POST GAME - PHILLY - AWAY

 CELTICS REMAIN UNBEATEN WITH RAJON RONDO, AVERY BRADLEY BACKCOURT

WEEI

By Ben Rohrbach 

The Celtics hadn’t won two games in a row since Dec. 13 and 16, gathering Ping Pong balls as the slid down the NBA standing over the past month, but they improved to 2-0 with Rajon Rondo and Avery Bradley in the starting backcourt.

Rondo approached triple-double territory (8 points, 11 assists, 9 rebounds), Bradley contributed 14 points and the two combined for five steals in a 114-108 victory against the host 76ers.

Meanwhile, Jeff Green led all scorers with 36 points, helping the C’s (17-33) avenge last week’s buzzer-beating loss to Philadelphia (15-35) in the Garden. Jared Sullinger (19 points, 10 rebounds), Brandon Bass (18 points) and Jerryd Bayless (11 points) also reached double figures.

WHAT WENT RIGHT

Backcourt’s back: After missing two weeks with an ankle injury, Bradley  picked up where he left off, scoring 17 points in his return on Sunday and reaching double figures against the Sixers within the game’s first 10 minutes. Despite playing four seasons together, Bradley and Rondo haven’t even started in the same backcourt for half a season’s worth of games. How that duo performs the rest of the way could dictate whether they remain teammates for years to come. The early returns are positive — on both sides of the ball, as Bradley and Rondo also helped keep Michael Carter-Williams (11 points) and Evan Turner (12 points) in check.

Green thumbs up: Likewise, Green showed signs of the uber-athletic potential everyone imagined in his pairing with Rondo. Green had a baker’s dozen by halftime, and Rondo assisted on three of his five field goals — including back-to-back buckets during a 10-0 run that helped the Celtics establish a nine-point lead just before halftime. Green’s involvement in the early going usually leads to his continued effort the rest of the night, and Rondo may help make that a trend.

Sharing the wealth: Actually, just about everybody benefited from Rondo’s presence. The C’s assisted on 13 of their 14 first-quarter field goals, taking a 34-23 lead after one, and finished the first half with 19 dimes on 23 FGs. Rondo had nine of the 19.

WHAT WENT WRONG

Awkward Klynyk: Celtics rookie Kelly Olynyk continues to endure some growing pains. Brad Stevens severely limited his minutes after an all-around poor performance. In one tough-to-watch stretch, a Philadelphia shot clock violation bailed him out of biting on a Spencer Hawes up-fake from beyond the arc, and then he committed a horrific turnover in transition.

Sloppy second: Stevens rested Rondo with a seven-point lead midway through the second quarter, and the 76ers immediately rattled off a 10-2 run that included a pair of Carter-Williams buckets in the Celtics point guard’s absence. The stagnant C’s were forced to bring back the still recovering Rondo after just three minutes of rest. Through three quarters, the Celtics outscored the Sixers 68-57 with Rondo on the floor while Philly owned a 25-20 advantage with him on the bench.

Avery’s ankle: Bradley appeared to tweak his ankle again in the fourth quarter and sat the final 3:16. After his performance alongside Rondo the last two games, any more missed time would be another devastating blow for the C’s.
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Rapid Reaction: Celtics 114, 76ers 108

By Chris Forsberg | ESPNBoston.com

Rapid reaction after the Boston Celtics defeated the Philadelphia 76ers 114-108 on Wednesday night at the Wells Fargo Center:

THE NITTY GRITTY
Jeff Green had one of those tantalizing nights, erupting for 36 points on 11-of-18 shooting with eight rebounds, two assists and two blocks over 35 minutes to pace Boston to consecutive wins. Rajon Rondo controlled the game, finishing with eight points, 11 assists and nine rebounds over 32 minutes. What's more, Rondo was plus-16 when he was on the court and the Celtics were simply a different offensive team when he was in the game. Jared Sullinger added 19 points and 10 rebounds, while Brandon Bass kicked in 18 points and six rebounds. Thaddeus Young scored a team-high 20 points for Philadelphia, while both Spencer Hawes (13 points, 14 rebounds) and Lavoy Allen (10 points, 10 rebounds) chipped in double-doubles.

GREEN IN FOCUS
The Celtics got locked-in Green, who rarely relented on Wednesday night. He finished alley-oops from Rondo in transition, he attacked the basket often, and he was red-hot beyond the 3-point arc (5-of-7). What's more, Green was active on the glass, he came up with a couple nice blocks, and he did all the things the Celtics want to see on a night-in, night-out basis.

