Glen Davis = Big Mouth

Remember, Davis had a high opinion of himself when he was drafted. He gave
them a run for their money when it came to signing his rookie contract, eventually getting a different deal than most rookies end up with for less years.

Yes, he was valuable to this team in the first half of the season last year. I personally thought he was in the running for the most improved or sixth man award. Then, all of a sudden in April he just started playing like a guy who didn't know the plays. Everyone who reported on the team was of the belief that he had gained a considerable amount of weight, and any lift he
had whatsoever disappeared. It was disappointing, because I thought he
had turned the corner and was going to become indispensable to the Celticsl

All of this doesn't mean a thing as it appears that Davis has made up this mind that he wants to leave Boston. His interview last night on television certainly gave that impression. '

I can see both sides of this argument, Sam is right, we certainly shouldn't be putting all the blame on Davis's back for the Celtics misfortune in the playoffs. There were many other players who could share some of the blame also. However, I am not happy with Davis's attitude. He obviously
feels he is more talented than he has shown for a full season.

NYCelt wrote:This may be the most interesting debate of the post-season for the Celtics.

While dboss and Sam had to screw up the hate party by making perfect sense something mrkleen points out is the one thing that sticks with me.

How can you perform at the level Davis did through most of the season and then actually say that you weren't mentally ready for the playoffs?

I like kleen's opinion that they should try and sign him to a reasonable deal and then explore alternatives if not. He does have value to us; at least when he's mentally ready. I hope this is the approach the team takes. Otherwise we are at the front end of a rebuilding process so Glen may as well be part of it. *Marcus' approach to the issue is pretty interesting too.

Regards

NY,

I hate when Sam & dboss do that!

Pete

Mrkleen,

How do you know Glen Davis is "babied?"

There are plenty of other examples of players whose attitudes have improved with age. Plenty!

The basis for the Rondo remark is something called sarcasm.

My point about KG was that his refraining from getting on Glen Davis could easily suggest there were more pervasive problems that fans did not know about and KG didn't feel equipped to tackle. It's a fact that discontinuity was one of those problems that obvious to any discerning fan, and discontinuity probably affected Glen Davis' constantly shifting roles more than those of any other player.

I'm glad you mentioned chemistry in an abortive attempt to discredit my statement. To a great extent, any lack of chemistry was much more a function of the aforementioned discontinuity and, quite probably, other underlying problems which were not made public. There's every possibility that any malaise on Davis' part was the effect, not the cause, of lack of chemistry.

Sam

Outside,

Frankly, people can conjecture all they wish. It's certainly their right. But it's only conjecture, because most of it is grounded in unfounded beliefs rather than in proven fact.

For example, a lot of people think Glen overestimates his ability. It's very possible that a more accurate assessment of his mentality is that he'd like to be put in a position to succeed—whereas the role roulette to which he was subjected this season was almost the exact opposite of the role consistency he has coveted for quite a while.

I get a kick out of the fact that people frequently allude (with justification) to Glen's physical constraints but also are quick to criticize him when he fails to excel in roles that magnify the negative impact of those constraints. I also get a kick out of people who, many times in the past, have been thrilled with Glen's contributions but who apparently think it's inappropriate for him to consider those same contributions in any self-evaluation.

Did anyone notice how Rondo's play deteriorated for a significant period after The Trade? Did anyone notice that the play of the starters (who had been together four years) deteriorated for a significant period after The Trade? I don't believe the cause was the physical absence of Perk, with whom they hadn't played for most of the year anyway. I believe there were more pervasive non-physical factors involved, and we may never know what they were. And I believe they impacted Glen like most of the others—and probably more so because the arrival of a new center and a new power forward (at least part-time) affected Glen's role more than that of anyone else.

Even the comment you made about his getting plenty of playing time could use an infusion of context. How much of it was playing time in which he was placed in an ideal position to exceed versus playing time in which he was a default pawn in the role merry-go-round?

As I've often said, many fans think of players as robots or toy soldiers who should ignore distractions and discontinuity and should and constantly play at their optimum capabilities no matter what—just because they're professionals who are being paid big money. I've just alluded to just a few of many reasons that I believe conflict with this opinion. And a willingness to recognize the importance of the human condition is high among them.

