingis deal, we didn’t yet know we could get Holiday.

I would argue that the player that made the roster changes necessary was RWIII. Brogdon, of course, was the original player going. Give me a healthy RWIII, keep Smart, and I don’t think you need Porzingis.

What’s more, and a few seem to be gently hinting, what if it was Brown we sent out? You can make the argument Tatum and Brown couldn’t get it done together, why keep them both? If you keep Smart and trade Brown, who do you bring back?

What if, what if…

We ended up with a strong starting five and a rejuvenated Horford in a sixth man role. I’m happy and enjoying that. I won’t diminish what Smart meant to the team, and could still mean to the group if he was here, however. There are very few complete players in the NBA. Smart’s shooting was hot and cold, but the rest of his game was championship caliber. If the Brogdon deal went through, if we had traded Brown, if we made some other deal but kept Smart…

Well, then we would probably be singing Smart’s praises instead.

NY Celt legit points, without Holiday I would still take Zinger over RWill and Smart. Z has all star skills, he would still help make the game easier for J’s without Holiday. We still couldn’t rely on RWill and Al, as has been discussed many times. DWhite, Brogdon and Pritch could have handled the point well enough….just my take

My point about Marcus has nothing to do with his ability to bring the best out of his teammates. He played every game like it was a playoff game.  He brought so much to this team, we could never forget him.  However, after that loss to Miami last year it was obvious that a change had to be made.  This threesome of the two J’s and Marcus along with DWhite and Horford did not get it done. Never mind RW. I think we always knew that he was never going to play a whole season and his impact was waning.  Smart had the personality of a leader, but with two young, highly paid stars, it was time for them to step up and become the leaders of this team. That would have not happened if Marcus had stayed.  His personality was and is just so strong.  Taking a step back is not in his identity.  So, I knew that something was going to happen that night that they lost that game.  The time had come. I will never deny the importance of Marcus Smart, he helped the two J’s grow up.  I wish him nothing but the best. I miss his actions on the floor, but. In reality, Jrue Holiday is a better player all around. 

Just sit and remember the nights when the ball ended up in Marcus’s hands at the end of a game and you would scream NO NO NO. Do not shoot that three!!!!!  Then he would make it and you would just laugh. That is the Marcus Smart I will remember, he always made me eat my words.

I want to thank the numerous Sam's Forum stalwarts who responded to my post in a thoughtful way.  I don't agree with everything that was said, but I appreciated the convivial feedback.

I very rarely post on the board, but I do read regularly.  I joined the board way back when as it was being founded and after a couple of enjoyable conversations with the great Dick Dorr.  I was appreciative of the recognition I received this time from Rosalie and Cow and Prakash et al, because in the past, my posting experiences here have not drawn much of a response.  I suspected that I was not being taken seriously because of my minuscule post count.

But being an infrequent poster should not indicate that I am not a worthy contributor.  I know basketball and I know the Celtics.  I go back to about the mid 60's with the Celtics.  I have played basketball.  I have coached.  I have written, I have P.A. announced (Loved Andy Jick!).  I have collected.  I have a collection of  well over 1,000 Celtics games on tape and dvd going back to the 60's.  Just ask Cow.  I would put my knowledge of Celtic's history against anyone's here.  So thanks again for the responses.

Getting back to Marcus.....For me the defining Marcus Smart moment was Game 7 against Miami in the Eastern Conference Finals two years ago, 2021-22.  You remember, that's the game when Jimmy Butler rebounded a Marcus Smart miss, dribbled the length of the court and had a wide open three pointer to win it, and he clanged the shot.

In that game Marcus took (and missed) the Celtics final 6 field goal attempts (including 3 three pointers) to give Miami a bona fide shot at winning the game and the series, as the Celtic 10 point lead with less than 4:00 to play melted.  In this game, Marcus also led the Celtics in field goal attempts -- 21 -- more than Tatum, more than Brown.  Are you serious?  He also jacked up a team leading 10 three pointers (the rest of the team took 22).  I looked it up.

To me, that was an indication that he considered himself one of the team's principal offensive threats and was oblivious to the harm he was doing to the team.  Finally, I will mention that I am aware of the charitable activities that he was invested in, in the community, working with kids, etc.  Much admiration for that.  Good luck with the Griz.

Oh birnam your the guy I bought tapes from 15-20 years ago. Your collection is huge and I think Sam introduced us, welcome back. Hope you can post more often.

On that Marcus Smart moment, I too was screaming No, Stop!!! during that stretch. It was terrible, Heat left him wide open and the ball always swung back to him. That was exactly what I was referring to on the Rondo defense. Smart is a very physical defender, but great players have no problem going off on him. Devin Booker, Curry in the Finals. Hopefully he’ll help Memphis.

