Rondo for MVP

Earlier this season I saw a thread on some other blog about Rondo for MVP, I don't think so, right now I'd take Tony Parker, Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook over him in a second, by next year Kyrie Irving may be a better player than Rondo if he isn't already right now. All these points can score and carry a team with their scoring, we keep on saying how Rondos improved his jumper, but his offense is still light years behind Tony Parker....and his defense has regressed to the point hes a liability.

Tonight Parker kept on attacking and attacking, taking the ball strong over and over right through our defense, Rondo does a fast nifty scoring move, then disappears for too many stretches right at crucial parts of the game when no one else seems to be able to get it going. He has it in him, but his passing is only gonna get us so far and him leading the league in assists has shockingly little impact on the outcome of games. This is like Magic in 88, Kareem couldn't keep up his scoring pace, just like Duncan and KG can't right now either and Magic stepped up carrying them with his passing and scoring. For this team to get back on a winning track Rondo has to carry much more of the scoring load, can he score more than just a few flashes? hes got to start carrying us more ala Parker whos in the middle of everything.

Cow,

Interesting point you're making; happens to run in line with the opinion of Magic Johnson...I hear he knows a thing or two about basketball. Johnson has been repeatedly bringing up the point that the current Celtics roster only gets anywhere this spring if Rondo is scoring 20-25 points a game and the high number of assists go away in favor of him scoring.

Chris Webber has been throwing in that we need to add a power forward to get anywhere come playoff time.

You been talking to these guys? They sure sound like you (and you just might be proven correct).

Regards

Hey NY Celt

Good to see you, eating coffee ice cream, yum. I actually saw Magic say it first and with the age of Pierce and KG, totally agree with the Legend. Since hes not defending with the authority of a few years ago, he might as well start carrying more of the scoring load, team needs it. I remember a game I was at in the Meadowlands years ago vs Nets. Rondos defense was so ape shit Kidd couldn't even bring the ball up without a screen....I was amazed at his tenacity and speed that he defended with. Is it a coincidence our defense has fallen as a team as his defense has also fallen? I don't know?

On a big man, I would pursue either Derrick Favors or Kantor on the Jazz, Favors is more athletic and Kantor is more like a moose in the post that can bang and score. Jazz can't keep both, I'd take either, both are young with upside, just coming into their own. Right now Jazz are starting Randy Foye at 2, they could use some help there, maybe they would take Lee and Bass in a package?

cow

Cow,

Coffee ice cream sounds great...just back from a neighbor's Christmas party...no ice cream but quite the spread. Nice thing about parties two houses away is you can drink without worry about a DWI!

I wonder about a possible deal involving Lee and Bass or Sullinger. Lee becomes expendable if Bradley comes back and Bass and Sullinger are in reality looking like two of the same item.

Regards

NYCelt

I still like Sully, hes got some Kevin Love in him, Love wasn't Kevin Love his rookie year, it took him a few years to get there. Sully can board, he might develop some Adrian Dantley too, but hes not a 5 and never will be, we need a BIG big, size to play 4 or 5, which Sully doesn't have, but needs to play next to.

Bottomline KG is not gonna be here forever, he needs help, I like Jeff Green, we've got to use him more, get him more involved, but the team has never really recovered from the Perk trade, we lost alot of our identity, we used to just outwork and outphysical teams down low....those days are over. If we can land that player and Fab Melo can show/develop anything would be a step in right direction.

cow

Hi,
The only player, based on games played so far, I'd nominate for MVP is KG.
At this point he is Most Valuable Player for Celtics.
Unfortunately, the judgement for that award is skewed, IMO. But it's a topic for another thread.

AK

I blame Rondo's nonchallant attitude on Wiggles Walker. When Paul Pierce came into the league, he was like a sponge and Wiggles became his mentor. It was the polar opposite of KG's approach. If Wiggles got the ball on offense he always took the shot, rarely tried a layup. In college he was an excellent passer; it was one of the things you kept waiting to see. Not in the pros: why work hard when you can settle for a three? On defense, Wiggles rested, tried for the occasional steal, hung out near midcourt waiting to break away for a highlight layup. Did he ever block out? He could have established rebound position easily if he'd just wiggled his way in.