TURNING POINT
Green scored 17 third-quarter points and a 3-pointer with 3:45 to play in the frame had Boston out front by 12 (the team's biggest lead of the night). The 76ers made it a one-possession game early in the fourth frame, but the Celtics kept Philadelphia at arm's length (never letting the hosts get closer than four down the stretch). Sullinger's old-fashioned three-point play with 59 seconds to go had Boston out front by 7 and pretty much ensured the 76ers wouldn't make things too interesting.

LOOSE BALLS
Joel Anthony and Phil Pressey were healthy DNPs for the Celtics. ... Vitor Faverani, recalled from the D-League on Wednesday, was not active after tweaking his knee in an appearance with the Maine Red Claws. ... In what could be his final game with the Celtics, Chris Johnson played only 3:09 and missed the only shot he took. Johnson's second 10-day pact expires on Thursday at midnight and his future remains unclear as Boston tries to maintain roster and financial flexibility. ... Avery Bradley played less than 26 minutes and sat out late while nursing a sore ankle. ... Jerryd Bayless added 11 points over 27:20 off the bench for Boston, while handing out five assists as he's settled into the role of top backup ball-handler.

WHAT IT MEANS
The Celtics (17-33) won consecutive games for the first time since Dec. 13-16 (when Boston improved to 12-14). With wins over two of their Eastern Conference basement roommates (Orlando, Philadelphia), the Celtics remain five games back of a playoff spot. Boston has an off day Thursday before hosting the Sacramento Kings on Friday. A visit from the Dallas Mavericks looms on Sunday, then games against Milwaukee and San Antonio before the All-Star break.

112288

A much needed win, and against the team that stole a hard fought game on a last-second shot.

A few observations...


1. Rondo is certainly proving himself to be "The Captain." He's playing great basketball right now and he hasn't even fully gotten back to 100% ability. Rondo made more plays that were reminiscent of his old self. He pushed the pace better and set up his guys for easy shots. He finished with 8 pts, 9 reb, 11 ast, and 2 stl.

Overall, the team finished with 19 fast break points and 46 points in the paint.

2. Jeff Green had another electrifying game, in fact, I believe this is Green's best game of the season for several reasons:

-He finished with 36 points on 11-18 shooting, 5-7 from 3, and 9-12 FT. His offense was exceedingly efficient. He attacked the paint often and demanded the ball, making for a masterful game.

-Jeff Green was playing well on the defensive end, snagging two steals and bothering shots with his length. He also pulled in 8 rebounds.

I know a lot of people have been saying "where is Jeff Green?" and "why doesn't he always play this way?' I'd have to say the answer is rather simple: the offense has just been bad/terrible/abysmal/anything negative you can muster to call it. Before Rondo, the offense rarely had any semblance of continuity. Now, Rondo's making everyone's job easier. And the residual impact is vital for Green. He's not the kind of guy than can be "the main one." He needs another star to free him up to do what he can do. We're seeing the impact of Rondo's return. Of course, Jeff will need to play more consistently, however, this will be easier in my opinion judging by the fact that Rondo is taking a great deal of pressure away from him.

3. Don't look now but Sullinger just recorded another double-double (19 points on 6-11 shooting and 10 rebounds). He was an absolute beast from wire to wire and is continuing to improve. I just wish he's stop with the threes... -_-

--

There were times in the 3rd and 4th where the offense was struggling to execute, but overall it was a great game. The cohesiveness is truly starting to take form. On a final note, I thought Pressey could've done more to keep the pace going when Rondo went to the bench than Bayless did. Great win nonetheless.



KJ

As I said on the Game-on Thread, they exhibited some winning ways in the first half and demonstrated how to close out a game at the end. Otherwise, the remainder of the third and fourth quarters was unremarkable, the pace deteriorated whether or not Rondo was in there.

Rondo seems to have his full arsenal of weapons at his disposal. The next step in his return will be to sustain attack basketball for 36 MPG. The first half featured a lot of up-tempo basketball; and that time period saw the best Celtics offensive cohesion and execution. In Jeff Green's case, the offensive surge even seemed to energize him in his defensive role, although his performance was somewhat less exciting in the second half. However, to his credit, he chipped in with some valuable points toward the end.

