38? and 13.7.. the making of a celtics legend?

On another board i just posted some comments regarding possible thoughts some Rondo critics might have after years of claiming Rondo game was a direct reflection of simply a good player getting to play with 3 HOFers like Peirce, KG and that other guy.

However, now that other guy is gone, and of course KG and Peirce are, as they have been for the past 3 or 4 yrs, are standing on their very last leg, highly unlikely to make it the rest of the year without retiring (yadda yadda yadda) Rondo appears to not be suffering as simply a good player would when he looses 1/3 of his benifactors and the other two are already half out to pasture.

this yr vs his 7 yr carrer:
1st in fg%
1st in 3 pt fg%
4th in ft%

1st in assists
2nd in ppg
tie for 2nd in stls
tie for 2nd best in rebounds


Currently Rondo is 115th on the NBA's all time assist leader list with 3701 assists, a mere two assists tonight vs the Nets puts him in 113th place and 15 dimes could give him 112th place ahead of Paul Presely. 10 assists of course pushes him ahead of Stockten in the double digit streak buisness and 7 behind Magic Johnson.

Also with an average of 13.7 assists per game Rondo is on track to pass a number of retired players (including Russel) and a number of active players including fellow Celtic Peirce, former teamate Ray Allen as well as joe Johnson, dwayne wade, tracy Mcgrady, Vince Carter and grant Hill.

Is it safe to say now that Rondo is, as certian members on this board have long suggested that Rondo is at least somewhat an above average player?

some interesting other things about Rondo

At 26 and with 450 NBA games under his belt, Rondo he is already 4th all time on the Celtics list in steals, 8th in turnovers, 6th in assists

Rondo is currently tied at #201 on the NBA's all time steals list, but with an average of 1.9 so far this season, would jump up to 997 stls this yr, tieing him with Paul Presely for 144th place- with only 6 active players between him and 144th place as well.

Of course, one glaring hole in the Career of Rondo in comparision to other Celtics is the small number of NBA titles. Just that 1...

Of course Rondo is an all star leval player, but how soon can Rondo begin to be spoken of in terms of being a Celtics Legend? Is he there already? Paul really didnt reach that platua untill he got a title.. KG likely became a C's legend that same year (its odd, it almost feels like he's always been a Celtic)- even though it was his first year as a Celtic...

but what about Rondo,? he';s got title cred's, all star games under his belt, and his passing game is currently on a stockton'ish leval of play.. he's climbing the NBA and Celtics record books.. when ought he receive the status of Celtics legend?

I was one of the first to sing Rondo's praises during his 1st summer league. I was the first to say I wouldn't trade him straight up for any other pg in the league. I don't think he's a Celtic legend at this point. He would be remembered if he stopped playing right now, but wouldn't be a legend. IMO. He needs a few more seasons, another ring or two or six, a league and finals MVP, (which he could get this season), then he will be a legend. He is going to set many records during his career, who knows, he may play until he replaces Doc. (you heard it here first

mul

I don't think he has the temperment to be a coach. Just seems a bit too moody, perhaps I will be wrong but just don't see it now.

As for legends.........................

deal with that in another 10-12 years.

beat

Matty, nice post.

Legends seem to defy exact descriptions. It seems as though, at some point, almost by acclimation, people are so collectively overwhelmed by a player's complete body of work that he's talked about in legendary terms.

He's had a herky jerky history. Praise his assists, bemoan his shooting. Acclaim him as a leader, wonder about his pouting. Marvel at incredible performances, wonder why he can't be more consistent. Defensive point guard of the year one season, letting guys get past him another season.

I think he gets "legend points" for being one-of-a-kind in terms of combining skills and athleticism. In my opinion, he's doing a better job of running the team this year than in earlier years. (Collecting assists is not necessarily being a total catalyst.) Frankly, I believe he has struggled with the niceties of the halfcourt game throughout his pro career. When the team's struggling, I'd like to see him be less likely to take over the offense and more likely to galvanize the entire team to rise to the occasion. Move them around, move around himself to open up better passing lanes, reward them for effort, perhaps trade some of the "French pastry" for more passes in their wheel houses, etc.

