POST GAME BUCKS

Our starting lineup isn't there (Shaq is our starting center and he's out) and our second unit just about showed up after the last drop of rain. Think about it. Our second unit was Bradley (a 19 year old rookie who has spent most of this season in DLeague or sitting), Jeff Green (1st game with the Celtics 2/26), Troy Murphy (first game with the Celtics 3/2) and Sasha Pavlovic (first game with the Celtics 3/6, and today is 3/7). Man, when a 19 year old rookie who hardly plays is the old face on the Celtic bench, man that's thin. No regular starting center (Shaq), backup center (JON), backup forward/6th man (Davis), backup point guard/SG (West), no backup SG (Wafer), no new backup point guard (Arroyo). That's a pretty decent starting five in this league and that's who we're missing! Our bench began and ended with our 3rd string. Sure, the Bucks were down some players, as TJ points out. We were down some teams' starting lineup. We only played 9 players. Welcome to the club.

1. This was the absolute worst game I have seen Rondo play as a Celtic. His offense was excrement, his passing was excrement (8 turnovers!), and his defense was non-existent. He half-heartedly trailed Jennings around the floor like a puppy. It was only thanks to a couple of late game assists that he didn't have more turnovers than assists. For the first time, ever, I wanted Bradley to be in at crunch time, to play Jennings, instead of Rondo. Rondo's quality of play has dropped over the past month or so (at least a couple of weeks) dating back even before The Trade. Maybe, when West comes back, Doc should sit him down and let him rest against a lesser team. Take a night off kid. Let West start with Arroyo. We're playing NJ on 3/14, let West have some fun against Deron, we still have enough firepower to beat them without Rondo.

2. We started out cold as ice. The only two Celtics that were effective were Pierce and Krstic. I'm liking Krstic more and more every game. He has soft hands (which he now knows to keep up), he hits his free throws, his interior defense is getting better and I am really liking his perimeter defense off of pick-and-rolls. He is not only not letting him turn the corner on the pick, he is consistently driving the ball back. Is he that glowering, looming physically punishing threat to a driver that Perk is? No, but he's showing lots of other stuff that Perk didn't do well.

3. Pierce drove this team and made Milwaukee pay. The Captain saw Ray struggling in the first half, Rondo blowing layups (and defensive assignments) and KG's shot off and just said "gimme the ball". We only took 15 fta, which goes to show how passive we were, and Pierce took 6 of them. That was from playing aggressively and taking it to them.

4. Murphy has a loooong way to go. Still, he got 4 rebs (1 of our 3 offensive) in just 15 minutes of play. That translates to 9.6 rebounds per 36/mpg. That's not too far off his career average. Obviously, his shot is not dropping, but he has no legs and no rhythm from not playing since January. Today is his 5th day with the team and he hardly played at all in NJ, so I'm not really surprised, but it doesn't change the fact that he's currently a rust bucket held together with shoelaces and cotton. To say that Father Time has passed him by at 30, however, is decidedly premature. The guy was in semi-retirement for most of this season. PJ Brown didn't look too good when he first joined us either. In fact, Doc didn't even play him for a couple of weeks so he could learn the playbook and work himself back into shape and I think we all remember how well he did in the 2008 playoffs ESPECIALLY against LA. Murphy's not even getting that much respite, he's being thrown right into the fire. Why is that? Oh yeah, that's right, it's because we're shorthanded because we have a ton of injuries too.

5. Avery Bradley had a good game. His defense was quite sticky and not just in comparison to Rondo's crappy defense. He was hounding the ball constantly. His offense is still in need of work, but that's not why he's on this team and he knows it. Arroyo better show up focused and ready to ball, because Bradley's coming on.

6. Brandon Jennings is pocket dynamite. He's everything we had hoped Nate could be but didn't have the IQ to do.

7. This game was close, in large part, because of all the extra fga Milwaukee got from offensive rebounds. 12 offensive rebounds (as opposed to 2 for us) and 12 more fga by the Bucks. Even when you're only shooting 41%, that still translates into 5 points, maybe even more when you consider they shot 38% from 3. Their energy level in the first half was much higher than ours. In the second half, we just out-executed them. Only 34 points in the second half by Milwaukee on 12-36 shooting (7-17 in the 3rd and 5-19 in the 4th). Our defense, which has been of concern to me, what with the addition of some not-defensive-oriented newbies, really showed up in the second half last night. We were back. Let's see how long that defense sticks around. Personally, I think that with every passing day of practice, skeleton drills and games our defense will get better and better and better. We are dealing with a lot of newbies. A lot.