There was also a certain devil-may-care, me-first attitude.

Paul picked up a lot of bad habits from Antoine over those years of losing games and hope. He was too good a ball player to become a Walker; he wanted too much to win. Antoine played for money and self-pride and usually tried his hardest only at the end of games, so he wouldn't appear to be letting down his teammates.

When Doc arrived, he taught Paul the difference between hustle and false hustle. He and Paul had a rocky start to their relationship, with Doc actually benching Paul once, if memory serves right.

Now Paul has another burgeoning Walker-esque, take-it-easy-don't wear yourself-out, buddy in Rondo. Paul's come too far to slide very far, but Paul keeps slipping back to his old ways of coasting, taking the occasional play off. He figures he can still turn it on when he feels like it.

Rajon is in danger of turning into a Walker. It's a shame because he had the potential to be a Cousy. The attitude that you can take a play or two and coast, then turn it on at the end and win, that becomes the attitude that you can take a game or two and take it easy.

Has anyone noticed how close Rajon and Paul have become? It's a contagious disease and it's called terminal laziness.

This team needs a doctor.

Cow and NYCelt,

Nice to see you guys enjoying the holiday season. Probably more than the Celtics are enjoying it.

I'm having difficulty envisioning Rondo suddenly becoming a consistent 20 ppg scorer. His strength is as a pass-first PG. The best use of any player is to leverage his strengths and not to try to transform him into something he's inherently not comfortable with. (The one exception I'd make in my own statement would be that sometimes Rondo over-passes to a predictable degree, and I'd like him to be more "selfish" at those times.)

There are other players on this team who could average more points than they are (Terry, Lee, Green, Sully and Bass to name a few). They're all hampered by not having played with Rondo last year. (Among other things, one can see their lack of preparedness for some of Rondo's passes.) If three or four of them could average just 2-3 more ppg, it would be at least as good as Rondo suddenly becoming a 20 ppg scorer—probably at the expense of his playmaking expertise. And the best way for each of them to average 2-3 more ppg arguably involves some form of collaboration with Rondo.

It's easy for Magic to suggest that Rondo should suddenly morph into an elite scorer. It was easy for Magic to become whatever his team needed because he grew up as a tall small forward—a position that arguably possesses the most diverse scoring skills on a typical team. Rondo's offensive repertoire is basically limited to penetration from either side and his increasingly consistent jumper from an elbow (which I think becomes less accurate as a game progresses). He has even hit a few threes this season and appears to be developing a bit more confidence in that shot, at least for bailout purposes. Teams are already becoming more ready for his transition moves, so I can't see more of them elevating his ppg. And his jumper is very serviceable but not really a consistent weapon, and I believe it becomes less effective as each game wears on.

Just remember this. Rondo's pass-first psyche as a basketball player was developed when practically all he had going for him offensively were his ball distribution skills and some rebounding ability. Unlike Magic, that's Rondo's root mentality; and, unless they trade him, the Celtics are most probably going to have to accommodate that orientation on Rondo's part. The Cooz is 84, and I don't see any other combination floor general/high scorer on the horizon.

Sam

Spike,

Potential to be another Cousy, huh? Rondo had better find some elixer to match this:

Age...Assists....PPG RPG

26 Led league 21.2 6.0
27 Led league 18.8 6.8
28 Led league 20.6 4.8 Won championship
29 Led league 18.0 5.0
30 Led league 20.0 5.5 Won championship
31 Led league 19.4 4.7 Won championship
32 .....7.7...... 18.1 4.4 Won championship
33 .....7.8...... 15.7 3.5 Won championship
34......6.8...... 13.2 2.5 Won championship

Sam

Sam

You might be right that he doesn't have it in him, Spike makes a good point about coasting, on defense he is coasting way too much. In that heroic 40 plus point playoff game vs Heat, Rondo was in a zone, if he is the superstar and face of the franchise and its his team, then he has to do whatever it takes to elevate his game and others, why not try to reach that zone, in losses where he only takes 6-7 shots and doesn't even score double figures.....thats not gonna cut it. We need more.

