Two birds with one stone

Seems like the Daniels injury creates a short term issue for the Cs bench (backup 3) to go along with a longer term issue (backup 1).

If I were the Cs, I would do the following-


Scal, TAllen, Giddens and Walker ($7.68m total salaries- all expiring deals) for Rafer Alston and Trenton Hassle ($9.6m total- both expiring).

The salaries are just barely within 125% + 100k, so it works under the cap, and it's all expiring deals, so neither team takes on long term salary, which neither would do for these types of players.

NJ (which already has 15 players, so they would need to waive two) agrees to waive Scal and whichever other player you guys would want to come back to the Cs.


Cs get a solid veteran backup pg who played well as a starter in the playoffs last year until Van Gundy started messing with the rotation in the Finals and brought Jameer back. With a set role and the veteran leadership of the Big 3 and Doc, Alston would be a nice addition. Hassle is a long, solid defender with an underrated jumper and is a good team guy, who goes back to the Sota days with KG- a good veteran addition for any contender off the bench.

The Nets do this b/c they are the most cash-strapped franchise in the NBA until their sale goes through, so saving $2m (approx $1.5m pro-rated) means a lot to them. If the Cs had to sweeten it by throwing in another $1m cash, they should do it. NJ would jump at a trade like that.

Cs would end up paying an extra $3.5 m this year in payroll ($1.5M for increased pro-rated salaries and $2m in extra lux tax) but it would be well worth it.


And no, this isn't some hidden agenda b/c I secretly think Hassle is a time bomb waiting to explode in the Cs locker room.

If I were the LAkers, I would have already traded MOrrison and Farmar (both expiring) for Keyon Dooling and Hassle. For LA's needs in the triangle, and knowing Phil's preference for bigger guards, I like Dooling is a better fit.

To come off the Cs bench, I think Rafer is the better fit, and in either case, Hassle would be a nice addition.

skyhook,

You're rapidly becoming the first Laker fan I would put in touch with Danny Ainge. That is, if I could.

Creative thinking and good management on the finance end. We wouldn't give up much that we would miss, although Scal comes in handy and has been a key sub so I like your scenario for his return.

You'll pardon me of course for also wishing I could sensor your idea of Morisson and Farmar for Dooling and Hassle from ever appearing out west. As the friendly opposition, I don't want to see your guys get any deeper!

Regards

Sky

I hear you but in my book we keep what we got and build. Allen as in Tony is back and BBd will be soon. The Boston Celtics are in good shape. These guys know each other and have every single thing they need to win 18.

You guys are playing well. Congrats. We will see you soon.

BSH,

First, there is the sticky issue of who pays the salaries of the waived players, which would be over $4mil if Scal is included.

Second, this trade doesn't help the Celtics in the long run. My preference is to trade our expiring contracts for a single good player that is under contract for a couple more years. Then that player could potentially be used in combination with a couple of vet min players to get an even better player sometime in the future.

My trade scenario also should happen just before the trading deadline. That is defined as the 16th Thursday of the season, so that would be February 11.

Sorry, I would advise Danny to leave this one alone. Like Jeb says, lets play with what we have for now, there is no reason to panic. Patience will pay a better dividend.

gyso

I SAY: "GET RAFER ALSTON, A.S.A.P.!"-MD.

i thought Alston did play extremely well in last year's playoffs, until as BSH says, van gundy went and messed with a line up that was winning ball games for him. it seemed alston wasn't nearly the player he had been after that, nor did nelson play up to billing, so the move didn't work for the team or either player.

but with Quis out, is BU PG the real issue, or is someone to spell PP the real issue? if we needed a PG, sure, i like alston. but i suspect the real issue is minutes in relief for PP ...

Michael in Denver

As of 11:30 Thursday morning it's tied among the Celtics fans.

MD and I say heck yeah we should do it. gyso and Jeb say no way. Michael out in Denver (thanks for sending us that snow Michael) sounds like he's debating the merits.

Too bad this is a web-based discussion because you know the only way to settle this is to play for it.

A game of H-O-R-S-E, two man team style, skyhook serves as judge on all shots. It's cold out here in the east so we need to physically move the chat to SoCal and skyhook's court (or his team's court anyway).

And this concludes my morning bit of nonsense...

