Rondo, greatness and free throws

one of the biggest complaints critics have about Rondo is his free throw %. In fact its usualy the main issue pointed at by "experts" that prevents him being "great" or the best pg in the league ect...

but does Rondo really need to improve his % of made shots at the line to be truely great?

so far in his carreer he's never shot more than 282 free throws (hitting 175 of those for a 62%) his best season so far at the line was in 06-07 when he shot .647%. he's also never taken less 175 than free throws during the season. (35 for the season so far this yr) For his career he's at .623.

looking at one so called basketball great with a 13 year career i noticed this. Never shot better than .612% from the line, never shot less than 309 free throws or more than 517 in a single season, for his career he shot just .561.

Of course Rondo has a championship ring despite his "poor" foul shooting abilities, but if other guys can be considered "great" and be even worse free throw shooters, cant Rondo be lumped into that "great" conversation as well.

Im not suggesting there is no room for improvement, obviously I'd be thrilled to see Rondo suddely start acting like Ray Allen at the line, but thats not likely. still i think Rondo can continue to shoot FT's at the same leval as now and accomplish much in this league- just look at that other guy and his .561, he maneged to string together 11 titles during his carreer... his name: Bill Russel

Rondo has made 16 free throws this season. If he had shot 70%, he would have made 26 free throws. That's ten more free throws in 23 games, or less than half a point a game.

Of course, it would be great if Rondo shot better from the line because eventually it could cost a game and it may sometimes force them to play differently toward the end. But I'll accept half a point less per game if my point guard is a great distributor who accounts with his scoring and assists for 40-45 points per game, is a matchup terror far more often than not, forces most opponents out of their preferred defensive systems, and plays pretty good defense.

Sam

I hope he gets off that ankle soon, but with a game tomorrow, no rest for the weary...

What Sam says is true about half a point a game, but that really says more about Rondo's number of free-throw attempts per game.

For comparison:

FTM - FTA - FT%
0.8 - 1.9 - .432 - Rondo
3.9 - 5.1 - .761 - Derrick Rose
4.2 - 4.6 - .910 - Chris Paul
6.2 - 7.2 - .860 - Deron Williams
7.4 - 8.5 - .873 - Russell Westbrook

Every other elite point guard gets to the line far more than Rondo and obviously capitalizes on those opportunities at a far better rate. If Rondo shot his FTs at even a minimally acceptable .761 rate like Rose and used his superior driving skills more agressively, I don't see any reason why he couldn't get 6-7 attempts a game and an additional 4-5 points a game. What those other guys do at the free-throw line, especially Williams and Westbrook (and other guards like Wade and Eric Gordon), is give their team a big advantage over the opposition.

The other, related deficiency in Rondo's game is his mid- and long-range shooting. When playing "pick your poison" with the Celtics, other teams choose to leave Rondo open. When teams play those other guards, they are the primary focus for the defense, including their ability to shoot and score from mid-range and outside.

I love Rondo. His passing ability, his defense, his floor leadership running the offense are all top-notch, and he is a great fit for this team. But until he addresses his shooting, including (especially?) his free-throw shooting, he is not a complete point guard like those other guys.

Outside

Outside,

There are many ways to score in basketball, particularly when a team has as many offensive weapons as the Celtics. I think Rondo has discovered that the way he can best contribute to the offense is to distribute more and drive less often to the hoop.

His reasons for driving less often probably include concern about both his FT shooting and the fact that, when he drove more indiscriminately in earlier years, he got physically punished a huge percentage of the time. He now seems to be more selective in picking his spots to drive, with a focus on being more discriminating in capitalizing on legitimate scoring opportunities through his quickness.

His shot selection has moved more in the direction of jumpers, and it's not just my perception that his jump shooting has improved measurably. In the championship season, 36% of his shots were jumpers. Now, 49% of his shots are jumpers, and yet he's well ahead of his best shooting percentage ever, at more than 52%. His effective shooting percentage on jumpers this season is 46.6%, or one percentage point higher than Paul Pierce's 45.6%. Paul shoots a higher proportion of threes, which deflates his percentage; but, any way one slices it, 46.6% ain't chopped liver. (Stats from 82games.)

Thus many reports about his shooting deficiencies from the floor are old news. He's not great at it, but he's no longer nearly as hesitant to shoot the jumper, and he's been making a lot of them.

He does have major shooting problems from the line, so he doesn't go to the line often. Makes sense to me. To win NBA championships, a team does not have to have players who are wonderful at every single skill or are as "complete" (whatever that means) as their competitors. It needs players who provide what the team needs. In other words, role players. The Celtics need ball distribution from Rondo, and they're getting that this season better than ever before.