8. Green is becoming more and more fluid. He's got a nice turnaround jump shot, he's running the floor like he knows he'll get the ball. His defense is still a little bit scatterbrained, but that can only get better. He's already a plus on the team.

I'm going to sacrifice a virgin to the Scheduling Gods that gave us these teams to play at this time. I have no idea where to find one (and have no idea why anybody would want one) but if that's the correct protocol, then I'm on board. The fewer the virgins, the better. We don't play again until Wednesday, in Boston, against the Clips. Three more days of rest for the wounded, three more days of practice for the newbies (whose count has now increased to include Arroyo). We are catching some serious breaks here AND we're making the most of them. We have lost only once since The Trade and that was in Denver before Green/Krstic joined the club. 5-1, with all the upheaval and injuries we've been through the past few weeks, is not bad, not bad at all.

bob

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Discussing Avery Bradley is not bitching about him.
Is he an NBA ready point guard right now? Not even close.
Would I love to have him on the Lakers in a couple of years? Definitely.
I praised the pick up of Arroyo because he will be the back up pg if West is hurt or in foul trouble.

You need to relax a little more around here.
I guess beat's way it the only way...
That got boring a long time ago.

As a reminder, you stopped talking to me for the 2nd or 3rd time about 4 months ago.

TJ,

Here's a suggestion. Give some indication of whom you're talking to, especially when you're going to use the word "You" so often in your post.

Thank you,

Sam

Someone explain to me this. Why is Derrick Rose lauded with praise for MVP along the lines of how much he has done while Noah and Boozer were down and all their other injuries (?) ? I guess Rondo can't find his ass with both hands giving our complete roster decimation to injuries and trades all season long, and yet we're in first in the East. Heck, even Rondo's been out a few games. We're not even near 60%.

read this great quote/assessment of the game

Celtics fans, it’s not you. Every team that plays the defensively strong but offensively weak Bucks leaves thinking it was an ugly game. This is not exception. The Bucks and Celtics were tied with 2:40 left. But the Celtics executed and outscored the Bucks 7-1 when it mattered most.

Even with all their issues, Scott Skiles still has them playing like he did. Hard nosed and scrappy.

Didn't Robert De Niro use the word "You" in the picture "Analysis This"?

You....You......You.......Your Good!


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sam wrote:TJ,

Here's a suggestion. Give some indication of whom you're talking to, especially when you're going to use the word "You" so often in your post.

Thank you,

Sam

Sorry Sam, I put beat's name in the body of my post but should have directed it to him.
Thanks.

dbrown4 wrote:Someone explain to me this. Why is Derrick Rose lauded with praise for MVP along the lines of how much he has done while Noah and Boozer were down and all their other injuries (?) ? I guess Rondo can't find his ass with both hands giving our complete roster decimation to injuries and trades all season long, and yet we're in first in the East. Heck, even Rondo's been out a few games. We're not even near 60%.

dbrown,

The MVP race is still up in the air.
Who would be your pick as of right now?

tjmakz wrote:For a team playing without Bogut, Gooden, Ilyasova and Boykins, Milwaukee should have lost this game by 25. Boston knows how to finish off teams in close games, so they did get the job done on the road.
Krstic and Green are playing well. I like Krstic's offensive game.
Murphy looks like he should be playing in a YMCA Mens League. I think father time passed him by at 31. I can see why he couldn't beat out Humphries and Favors in NJ.
Paul is playing like a captain should. He scores or gets to the FT line almost every time Boston needs to score.
Not sure what Rondo was doing on the court tonight.
Many have mentioned Bradley's defense but he is such a liability on the court offensively it hurts Boston to have him out there. I like his athleticism but he is a lost 20 year old SG playing PG for a championship contending team.
Not a good game by Boston but a win is a win.

tjmakz
I always enjoy the opinions of the loyal opposition. Of coarse some "Home town fans" can not handle the other side of the story and act accordingly. Don't let that stop you from voicing your opinion.

swish

Well, if we're grading on the above mentioned media curve, you'd have to give the edge to DRose since RR missed 9 games. D12 just shot himself in the foot by telling his whole team to step up, change your attitude and play like your life depended on it or sit out. Evidently that doesn't apply to him yet he will be sitting out at least one game for too many T's and uncontrollable, unchangable behavior. Hypocrite. Just when his team needs him most while MIA is free falling to at least 4th place he'll be riding the pine. Can talk talk but can't walk walk. Where's that story and the irony, ESPN? And he may be a Celtic one day soon. There's the real irony.