Why can't we have the game of H O R S E in the TD Garden. We're Celtic fans, we deserve it. Although instead of H O R S E, I'd like to have a half court game to 11 winner must win by 2 with make it, take it rules! How's that sound?-MD.

I'm kind of on the fence with this one. I like Sky's scenario, but I also like GYSO's idea of waiting and trading those guys for one good player to help in the future. Either of these scenarios are better than doing nothing and letting those contracts expire, so I hope one of you is right!

MDCelticsFan wrote:Why can't we have the game of H O R S E in the TD Garden. We're Celtic fans, we deserve it. Although instead of H O R S E, I'd like to have a half court game to 11 winner must win by 2 with make it, take it rules! How's that sound?-MD.

MD,

Those are the rules we play our pickup games by here, so I'm good with it!

Kelly,

This is almost an extension of the discussion about trades we were having in another thread yesterday. I think there's a little GM wanna be in all of us.

Regards

NYCelt, very true. It's tough to be so passionate about something that you have absolutely no control over! It's a wonder we're all still sane...well maybe not all of us

gyso wrote:BSH,

First, there is the sticky issue of who pays the salaries of the waived players, which would be over $4mil if Scal is included.

Second, this trade doesn't help the Celtics in the long run. My preference is to trade our expiring contracts for a single good player that is under contract for a couple more years. Then that player could potentially be used in combination with a couple of vet min players to get an even better player sometime in the future.

My trade scenario also should happen just before the trading deadline. That is defined as the 16th Thursday of the season, so that would be February 11.

Sorry, I would advise Danny to leave this one alone. Like Jeb says, lets play with what we have for now, there is no reason to panic. Patience will pay a better dividend.

gyso

Gyso-

under the Hassle/Alston scenario, the Nets would pay the salaries of the waived players (I think they have to under the CBA). BUt even though they were paying for two guys who weren't on the team, the Nets would still be saving almost $2m. If they wanted a little bit of sweetener, the Cs could throw some cash into the equation. The increased salary and lux tax that would result from the Cs taking back more salary would be about $3.5m. If they threw in another $1m, they'd be at a $4.5m total cost increase for the year, with no long-term salary obligations involved.

That's a very reasonable number to solve the bu pg problem, and to give them some more depth behind PP and Ray. If the Cs did it, I would think it could allow them (or ensure their ability) to finish with a #1 seed by winning a few more games. If that was the case, the $4.5m in extra cost would be recouped by one extra home playoff game. Well worth it to me.

I'm basing this on the fact that Orlando is a very deep team that lost one starter (an all star) for the first 10 games to a suspension and a second starter (another all star) to injury for the last 10 games, and yet after 20 games, they have the same record as the Cs, despite never having their preferred starting five on the court once.

My assumption is that the Magic will be right there with the Cs for best record in the East, (and with the Cs and Lakers for best record overall), and injuries will ultimately be the deciding factor most likely. If the Cs lost Rondo for 10 games or PP for 10 games, what do you think their record would be over those 10 games ? I think it could be an ugly stretch with their roster as presently composed- especially with Daniels injured, and could well cost them a # 1 seed. We know injuries happen for every team, (Gasol missed LA's first 10 games), it's just a question of what depth is there to fill in when necessary, and right now, the Cs' depth at the 1 and 3 doesn't look good. Hence the Alston/Hassle idea.


My other assumption is that the Cs don't want to take on long-term contracts via trade, so I only looked at cap-neutral deals that wouldn't affect the long term salary structure. If ownership was willing to take on, say, Nocioni's deal, I would have listed that type of idea also, as I agree with you that the Cs would be better off solving some long-term depth issues with moves like that. However, based on them passing twice on Nocioni for financial reasons, my assumption is that unless it's Chris Paul in a "Friday Free Crack Giveaway" type of trade, they're not looking to take on long-term $$$.

But that's just my reading from the Nocioni situation last spring and this fall. Do you think they will take on long-term $$$ ?

NYCelt wrote:As of 11:30 Thursday morning it's tied among the Celtics fans.

MD and I say heck yeah we should do it. gyso and Jeb say no way. Michael out in Denver (thanks for sending us that snow Michael) sounds like he's debating the merits.

Too bad this is a web-based discussion because you know the only way to settle this is to play for it.