I still say Green has difficulty creating his own shot, other than the baseline turnaround and open threes. I have felt that he does not do well when his shots are contested. That is the main value of Rondo with respect to Jeff. Rajon presented Jeff with several on-the-money passes for open shots, including a couple of transition alley oops of which one should make the yearly highlight reel. There's every reason to surmise that Rondo's inconsistency has been due at least partly to the inconsistency of Celtics point guards, including Rondo's first few games after his return.

Heinsohn said that Bass "knows where his shots are." I said I thought he had the most automatic bailout shot on the team. But he's doing more on offense than just shooting jumpers. He's slowly developing a better handle and taking the ball to the rim for either a bucket or freebies. And his defense is probably not appreciated to the extent it should be.

Sully has become a very consistent Raging Bull and looks to me like a definite building block for the long-term. I'll never like all the threes; but, when he's open and doesn't force them, he tends to make them. And they don't seem to compromise his ability to be in the thick of the action under the offensive boards.

I'm sorry about Bradley's tweaked ankle. I hope it's not serious. He seemed to be kidding with the guys in some of the huddles, so maybe that's a good sign.

This team is having quite a few double-figure offensive rebounding games. Sully, Bass and Humphries, in particular, are hanging around under the offensive basket longer than when they typically turned tail and retreated when a Celtics shot rattled off the rim or board. On the other hand, the Sixers got 28 fast break points—many of them within five seconds of when the Celtics had scored. So i'm not sure about the right balance between going for the offensive boards versus attention to hightailing it on transition defense.

I thought only 11 turnovers was pretty good for this team. Rondo had three turnovers and 11 assists, and I really have no quarrel with that. For a guy who threads so many passes beautifully, some margin of error has to be expected.

The good news is that the Celtics assisted on 66% of their made field goals. That figure is exactly the minimum I like to see when Rondo's running the show. (When he was out, I hardly looked at that stat.) The even better news is that they assisted on 83% of their made field goals in the first. The bad news is that the figure fell to only 44% in the second half. It comes as no surprise to any of us that second half letdowns are an important part of the Celtics' developmental process. Because, in my opinion, slick teamwork is the number two catalyst for a healthy Celtics offense. (Number one is pace, which was also much better in the first half than the second.)

With only three minutes, it looks as though Johnson won't be with the team after Thursday. I hope they work out some way to keep him available. I really like the kid. But at least Chris got three more minutes than Phil Pressey. And Olynyk didn't get more than the obligatory 12 developmental minutes—even against a pretty bad team. At the present time, it looks as though the core of the team consists of Sully, Humphries, Bass, Green, Wallace, Rondo, Bayless and (barring injury) Bradley. I expect to be chided for omitting Kelly, but I'm just not sensing that he's anywhere close to being a regular core contributor; and I'm not seeing much development from him in his weak areas of defending (brutal at times last night!) and rebounding.

I'm sure BobH will post his usual detailed viewpoints. These are just some things I wanted to mention.

One more. If they're tanking, they did an awfully poor job last night. (Ridiculous!)

Sam

Nice win over a bad team... I'll take it.

I thought that the team played very well especially Rondo.  There was a noticeable quickness in his step.  

It was also good to see Green make some shots.  The Celtics were determined to get him off early and that carried throughout the game.

Sully and Bass continue to do all the little things to help this team compete.  

AB started off strong but after he tweaked his ankle he needed to sit.

Poor KO.  He looks awful.  He could use a stint in the D-league to work on his skills.  His confidence is shot.

With Kelly playing poorly how come Joel Anthony is not getting any minutes?

The substitution patterns employed by Stevens were odd and I dare say had a negative impact on the continuity of the team.  

Bay Leaves is only 23 years old but moves so slow and methodical when he is taksed with running the point.  He does not have the ability to create for his teammates.  He definitely provides more offense than Pressey but Pressey is a much better pace setter.  

dboss

I have mixed feelings about this game.  Then again, I have mixed feelings about most things.  My sister tells me that's because I'm a Libra, my exes say "I'm conflicted" while I prefer to look at it as open-minded and embracing critical thinking.  This perhaps helps to explain why eye witnesses are considered so unreliable.  Anywho, while I certainly loved the win, I remember that this is NOT a good team we beat and that this game had our entire starting back court back when the previous game against them we didn't.  Getting Rondo and Bradley back, coupled with the bad taste of that buzzer-beating loss, should have made this a much, much bigger beat down than it was.

I had Tommy and Mike for most of the game and then, for no apparent reason, I got the Philly feed.  I have to say, they were pretty even-handed.  They said nice things when nice things were deserved and made less flattering statements when they were deserved and they didn't single out one team or another.  They repeatedly mentioned how the Sixers got breaks on calls.