That's what I'm going to be looking at as time passes. And it could be that consistency will be the most pivotal factor in whether he's considered a legend or a prima donna or something in-between. If, from this point forward, he could put together six to eight years as a a consistently outstanding floor general, he'd probably get my vote as a legend, and it probably wouldn't even take that much for him to get his number retired.

There's one area in which PGs of today should be cut some slack. Just as players of the past should be given some statistical latitude because of the primitive nature of many of the rules and playing conditions, point guards of the present should be given some "continuity latitude" because they have to deal with often-wholesale teammate changes as the years wear on.

Sam

Matty,
RR is an elite PG right now.
As for "legend" - agree with Beat.

AK

Sam i agree that his preformances are just all over the board.

But i also think a lot about his total body of work as you mentioned, supposing Rondo fullfills the rest of his contract, based on the first 5 yrs of his career (yr 6 of course was shortened by the lockout) he's averaging 77 games a season. figgure in this yrs games at 13.7 assists per game and then, just to make things interesting say the next 2 seasons left on his contract he only gets his career average of 8.2 assists per game-

your still looking at a 29 yr old player only hundreds of assists behind Cooz on the Celtics list and quite possibly in the NBA all time top 30 leaders. figgure steals along the same lines and he's in the top 60-70 all time- and firmly number 3 among Celtics.. and again, only 29.

I dont think he is or will be of Russel or Bird status. Nor will he pile on handfulls of rings like Cooz, Sam Jones ect..

I do think though, that as Mulcogi says, "he's going to set many records" not just as a Celtic but as an NBA player to boot.

But back to another point you made Sam, how well he does in the next 6-8 yrs will say a lot. Honestly i expect he could play for a lot longer barring injuries, even another 10 yrs.. depending on how much of that (preferably all as a Celtic ) is played wearing green I think will determine wether his jersey is hung from the rafters- I dont think he;s far from being worthy of that now- another title would likely seal that deal..

I really do think that Rondo has it within him to make it to springfeild and then, the ceiling (or rafters) is the limit. Its just a matter of time.

Time.........

Matty that is the key word to me

Was Russell a real "legend" when he was still playing? Or did it ( the legend) sort of grow when he no longer was there to actually see and you then realized what he had done??

Of course Bird had that nickname Larry Legend...while he was still playing.

All in all to me legend status can only occur after said player is no longer playing and we can review the entire body of work.

beat

Unless you're talking about a player on the level of Bill Russell or Larry Bird, I agree that it's way, way too early to even be discussing "legend" status. That doesn't mean you can't enjoy and appreciate his play.

this thread gave us bad mojo tonight.. i'm truely sorry.

Beat, you bring up a good point about are they a legend when they are playing. If you think about it like that I can only think of 3 players in the league right now that I would call a legend, Lebron, Durantula, and bad as I hate to say it Kobe. Look at a player, if there is a question, more than likely they are not a legend.

Beat, Russell was a renowned legend after the first dozen times he frustrated Wilt Chamberlain. It was Wilt, more than any other single factor, that expedited Russ' rise to legendary status.

Sam

Sam

When I think of the term legend just doesn't seem to fall or fit on any active player in any sport. Something legendary is passed on and embelished and even takes a bit of a life of it's own and to me that just can't happen till a player has played his last game. And then some time after that perhaps, Sort of like fine wine.....better with age.

Maybe I'm just hung up on the word Legend.

Aside from sports world look at the legendary books that have been written..... were they legendary when they were only half done? Or great paintings for that matter. Were the authors and artists considered legendary while they still wrote and painted? Music same way to a lessor degree as careers go on forever. The Rolling Stones are legendary and also old as crap. Well older than me anyway.

But in the world of sport just my opinion that a "real" legend can only happen after one has left the game and the stories and memories can age and grow. Wilt's 100 is legendary now but was it really as much so while Wilt was still playing? The actual event was for sure.......but doesn't it take on a greater significance since Wilt quit playing and even greater in his passing.



just some rambling thoughts is all.


beat

Beat, did the Boston Garden become legendary only after it was demolished? How about Fenway Park? Is it not yet legendary?