I've said, until I'm blue in the face, that I'm much more comfortable when the Celtics are not depending on a lot of points from Rondo because it means the offense is more properly balanced. A lot of Rondo's competitors at PG MUST score a lot because their individual scoring is a major strength of their teams. The Celtics are not other teams.

Ray Allen is subject to turnovers because he's not a great ballhandler; and there's no realistic way to keep him from handling the ball on the court. But the value of his shooting role vastly outweighs any ballhandling deficiencies he might have. There IS a way to avoid suffering from Rondo's free throw shooting problems so as to capitalize on his strengths; and that's what's happening.

There could come a time (namely when the Three Amigos are gone) when the Celtics will need more scoring from Rondo, more free throws from Rondo, and better free throw shooting from Rondo. The framework and system of the team may be very different then. When that time comes, I hope he'll be a better free throw shooter.

But right now, I couldn't care a whit about how Rondo compares with other PGs in terms of either drawing fouls or shooting freebies. That's not an expected strength of his part based on the system the Celtics are playing.

In evaluating individual players, there's always a context, and it's very often all about the TEAM. At least where the Celtics are concerned.

Sam

Hi,
Paraphrasing an olde English song: "What shall we do with a hobbling Rondo later in the game"
As I mentioned before, I believe his FT woes are mostly mental. As a friend of mine says: "Golf, unlike chess, is a mental game". The same, I think, applies to FT.
As for RR's jumpers, I think there's a "silver lining". RR's defenders know of his poor shooting abilities and give him a lot of room and he takes advantage of it roaming around, setting offensive combinations, creating passing opportunities.
On the side note, there's a long running thread on BDC where some people, me including, defend RR against a few die-hards who absolutely convinced that he has to be crucified after each game or, at least, traded for any of the premium PGs.

AK

Sam,

Please don't make yourself blue in the face on my account. As I stated, Rondo is a great fit for his team. In his role with the Celtics, he doesn't have to get to the line for the team to be successful. I know all about context and that "team" is paramount.

However, Matty asked whether Rondo needed to improve his FT percentage to be considered great compared to other point guards. That was the question I addressed. He's a great fit for this team and an integral part of their success, but compared to the elite point guards in the league, he's not the complete player that they are. That doesn't mean he's not a wonderful player, especially for this team.

The fact remains that FT shooting is a weakness in his game, and although his team doesn't need him to shoot (and make) a lot of free throws to be successful, his team would be more successful if he did. I am convinced that the Celtics would be a better team if Rondo could shoot 80% from the line and get to the foul line more often, especially late in close games. Westbrook is probably the best comparison in that regard -- a superior athlete who is so quick on his drives and in the open floor that defenses are forced to foul him, often with a desperation swipe by a wing player, not a bruising takedown by a power forward. I wouldn't expect Rondo to do it as much as Westbrook because Rondo has more weapons on his team, and dramatically increasing drives on his part would mean fewer opportunities for his teammates. But having that as a weapon in the arsenal would make the Celtics a more versatile and dangerous team. How could it not?

Outside

Can anyone believe that a member of this board would call Bill Russell a "so called basketball great "? "The horrah, the horrah." That member needs to get those hooters out of his head or his head out of those hooters.

Bill Russell defied categorization as per stats. Has this so called Matty looked up Russ's free throw percentage in the fourth quarter of close games? Don't think so.

Because - disregarding the fact that the stat isn't available - it would indubitably show that Russ shot probably 80% or 90% when the game was on the line. Once, an opposing coach decided in a close game that the way to win was to hack-a-Bill, as it were. Russ calmly went to the line and sank 6 or 8 in a row, ending that strategy once and for all.

Now Wilty was a bad free throw shooter, eerily reminiscent of Rondo in that he had no trouble making free throws in practice, but couldn't hit diddly once the game started.

To me, "player greatness" has to do with performance "in the clutch". Is the player in question one that you want to have the ball in their hands when the game is one the line and execution is critical? A half-point more or less is less significant, to me, if it's scored in the first half or the 3rd quarter than in the last few minutes of the game. I realize this definition would call into the greatness of Wilt, Shaq and some other OBVIOUSLY great players, but I'm willing to stick with it for a while longer because I think of players like Vince Carter with his 40% clutch fg% and Rashard Lewis with his 25% 3pt clutch shooting and, last but not least of course, D12 with his 50% ft shooting that cost Orlando a shot at a title.

According to 82games.com, Rondo shot 55% from the line in the clutch last season. He shot a slightly better but still excreble 62% for the season. His free throw shooting made him an even bigger liability when the game was on the line.

Having said all this, however, we have to consider other things like:
1. His defense.
2. His courtvision, assists and floor generalship.
3. The relatively few fta he takes in a game. If he doesn't take many fts, then making a big deal about his ft shooting is a tempest in a teapot.