If we can't land an all star big man in a few years or Jeff Green can't develop into a borderline all star, then going forward just Rondos passing and defensive deficiencies will NOT be able to carry us, so if thats the case and he can't develop a scorers mentality/ability, then he should be trade bait to get some young stud at any position IMHO.

cow

sam wrote:Spike,

Potential to be another Cousy, huh? Rondo had better find some elixer to match this:

Age...Assists....PPG RPG

26 Led league 21.2 6.0
27 Led league 18.8 6.8
28 Led league 20.6 4.8 Won championship
29 Led league 18.0 5.0
30 Led league 20.0 5.5 Won championship
31 Led league 19.4 4.7 Won championship
32 .....7.7...... 18.1 4.4 Won championship
33 .....7.8...... 15.7 3.5 Won championship
34......6.8...... 13.2 2.5 Won championship

Sam

its pretty obvious Rondo couldn't carry Cousys jockstrap

At one time I envisioned Rondo as a combination of Cousy and K.C., an offensive playmaker and a defensive playbreaker. That's in the rear view mirror now. That may demonstrate one of Rondo's biggest problems on the court these days: he doesn't have an identity. It used to be defense; now he's trying to make it offense.

Since lack of identity is also the team's biggest problem these days, it would be exceedingly serendipitous if they all figured it out together. Defense doesn't require great skill, just hard work and integrity. You have to back up your teammates on every play, by working as hard as they do, or else they're going to know. That's what's missing right now, and what's lurking in the new guys' minds. There's too little hustle and too much false hustle. Who on this team dives for loose balls anymore? Floor burns used to be part of the uniform. It's a failure of leadership, particularly the captain and self-appointed captain/coach/point guard.

Doc announced, not too long ago, that Rondo hasn't been playing that Avery Bradley style of defense 'and we don't know if we want him to.' It was right around the time he said that offensive rebounds were the least of his problems. I understand that Rondo is Doc's horse and he's going to give him the bit. Let's hope he knows what he's doing.

My biggest complaint with Rondo is that he walks the ball up the court. In Kentucky, he complained that his coach wouldn't let him run. By now, it's clear that Doc's tired of yelling at him to run. Did someone say 'Toine. Also, I don't buy this myth that the team falls apart every time Rondo rests. He was out for two games and they didn't look any worse than when he was in there. It's just the opposite: they should be learning to play without him. Even if it hurts, because they're losing with him. If anything, they ran better without him. There was more hustle.

Spike and Cow,

I've been on vacation and have seen just a little bit of some games and all of others. So maybe the portions I watched were not representative. But it has seemed to me that they're running pretty much at every opportunity. The problem is that running's only a part of the equation. Players don't seem to know what to do with themselves once they're in the forecourt: Hang on the perimeter? Sprint to a corner to hope for a pass or to space the floor in an inevitable segue to halfcourt offense? Go down the lane? Pinch in toward the basket from the sides? Set a pick? I see very little consistency in their fast breaking roles.

Once in a while, they get it right (as witness the slick Rondo pass to Pierce for a two-step slam last night). But, as often as not, their transition offense seems at least as confused as the opponent's transition defense is.

A couple of weeks ago, Doc made a point of mentioning that he went right down the roster, telling guys what their roles were. That was a good start, but it seems to me he's still assuming that it's relatively easy for veterans to tune in to their roles in the Celtics system. To some extent, I see improvement on defense (nice comment from Spike about effort meaning so much on defense), and they're learning and executing better in the "lunge and recover" defensive system. However, it does seem imperative that the Celts acquire another stopper to guard the bucket.

On offense, they lack both a bona fide slasher and a bona fide low post threat (which, by the way, Perk never really was). They need to have at least one of these two capabilities to provide the offensive versatility a contender needs.

Heinsohn suggested last night that Lee was the closest thing they have to a slasher. Even if he were more consistent in that role, I wouldn't be surprised to see Lee traded. I had hoped Jeff Green might adopt the slashing role, but it seems like just an occasional whim on his part. Maybe, as he proves his durability to himself, he'll embrace the slashing role more frequently. I'm afraid to admit that Paul Pierce really can no longer slash with any authoritative consistency. He's doubled half the time as it is; and, at any sign of him driving, opponents just pack the lane and force more PP turnovers.