Birnam,

Post a little or post a lot. Good to have you and all of our members share their thoughts and start original debates.

When we created this space, we knew we would even have members that simply like to read what’s posted. We have several of those to this day.

So post, read or both. We’re happy to have you and all of our extended Sam’s Celtic fan base with us.

Regards

I have been guilty of more reading than posting lately. Enjoy going through the different perspectives. The camaraderie here is refreshing even when we disagree with each other.

Keep it coming, prakash. All viewpoints are welcomed and respected. Like you said, you may not like what comes back, but this group of people are by far the most knowledgeable and respected Boston Celtic fans I know. They'll let you know. I come here before I go to major sports media. If something has happened in Celtic Land, you'll see it here first.

Keep it coming, prakash.  All viewpoints are welcomed and respected.  Like you said, you may not like what comes back, but this group of people are by far the most knowledgeable and respected Boston Celtic fans I know.  They'll let you know.  I come here before I go to major sports media.  If something has happened in Celtic Land, you'll see it here first.

Birnam

The Celtics decision to move on from Marcus was heavily influenced by a need and an opportunity to add KP.

The Celtics needed a high quality big man.   They got him in KP.  There may very well have been other considerations from moving on from Marcus. 

The very idea that Marcus would be replaced with Jrue Holiday sounds like fantasy basketball. Jrue seems to bring a calming influence to the team.  There is probably less tension on the team with Marcus gone.  Jrue will not call out his teammates or his coach in public.   Basically Jrue is more under control than Marcus.  As much as I appreciated Marcus, Jrue is an upgrade over him top to bottom.  Jrue has struggled on offense however his career numbers negate any concerns that I may have about his shooting. His defense has been nothing short of remarkable.

Moving Marcus has also opened up more opportunities for D White.  He logged 28 MPG last year and is playing 32 MPG this year and you just know that he will be in the game to close things out.   There no more "I hope Marcus does not take another 3 point shot"   Marcus Smart has never launched a 3 point shot that I expected  to go in...Never.

If nothing else, the dread of him taking too many 3 point shots relative to his ability to make them, is gone. That dread is gone from my thoughts.

dboss wrote:Birnam

The Celtics decision to move on from Marcus was heavily influenced by a need and an opportunity to add KP.

The Celtics needed a high quality big man.   They got him in KP.  There may very well have been other considerations from moving on from Marcus. 

The very idea that Marcus would be replaced with Jrue Holiday sounds like fantasy basketball. Jrue seems to bring a calming influence to the team.  There is probably less tension on the team with Marcus gone.  Jrue will not call out his teammates or his coach in public.   Basically Jrue is more under control than Marcus.  As much as I appreciated Marcus, Jrue is an upgrade over him top to bottom.  Jrue has struggled on offense however his career numbers negate any concerns that I may have about his shooting.  His defense has been nothing short of remarkable.

Moving Marcus has also opened up more opportunities for D White.  He logged 28 MPG last year and is playing 32 MPG this year and you just know that he will be in the game to close things out.   There no more "I hope Marcus does not take another 3 point shot"   Marcus Smart has never launched a 3 point shot that I expected  to go in...Never.

If nothing else, the dread of him taking too many 3 point shots relative to his ability to make them, is gone. That dread is gone from my thoughts.

THANK YOU DBOSS -- Yes, yes, yes, yes!!

What is this, the Marcus Smart , non-tribute thread ? Did we have one of these for Rondo and Perk when they were gone? Is this really necessary ? Yes, we are better.duh.

jrleftfoot wrote:What is this, the Marcus Smart , non-tribute thread ? Did we have one of these for  Rondo and Perk when they were gone? Is this really necessary ? Yes, we are better.duh.

Yeah we kind of did, in reverse, anyone who was around then knows I was bashing the Perk trade numerous times over and over. Losing Perk that year weakened our defense. This time we are marveling at the trade of Smart as it has worked out and taken the team built around the J’s to a new level.

jrleftfoot wrote:What is this, the Marcus Smart , non-tribute thread ? Did we have one of these for  Rondo and Perk when they were gone? Is this really necessary ? Yes, we are better.duh.

Interesting question. You also gave me the best laugh of the morning so far.

While I certainly respect all opinions, and we are here to debate different opinions after all, I think I saw the direction of this discussion in the same light as you. My earlier post addresses that, although I am enjoying this thoughtful debate.