A game of H-O-R-S-E, two man team style, skyhook serves as judge on all shots. It's cold out here in the east so we need to physically move the chat to SoCal and skyhook's court (or his team's court anyway).

And this concludes my morning bit of nonsense...

NYC-

Picture this:

About 10 minutes west of Malibu on a bluff overlooking a secluded stretch of oceanfront, protected by a big headland that is a state park, sits a beautiful Spanish-style mansion that is Architectural Digest quality. On part of the sprawling 5 acre grounds is a basketball court overlooking the deep blue ocean.

The landscaping is lush, and the house is secluded and quiet. You can always hear birds chirping and the waves breaking into the cliffs below.

You guys can come out and play on the court anytime you want.


Unfortunately, I don't own the place. I just walk by it on my way to surf sometimes.

jeb65 wrote:Sky

You guys are playing well. Congrats. We will see you soon.

You too buddy. Cs have been impressive on this win streak they're on.

bsh,

I'm still missing something. NJ saves 2mil in contracts then shells out over 4mil to buy out Scal and one more contract.

That sounds like that costs NJ 2mil, not saves NJ 2mil. What am I missing?

As far as Nocioni goes, that is exactly the type of contract that I am talking about. Perhaps Danny has his eyes on another prize. Without a move like that, I don't see how we keep Daniels and add anyone of quality during the next off-season. Daniels will want most or all of our MLE and that is all we have to use at that time.

We need to add a contract that goes out past this year (IMO) in order to be competitive next year on. Trading expirings for expirings doesn't do that.

gyso

Oh Sky, even though you don't live there, I kinda hate you for even walking by! It sounds like a dream. I've been to Malibu and it's BEAUTIFUL. I love Boston, but I long for SoCal weather and beaches!

NYCelt wrote:As of 11:30 Thursday morning it's tied among the Celtics fans.

MD and I say heck yeah we should do it. gyso and Jeb say no way. Michael out in Denver (thanks for sending us that snow Michael) sounds like he's debating the merits.

Too bad this is a web-based discussion because you know the only way to settle this is to play for it.

A game of H-O-R-S-E, two man team style, skyhook serves as judge on all shots. It's cold out here in the east so we need to physically move the chat to SoCal and skyhook's court (or his team's court anyway).

And this concludes my morning bit of nonsense...

NYC - sorry about the snow. it had to go somewhere - we could only hang on to it for so long out here !

the PP relief role has my attention even more than Quis' help with the PG slot. Paul is more than game, in fact he's a warrior, but seems to me his legs get tired after a while when the minutes get too high and his shot suffers as a result ...

on the other hand (maybe i AM on the fence) i've been hoping for a BU PG since all summer ... and i do kind of like Alston, and especially what he did for Orlando last playoff's. he played really very well. not so much what he did off the bench once Nelson was declared the starter, though, in what i thought of as a remarkable coaching blunder ...

Michael in Denver

gyso wrote:bsh,

I'm still missing something. NJ saves 2mil in contracts then shells out over 4mil to buy out Scal and one more contract.

That sounds like that costs NJ 2mil, not saves NJ 2mil. What am I missing?

As far as Nocioni goes, that is exactly the type of contract that I am talking about. Perhaps Danny has his eyes on another prize. Without a move like that, I don't see how we keep Daniels and add anyone of quality during the next off-season. Daniels will want most or all of our MLE and that is all we have to use at that time.

We need to add a contract that goes out past this year (IMO) in order to be competitive next year on. Trading expirings for expirings doesn't do that.

gyso

gyso-

you're counting Scal's contract twice.

Rafer Alston and Trenton Hassle= $9.6m total

Scal, TAllen, Giddens and Walker= $7.68m total

Whether they buy Scal out or he plays every game, he + the other three cost the same- which is approx $2m less than Rafer and Hassle. The cost of the other 13 players on the Nets is constant, so this is swapping higher salaried players for lower salaried ones.

Even though they would be cutting two of the incoming players, the Nets save $2m (approx $1.5m pro-rated) b/c the four Cs are $2m cheaper than the 2 Nets.

Cs would end up paying an extra $3.5 m this year in payroll ($1.5M for increased pro-rated salaries and $2m in extra lux tax) but it would be well worth it if they're not willing to make a Nocioni type of deal.