Sam

How many players out there would actually admit that they were not mentally ready for the playoffs because he was thinking about what was in front of him?

“Every postseason, I’ve played tremendously good, to the point it was like, ‘Wow.’ And this summer it didn’t happen because I felt mentally, I wasn’t ready and prepared enough for what was in front of me . . . and it affected the way I played. That’s what I’ve been doing this offseason, just concentrating on that, making sure a postseason like that won’t ever happen to me ever again."

I think this displays a great deal of candor. I think the fact that he realizes that he did not perform as well as he should have appears to be a motivating factor for him.

I'm no pyschologist, but baby is a very sensitive person that quite frankly had a real tough life. Basically he was rejected as a child and I think some of that baggage is still with him. He wants everyone to love him and tell him how important he is. In that context it is easy to understand why him and Doc have had some ups and downs. Doc refuses to feed his ego and has walked a thin line trying to keep Baby motivated . At times perhaps Docs efforts at constructive criticism have rubbed him (baby) the wrong way.

Doc has defined a role for Baby but I think he more than any other returning rotation player had the most difficult time adjusting to roles that did in fact change from game to game.

Baby believes he can be a real productive offensive player. Doc wants him to be a defensive player that sets picks on offense and defers the offense to other team memeber.

The Celtics are a family but it is clear that Doc maintains a peaking order to some degree and Baby is outside of the inner circle (KG, PP, RA and RR) I think RR went through similar growing pains to secure his status inside the circle.

I think baby will do very well with the Celtics if he comes back next year. And unless some team decides to throw $8 million per year at him I think Boston would match a $6 million offer for his services. baby is still imature and self centered but I do believe that he wants to be a Celtics and he wants to win.

On the business side of the equation the Celtics need big baby. No he is not the answer to their big man needs but he is an important piece that can still grow into a consistent 6th or 7ht man and also prove his ability to start like he did the year KG was hurt.

In essence let's not lose our empathy for what he is going through.

dboss

Sam,

So you have no problem with his comments?

sam wrote:How do you know Glen Davis is "babied?"

I don’t know that he is babied. In fact, I think that KG and Doc and the like do the opposite….they practice tough love with him – as they clearly expect more from him as a player and a man.

But I don’t get my he gets to use the changes that happened during the season as an excuse – while Ray Allen, KG, Pierce etc are all expected to deal with it and continue to deliver. Davis needs to grow up and take responsibility for his own career already.

sam wrote:There are plenty of other examples of players whose attitudes have improved with age. Plenty!

And there are plenty of times over history that it has snowed in April in Boston….you know more than anyone however, that in the majority of instances – people don’t change. Period.

sam wrote:My point about KG was that his refraining from getting on Glen Davis could easily suggest there were more pervasive problems that fans did not know about and KG didn't feel equipped to tackle. It's a fact that discontinuity was one of those problems that obvious to any discerning fan, and discontinuity probably affected Glen Davis' constantly shifting roles more than those of any other player.

There would not have been any “discontinuity” if Davis didn’t play like crap and FORCE Doc to have to try out different combinations. If Baby was scoring 15 points per game all through April and May – he would have been closing games like he did at the beginning of the season – and based on match ups, would have seen very little change to his role.

sam wrote:I'm glad you mentioned chemistry in an abortive attempt to discredit my statement. To a great extent, any lack of chemistry was much more a function of the aforementioned discontinuity and, quite probably, other underlying problems which were not made public. There's every possibility that any malaise on Davis' part was the effect, not the cause, of lack of chemistry.

I agree with this to an extent, and acknowledge that the lack of chemistry showed in each and every player on the team – not just Davis. However, I stand by my above statement that a big reason that Chemistry was disrupted – was that Baby stopped playing well – so Doc had no choice but to reshuffle the deck to see what else he could come up with…and THAT was a big reason why team chemistry was constantly in flux.