Unless defenses start playing Hack-a-Rondo and make him start taking more fta with time running out since that's a better option for them than laying off him and letting him hit Pierce, Allen, KG and Shaq for higher percentage shots.

Shaq, fwiw, doesn't even have clutch stats at 82games for last season. He either didn't play enough total minutes to qualify (Turiaf was listed, though) OR he didn't play enough minutes "in the clutch" to qualify. Why wouldn't the Cleveland Cavaliers play their starting center in the clutch? Maybe because he was a liability on the line due to Hack-a-Shaq.

bob

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Outside,

I don't get blue in the face. I can't even seem to get a tan.

Actually, I believe Matty was not comparing Rondo to points guards as much as to "greats" in general. I believe (and Matty may want to correct me) his point was that players such as Russell (he didn't mention a PG by name) were not downgraded as "greats" because they were poor free throw shooters.

Obviously, any new weapons acquired by a player can make his team more versatile. I think Glen Davis is an excellent example. Yet I think this team has a great deal of versatility as it is, as demonstrated by their ability to mount a winning streak despite having numerous players (including Rondo) hurt or ill much of the time.

More versatility would never hurt. I wish Paul Pierce had more of an uptempo instinct. I wish KG were more of a banger on the offensive boards. I wish Ray Allen were a better ballhandler. I wish Perk would (fill in the blank). I wish Glen Davis could jump at least eight inches. I wish Shaq didn't utilize free throws to get 24% of his points.

I just don't believe it's essential for Rondo to be a 75% free throw shooter to be at least as valuable to this particular team as Westbrook et al are to their particular teams. That's the comparison I care about.

By the way, it's a questionable assumption that, if Rondo were fouled more often, it could mean as many as 4-5 more points a game to the Celtics. Those 6-7 attempts you speak of would not necessarily be additional scoring opportunities. In most cases, they'd come at the expense of other scoring opportunities for Rondo or the rest of the team that could arguably result in a total of at least 4-5 points (possibly more). So, as strange as it might seem, it could be contended that Rondo might be costing this offensively gifted team some points if he were fouled more often.

Sam

Sam wrote:Outside,


Actually, I believe Matty was not comparing Rondo to points guards as much as to "greats" in general. I believe (and Matty may want to correct me) his point was that players such as Russell (he didn't mention a PG by name) were not downgraded as "greats" because they were poor free throw shooters.

Sam

actualy that was exactly what i was trying to do in a sideways sort of roundabout way. Ive seen/heard a lot of debates or at least discusions that have Rondo being put behind other PG's (williams/rose/westbrook) due to his lack of being able to hit the jumper and being a better ft shooter. Every player has weakenesses, or at least area's if his game where he's not as adept as he is in other area's. Pau Gasol used to be "too soft." Kobe tried to do it all by himself too often. Shaq and Russel are/were low percantage ft shooters and so is Rondo.

With Russel though,despite a carreer % that was lower than Rondo's, is The Greatest Champion of all time. No one faults him for that or puts another player above him due to their being a better FT shooter.. same as Shaq.

Rondo is a unique player with amazing talents. One of them at this time isnt being able to hit most his shots from the line. Rondo has the ability to get inside and draw fouls, we've seen him do it countless times. Looking back though, think of how often 171 pound Rondo went inside and drew the foul.. then picked up his body off the floor visibly shaken.

We've seen that less this season than ever before. personally im gratefull for that fact as i think it'll translate into Rondo's career lasting a bit longer and Rondo's body being saved a bit more game to game and lessing the risk of an injury that could affect us in the title runs..

imagine if Rondo did suddenly overnight turn into Ray Allen at the line- and getting there as often as Paul Peirce? Rondo's body can't/wouldnt withstand that and it would cost us at some point.

I think that Rondo's 13+ assists (up 4 a game from last yr) are directly related to his driving into the lane less this season. That i think has made the team more proficent overall, the thing about Rondo is with his skill set he can adjust his game to benifit the team and lean on his own strenths and cover up his shortcomings.

to wit: I dont consider Rondo an imcomplete or less rounded player because his jumpers are not as high % as folks think they ought to be- or his ft shooting %- just as I wouldnt consider Russel or Shaq incomplete Centers because they have low %'s at the line.

Looking at Rondo we have a players who is Point Guard who plays some of the best defense of any point guard we've seen in years. on offense the guy is able to team apart a teams defense and put the ball into his guys hands right where their most likely to do the most harm, when teams leave him alone he is able to find a way to score- often seemngly at will- most likely though its just not gonna be from 17+ feet out or at the free throw line.

complete or incomplete is a mute point, the fact is, when he's out ont he court few other PG's are as efficent overall as Rondo- and THAT is the definition of greatness.