Another reason to really dislike James

TJ,
Would you mind to provide source/link to polls/surveys of non-Celtics fans that say that Russell is "less" greater than Jordan or Jordan is greater that Russell?
Also, what is "recognized opinion"? Does it mean there's un-recognized opinion? Something like official vs unofficial?
Thanks,
AK

If your basing this on winning or championships is there really a comparison?

TJ,

One reason people take liberties in judging certain other people is because the other people make millions of dollars based on how much they impact the public.  In essence, they put themselves out there to be evaluated.  They cannot legislate the criteria—or the legitimacy of those criteria—on which the public evaluates them.

In case anyone's not aware, for many years (at least 25), the advertising industry has placed a lot of store on statistics called "Q Values."  A company conducts periodic surveys among various audiences (one such audience consists of sports fans) and, for each of many celebrities, produces a Q Score, which may be defined as "measurement and appeal of a brand, company, celebrity, or television show.)  Advertising spokespeople are often selected at least partly according to their Q scores.  There's money in being well-known; and inviting controversy is probably the most productive avenue. I'm certain that sports agents reference Q scores in negotiating players' salaries with teams.  I've personally seen it happen several times. On a number of occasions, I've even seen or heard celebrities (including sports figures) describe themselves as "brands."  If that's not a blatant admission of pandering to the public, I don't know what is.

Even on a hypothetical basis, the very concept of Celtics fans' expecting to have any input into what number Lebron should or should not wear is beyond ridiculous.  I'm sure no one on this board is demented enough even to imagine that s/he should have the right to such influence.

But Celtics fans, just like Celtics haters, have a right (within the bounds of propriety) (1) to judge and (2) even to be biased in judging any aspect of a celebrity who tacitly offers himself/herself as a vehicle for titillating the public and reaping considerable rewards accordingly.

Over the years, the Celtics—despite an amazingly high proportion of non-headline-non-showtime-hunters in its roster history, have arguably borne the brunt of more public criticism than any other NBA franchise.  Some of us think that's unwarranted.  Who cares what we think?  Tough for us!  We've taken our lumps longer than the majority of sports fans in this country have been alive.  We can bitch about it, but it's like spitting in the wind.  Once again, tough for us!

If (any member of) the Heat can't stand itself, it should get out of the public kitchen.

Sam

tjmakz wrote:

k_j_88 wrote:What did MJ do? Well, I think he motivated a lot of young kids to  want to play basketball, and I think his star power brought in more viewers, which inevitably spread to make the NBA more globalized. But I wouldn't say he made the game itself better, if that makes sense. It also brought on this culture of favoritism for some players over others because of perceived talent.

Anyway TJ, the problem here is Lebron's case of cognitive dissonance. He wants to honor Jordan's greatness by not wearing his number yet he switches to the number of a player that was even greater and did more for basketball in instilling what it means to possess a winning tradition and setting the benchmark for how success in the game is judged.


KJ

This is LeBron's choice.
Why should some Celtics fans dictate what number he should or should not wear?
Why can't we let people be who they want to be and stop judging?
It is your opinion that Russell was greater than Jordan. That is not a recognized opinion from most non-Celtics basketball fans.

This isn't about "Celtics" fans or any other team's fans. It's about James' ignorance. I think people here are simply going by what James has said and also his actions. He is a public figure and is going to face scrutiny. Don't like it? Don't play professional sports.

As far as Russell being greater, there is no challenge to him on that platform. Winning is what's considered a measure of absolute greatness, and no one has done it more than him. And not just winning championships, but being a major part of those championship runs. If other NBA fans can't recognize that, then clearly their opinions are not based in any reasonable rationale.



KJ

Tommy gets a dig in:

http://www.csnne.com/blog/celtics-talk/heinsohn-lebron-pebble-foot-mt-rushmore?p=ya5nbcs&ocid=yahoo

While Lejerk is roosting on Mount Tushmore hatching ego eggs, it's nice to note something of actual importance—the fact that the championship 1974 Celtics team is getting their due. I've always felt those they played in the extraordinarily huge shadows of the Celtics eras that preceded and followed them. There was no outstanding event (no famous stolen ball, no famous three-overtime game, no quotes about Moses Malone's dietary quirks) that defined the 1974 team. They just banded together and played basketball the way it should be played—fast and hard. They basically played an eight-man rotation: Havlicek, Nellie, Cowens, Silas, White, Chaney (all six of whom were double-digit scorers), Westphal and Kuberski.