Again, I am a Glen Davis fan. I like his life story. I like what he has done for the community. In fact, a friend of mine worked on the promotion of his childrens book – and by all accounts, Glen is a very nice guy. But forgive me if I don’t feel bad for him and his continued propensity to stick his foot in his mouth.

mrkleen09 wrote:

Again, I am a Glen Davis fan. I like his life story. I like what he has done for the community. In fact, a friend of mine worked on the promotion of his childrens book – and by all accounts, Glen is a very nice guy. But forgive me if I don’t feel bad for him and his continued propensity to stick his foot in his mouth.

MrKleen,

I think I get where you're coming from on this and I've got to agree and also give you credit for taking a balanced approach. If I get you right, and we're all speculating since none of know for sure, you think the decline in Davis' play is among the key factors that led to our mid to late season issues. However you seem to back your position with the idea that if he would just appreciate the opportunity he's been given, keep the lip zipped and play the darned game you would be good with that. It looks like you're saying appreciate your situation, man up and use the talent that got you here in the way the team needs it utilized and we're all fans; otherwise the exit sign is clearly marked.

If so, I'm sold.

I'm an outsider to the Boston area but I wonder if the conclusion to your last post (above) is telling on why it seems so many Bostonians are ready to let Glen walk. To me it seems Boston as a town, and therefore it's fans, have an accepting attitude of anyone who will put in the effort. At the same time it seems to me that all the typical Bostonian asks in return is not to be slapped with a bunch of BS.

Celtics fans (and I think this is likely true for The Sox, Bruins and Pats) seem to take in a player they once despised and make him their own as long as he puts in the effort and shows some appreciation. Rasheed Wallace has got to be a good example here. Could anyone in Boston stand the guy when he was a Piston? Yet all he says when signed is that he wants to come and help out to get to another championship, he makes a couple of fleeting nice references about Boston and New England, and everyone loves the guy. I don't see that happening so quickly in Philly, LA or NY.

So I wonder if part of the fan issue on being ambivalent toward Davis is that he appears to bite the hand that has fed him so far? I'm not saying it's entirely unique to the Boston area, but there is that strong sense of loyalty and a hard work ethic throughout New England.

I'm looking at more than just his game here. I'm wondering why so many in your region of the country appear so ready to let him walk and I think your statement about his repeated lapses in maturity might explain it.

It's either that or the fact that as Celtic fans with a sense of team history and values, we all wonder how far Red might have stuck the cigar in Davis' ear if he were the coach and got that "mentally unprepared" comment.

Anyway, I hope the team's approach is in the direction you're thinking.


Regards

Very well said NY - you nailed it.

NYCelt, nicely said.

Just one additional point regarding loyalty, that it's a two-way street. The fans give their loyalty without hesitation, even (as you pointed out) to a player who was once despised, and they're willing to overlook things if the player gives his all and is loyal to the team. But if the player shows disloyalty to the team, the backlash will be swift and severe, and I think that is the case here. Once a player is perceived to have broken that loyalty bond, then it's open season on all the weaknesses and peccadilloes that the fans were willing to overlook before.

I'm not saying that's necessarily fair, but I think that's how it is. Hell hath no fury like a sports fan scorned, particularly in Boston.

This has been an interesting discussion.

So the question remains. Is there anyone out there that feels the Celtics should let baby walk or should they be willing match any reasonable offer?

what is the salary range?

dboss

Mrkleen,

I guess we have different viewpoints on what creates discontinuity. Of course there can be many contributing factors, including the intractability of a given player. But the single most predictable cause of discontinuity (and "dischemistry," if you will) involves massive changes to the team. Glen Davis did not make massive changes to the 2011 Boston Celtics. He was arguably the most prominent pawn in the discontinuity caused chiefly by massive changes to the team. In a season when he had hoped for some stability in his role, things went in the opposite direction.

The thing I recall most about Glen Davis' assessment of his role for this past season was "Leader of the Bench." So, of the minutes reported by 82games.com (which lists the 20 five-man combinations with the most minutes for the Celtics this season), 80% of Glen's minutes were with the starters, where he was obviously more of a support player than he would have been with the bench. That's a lot of dissonance for a player who had good reason to assume he would be in a position to succeed as a bench leader.