I do agree that a player's legendary status can grow or wane (Clemens) after retirement. And it's true that becoming a legend is almost a gradual process. Nothing is non-legendary one minute and legendary the next minute. (Of course, one might have had trouble selling that to Jim Thorpe when the King of Sweden said, "You, sir, are the greatest athlete in the world."

But I think Joe DiMaggio, Ted Williams, Willie Mays, and Jackie Robinson were considered legendary well before they retired. And the very consistency of Russell's feats (they had to break his ankle to keep him from winning championships in every one of his first 10 years in the league) easily made him legendary by the early 60s. But maybe that's just how the people I know felt, and the whole thing's subjective.

Matty,

A little more on Cousy and Rondo. From the outset of his pro career, Cousy was THE catalyst for the Celtics. The year before he arrived, they averaged 79.7 PPG. In his first year, their PPG jumped to 85.2. Four years later, during the two years BEFORE Bill Russell arrived, they averaged 101.5 and 106.8 PPG. In fact, the PPG dropped slightly (to 105.5 in Russ's first year.

There can be no question that the catalyst named Bob Cousy galvanized the entire team during a period before the Russell years. He, Red, MacAuely and Sharman had them running and ready for Championship competition when Russ came along to complete the job by adding the rebounding and defense dimensions.

Rondo, on the other hand, pretty much began his pro career as a role player who rode along on the coattails of the Three Amigos the first championship year. And, each year since, he has vacillated between monster games and disappearing acts as the Celtics offense (unlike the defense) has alternately sparkled and struggled.

Now we're coming to the point where this is definitely his team, just as it was Cousy team in Cooz' rookie year. It will be interesting to see how he can combine with a couple (hopefully more than a couple) of very good teammates to forge anything approaching the kind of offensive acceleration The Cooz orchestrated.

Sam

Sam, im at a disadvantage when it comes to the legends of Celtics past, I got a notion i missed out on something even more special that what i even suspect i did..

I really think i'd have loved to see Cooz play more than the bits and peices ive been exposed to thus far.

When It comes to the stats, I think Rondo is going to surpass Cooz in a lot of ways.. soomethings dont show up in boxscores though and there i'm guessing is why even though I think Rondo will likely end up being a Celtics Legend..

It'l be more likely in the same breaths as DJ, McHale, Parish, Peirce.. Names like Russel, Bird, Cousy and Auerbach each require a breath of their own to be spoken in.

While it is fun to compare players from different eras, it really isn't fair. Rondo may be the closest we've seen to Cousy but he isn't The Cooz. What is important to me is that Rondo improves every year. I expect that to continue for several more years before he becomes a truly accomplished player in his prime. If only he read this forum, he would clearly know what he has to do to meet our expectations. I don't know where else he could go to learn what will make him a truly great player and HOFer. Everyone here has the knowledge and the willingness to contribute that, if only a kernel, would improve his game. Otherwise, he should listen to Tommy.

I hate comparisons. Each era was relevant to the times. Russell, Cowens, Parish, Garnett, et al, were the mainstays for each era. I cannot, in all respect, compare anyone to Russell. Nor, can I not compare Rondo to Cousy. They are men of their own times. I am ready to continue to watch Rondo grow and be able to say that I have seen some of the greatest basketball in my lifetime, dating myself by saying that I have lived thru all eras!

Rosalie

beat wrote:Sam

When I think of the term legend just doesn't seem to fall or fit on any active player in any sport. Something legendary is passed on and embelished and even takes a bit of a life of it's own and to me that just can't happen till a player has played his last game. And then some time after that perhaps, Sort of like fine wine.....better with age.

Maybe I'm just hung up on the word Legend.

Aside from sports world look at the legendary books that have been written..... were they legendary when they were only half done? Or great paintings for that matter. Were the authors and artists considered legendary while they still wrote and painted? Music same way to a lessor degree as careers go on forever. The Rolling Stones are legendary and also old as crap. Well older than me anyway.