I've gradually come to the conclusion that the Celtics best bet to fill both their most pressing offensive and defensive needs would be to get a guy like Varejao. I believe that, in the absence of a reliable slasher on the team, Varejao's low post game (especially in terms of offensive rebounding) and ability to protect his own basket on the defensive end could fill a double need for the Celtics.

As for Rondo, I think there's a serious question of whether he really has the mentality (or even the capability to adopt the mentality) to be a premier floor general. There are aspects of his game that seem very rash and whimsical rather than very cerebral. "Nobody's running with me; screw them, I won't run either." "Now I'm pissed, so I think I'll take over the offense." "I have to save myself to play loads of minutes, so I'll relax on defense." He may not really be thinking such thoughts, but it certainly looks as though he is. He'd be much better off if he'd forget all that crap and just constantly ask himself in any given circumstance and with as much anticipation as possible, "What's the best way to get the ball in the hole?"

The old Celtics' signal to start the weave was a spiral of the upraised hand at the wrist. Immediately, this thing of beauty unfolded, with players in constantly interchangeable rotations and exchanging short, impossible to intercept passes. It almost invariably freed someone for an open shot.

I realize the weave is long ago outdated, although it's never been proven to me that it couldn't still work. But I certainly wish this team had access to whatever the modern equivalent might be, because far too often, everybody's just standing around in the halfcourt while the opposition's offensive is featuring all sorts of movement without the ball.

Perhaps if Rondo wore a rubber glove and asked his teammates on the floor to bend over since they're not doing anything else, we might see more action out there.

Sam

I like and respect the old days as much as anyone, but there are times that this board feels a lot like a group of guys living in the past.

Suggesting that Rondo leading the league in assists does not have a positive effect on the team is just ridiculous. He is not only setting the table for his teammates all night long - but is the floor general the RARELY turns the ball over. The problems with the Celtics this season have very little to do with Rondo, so have no ideas where this thread even comes from.

Comparing him to all time greats from different eras - I dont get it. Bob Cousy was a HOF player who was one of the 5 best Celtics of all time. If Rondo is 75% of Cousy, he will be a great player for years to come. Magic Johnson was a freak of nature.....and again, one of the best ever.

Do you think Magic could cover Cousy? No way he could keep up. Do you think Cousy could handle Magic on the post? No Way. Different players, different eras. Very little in common.

I am very happy to have Rondo as a starting PG and a corner piece of this franchise....I think DA and Doc feel the same way. Sorry some of you dont agree.

kleen

Some good points, my youngest son Johnny is the biggest Rondo fan and plays PG on a traveling team, I have been the biggest Rondo fan myself, however I see slippage in his game. He used to not have great stats, but he played such great defense with that freakish speed and those long arms. Now he routinely can't stay in front of his man and I never thought I'd see the day when Rondo and turnstile would be in the same sentence. He used to have so many intangibles, now he has better stats, but if you watch the games, the intangibles, the impact doesn't seem to be there- yet the stats are there and better.

Whats our record? this is not all on Rondo,as KG and Pierce are 36 and 35 and reaching the twilight of their careers. Hows our defense? this is not all on Rondo as we are now a small team, we have no Perk like enforcer in the middle....but Rondos defense is slipping badly and it started last year. There are some pundits that were claiming Rondo is one of the top 2 or top 3 PG's in the league....well I don't think hes near the top 5 or even 6. I listed 3 I would take over Rondo in a second, another could be Derrick Rose if he can get back all the way, by next year I might add Kyrie Irving to that list and Ricky Rubio? Rondo can't score enough to lift this team, great passer, but didn't Slick Watts, Kevin Porter and Don Buse lead the league in assists once? Rondos defense and intangibles used to make him such a beast of a point....I just don't see it this year, too many stretches of ineffectual basketball I'm seeing on both ends, despite all his assist stats, whats our record?

Sam says its not in his make up to score like some of the stud scoring points in the league, well with Duncan going 2-13 FG and Ginoblli playing 4 minutes, Spurs had a legit scoring point just play his game, step up and take it to us. I wish Rondo had more of a scorers mentality or ability, right now he doesn't seem to be able to do enough to carry us as a pass first point....but hes got great assist stats right?

cow

Cow

Here is how I see many posts in this thread....lots of good points, that go a few step overboard and start to negate those good points.

