Russell Jumps OVER a Player

If LeBron did this ESPN would rename the show "LeBron Center" (kudos to redsarmy.com for that header).



https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=j2AlFrOj5Mc



bob



.

Thanks for the link. I hadn't seen that particular clip before.

It speaks to our recent discussion about Russell vs. Jordan or whomever being the greatest player of all time. People are impressed by the athleticism of Jordan and LeBron, and rightly so, but if you never saw Russell play or are otherwise unaware of what a great athlete Russell was, it's easy to not consider him at that level. Combine that athletic ability with an unparallelled mind for the game, as great a defender and rebounder as the game has ever known, selfless team play, and an indomitable will to win, and you can't say anyone has played at a higher level (literally or figuratively).

NESN thinks the video is fake.
It doesn't look real to me. (my opinion)

Bill Russell Jumps Over Defender in Grainy, Probably Fake, Black-and-White Footage (Video)

http://nesn.com/2013/02/bill-russell-jumps-over-defender-in-grainy-probably-fake-black-and-white-footage-video/

Sam you've seen it all, ever see that clip? what do you think?

I don't see anything fake about the video and consider it an insult to Bill Russell's talent to jump to the conclusion without any evidence that this is fake. What I do know is the on many occasions Russ jumped high enough to swat away shots which were going up that Wilt had released from his outstretched arms extending from his 7'2" body.

Cow,

No, I've never seen it. It certainly wouldn't have been physically difficult for him, and the emotion of the moment could easily have motivated the move.

I don't have a film technician's perspective on how valid the sequence may be. However, one factor in favor of its being real is that footage exists of Russ dunking the ball; and a fabrication would have been more impressive if it displayed a dunk at the end. However, Russ' preference was to avoid dunking, which would be consistent with this sequence.

So my bet is 70-30 that the clip is real. If anyone has some actual evidence to the contrary that will trump my comments above, I await it. At least I have stated an actual reason for my opinion.

Sam

worcester wrote:I don't see anything fake about the video and consider it an insult to Bill Russell's talent to jump to the conclusion without any evidence that this is fake. What I do know is the on many occasions Russ jumped high enough to swat away shots which were going up that Wilt had released from his outstretched arms extending from his 7'2" body.

It's not an insult to Bill to question a video that was posted on YouTube.
The person that posted the video has not said where the video came from.
There are so many fraud/faked videos online, that this video that nobody has ever seen before has to viewed as questionable until it can be verified.

Looks totally real to me, if anyone could do that, a 6'10" track athlete like Russell definitely could. On yahoo they said it was from Russell's last college season, he led Dons to 2nd national title and avg 20-20....pretty amazing stuff from a legend.

TJ, why is it then that I've never seen you question a video involving the Lakers? They actually make movies out in L.A. you know, so there must be many Laker videos you could critique.

It isn't an insult to Bill (as if you could...), but it is an insult to Celtics fans trying to share a few happy memories of times when the Celtics used to obliterate the Lakers regularly.

Please don't play coy about your motivation for posting on this thread. It is purely a transparent attempt to rain on a little Celtics "parade." A little-known tenet in American jurisprudence is that video is considered real until it is proven to be unreal.

If you have proof that the video is a phony, post it. If not, you might want to take your talents to another thread. You know I've always been a staunch supporter of your right to free speech on this board, but I think you're a little off limits on this one.

Thank you,

Sam

I do not know if it is legit but I think it is.

I think it is a little bit of perspective that is fooling too cause I do not think he is jumping over the guy but more around him while the guy is crouching over slightly.

So the exaggerating is more in the title of the video than in the video itself.

Just look at Jordans free throw dunks and Carters dunk in the olympics, those had height equivalent to do this so it seems reasonable that Russell would be able to do it at full sprint, full of adrenaline and without the need to dunk at the end.

sam wrote:TJ, why is it then that I've never seen you question a video involving the Lakers? They actually make movies out in L.A. you know, so there must be many Laker videos you could critique.

It isn't an insult to Bill (as if you could...), but it is an insult to Celtics fans trying to share a few happy memories of times when the Celtics used to obliterate the Lakers regularly.