The reffing was weird last night.  Most of the game I thought it was pretty good and pretty even.  Then, for a stretch in the 4th, they swallowed their whistles and the game changed completely.  I thought they were still even-handed in how the called the game, but players were getting smacked around and there were no whistles.  I saw Jeff Green go flying, horizontally, out of bounds away from the ball, and no call.  I heard, over my headphones (not by Dre) Kelly getting slapped when he tried that layup under the basket.  I heard the sound of flesh-on-flesh.  No call.  Young and Turner and Wroten all got hit too, no calls.  It was even, but it was a big change from the previous 3 quarters.  I wonder why?

Clock winding down in the 4th and the Philly coach isn't telling his players to foul Rondo?  Bad coaching.  The two times we played Houston you could hear Brad yelling "Foul him!  Foul him NOW!" for the obligatory final minute Hack-a-Howard defense.

1.  Captain Courageous.  Man, the difference between having Rondo on the floor and not was like night-and-day.  With him sitting, we were tentative offensively, not seeing players coming around screens and being ready to pass the ball to them as they came free, not running as much.  "Sure", you say, "what do you expect?  Rondo's an all-star and probably the best pure passing point guard in the league, of course there's going to be a drop in offensive cohesion!".  Yeah, but that's the point.  We're still discombobulated but now with periods of coherency.  Rondo has said that he doesn't need to play 35-40mpg, that he's ok with 28-30.  Well, that leaves 18-20mpg for us to get disassembled and that's not good.  When Rondo was on the court, though, man did we look good.  He ran.  He actually ran.  He walked up occasionally, when the Sixers had 4 guys back, but that's ok what matters is that when they weren't back we had to ball at the 3pt line with 20 or even 21 seconds left on the clock.  I love that and Brad Stevens must too.  One rebound and an assist shy of a triple double but, more importantly, he provided buckets of glue.  If the rust isn't all gone, there's just a patina left.

2.  The Philly announcers said "If Jeff Green could do this every other game or so, he'd be an all-star. But next game he might have a 12 point, 5 rebound game".  Boy, do they ever know him.  This was a night when we got Jeff Green's good twin.  At the half, Green had 13 points on 5-8 and 2 TOs.  Halftime.  Relax.  Take a load off.  Listen to the coach go on about this and that.  Put on your headphones and listen to Beats By Dre.  Second half.  BOOM!!  A spectacular block by Green less than 3 minutes into the 3rd out of nowhere against 7'1" Spencer Hawes lit the fuse.  He went on to score 17 points in the 3rd quarter on a variety of shots, many of them 3s but also his graceful, swooping layups.  17 in a 32 point quarter with 13 of them coming in a single 2:23 stretch.  They put Thaddeus Young on him, didn't help.  They put Evan Turner on him, didn't help.  When Jeff is in the zone, he is locked in.  He also scored 6 points in a 26 point 4th quarter.  The Philly announcer said "The Sixers are playing like they're seeing these plays for the first time. They're standard NBA sets, a double staggered screen to rub Jeff Green's man off on".  How in God's Name can we bottle this?  I don't expect 36 every night, only Durant and maybe LBJ can do that in this league now, but how about 20?  Drop and give me 20 Jeff, night-in-and-night out, and you're an all-star.  20.  It's not like you can't do it, right?

3.  Like your counterpart, Thaddeus Young.  He scored 20 last night on 9-17.  In fact, he's averaging 17.5ppg this year and 18.4ppg the last 10 games and 19.2ppg the last 5 games.  He's steady, predictable, like the number of fat calories in a Philly cheese steak, you know what you're going to get.  Is Young's upside as high as Green's?  Probably not, Green has shown us absolutely eye-popping upside potential, but potential isn't worth spit if it's not translated into reality on a regular basis.  I like Thaddeus Young, a lot.  So does Tommy and Mike and you know that Tommy doesn't gush about a lot of players not wearing green.  I'm not saying trade for Young, I'm just saying that if Green used Thaddeus as a bit of a role model for his consistency that wouldn't be a bad thing.