And, when he did play with the bench, the period during which his play deteriorated coincided with a revolving door of teammates. Now that's discontinuity...and the cause (as distinct from the effect) of that discontinuity had virtually nothing to do with Glen Davis' attitude.

I understand your point, and you're certainly welcome to it. I guess we just differ in our perspectives on what makes professional basketball players tick. Which seems to cause us to look at different sides of the same coin. You tend to interpret Glen's public statements as being full of himself. I tend to interpret his statements as registering frustration at constantly missing out on being positioned to succeed. Yes, he wants to be a great player. What's wrong with that? Yes, he may be more sensitive than many players. It happens....something teams work with if the talent warrants.

Red Auerbach treated every player differently and in accordance with a wide variation in personality traits and motivational "hot buttons." Heinsohn and Loscutoff were his whipping boys. Sam lacked confidence. Cousy was widely viewed as a self-serving showboat, but Red found ways to leverage The Cooz' creativity while concurrently introducing more control to his game.

You consistently tend to interpret my examples literally (as with my sarcastic comment about Rondo). Please don't do that here. I'm not comparing these icons with Glen Davis in terms of ability. I'm just using them as examples of how players come with various forms of warts that can be dealt with if they're worth it. I happen to think that, with the Celtics' needs in mind, a package of ferocious offensive rebounding, persistent penetration, an improving outside threat, very good defensive footwork and a defensive force in the lane is worth it.

Sam

sam wrote:I happen to think that, with the Celtics' needs in mind, a package of ferocious offensive rebounding, persistent penetration, an improving outside threat, very good defensive footwork and a defensive force in the lane is worth it.

And if that is what Davis learns to bring every night - I totally agree. His performance in the playoffs seems to indicate otherwise.

Kleen,

He had one bad playoff (and a pretty mediocre latter part of the regular season too). He's had a number of very good playoffs and has been a savior in several injury-riddled regular season emergencies. Who is the real Glen Davis? The one who had a bad playoff or the one who has demonstrated great value numerous times?

Rondo (and I'm not comparing his ability with that of Glen Davis) had a mediocre late season and an on-an-off playoff too. I believe the problems for both of them related to the same source of disillusionment, which affected their performances (and maybe those of some other players to a lesser extent).

Davis and Rondo—both young and impressionable guys—began the season with a fairly good definition of their roles. They worked hard in honing their performances in those roles—in fact both leading the league in their respective specialties for quite a while. Then the bottom fell out for both of them with the advent of The Trade. Glen was now asked to forget the bench leader role and become a virtual starter. Rondo (IMO) felt that breaking up the gang of five devalued his efforts as the catalyst for that group and forced him to begin again (late in the season) being a catalyst for a revamped group—but without certain resources such as the holding of screens.

My theory in the preceding paragraph fits perfectly with Glen's admission that he wasn't psychologically ready for the playoffs. A lot of people lose a psychological edge when the bottom falls out from under them in one fashion or another. And Glen Davis is a certified human being.

I'm still in favor of The Trade, by the way. I think Danny and Doc had every right to think that the team would respond professionally (after perhaps a buffer period). It seems as though they counted on both Rondo and Glen to be less psychologically impacted as I believe they were.

And I can definitely see why fans (including yourself) could be down on Glen (why not Rondo?) as a result. I just happen to feel that opinion is a classic case of blaming the victim.

I expect (not a prediction, just an expectation) Glen Davis will probably be back to displaying his unique blend of skills for some team this coming season (if there is a season). Whether or not that team will be or should be or can conceivably be the Celtics definitely makes for interesting debate.

The main reason I've been posting about this subject (because frankly I've been lying low while focusing on Jeb) is that I believe many people are weighting Glen's attitude too heavily in comparison with Glen's skills. Attitudes do change, and no, in my life or my 50 years as an attitude researcher I specifically do NOT know that, "in the majority of cases, people don't change." Maybe not on their own. But, if given a reason to change, people will do it. That's exactly why Scott Brown got elected in Massachusetts in a dramatic come-from-behind turnaround in the last couple of weeks of the campaign.