Please don't play coy about your motivation for posting on this thread. It is purely a transparent attempt to rain on a little Celtics "parade." A little-known tenet in American jurisprudence is that video is considered real until it is proven to be unreal.

If you have proof that the video is a phony, post it. If not, you might want to take your talents to another thread. You know I've always been a staunch supporter of your right to free speech on this board, but I think you're a little off limits on this one.

Thank you,

Sam

Sam,

What videos of the Lakers have been posted that I didn't question? If there was a never before seen video from 60+ years ago of George Mikan doing something that looked unnatural, I would question it. I question most videos that are posted online. We are naive not to do so because so many are fraudulant. I disagree that videos should be considered real until proven to be unreal. That is your opinion, I have a different opinion.

If I just posted NESN and others view doubting the authenticity of the video without giving my opinion on this video would you come at me the way you are?

And here we have TJ - once again showing his true colors.

He doesnt post in every thread out here....but simply searches (or trolls) through threads - looking for a nugget where he can jump in and rub a Celtics fan the wrong way.

TJ isn't trolling here. He has a valid point.

First off, it was NESN questioning the veracity of the video. That's not just his own opinion.

Second, it is an unfortunate fact of the Internet age that people want to go to great lengths to deceive other people and have the tools to do so. It started with forwarded emails with false claims, morphed into Photoshopped photos, and now includes fake or staged videos. It's gotten to the point that my brother sent me a group of nature photos today and I assumed that half a dozen of them were fake.

Here's a collection of fake sports videos.

http://www.athlonsports.com/overtime/best-fake-sports-viral-videos

Most of these types of videos are done as ads or promotions (the NFL did a bunch of them a couple of years ago). But the fact is that the technical capability is widely available to create such videos, usually by editing actual video footage to show something remarkable.

Now back to the Russell video. I have no doubt whatsoever that Russell could perform such a feat, and it's entirely possible that the video is real. However, TJ is correct to have a healthy dose of skepticism because a) no one here has seen this clip before, and this group has seen a LOT of Russell video; b) if this was newly uncovered film from Russell's USF days, there should be some explanation of how it was uncovered; and c) from what I can tell, this video is available from one Internet source, while every other clip I've seen is available from multiple sources.

So combine the fact that NESN was the first to voice skepticism about the video with some odd circumstances surrounding the video and the proliferation of fake stuff like this on the Internet, and I see nothing wrong with TJ being skeptical of the video. I'd certainly like to see something about the provenance of the source film.

Outside wrote:TJ isn't trolling here. He has a valid point.

Trolling has nothing to do with having a valid point. It means that someone only comments in threads where they can make some kind of inflammatory comment. Take a look at the majority of the places where TJ comments.

They are in threads where he is defending the Lakers (often against nothing but opinions he happens to disagree with), giving the Celtics a hard time, or contradicting a comment for the sake of being the contrarian.

His act is wearing thing imo.

mrkleen09 wrote:

Outside wrote:TJ isn't trolling here. He has a valid point.

Trolling has nothing to do with having a valid point. It means that someone only comments in threads where they can make some kind of inflammatory comment. Take a look at the majority of the places where TJ comments.

They are in threads where he is defending the Lakers (often against nothing but opinions he happens to disagree with), giving the Celtics a hard time, or contradicting a comment for the sake of being the contrarian.

His act is wearing thing imo.

Common sense will show that I will be the primary one defending the Lakers from biased, unreasonable comments, mostly from you and one or two others.

I bash my own team much more than I bash the Celtics. How many negative comments have I made about the Celtics here? I have blasted just about every Lakers player and management this year.

Saying I am a troll for not just going along with everyone else's Celtics first viewpoints is a cop out.
This is pretty much standard protocol for you. When you don't like what I say or can't refute what I am saying, you break out the troll card. Weak....

TJ- I havent made a comment about the Lakers all season...aside from posting a nice tribute to Dr Buss. But nice try.

mrkleen09 wrote:

Outside wrote:TJ isn't trolling here. He has a valid point.

Trolling has nothing to do with having a valid point. It means that someone only comments in threads where they can make some kind of inflammatory comment. Take a look at the majority of the places where TJ comments.

They are in threads where he is defending the Lakers (often against nothing but opinions he happens to disagree with), giving the Celtics a hard time, or contradicting a comment for the sake of being the contrarian.