In the best Celtics tradition, they were smart and extremely opportunistic. Havlicek, Cowens, Silas and Chaney made sure that a lot of the offense flowed from their rock-solid defense. They regularly outrebounded their opponents, as Cowens and Silas both boarded well into double figures. They weren't tall (the tallest guy, Henry Finkel) was not about to displace Cowens as the principal center on the team. But, inch for inch and pound by pound, they took a back seat to no other team of the time in terms of aggressiveness and energy.

To some fans, their exploits were anti-climactic because they had such a tough act to follow. And it wasn't until they beat Phoenix for the championship two years later that they came to be regarded as an actual era in Celtics history.

So, at the game tonight, I intend to look up at the 1974 banner and give it a silent but special salute.

Sam

Well said Sam, the 74 team played with a chip on their shoulder from losing the previous year due to Hondos injury when that team had the best record in team history. Years ago I stated even if Russell would have lost a few, say he won 8 instead of 11, it wouldn't take away any of his greatness....maybe it would have even given some of the other Celtic teams just a little added luck. Would have been great to see the Pierce-KG teams get one more, they were certainly the best team in that era IMHO and that 73 team should have won that year too. The Bird teams would have left Isaih and possibly MJ ringless if it weren't for Len Bias untimely and then Reggie Lewis, with those 2 Bird and McHale would have played healthier longer being able to coast more during season then get up for playoff runs.

Cow - Bird was already 36 1/2 when Reggie Lewis passed away and McHale was already 35 1/2. His death Summer of 1993 had nothing to do with their somewhat early retirement due to injuries. Bias yes, in my opinion, Lewis no.

And if Bias had played would we have been in a position to even draft Lewis?

beat

Would the C's have been able to draft Lewis if Bias hadn't died?  Well, there were 23 teams then and the Celtics grabbed Lewis with the 22nd pick in the first round.  So maybe they still would have.

But I'm glad to see that 1974 title team discussed.  That one was special to me because it was the first one I really saw since I was way too young for the Russell tyranny over the NBA.

Incredibly neither team was able to win more than one game on its home court and neither team won two in a row.  I can't think of any other final series where that happened.

The one individual play that I took away from that series was Cowens jump switching out on Oscar Robertson in game six preventing a pass to the rolling Jabbar, poking the ball away from the great Oscar and then diving on the floor and sliding about 20 feet on his belly after the loose ball to force a 24 second violation.

I was really happy to see that play included in the NBA finals pregame TV promo from a couple of years ago.  It absolutely exemplified Celtic pride and hustle.

That game six was one of the great playoff games.  Havlicek made some unreal shots, including a follow-up bank shot to tie it up in OT 2 that cleared Jabbar's fingertips by about a nano inch.  But Jabbar settled in when he dropped in a skyhook (what else?) from about 20 feet in the corner.

But to me, the one constant in that series was Don Chaney's defense on Oscar.  The C's, unlike almost all other teams, decided not top double team Jabbar since they believed that what killed you was multiple post ups where Jabbar had the option to shoot or hit cutters.  The key to limiting Jabbar's touches was to cut down on the time the Bucks had to run their halfcourt offense.

And the key to this was making Oscar work for every inch of the floor.  This Chaney did.  He was in Oscar's jockstrap on every possession full court for the entire game.

Don Chaney was one tough hombre.

No Chaney, no title #12.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Dave+Cowens+Oscar+Robertson+youtube&qpvt=Dave+Cowens+Oscar+Robertson+youtube&FORM=VDRE#view=detail&mid=97CD22AFA3A8C1587AF797CD22AFA3A8C1587AF7

Takes a while to load but it shows the plays I wrote about remembering.