That leaves our poster boys DWade and LeBron. We're clearly going to have to wait until the end of the regular season and after the playoffs to determine if these two really are valuable in any capacity in any game. Are they really making their team better right now in anyway, shape or form? They can bully the bulliable but can't scratch against the heavyweights. After yesterday, the only thing valuable coming out of MIA is Pure Gold Hollywood Made for TV NASCAR drama. We're all waiting for the inevitable crash. If the Heat did manage to win it all, I'd give it to both of them since their lives have been so inexplicably destroyed by putting any human beings through all the attention and the losing and the attention and the losing and to overcome all that by coasting 16-0 through the playoffs would be truly amazing and certainly would be the least we could do for MIA given our distaste for them and all they represent and everything we have put them through.

So, we'll clearly give the edge to CHI's DRose for now. But I can guarantee he would trade it all in for one O'Brien Trophy, just like LeBron would do. RR already has one of those. So does DFish for that matter. And I'm quite certain neither the Celtics or the Lakers (or Bulls team) will ever let a LeBron-headed team hoist it.

swish wrote:tjmakz
I always enjoy the opinions of the loyal opposition. Of coarse some "Home town fans" can not handle the other side of the story and act accordingly. Don't let that stop you from voicing your opinion.

swish

yeah, Swish that is what it is.....LOL

LeBron might hoist a trophy but it won't be at least for a couple of years when Boston and LA are potentially on the downslide.
I think Rose has a slight edge too in the MVP race. Stats alone won't get LeBron the MVP like it has the last 2 years.
I don't know if you consider RR a top 2 or 5 MVP candidate, but I don't.
His assist numbers are significantly helped by having 3 great shooters on the court with him. Pass the ball to Ray or Paul and you get an assist.
He runs the offense well, but doesn't produce enough offensively to be in the MVP conversation.
In my non-celtics fan opinion, Pierce is the team MVP and maybe Garnett second. You might think Rondo is and I respect that if you feel that way.

Nah, just from the point guard that has had to over come injuries to his starters (and himself for that matter) and bench perspective. Just find it a little disconcerting which point guard has had to put up with the most crap and make your team better, keep winning and still have the second (and fourth) best record in the NBA, if that's the criteria the media keep harping on. Cleary, CHI can't do without Rose for any stretch. That alone makes him more valuable. That will be why, if we play them, we will win because it all just looks like LeBron II to us. Shut him down, and CHI will be done. We can fill for RR in the short term and we can last longer in the pinch, but CHI would fall apart for any stretch if he went down. Just ask SAS and TP and his "miraculous" recovery. I'm glad SAS was exposed yesterday for the frauds the Lakers made them out to be. That was a brutal taste of reality. Well done. Perfect stage.

The way Rose is playing I can't see any team shutting him down. He has added a pretty consistent outside shot which has brought his game to the next level.
Rondo can't gamble on steals against Rose.
With Rose, Deng, Boozer, Noah and their other parts, they will be a dangerous team in the playoffs.
Boston is the favorite, but that could/will be a great series.

Hi,
Sorry if I missed something but why all that fuss about MVP?
IMO, it's it's just a popularity contest. Look at the last 2 years: some won all accolades (MVP, best record) the others won one pesky award (O'Brien) - what's more important.
Also, you can argue who's MVP until you're blue and not breathing but there's no discussion that LAL are current champions.

AK

swish wrote:

tjmakz wrote:For a team playing without Bogut, Gooden, Ilyasova and Boykins, Milwaukee should have lost this game by 25. Boston knows how to finish off teams in close games, so they did get the job done on the road.
Krstic and Green are playing well. I like Krstic's offensive game.
Murphy looks like he should be playing in a YMCA Mens League. I think father time passed him by at 31. I can see why he couldn't beat out Humphries and Favors in NJ.
Paul is playing like a captain should. He scores or gets to the FT line almost every time Boston needs to score.
Not sure what Rondo was doing on the court tonight.
Many have mentioned Bradley's defense but he is such a liability on the court offensively it hurts Boston to have him out there. I like his athleticism but he is a lost 20 year old SG playing PG for a championship contending team.
Not a good game by Boston but a win is a win.

tjmakz
I always enjoy the opinions of the loyal opposition. Of coarse some "Home town fans" can not handle the other side of the story and act accordingly. Don't let that stop you from voicing your opinion.

swish

swish,

The term "loyal opposition" infers that we're all on the same team and want the team to win, we just have differing/opposing views on how to win.