What I think we're seeing here is human nature at work. If I may offer up an example by comparison, let me give it this shot; it's like breaking up with a girlfriend or wife, and needing to convince yourself that you're better off. The fact just may be the old one was pretty good too, but we need to make the mental adjustment that it was for the best. Our friends tell us they always thought we could do better than the girl we sent away. In this case, we tell ourselves we're better off with the new lineup. We just may be. Looks like it so far. But we need to make sure to throw some dirt on the former. So perhaps we pick on certain elements. She was always late to events, she didn't treat all your friends equally. Even if in fact she dissed your one friend because he never picked up the dinner check. Yes, she did run behind, but the diss of the cheapskate friend was actually justifiable. In this case Smart missed some 3's, or he often seemed amped up in the huddle. Yes, the 3s could be an issue, but the behavior was called leadership.

In my opinion, Smart was an excellent player, sent away because we simply had to do something to get bigger on the interior. Holiday is a great replacement, but we didn't know we could get him when we traded Smart. I don't need to downplay Smart's value. It was just a necessary step to make a needed change. Just like I didn't know I'd end up with my lovely wife who is always on time when I split up with my ex who was always late. Both are beautiful, intelligent and fun to be around, but I needed to be to events on time. Or was it better rebounding?

To a casual observer one may think it is a bash Marcus thread.  Context is everything.  Celtics fans love lunch pail guys and when one as good as Marcus gets traded it can leave an enormous hole.

The Celtics were in the right place at the right time.  The defense took a big hit when the trade for KP took place.  Quickly filling in the hole was nothing short of amazing.  The sting of the Marcus Smart trade was effectively removed by trading for Holiday.  A player that does so many of the same things on the court that Marcus did.     Seeing RW and MB traded also hurts but we all know that the business of basketball is consistently indifferent to the feelings of fans.

So we move on once again as we have always moved on when we believe that the team is reaching for a higher plain.

NYCelt wrote:
While I certainly respect all opinions, and we are here to debate different opinions after all, I think I saw the direction of this discussion in the same light as you. My earlier post addresses that, although I am enjoying this thoughtful debate.

What I think we're seeing here is human nature at work. If I may offer up an example by comparison, let me give it this shot; it's like breaking up with a girlfriend or wife, and needing to convince yourself that you're better off. The fact just may be the old one was pretty good too, but we need to make the mental adjustment that it was for the best. Our friends tell us they always thought we could do better than the girl we sent away. In this case, we tell ourselves we're better off with the new lineup. We just may be. Looks like it so far. But we need to make sure to throw some dirt on the former.

An interesting analogy, NYCelt. For me however, the conclusion above does not apply. I did not commence throwing some dirt on Marcus upon his departure. I was very critical of his play for several years preceding the trade. In short, I thought he was too often guilty of simply playing stupid basketball, and I was dumbfounded that it seemed that none of his coaches ever sat him down and laid down the law, stop taking so many threes. His negatives all too often outweighed his positives. Best of luck, thanks for your gutsy play, thanks for your charitable acts in the community. But I am so glad he is wearing a different uniform.

NYCelt wrote:

jrleftfoot wrote:What is this, the Marcus Smart , non-tribute thread ? Did we have one of these for  Rondo and Perk when they were gone? Is this really necessary ? Yes, we are better.duh.

Interesting question. You also gave me the best laugh of the morning so far.

While I certainly respect all opinions, and we are here to debate different opinions after all, I think I saw the direction of this discussion in the same light as you. My earlier post addresses that, although I am enjoying this thoughtful debate.

What I think we're seeing here is human nature at work. If I may offer up an example by comparison, let me give it this shot; it's like breaking up with a girlfriend or wife, and needing to convince yourself that you're better off. The fact just may be the old one was pretty good too, but we need to make the mental adjustment that it was for the best. Our friends tell us they always thought we could do better than the girl we sent away. In this case, we tell ourselves we're better off with the new lineup. We just may be. Looks like it so far. But we need to make sure to throw some dirt on the former. So perhaps we pick on certain elements. She was always late to events, she didn't treat all your friends equally. Even if in fact she dissed your one friend because he never picked up the dinner check. Yes, she did run behind, but the diss of the cheapskate friend was actually justifiable. In this case Smart missed some 3's, or he often seemed amped up in the huddle. Yes, the 3s could be an issue, but the behavior was called leadership.

In my opinion, Smart was an excellent player, sent away because we simply had to do something to get bigger on the interior. Holiday is a great replacement, but we didn't know we could get him when we traded Smart. I don't need to downplay Smart's value. It was just a necessary step to make a needed change. Just like I didn't know I'd end up with my lovely wife who is always on time when I split up with my ex who was always late. Both are beautiful, intelligent and fun to be around, but I needed to be to events on time. Or was it better rebounding?

                                                                                                                                                               Thanks for putting things in perspective.I am fine with the trades. To me this thread seemed like beating a dead horse, but everybody deals with things in their own way.

birnam,

So, using my analogy again, you probably would have split up with my old girlfriend a lot sooner than I did. Err... I mean traded Marcus Smart a lot sooner than the Celtics did! Got it.