I agree with you that that would be a better long term move, but the Cs seem to be at or very close to the limit of what they want to spend. At least that's how it seems based on their passing on Noc twice, as he would really help them and be a great fit.

babyskyhook wrote:

gyso wrote:bsh,

I'm still missing something. NJ saves 2mil in contracts then shells out over 4mil to buy out Scal and one more contract.

That sounds like that costs NJ 2mil, not saves NJ 2mil. What am I missing?

As far as Nocioni goes, that is exactly the type of contract that I am talking about. Perhaps Danny has his eyes on another prize. Without a move like that, I don't see how we keep Daniels and add anyone of quality during the next off-season. Daniels will want most or all of our MLE and that is all we have to use at that time.

We need to add a contract that goes out past this year (IMO) in order to be competitive next year on. Trading expirings for expirings doesn't do that.

gyso

gyso-

you're counting Scal's contract twice.

Rafer Alston and Trenton Hassle= $9.6m total

Scal, TAllen, Giddens and Walker= $7.68m total

Whether they buy Scal out or he plays every game, he + the other three cost the same- which is approx $2m less than Rafer and Hassle. The cost of the other 13 players on the Nets is constant, so this is swapping higher salaried players for lower salaried ones.

Even though they would be cutting two of the incoming players, the Nets save $2m (approx $1.5m pro-rated) b/c the four Cs are $2m cheaper than the 2 Nets.

Cs would end up paying an extra $3.5 m this year in payroll ($1.5M for increased pro-rated salaries and $2m in extra lux tax) but it would be well worth it if they're not willing to make a Nocioni type of deal.


I agree with you that that would be a better long term move, but the Cs seem to be at or very close to the limit of what they want to spend. At least that's how it seems based on their passing on Noc twice, as he would really help them and be a great fit.

bsh,

Dense 2. a: Marked by a stupid imperviousness to ideas or impressions: thickheaded.

Dense = gyso

Yes, I finally get it, thanks for your patience. Money paid is money paid. My confusion came from ... I really don't know. I am trying to come up with a concrete reason why I didn't see it and I keep coming up against a brick wall.



gyso

bigpygme wrote:

NYCelt wrote:As of 11:30 Thursday morning it's tied among the Celtics fans.

MD and I say heck yeah we should do it. gyso and Jeb say no way. Michael out in Denver (thanks for sending us that snow Michael) sounds like he's debating the merits.

Too bad this is a web-based discussion because you know the only way to settle this is to play for it.

A game of H-O-R-S-E, two man team style, skyhook serves as judge on all shots. It's cold out here in the east so we need to physically move the chat to SoCal and skyhook's court (or his team's court anyway).

And this concludes my morning bit of nonsense...

NYC - sorry about the snow. it had to go somewhere - we could only hang on to it for so long out here !

the PP relief role has my attention even more than Quis' help with the PG slot. Paul is more than game, in fact he's a warrior, but seems to me his legs get tired after a while when the minutes get too high and his shot suffers as a result ...

on the other hand (maybe i AM on the fence) i've been hoping for a BU PG since all summer ... and i do kind of like Alston, and especially what he did for Orlando last playoff's. he played really very well. not so much what he did off the bench once Nelson was declared the starter, though, in what i thought of as a remarkable coaching blunder ...

Michael in Denver

Michael,

OK, I won't hold it against you for sending that storm our way. My wife has family in Boulder and we've stayed in Englewood. Beautiful part of the country, and although you do get some snow, it's nice that the sun actually comes out in the winter (unlike here!).

I agree with you about the importance of someone behind Pierce, and that may be where Daniels being out hurts most. What I liked about SkyHooks scenario was the idea of bringing in Trenton Hassell. He's is a more than capable defender, and not a terrible scorer. He looks like a decent stop-gap to me.

Of course in reality we're crossing our fingers that Tony Allen can do the job.

Regards

gyso and SkyHook,

You two are throwing some pretty heavy dollar signs around. I'm impressed with the financial savvy you both display.

Anything you guys can come up with to help GM?

babyskyhook wrote:NYC-

Picture this:

About 10 minutes west of Malibu on a bluff overlooking a secluded stretch of oceanfront, protected by a big headland that is a state park, sits a beautiful Spanish-style mansion that is Architectural Digest quality. On part of the sprawling 5 acre grounds is a basketball court overlooking the deep blue ocean.