I believe Doc Rivers and Danny probably have a good handle already on the Glen's potential value versus his attitudinal shortcomings (knowledge that neither of us can really claim for certain). I'm actually more concerned about Rondo's attitude than Glen's because the PG position demands much more precision, timing, and inspiration than the rock-em-sock-em life of a big man; and those attributes can get thrown off by psychological factors.

Take care,

Sam

Sam
Here are my impressions

a) I am not down on Rondo, because he was playing with an injury in the playoffs and STILL managed to raise his PPG and Rebounds per game. Nothing to be down on him about IMO.

b) Glen Davis was finishing games (with the starters) for a while (including much of the run through the playoffs LAST YEAR) - him playing more with the starters was not a dramatic change.

c) Scott Brown - wow, yeah. That is a whole different subject. Not even going to get into that here.

You clearly know more than I about psychology and the mental state of people – and it may be that being a professional athlete is so physically demanding, that you need a clear, calm mind to get the most out of your game – but again, sorry I don’t have much sympathy for Rondo or Davis.

They are young, rich, famous, and people pay them lots of money to play a game. Davis should shut his mouth, stop eating pancakes, get in the gym, and take advantage of his talent and the opportunity he has been given to play with so many hall of famers and under the best coach in the NBA. Or, he should pack his bags and enjoy sitting on the beach for the Timberwolves or the Rockets.

glen does not need to shut his mouth.

dboss

dboss wrote:glen does not need to shut his mouth.

dboss

Well, we will see how DA and Doc feel about that. Bet you are wrong.

Dboss, if you listened to alot of what Glen has said, he has admitted that he just lost his way the last part of the season and into the playoffs. I will say he blamed no one but himself publicly. However, we are not privy to what goes on during practice and games. Has he turned a deaf ear to the words of those much smarter than him?

It seems pretty obvious to me that he is the one who has mentioned right from the middle of the year to now that he will look for the "right" place
for him this year. That is his right as a free agent. He watched TA jump ship
last year without finishing his negotiations with the Celtics.

You know the saying "the grass is always greener". This seems to be the case here. It will be interesting to see the attention Baby draws from other teams, and his value to others.

I can't make up my mind whether I feel it would be smart to let him just go, or whether they should fight for him. However, that question may be moot, as it appears that Glen is ready to jump ship.

Rosalie

I understand all of this. But I think some folks are just overreacting to some of the things that Davis has said.

Rememeber last year when Rajon was a free agent and both camps started to probe one another? It first began with DA and doc saying a feel uncomplimentary things about Rondo. Then Rondo's agent came back strong on DA. Rondo was sullen but in the end they got it done.

I think the same thing will happen with Glen Davis.

It sems to me that he played pretty damn good through 3/4 of the season.
and I do not see any reason why he should not be able to contribute again.

Boston fans in all sports are wishy washy and will turn on a player in a NY minute. It is not good enough, as one of our beloved posters has suggested, that Boston fans just want a player to play hard and give their all. And so you hear things like. he should shut up, he should pack his bag, he's fat, etc. etc.

It's ok for DA to say no player is untouchable and he would trade anybody if it will improve the team. But if a player suggests that moving to another team my improve their situation we immediately take them to task. To me it is not fair.

DA and doc know Glen's value and they will more than likely match an offer provided it does not compromise their salary structure.

I personally do not have a problem with the Celtics trading Davis but some on this board seem to forget that the Celtics are not sitting there with a stable of bigs. As we found out last year you can never have enough bigs.

So Danny is not going to kick Davis to the curb because of a few misplaced comments and therefore fans should not mentally kick him to the curb either.

It may appear that Davis is ready to jump ship but I contend that he wants to stay here in Boston. But if your employer told you to go out and see if you can find another job without first making you an offer to stay what would you do? Go out and try to find another job I would think.

Dboss

Well, when you look at it that way, you are probably right. And I do agree with you that Davis played great during 2/3rd's of the season. What happened during that other 1/3rd I don't know. He even admitted that he lost focus and was of no help during the playoffs.

As far as matching, Davis is a free agent, same as TA. If someone throws some good money at him, I believe he will leave in a flash. Being the whipping boy for the last few years has not made for a happy player. However, by playing along side Garnett, and in some cases replacing him, he has learned so much, that to leave would be a big mistake.