4.  Sully won the Mastodon Mamba last night only it wasn't against Hawes, who is not a mastodon.  It was against Lavoy Allen, although Allen acquitted himself well too.  Allen is 6'9", 250# and plays like he's 6'11", 265#.  Hawes is 7'1", 245# and plays like he's Kelly.  Actually, when you think about it, their games and bodies have similarities.  7'1" vs 7"0", 245# vs 238#, likes to shoot outside vs likes to shoot outside, defensively challenged vs defensively challenged.  Kelly, at least, has the excuse of being a rookie.  Put 10-15# on him and kill his puppy and we might see a very different player in a year or two.  Hawes is as soft as a flour taco and probably always will be.  As it is, though, Kelly "the toothpick" sets and holds better picks than Il Hombre Indestructible.  There was talk Danny wanted to trade for him when he was in Sacto.  I'm glad he didn't.  Sully owns him, lock-stock-and-barrel.  Allen, however, reminds me of a Jason Maxiell or Paul Millsap.  Sully hit from everywhere, had a double-double, again and got a BIG Tommy point for going to the hardwood after a ball.  He also had some fantastic high post passes in the first quarter.  I love it when Sully does that.  He's a great passer for a big man and has the range to draw his man out and open up the middle.  As I've said, I'd trade Sully for LaMarcus Aldridge or Kevin Love, but I can't think of anybody else.  He's a definite keeper, not just because of his play but because of his pride and ganas.

5.  Tony Wroten has found himself a home, I think.  This is the 3rd game in a row he scored 18 points.  Hear that, Jeff?  One of the things I liked about Wroten was his lack of fear of taking it to the rim.  

6.  Bass played a very smart and disciplined game.  His defense was stellar with a block and some great rotations.  His offense was spot-on too.  18 points on 7-10.  At one point, Bass had the ball out at 20'.  He was looking for someone to pass to, looking, looking, looking.  His defender fell off him a bit and what did Bass do?  Did he take the 20'er, which is a little outside of his range?  No.  He took a dribble to 17', which is within his range, and hit the jumper.  Great shooting discipline by Bass.  Starting again, played 35 minutes as Brad went heavy with his starters this game.  He plays better as a starter.  I don't know what that means long-term, but it works short-term.

7.  I think the biggest difference between Hump and Bass is that Hump can come off the bench and still deliver a high-quality per minute bench performance.  He only played 13 minutes last night, WAY down from his average, and yet he had 7 rebounds, 2 offensive, 1 steal and a block.

8.  Other than his shooting %, Bay Leaves had a solid game.  He played some outstanding, truly outstanding, man-to-man defense on 6'6" Rookie of the Month and leading candidate for ROY Michael Carter-Williams.  He repeatedly stymied Williams' attempts to penetrate and create something.  Bayless' 4-12 shooting leaves much to be desired, of course.  He's shooting an abysmal 38% in his last 10 games and is 37.6% season-to-date.  I think his offensive game is pretty straight-forward.  Set a pick for him at the top of the key, let him come off it into the open space and let him shoot.  He is a knock-down shooter on that play.  He's not great full court point guard, that I've seen, he's not a great drive-and-disher, but he's a decent "pass to the popper" passer.  He also had a very nice "hockey assist", grabbing the board and quickly passing it to Wallace at halfcourt who quickly hit Bass for a dunk.  An extremely well-executed 2 pass fast break, started by Bayless' heads up look up court.  He had 5 assists and zero turnovers last night, and that doesn't include the hockey assists, so this was a very good night for Jerryd.  As long as we forget about the 33% from the field.

9.  Bradley had 14 points at the half on 6-12.  He ended with 14 on 6-15.  That ankle, that ankle.  I hope he's ok.

19 fast break points is pretty good.  They had 28.  Not so good.  Granted, they are probably the MOST up-and-down-the-floor team in the NBA, but 28?  They got a lot of layups and dunks off of transitions.  Something we need to work on.

We took 84fgas.  That's not bad, not great.  They had 94fgas.  That's a ton.  They ran at every opportunity.  Every single one.  One time, Tony Wroten over-ran a loose ball because he was so intent on running up court and just assumed one of his teammates would get it and pass it up to him.  Ok, maybe that's a bit TOO much focus on running, but it is obviously deeply seared into their brains.  RUN!!

9 of our 13 TOs came in the 4th quarter.  9.  Three of them came in a 2:28 period, when Rondo sat down for a rest and another 4 in clutch time (5 minutes or less, neither team ahead by more than 5).  We went completely wobbly when execution is paramount.  Again.

Let's take the wins where we can get them, however we can get them, because they're not being delivered by the boxcar this year.  With Joel Embiid making noises about staying at Kansas for another year the draft looks a lot weaker suddenly.


bob


.

Nice summary Bob

My only disagreement is about the comparison you made between Allen and Milsap.