The landscaping is lush, and the house is secluded and quiet. You can always hear birds chirping and the waves breaking into the cliffs below.

You guys can come out and play on the court anytime you want.


Unfortunately, I don't own the place. I just walk by it on my way to surf sometimes.

That is one nicely painted visual!

I'd gladly settle for a quick look and a splash in the ocean; its 23 degrees here.

Regards

NYCelt wrote:

bigpygme wrote:

NYCelt wrote:As of 11:30 Thursday morning it's tied among the Celtics fans.

MD and I say heck yeah we should do it. gyso and Jeb say no way. Michael out in Denver (thanks for sending us that snow Michael) sounds like he's debating the merits.

Too bad this is a web-based discussion because you know the only way to settle this is to play for it.

A game of H-O-R-S-E, two man team style, skyhook serves as judge on all shots. It's cold out here in the east so we need to physically move the chat to SoCal and skyhook's court (or his team's court anyway).

And this concludes my morning bit of nonsense...

NYC - sorry about the snow. it had to go somewhere - we could only hang on to it for so long out here !

the PP relief role has my attention even more than Quis' help with the PG slot. Paul is more than game, in fact he's a warrior, but seems to me his legs get tired after a while when the minutes get too high and his shot suffers as a result ...

on the other hand (maybe i AM on the fence) i've been hoping for a BU PG since all summer ... and i do kind of like Alston, and especially what he did for Orlando last playoff's. he played really very well. not so much what he did off the bench once Nelson was declared the starter, though, in what i thought of as a remarkable coaching blunder ...

Michael in Denver

Michael,

OK, I won't hold it against you for sending that storm our way. My wife has family in Boulder and we've stayed in Englewood. Beautiful part of the country, and although you do get some snow, it's nice that the sun actually comes out in the winter (unlike here!).

I agree with you about the importance of someone behind Pierce, and that may be where Daniels being out hurts most. What I liked about SkyHooks scenario was the idea of bringing in Trenton Hassell. He's is a more than capable defender, and not a terrible scorer. He looks like a decent stop-gap to me.

Of course in reality we're crossing our fingers that Tony Allen can do the job.

Regards

regards from Denver, NYCelt - nice to hear about the family ties.
sun's out here and we finally climbed above freezing today. it's been a while.

it's also been a while since i was impressed by what TA brings to the game. i just can't seem to get on the bandwagon that's building, such as on the for/against thread. i don't even think his defense is especially sound, and that's sort of been his calling card, along with his relatively unfocused athleticism. Bob H commented on his potential offensively if he'd move without the ball ... and i'm thinking, "better than watching him dribble it ! "
there, see what i mean - haven't climbed on that wagon yet ... maybe i should just listen to people who know more b-ball than me and learn a little !

M in Denver

Michael,

We've all watched Tony Allen dribble the ball off his foot, so I get your meaning.

For the record, I don't know if there's a Tony Allen bandwagon building but I'm with you standing on the sidewalk if there is. I'd classify myself more as crossing my fingers that the flashes he showed in the past are still there.

I'm a glass is half-full kind of guy, but I try to be realistic. Tony is sometimes enough to make me want to put my glass back in the dishwasher.

Regards

LOL - good line ! yeah, NYCelt - really, i'm just trying to be realistic too, about what he can and can't bring to the party. IMO, and there's plenty that know more than me, he just doesn't produce much on either end, not even with ocassional reliability. maybe i'll eat my words if he blossoms somewhere else in 2 years, but for now it seerms a case of what you see is just what you're gonna get.

i'm as loyal as anyone, and wouldn't want to see him cut short without a chance to show his stuff, but he's been around a while now and i don't see him as contributing solid minutes to this effort.

ok, off my soap box now. good luck to TA, however it turns out, and Go C's !

by the way, i had pictured you in NYC for some reason, but your Weather Advisories and such make it clear that you';re upstate somewhere, and an hour east of Buffalo, is that right? i grew up in southern NH and was around NE most of my life - had 6 great years on the Cape and still daydream about landing back there again.

best,
Michael in Denver