Rondo does gamble a bit more than he used to....but the ENTIRE Celtics defense is built around helping off your man and switching. It is far too simplistic to say, Rondo's man scores, so Rondo isnt playing good D.

Scoring is not Rondo's forte....but the other intangibles he brings is what makes him a great player and one that many in the league call the best pure point guard.

Rondo is shooting a career high FG% - a career high FT % - has a career high APG average, how you can start a tread about Rondo being the problem here is beyond me.

And when you start mentioning Ricky Rubio....you totally lose your credibility here IMO.

I think an important measure to consider about Rondo on offense is that he passes up too many open shots; both inside and out. His assist tally would lower slightly and his scoring raise, but he would give us one more scoring option for the defense to consider. It seems counterintuitive, but his value could raise if his assist total lowered because of the problem he would present to other teams on defense if he were a threat to fill it up on any given night. If you look at the games over the past two seasons where Rondo has had his biggest scoring totals I think you might see something interesting. If memory serves, it might also be good to check those boxes for more than the fact that we generally won.

I think Rondo may very well be among the best point guards in the league at a time when several outstanding points are present. For this current edition of the team to win, however, it's my opinion he needs to score more. I have to agree with the Laker on this one with regard to the current makeup of this team; which was an important part of his point.

kleen

I am not a stat guy, but if you've ever seen Rubio play, he has as much ball handling and passing skill as any player in this league. That old cliche he does things you can't teach, it applies with him, I'd say at similar ages Rubio is further along than Rondo was at his age in alot of phases. I don't want to keep knocking Rondo to prove my point as Rondo is still my favorite PG and he wears green and I bleed it.

NYCelt

Exactly how I feel, we need more, as in more scoring this year, if its his team, he has to live with the honor and burden of carrying us any which way he can. Hes got to increase his FG attempts, we may not need 20 ppg, I'd be thrilled with 18.

cow

Mrkleen,

I don't believe this thread is about whether Rondo's leading the league in assists is not having a positive effect on this team. His assists are of vital importance, although I don't believe the fact of his leading the league is nearly as much a motivator to his teammates as it is a yardstick of excellence among fans.

But being a good floor general involves a lot more than assists. The Celtics have bitten off a lot to chew this season by adding so many new faces; and clearly there have been a number of struggles in trying to come together. Whether or not he asked for it, the point guard is arguably the single most pivotal figure in helping the team to coalesce. We all have our opinions about how well he's doing in that job and what criteria should be consulted in forming those opinions. If you'll read back over my post, you'll see more than one occasion in which I also took Rondo's teammates to task—particularly for standing around.

As for being an old guy living in the past, I'm glad to participate in virtually any debate about basketball present and come off quite well, thank you. But I happened to see a comparison made between Rondo and Cousy, and I automatically perk up my ears in such a case lest it lead to history somehow being altered (and history thankfully turned out not to be altered in this case).

As far as citing Rondo's "RARELY" turning the ball over as one of his strengths, you might want to read the following list of prominent PGs and their average turnovers per game this season:

Kidd 0.8
Wall 2.1
Paul 2.2
Parker 2.2
Felton 2.4 (I included him mainly because the Knicks are doing so well)
D. Williams 3.0
Westbrook 3.3
Rondo 3.9

I didn't count Nash's two games this season with a 1.5 turnover rate because his career average is 2.9.

You see, I may be old, but I can still totter over to the computer and read, count, and (on a good day) sometimes even think.

Rondo remains my favorite player on the current Celtics team. However, since virtually everyone on the board (including myself) seems to feel this is "Rondo's team" both now and in the near-future, I feel that constructive critiques of his game are warranted—perhaps even vital—as long as they're not inherently ill-intentioned. After all, I have a vested interest in the Celtics' being as good as they can be during the few shallow breaths I have remaining.

Sam

Sam

I am all for constructive criticism of Rondo or anyone for that matter. But in a thread full of good points - those that cross the line into ridiculous-land also stand out.

Rondo is dealing with more new players on his team than anyone on that list you provided, so of course he is going to have more turnovers. If we want to sit here and poke holes in a player - lets take a look at those you have mentioned.