There is nothing about them to compare.  Milsap is a well established stud averaging 17.7 PPG and 8.4 rebounds.  He is exceptionally quick.  Allen on the other hand is insignificant.

Also DA should have drafted Milsap instead of Leon Powe

dboss

So here is a hypothetical for the group

Player A is a career 9 ppg / 6 rpg player.  He has had averages as high as 12 ppg and as low as 2 ppg, but has at this point settled in at 9 ppg.  He has a career high game of 21 points. It is clear Player A is a solid contributor but with 8 years in the league, he has already hit his ceiling.

Player B is a career 14 ppg / 5 rpg player.  He has had averages as high as 17 and as low as 10 ppg, this year even with some inconsistent play, he is at 16.3 ppg - leading scorer on his team and has scored 10 points or more in 40 of the teams 50 games and has gone over 25 points 9 times.  He has a career high of 39 points and poured in

So my question is would you rather a guy who scores 10 points every night, points you can count on every time out - who has no ability to score more than 10?  Or a guy who is inconsistent, yet has the skills to go for 30+ at any given time?

Seems that some of you would rather the underwhelming but consistent approach of player A. 

But I would take Player B all day and twice on Sunday.

Well if you are comparing the same position then of course you take Player B

but if Player A provides a positional need then you should evaluate the relative impact that each player would have as well as the option to acquire a similar or better player if you take one player over the other.

If player A for example has injury related issues then that should also be factored in as well as salary,  and how player A fits the team's needs.

I think it is always difficult to judge a player without looking at the team.

dboss

Dboss,

Bayless has 75% as many assists as Pressey per minute. But Pressey has only 45% as many points as Bayless. per minute. I agree that Bayless isn't that great a floor general, especially in the open court. But, considering that either Bayless or Pressey will be unlikely to play more than a few minutes at PG with Rondo at full strength. I think I'd prefer to go with the more balanced combination of offensive skills that Bayless represents. Lately, I don't see a lot to pick between them on defense.

You and I may define "continuity" differently. Put simply, I define it as meaning without interruptions that may slow down progress. In my mind, it would be an interruption of whatever chemistry they are gaining—therefore a risk of discontinuity) to give minutes to Anthony (other than in necessary circumstances such as injuries).

Sam

Sam I certainly do not disagree with you but last night the tempo slowed down considerably when bay leaves entered the game.  

Bay leaves is obviously a better all round player than the rook but Pressey does create tempo and that was missing once bayless rotated into the game to run the point.

Neither one of them are adequate BU PG's in my opinion and that is why I suggested in another post that drafting a young PG over the next year or so may not be a bad idea.

As far as Anthony is concerned, he did not fall off the turnip wagon yesterday.  He is a seasoned veteran who can play defense and rebound.  Kelly on the other hand is not really helping the team right now for whatever reason.

DA made a trade that includes Anthony and I think he needs to play ahead of kelly.  if you recall Anthony was always a pain in the arse when the Celtics played the Heat.  He may not have the same level of play at this point in his career but we have not even seen him play with the other guys.

Continuity can be disrupted if kelly comes in the game and is totally ineffective.

I will go with the veteran over this overhyped rookie.  Stevens benched Kris early in the year and he is making another mistake by not seeing what Anthony can do.  We have seen Anthony play before.  He may be able to help this ball club

While we all want KO to succeed the reality points to the fact that he is not good at anything in particular and specifically horrible in the areas that we need help (Defense and rebounding)

dboss

If Brad wants to maintain up tempo play, then play Pressey at the point and BayLeaves at the SG spot.

Seems like a reasonable situation to me.



KJ

Good compromise, KJ.

Dboss, I understand your point; and, if the objective were to win a couple of otherwise unwinnable games this season, I'd agree. But I keep reminding myself that positive development for the future is this year's objective. I don't think the pace of the development will have an uptick until they get a real intimidator in the middle. in the meantime, I'd be happy to see the development occurring with neither Anthony nor Olynyk in the rotation. Perhaps Kelly's presence is helping him to develop (but at a very slow pace). But I don't really believe it's helping the team to develop. I agree with you that I'd rather see him with the Red Claws.

Sam

mrkleen09 wrote:So here is a hypothetical for the group

Player A is a career 9 ppg / 6 rpg player.  He has had averages as high as 12 ppg and as low as 2 ppg, but has at this point settled in at 9 ppg.  He has a career high game of 21 points. It is clear Player A is a solid contributor but with 8 years in the league, he has already hit his ceiling.