While I appreciate many of TJ's thoughts, and disagree with many of them, and am always on alert to his sometimes myopic view of the Celtics, I do not believe that even he would try to claim that, as a loyal Laker fan, he wants us to win.

There's nothing wrong with being an opposing fan. There's nothing wrong with polite, courteous disagreement. Certainly "Loyal opposition" is welcome. I just don't think that describes TJ's role or position here. There are other opposing fans on this board who do not generate the same amount of heat as TJ without abandoning their teams. TJ's style of writing is more confrontational than theirs, and that's what starts it.

I appreciate your efforts to keep things civil and to encourage discourse, that is why I am here and not at BDC. Just as I am alert to his myopia, I am also conscious of my own green-goggled inbreeding and want to have others expose it. Sometimes. Occasionally. Once in a while.

bob


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sinus,

MVP voting is done right after the regular season is over.
If they waited until the Finals was over, then the MVP voting could be drastically different.

Hey, folks, this is going to be a convivial board if I have to commit murder to achieve it! (That's meant to be a joke, in case I have to spell it out.)

Let's examine TJ's initial post, which is what seemed to trigger some irritation:

TJ wrote: "For a team playing without Bogut, Gooden, Ilyasova and Boykins, Milwaukee should have lost this game by 25."

Actually, this game was no better than a tossup at the outset, in my opinion, for three reasons:

• The Celtics were playing without three centers, which left them very weak in the middle. So one advantage the Celtics might normally have had turned, instead, into an area of vulnerability. When a team has a significant vulnerability, it greatly reduces any other advantages it might ordinarily have had.

• The Celtics were playing without an experienced backup PG, so the bench was disorganized, although they did recoup somewhat in the second half. Another significant vulnerability. (For implications thereof, see above.)

• The uninjured remnants of the Bucks had more time-honed chemistry than the uninjured remnants of the Celtics, who are still integrating their lone center to the starting team and are integrating nearly everyone to the bench.

So that statement about the Bucks losing by 25 is simply a selective example of hyperbolic shooting from the hip, "bolstered" by highly selective and slanted reasoning.

TJ said, "Boston knows how to finish off teams in close games, so they did get the job done on the road." and "Krstic and Green are playing well. I like Krstic's offensive game."

Hard to find anything irritating in those statements.

TJ said, "Murphy looks like he should be playing in a YMCA Mens League. I think father time passed him by at 31. I can see why he couldn't beat out Humphries and Favors in NJ."

The validity of this one's a tossup. On one hand, it's (what's that word all men hate to hear...oh yeah, I've got it) premature to evaluate a new player after three games and 41 playing minutes, some of those minutes spent out of position, and most of those minutes spent with a bench that has had no direction. On the other hand, Troy hasn't shot at all well. On the other hand (the third one), I thought he was one of the new guys who looked to be well on his way to learning the defensive scheme. But TJ gets a pass from me on this one because he clearly states this as his opinion, which actually says more about him as an evaluator of players than it says about Murphy.

TJ said, "Paul is playing like a captain should. He scores or gets to the FT line almost every time Boston needs to score."

Anyone disagree with this? I thought not.

TJ said, "Not sure what Rondo was doing on the court tonight."

The delivery of this one is additional hyperbole from the fan of an opponent. In point of actual fact, Rondo was playing PG. That's what he was doing on the court. But it's also a fact that Rondo's game was mixed at best, and all those turnovers really helped the Bucks. My own guess is that, of all the Celtics, Rondo's having the most difficult time clearing his head of residual cobwebs from the Perk trade. So I can't fault TJ's message, even if he could have picked wording that had less potential for being inflammatory.

TJ said, "Many have mentioned Bradley's defense but he is such a liability on the court offensively it hurts Boston to have him out there. I like his athleticism but he is a lost 20 year old SG playing PG for a championship contending team."

I have to say, I groaned aloud the last time Doc put Bradley in the game. It's not that I think Doc had another choice. I was groaning because, in my mind, his reentry signaled more offensive confusion for the bench unit. Bradley does play energetic defense, but sometimes it seems almost too energetic, as he sometimes overruns opportunities. I think TJ's on the money with this one.