-John Wall has not played a minute this season, so not sure why he is on your list.
-Kidd isnt playing PG any longer, and Rondo has 4X this assists per game that Kidd has.....of course he has more turnovers.
-Felton has half the assists, half the rebounds and is barely shooting over 40%. He is playing well, history says it will not last.
-Paul is a great player.....his numbers are not far off from Rondo. Rajon is a better rebounder, better passer, shoots a higher % and plays more minutes.
-Parker is having a great year, cant say much about him other than Rondo plays more and is a much better rebounder and assist guy.


At the end of the day, as you correctly stated - this is Rondo's team and while it is fine to criticize him and find places where he needs to improve; some of this criticism is nothing more than "the grass in greener" stuff that we are famous for on this board.

kleen your the one bringing up all these other points that are not what the thread is about like old men living in the past, were not debating whos better Rondo vs say Tiny Archibald?

What the thread is more about is going forward, we may need Rondo to score more, especially as KG and Pierce are not able to carry us to a winning record like in years past......no one is blaming Rondo for all of the teams problems, were just pointing to changes in his game, one of them being his defense which many have noted is not at his previous high level.

Now Sam made an excellent point saying it may not be in his makeup and if a few others just avg a few more points, we wouldn't notice the problem and I feel he has the scoring ability and he should use those skills more for the betterment of the team. You say hes got his highest FG%, fine more evidence he should score/shoot more.

Bottomline I might have been harsh pointing out in simplistic terms how Tony Parker kicked Rondos ass, but it was 3rd game in 4 nights, and we had a double OT game one game before the back to back.....me bad. But I still feel we need more scoring out of the position going forward and your word credibility that you use I couldn't give 2 shits about whatever that may mean....oh my credibility is off/ no good/not worthy....I must be a bad person.....

cow

Cow - you are not a bad person. You are a great guy and a great Celtics fan.

All the rest is just opinion, so no one is right or wrong. Sorry if I made you feel that way.

kleen no problem apology accepted, were all great fans here

OK my take

Rondo is a bit bullheaded. Not sure he can be "changed" too much by anybody even KG or PP or Doc.

He is what he is a pass first point.

I feel his defense has regressed and it has put pressure on or back line with the pending return of Bradley that may help out on the team aspect defense.


As for Rondo's turnovers in what i've seen some of these are as mrkleen mentions we have new people out there and RR is still learning them, and they him. And a small part is the bullheaded bit of him.

Getting a few more points out of him would be nice, getting a few more out of the other 80% of the players on the court with him would be nicer.

beat

Mrkleen,

The Wall figures were from last year. The context for my post dealt solely with the capitalized word "RARELY" in your post. I wasn't trying to integrate other stats or contexts. I just don't call 3.9 TO per game "RARE" under any circumstances, but you have to judge for yourself.

I'm not sure what your "grass is greener" comment alludes to. If you're referring to all the woulda coulda shoulda comments about players the Celtics might have had, I agree that it's easy to make comments like that in hindsight and without full knowledge of all the factors that go into drafting a player.. If your comment pertains to Rondo, I'm not sure quite how.

Since you didn't mention it, just a reminder that name-calling is something this board frowns on—especially gratuitous name-calling when one's point could have been made without it. As one the most obvious (if not THE most obvious) members of the "group of old guys living in the past" you mentioned in a generally unfavorable light, I found the characterization pejorative and hurtful. Whether or not I agree with you, I would never call you a "young jerk."

I deliberately try to be quite restrained in referring to the past on this board. I like to think that, on the Game-on Thread and a very high percentage of other threads including this one, I post what I hope are some fairly cogent and thought-provoking entries about the present. Being referred to as "living in the past" by making one post that happened to deal with the past was demeaning, whether or not you meant it to be.

You may choose to call me overly sensitive, but meaning is in the eye of the beholder; and, in this case, you're not old so you don't get a vote in how an older person like myself might interpret those remarks. I make many jokes on the board about my age, and others have done it in a humorous way that I enjoy. Unfortunately, this wasn't one of those times.

Finally, could you offer some evidence supporting your statement that this board is "famous" for "the grass is greener stuff?" Do you mean that "grass is greener" types of comments are more prevalent here than on other such boards? What's your basis for the comment?

Thanks for your kind attention, and happy holidays.

Sam