And I do agree with you, money is the name of the game. Somehow I feel he is placing a much higher value on himself than teams will be willing. In my honest opinion, he couldn't even carry Russell's shoes.

rosalie

take a look at the free agent F/C out there. not a lot of options. this could drive the price up.

I think the Celtics will be competing against MLE money and I think he is worth that.

Celtics are not in a strong bargaining position due to supply and demand.

also last year there were too many changes and that is what messed up the Chemistry. do the celtics want to bring in 2 new bigs plus their rookie?

I made a list of all the free agents and this may be the worst group I have ever seen.

I am going to post the list and include last year's salary. Davis will be top 3 big available.

dboss

sam wrote:Outside,

Frankly, people can conjecture all they wish. It's certainly their right. But it's only conjecture, because most of it is grounded in unfounded beliefs rather than in proven fact.

For example, a lot of people think Glen overestimates his ability. It's very possible that a more accurate assessment of his mentality is that he'd like to be put in a position to succeed—whereas the role roulette to which he was subjected this season was almost the exact opposite of the role consistency he has coveted for quite a while.

I get a kick out of the fact that people frequently allude (with justification) to Glen's physical constraints but also are quick to criticize him when he fails to excel in roles that magnify the negative impact of those constraints. I also get a kick out of people who, many times in the past, have been thrilled with Glen's contributions but who apparently think it's inappropriate for him to consider those same contributions in any self-evaluation.

Did anyone notice how Rondo's play deteriorated for a significant period after The Trade? Did anyone notice that the play of the starters (who had been together four years) deteriorated for a significant period after The Trade? I don't believe the cause was the physical absence of Perk, with whom they hadn't played for most of the year anyway. I believe there were more pervasive non-physical factors involved, and we may never know what they were. And I believe they impacted Glen like most of the others—and probably more so because the arrival of a new center and a new power forward (at least part-time) affected Glen's role more than that of anyone else.

Even the comment you made about his getting plenty of playing time could use an infusion of context. How much of it was playing time in which he was placed in an ideal position to exceed versus playing time in which he was a default pawn in the role merry-go-round?

As I've often said, many fans think of players as robots or toy soldiers who should ignore distractions and discontinuity and should and constantly play at their optimum capabilities no matter what—just because they're professionals who are being paid big money. I've just alluded to just a few of many reasons that I believe conflict with this opinion. And a willingness to recognize the importance of the human condition is high among them.

Sam

Sam I noticed that too that after the trade other than a 5 game winning streak overall the team played alot worse. Perk always had a fighting spirit that was good for the team. Whenever a kid walks by into a house they always stop and take a second or two before entering if they see a dog, thats essentially what we lost without Perk. Doc admitted after the playoffs that the Perk trade did effect team chemistry and given the choice now he wished they hadn't done that trade. Seeing how close alot of those games vs Heat were I really think we coulda beat/handled Miami without the trade fairly easily and a healthy Rondo and if Baby had played his best.

dboss-you are right about the free agency list, as a matter of fact, ESPN has Davis at the top of the list. The big problem here is he is unrestricted, and could walk away just like TA. All this talk about sign and trades could prove to be just that, talk.

After reading the Boston Globe's report on the player/owner meetings this week, it is a bit upsetting thinking that this could really drag the beginning ofthe season into late December/early. At that point, even though they
may be healthybut they will be that much older. I pray that this doesn't take place

Rosalie

with the labor issues nothing is a sure thing.

da has a lot of work to do. I have confidence that he will find a way to put together a solid roster.

dboss

Judging from what I am reading in the Boston papers, ESPN, and other sites, Danny hit a home run drafting this kid Johnson. Seems alot of people are very impressed with him. And, the other kid is good size also.

This is going to be a long summer if they can't make any moves. As of Friday, July 1, Rondo won't be able to be working out with Bryan Doo at the Waltham facility. That is too bad, as he has been working his butt off here to get back into good shape.

For anyone who pays attention, the ESPY's are being voted on now and Ray is up for an award for breaking Reggie's record, so go to that site and vote~