Player B is a career 14 ppg / 5 rpg player.  He has had averages as high as 17 and as low as 10 ppg, this year even with some inconsistent play, he is at 16.3 ppg - leading scorer on his team and has scored 10 points or more in 40 of the teams 50 games and has gone over 25 points 9 times.  He has a career high of 39 points and poured in

So my question is would you rather a guy who scores 10 points every night, points you can count on every time out - who has no ability to score more than 10?  Or a guy who is inconsistent, yet has the skills to go for 30+ at any given time?

Seems that some of you would rather the underwhelming but consistent approach of player A. 

But I would take Player B all day and twice on Sunday.

MrKleen,

So, you think we should, hypothetically, compare a player whose numbers suggest he's an 11th or 12th man to a player whose numbers suggest he's a starter or maybe 6th or 7th at the worst?  Doesn't sound like a fair fight, to me.

How about this hypothetical:

BOTH Player A and Player B average 16.3ppg, 5.0rpg and they both play the same position.  The difference is that Player A's contributions will vary between 15-24ppg for most of his games, sometimes having games where he's down to 10-12 points and occasionally having games of 25 points with his average being 16.3ppg, while Player B's contributions will vary widely.  Sometimes he goes off for big numbers (hypothetically speaking of course, let's say 36 points on 2/5 and 39 points on 1/22) which really bring his average up, but will have a lot more games where he scores mid-low teens (oh, say, 13 points on 1/15, 12 points on 1/17, 12 points on 1/21 and 14 points on 1/28) and quite a few games in single digits (what the hell, let's just say for s--ts and giggles, 10, dating back to the beginning of the season where he didn't break double digits).  Let's also say that Player A's fg% is 48.7% and Player B's is average 42.2%.

Who would I like to have?  Well, both, I guess, but I'd start Player A and bring Player B off the bench.  I might bring him in early, to see if I'm getting the Trick Player B or the Treat Player B and then give him minutes depending upon who I'm seeing.  If it's Treat, then I'd play him 32, 35, 38 minutes.  When your showhorse is looking good, that's who you trot out.  If I'm getting Trick, then maybe only 20 minutes and I ride my workhorse the rest of the time because there can only be 5 players on the court at any time and I can't afford to have one playing starter minutes non-performing.

btw, Thaddeus Young is averaging 17.5ppg and 6.2rpg (not Green's 16.3 and 5.0), has been under double digits only 5x this year and has scored high 20s and 30 points half a dozen times this year in almost exactly the same number of mpg as Green (33.6 vs 33.5).  So, he hasn't scored 36 and 39, but he has had big games and he has more of them.  Also, he hasn't had as many bad games.  In other words, more consistent.  Also, Young's assist-to-turnover ratio is 1.9:2.0, while Green's is 1.6:2.0, so Young's is better and Young is averaging 2.1 steals per game while Green is averaging .6.  Young is averaging 2.1 offensive rebounds per game, while Green is averaging .7.  Where Green is leading Young is on ft% (77.4% vs 66.9%) and on 3ptfg% (33.8% vs 37.1%).



bob


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Well Bob...first off, Player A isnt an 11th or 12th man, he is one of your Starters (Brandon Bass)...so your first line is already off the rails

As for the comparison of Green (player B) with Thaddeus Young, you make many good points....but there are a number of factors at play here.

One is that Young is most often the PF - while Green is the SF.  This alone accounts for the increase in shooting % and Rebounds.  Green is more often far from the basket in the corner (he has taken 100 more 3 pointers than Young this season alone)

Second, Young gets 2  more shots per game than Green.  Green would easily make up for the difference in PPG with those 2 shots.

My bigger point is, was and will remain that Jeff Green has more upside than most players at his position in the NBA.  I understand that his inconsistency drives some people crazy, but the fact that he is capable of going for 39 (where Young is not), shows me why I want him on my team over Thaddeus.

Would I like Jeff to be more consistent, yes of course.  And I think he has the rest of the season with a healthy Rondo to prove his ability to even out some of his drastic spikes and dips. 

But not everyone is Paul Pierce, and maybe this is what Jeff Green is.  But also bear in mind that Pierce earns DOUBLE what Green does....so lets not buy a Ford and expect it to perform like a Mercedes.

mrkleen09 wrote:Well Bob...first off, Player A isnt an 11th or 12th man, he is one of your Starters (Brandon Bass)...so your first line is already off the rails

As for the comparison of Green (player B) with Thaddeus Young, you make many good points....but there are a number of factors at play here.