His act is wearing thing imo.

We apparently disagree on what is trolling behavior. In my opinion, TJ exhibits nothing like the trolling behavior we saw on BDC or is common on most forums. I see absolutely nothing inflammatory in his comments on this thread.

(And before anyone seizes on the "this thread" limitation, I believe that applies to the vast majority of TJ's comments. He might have an occasional comment that I consider over the top, but they are rare, and if we're going to ban people for having an occasional over-the-top comment, you'd be able to convene a board-wide meeting in a phone booth. I know I wouldn't make the cut.)

I take the position of being a neutral observer, although I don't make it a secret that I grew up and remain a Warriors fan and now live in Southern California (where a certain purple and gold team plays). I can tell you that being a neutral observer on this board can be a difficult line to tread, and it must be exponentially more so for an avowed Laker fan such as TJ. It took me a while to find the right approach and be comfortable with posting here, and TJ has made considerable effort to be a gracious and contributing member of the board. He is always willing to accept valid criticism of the Lakers and has no hesitation to offer criticism of his own while enduring the expected and occasionally excessive negative posts about the Lakers. I find his posts to be reasoned and informative. He and Gyso are by far the board's most knowledgeable members when it comes to contracts, the salary cap, and the CBA in general, and that is rarefied air to be considered anywhere near Gyso when it comes to that stuff.

I believe that the main problem some people have with TJ is that he is a Laker fan. I believe that anything that he posts that could be perceived as negative about the Celtics wouldn't draw much attention if it came from an avowed Celtic fan. To an extent, that's part of the deal -- I accept that, as someone who isn't truly a Celtic fan, I have to temper my criticisms of the Celtics and just let some things go -- but I also firmly believe that outside voices make the board much better in the long run, as long as they are respectful. You may disagree, but I think that description applies to TJ. "Troll" is a wholly inaccurate description for him.

Outside wrote:

mrkleen09 wrote:

Outside wrote:TJ isn't trolling here. He has a valid point.

Trolling has nothing to do with having a valid point. It means that someone only comments in threads where they can make some kind of inflammatory comment. Take a look at the majority of the places where TJ comments.

They are in threads where he is defending the Lakers (often against nothing but opinions he happens to disagree with), giving the Celtics a hard time, or contradicting a comment for the sake of being the contrarian.

His act is wearing thing imo.

We apparently disagree on what is trolling behavior. In my opinion, TJ exhibits nothing like the trolling behavior we saw on BDC or is common on most forums. I see absolutely nothing inflammatory in his comments on this thread.

(And before anyone seizes on the "this thread" limitation, I believe that applies to the vast majority of TJ's comments. He might have an occasional comment that I consider over the top, but they are rare, and if we're going to ban people for having an occasional over-the-top comment, you'd be able to convene a board-wide meeting in a phone booth. I know I wouldn't make the cut.)

I take the position of being a neutral observer, although I don't make it a secret that I grew up and remain a Warriors fan and now live in Southern California (where a certain purple and gold team plays). I can tell you that being a neutral observer on this board can be a difficult line to tread, and it must be exponentially more so for an avowed Laker fan such as TJ. It took me a while to find the right approach and be comfortable with posting here, and TJ has made considerable effort to be a gracious and contributing member of the board. He is always willing to accept valid criticism of the Lakers and has no hesitation to offer criticism of his own while enduring the expected and occasionally excessive negative posts about the Lakers. I find his posts to be reasoned and informative. He and Gyso are by far the board's most knowledgeable members when it comes to contracts, the salary cap, and the CBA in general, and that is rarefied air to be considered anywhere near Gyso when it comes to that stuff.

I believe that the main problem some people have with TJ is that he is a Laker fan. I believe that anything that he posts that could be perceived as negative about the Celtics wouldn't draw much attention if it came from an avowed Celtic fan. To an extent, that's part of the deal -- I accept that, as someone who isn't truly a Celtic fan, I have to temper my criticisms of the Celtics and just let some things go -- but I also firmly believe that outside voices make the board much better in the long run, as long as they are respectful. You may disagree, but I think that description applies to TJ. "Troll" is a wholly inaccurate description for him.