But in the world of sport just my opinion that a "real" legend can only happen after one has left the game and the stories and memories can age and grow. Wilt's 100 is legendary now but was it really as much so while Wilt was still playing? The actual event was for sure.......but doesn't it take on a greater significance since Wilt quit playing and even greater in his passing.



just some rambling thoughts is all.


beat

beat,

Couldn't help but comment on this. One of the more cogent arguments I've seen here in quite some time.

I think at least when it involves the playing career of an athlete, where their accomplishments are measured in total, when the clock is up, and against the totals of those that came before, "legend" applies best when they're done.

In the case of the Stones, they may be the exception that proves the rule; although he can (reportedly) still stand, Keith Richards appears to have been dead for some time now.

Regards

NYCelt wrote:

beat wrote:Sam

When I think of the term legend just doesn't seem to fall or fit on any active player in any sport. Something legendary is passed on and embelished and even takes a bit of a life of it's own and to me that just can't happen till a player has played his last game. And then some time after that perhaps, Sort of like fine wine.....better with age.

Maybe I'm just hung up on the word Legend.

Aside from sports world look at the legendary books that have been written..... were they legendary when they were only half done? Or great paintings for that matter. Were the authors and artists considered legendary while they still wrote and painted? Music same way to a lessor degree as careers go on forever. The Rolling Stones are legendary and also old as crap. Well older than me anyway.

But in the world of sport just my opinion that a "real" legend can only happen after one has left the game and the stories and memories can age and grow. Wilt's 100 is legendary now but was it really as much so while Wilt was still playing? The actual event was for sure.......but doesn't it take on a greater significance since Wilt quit playing and even greater in his passing.



just some rambling thoughts is all.


beat

beat,

Couldn't help but comment on this. One of the more cogent arguments I've seen here in quite some time.

I think at least when it involves the playing career of an athlete, where their accomplishments are measured in total, when the clock is up, and against the totals of those that came before, "legend" applies best when they're done.

In the case of the Stones, they may be the exception that proves the rule; although he can (reportedly) still stand, Keith Richards appears to have been dead for some time now.

Regards

Not if you listen to him play rhythm guitar. Even today. And that's all that matters to Keith. He could give a shit what he looks like. And he's always been one the the wittiest, cut to the chase and peel away the BS mf'ers of anyone who's ever been interviewed. I know, because I interviewed him for an hour and a half one time. To this day, he's just as sharp to talk to. Read his autobiography, "Life," which came out a year or two ago. It's amazing. He'll be rockin' til he's 90. Maybe longer.

i've been thinking of how we use the word "legend"

Bob Dylon and Neil Young are both legendary musicians, but both been at it a lot longer than any NBA player..

IN pro Wrestling Ric Flair has been termed "legendary" since the late 90's- ditto for Tery Funk- heck Funk was a legend back when he put flair through that table 20 years ago, and might have wrestled this weekend.

John Elway was a legend in Denver while still playing..

as a coach, Woody Hayes was a legend at Ohio State long before he retired

John Wooden... well he's John Freak'n Wooden.. nuff said.

In the non Celtic NBA, West, Chamberlin, Jordan were all considered Legends well before they retired. Celtics Russel, Bird and the Cooz, Hondo I think could all be considered NBA and Celtic Legends before they retired.

For some guys, their Celtics legacy extends beyond their time wearing a C's jersey.. Cooz, K.C. Jones, Tommy H quickly come to mind.. and 25 years from now, possibly some youngster is gonna be wachting a Celtics game listening to the local announcing crew, in paticuler a "Celtics legend" known merely as "Scal" and will be convinced the guy singlehandedly won the 2008 NBA title for Boston..

Its just my opionion, that guys can reach legendary status well before their time is up in the NBA.. but having an entire body of work to examine sure does help put things into perpective.

P.S. NYCeLT.. back on april 12,th 1992 ( i recall this distintly because it was the day i could at last legally buy porn, smokes, vote and join the army) a freind well described Keith Richards to me.. "the only reason keith Richards is still in the stones man, is to make Mick Jagger look alive"

its funny to imagine that was 20 years and change though... holy crap..

oh, and yeah, the stones are legends too!