TJ said, "Not a good game by Boston but a win is a win."

It's tempting as to interpret "Not a good game" as meaning, "Oh doggone, the Celtics didn't lose a half game to the Lakers. (A bit of LOL there. Remember my rule that I can say anything I want as long as I follow it with "LOL.") TJ was correct when he said, "....a win is a win." As far as I'm concerned, any win by the Celtics as they struggle for equilibrium and cohesiveness is a "good game." And they've had five "good games" in a row.

I go to the trouble of posting this anal analysis (no, this is not "King-speak"), is to point out that, as a moderator, this is the kind of attention I give to statements that seem to cause some ill will. In this case, I think TJ showed his anti-Celtics stripes a couple of times but made an effort to offset his negativity with "positivity." I believe that has become his general approach to the board...accompanying any negativity about the Celtics with enough favorable comments to act as a hopeful buffer.

I think he's doing a decent job of it, and I encourage others to be particularly sensitive to his approach and the reasoning behind it. He wouldn't go to the trouble of carefully crafting his posts if he didn't respect the board.

So I'd personally appreciate it if people would contact me concerning any problems they may have with other posters rather than doing something like rushing to a public denigration of the conviviality of this board. "Conviviality," in my value set, deals more with style than with content. Moreover, if the conviviality of the board comes into question, it's more of an indictment of me than of any other poster. Because it's up to me to moderate any lack of conviviality.

LOL (See how well it works?)

Sam

bob,

I think I do show loyal opposition. I am loyal to my feelings/beliefs which happen to be opposed to the Celtics fans here.
Some here have an issue with anything I write. beat and others feel a Lakers fan has no role on this forum.
Nothing I have written about today is bashing or shows hatred toward the Celtics, yet I still get questioned.
Other Lakers fans post here once a month or less and I agree, they don't want to rock the green ship. That is their style, not mine. My goal is not to rock the ship or to upset Celtics fans, but once in a while is does occur.
Anyway, life is great for me as a Lakers fan and great for you guys as Celtics fans.
I am closing out my contribution in this Post Game Thread.

Sinus,

I agree with your take on the MVP award. I'm surprised there's even discussion of it on a Celtics board. What does it mean anyway? "Most Vapid Award?" There should be an MVT award. Most Valuable Team. Oh wait, there is. It's called a championship.

Sam

Sam,

I won't touch on your points but I thought me making such an asinine statement about Murphy would be taken lightly. He is not destined for the YMCA Mens League or my Tuesday Night pick up league. I hope no one was offended by that.
One last thing, I won't just praise Boston as I won't do so for LA or any other team unless they deserve it. I also won't go out of my way to post about negative Celtics things.
I am doing the best I can here trying to follow the rules. I hope it works.

Sorry, guys. My bad. I was just ticked at the media again and their slant on Rose and how much he has helped CHI given all their injuries, etc. Yet Rondo is pushed way down that list and conversation for actually doing more overall than Rose to date and still missed 9 games. It all comes back to the media's new romance or jilted love away from MIA and toward CHI.

TJ just asked me to elaborate.

You're right. I should know better than to bring up an MVP discussion on this board! I'm boiling the pasta right now for my 30 lashes!

TJ's posts give the forum a bit of needed edginess/tension. As an outsider, sometimes it seems a bit too convivial now, at least to me.

And yes, Rondo is definitely media's old fling. Yesterday's darlin'.

Lead us to #18 in "electrifying" style and that could change. YOu'd be back on SI's cover... struttin' proudly!

GC

TJ,

Works for me!

Dbrown,

There's certainly no reason not to discuss the MVP. It's a legitimate topic. I was reflecting mainly my surprise at the degree of emphasis placed on it.

CG,

The board may be too convivial for some. I know there are people to whom the very definition of a message board involves edginess, just as there are those to whom a message board means an opportunity for outright confrontation.

As I suggested above, the differentiation is mostly about style of presentation and much less about content. This is a board where content matters a lot, which is why many members have joined. Those whose posting mentality emphasizes an edgy or confrontational style to the detriment of content probably don't want this board. And vice versa.

It's all a matter of degree, which is why we have a moderator. And I've tried to make it clear where I stand on the balance between style and content. If I had felt otherwise, I'd probably have started a WWE Forum instead of a Celtics Forum.

Sam