Put another way if I, in my original post that started this thread, were to call into question a previously unknown video of a famous athlete many years later and well into the age of photo-shopping, NOBODY (I sincerely hope) would call me a troll for pointing out the surprising appearance of such a gem.



bob


.

bobheckler wrote:Put another way if I, in my original post that started this thread, were to call into question a previously unknown video of a famous athlete many years later and well into the age of photo-shopping, NOBODY (I sincerely hope) would call me a troll for pointing out the surprising appearance of such a gem.

Put another way, yes. Also a much better and succinct way.

What pains me the most about this whole deal is the sad fact that we have to be skeptical of something as ostensibly marvelous as this video. I do not understand what drives people to create all the false emails that flood my Dad's inbox. Snopes.com has an entire category called "Fauxtos" that addresses photos distributed in emails, most of which are fake or real photos with inaccurate and exaggerated descriptions. Now this fakery has moved into the realm of videos. I wish for that simpler time when you could trust what you saw on film or in a video, but alas, those times are gone.

What I want most of all is for the person who posted the Russell video to explain where he got it and demonstrate that it is real footage, because he really was that good of an athlete, and most NBA fans these days don't believe it.

Enjoy your postings tj. Keep them coming. Sometimes a hometown bias does not want to hear discenting opinion.
Swish

Swish, your spelling of the word dissenting is so rich with double entendre I shall be using it henceforth in many contexts. Discenting is a MUCH better spelling.

worcester wrote:Swish, your spelling of the word dissenting is so rich with double entendre I shall be using it henceforth in many contexts. Discenting is a MUCH better spelling.

worcester,

How about "dissceptive"?



bob


.

Outside,

As the moderator of the board, I have developed a keen sense of anticipation of brush fires. I often try to forestall them privately. In this case, I wanted Celtics fans to be aware that I had posted a caution to TJ.

As I clearly stated in my earlier comments, I'm usually in the position of supporting TJ and his right to express himself. In fact, I recently changed the title of the Lakers 1-4 thread only because I thought that the earlier title might take on a taunting tone if it were proliferated and it might seem unfair to TJ.

In this case, I felt that, while TJ had the right to comment, he didn't exercise good judgment in not only being a Lakers fan who just "happened" to be the first to register skepticism about something relating to a Celtic icon but also to go to the extra trouble of putting it in bold:

Bill Russell Jumps Over Defender in Grainy, Probably Fake, Black-and-White Footage (Video)

In my viewpoint, it was never, as you seem to think, about whether or not TJ had a point. But a Laker fan making that point on a Celtics board came off a lot differently than would have happened if a Celtics fan had made the same point. Perhaps it would have been advisable for TJ to exercise prudence in waiting to see if a Celtics fan did, in fact, make the same point.

But, in this case, it almost seemed that he couldn't wait to be the first one to throw a little water on the fire and to do so in bold print. I thought it was unwise on this board, and I still think it was unwise, and I stated that it was unwise, and I'd do so 100 out of 100 times.

I happen to think TJ ranks in the upper echelons of our members for his insightful posts, and I particularly like the way in which he documents what he has to say. I welcome his posts, and I will continue to support his right to make them. I also will continue to be as fair as possible in issuing cautions wherever and whenever I feel they're warranted. It happens FAR more often (including many private messages) than you or anyone else on the board know.

As far as the word "troll"' is concerned, I've never found a good definition, and I couldn't care less anyway because its very ambiguity leaves room for its use to appear insulting. It's a name, and name-calling is forbidden on this board. Moreover, whatever a troll is, TJ is obviously not one. He's just a fan of his team who usually does an amazing job of interfacing with Celtics fans on this board.

So, in this post, I'm issuing another caution that the term "troll" constitutes name-calling and will not be tolerated when applied to an individual.

Thank you,

Sam

Worcester,
Thanks for the edit. Just added it to my personal list of mis-spelled words. Just a few more and I'll have a book about the size of a dictionary.
Swish

Sam,

Just as an fyi, I always put titles in bold only to differentiate the title from my comments. I am definitely intrigued by that video. I don't doubt what remarkable athletes Russell and Chamberlain were, I am just at a disadvantage to appreciate them because I never saw them play. I will respond to others when I can but I'm on the road most of the day.