One is that Young is most often the PF - while Green is the SF.  This alone accounts for the increase in shooting % and Rebounds.  Green is more often far from the basket in the corner (he has taken 100 more 3 pointers than Young this season alone)

Second, Young gets 2  more shots per game than Green.  Green would easily make up for the difference in PPG with those 2 shots.

My bigger point is, was and will remain that Jeff Green has more upside than most players at his position in the NBA.  I understand that his inconsistency drives some people crazy, but the fact that he is capable of going for 39 (where Young is not), shows me why I want him on my team over Thaddeus.

Would I like Jeff to be more consistent, yes of course.  And I think he has the rest of the season with a healthy Rondo to prove his ability to even out some of his drastic spikes and dips. 

But not everyone is Paul Pierce, and maybe this is what Jeff Green is.  But also bear in mind that Pierce earns DOUBLE what Green does....so lets not buy a Ford and expect it to perform like a Mercedes.

MrKleen,


Fair enough.  I didn't realize you were using Bass as your Player A.  Of course, Bass plays PF and center on our center-deficient team and not SF, and he averages 27.8mpg vs 33.5mpg for Green and shoots 48.1% vs 42.2% for Green and 84.9%ft% vs 77.4% for Green, but I understand what you're saying.  Perhaps our expectations were unfairly set by the media and by the fact that Jeff Green himself said that he knows he's expected to be the "go-to" guy this year.

If you look at Bass and Green's production /36mpg, Green is averaging 17.5ppg on a projected 14.4fgas and Bass is 14.3ppg on 11.4fgas.  Give Bass 3 more fgas/36mpg @ 48% and his average comes up to 15.75ppg and that doesn't include any additional ftas he may pick up.

You're also right about the difference between Pierce's and Green's salaries.  Factor in the relative irrelevancy (now there's a tail-chasing phrase) of the salary differences between Bass and Green of $6.7M vs $8.7M and we're not talking about a Ford Mustang vs a Mercedes, we're talking about a Ford F-250 vs a Mercedes.  Different roles, different expectations, different compensations, different models.

But this is moot, since Bass and Green don't match up position and role-wise, even less so than Green and Young.  I have never seen Bass play SF offensively, ever, although I seem to remember him being assigned to guard Carmelo in the NY game instead of Green.  Bass isn't expected to be a key scorer, Green is.  Like Rondo isn't expected to drop 20 a game, neither is Bass.  Green?  Green's job is to score, Rondo's is to assist and Bass' is to do the unenviable job of being a key baseline and rim protector despite not really being tall enough for the job.

I'm not suggesting that Green should be traded any more than any other player on the team should be traded (not including Bogans.  Trade him for a mutt and then find the dog a good home and be done with him).  If we can improve by trading him, then trade him and if not then don't.  All I want is for him to do his job and, on this team, his job is to be the scorer.

If Danny gets somebody who lives to shoot and does it well, then the pressure on Green will ease up because he'll become the #2 scoring option on the team instead of #1. That would make the team better, Jeff Green happier and a few of us here too.


bob


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Totally agree Bob.  Thanks for all the work you put into your post here and everyday.  It is much appreciated and you are a big reason this site is so fun.  People come with reasoned arguments, rather than the typical - he sucks, trade him with nothing to back it up.

Looking forward to meeting in a few weeks at the game.

mrkleen09 wrote:Totally agree Bob.  Thanks for all the work you put into your post here and everyday.  It is much appreciated and you are a big reason this site is so fun.  People come with reasoned arguments, rather than the typical - he sucks, trade him with nothing to back it up.

Looking forward to meeting in a few weeks at the game.

MrKleen,

Thanks.

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to meeting you and the Missus. It's one of the things that makes this board different from every other board I am aware of. We treat each other like people, in part, because we meet each other in person and that turns us into people and not just some disconnected. concertina-wire-chewing lunatic who thinks they can say anything they want from behind the anonymity of the internet.

Although, some of us are pitbulls in real life too.


bob


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Misses wont be there this time Bob - but my Dad, Eugene will....so you will get to see where all the passion emanates from.

The other big difference is we all have a common cause out here...meaning no one joined this board to be a contrarian or to bash the Celtics for a living.  We are here united in our love of the team and the franchise.  So while we might disagree on how to get there, in the end - we all understand that each comment comes from a good heart.

When people post a "TRADE HIM" after a game, it is their frustration with the team they love losing that evokes that emotion - not a desire to piss people off (as might be the case on BDC)