Enough Is Enough: LeBron James Is No Larry Bird

beat wrote:

worcester wrote:And LeBron left with 4 minutes remaining in the 4th Q.

And San Antonio went on a 17-2 run to finish.

beat

31-9, more specifically. After Miami's surge early in the 4th.



KJ

k_j_88 wrote:

beat wrote:

worcester wrote:And LeBron left with 4 minutes remaining in the 4th Q.

And San Antonio went on a 17-2 run to finish.

beat

31-9, more specifically. After Miami's surge early in the 4th.



KJ

I was going from the time he left, not from earlier

beat

KJ when was there a 31-9 run?

From what point to what point cause in looking at the play by play I don't see it?

beat

http://www.nba.com/games/20140605/MIASAS/gameinfo.html

FOUND IT

Miami led 86-79 with 9 ½ minutes to go. But the Spurs finished the game by outscoring the Heat 31-9.

Sloopjohnb wrote:Game one.  No AC.  Court tempertures in the mid 90's.  Lebron leaves game in 3rd quarter with leg cramps and does not return as Spurs rally to win handily.

1984. Game five.  Boston Garden.  No AC in the greatest basketball gym in the world.  Temps in high 90's to low 100's due to freak early heat wave.  Bird drops triple double on LA and leads C's to decisive win that puts his team up 3-2.

When asked about the heat, Bird just shrugs and says, "That's what we do all summer in French Lick."

I'm not saying that Lebron isn't a tough player but I've never seen a player as physically or mentally tough as Larry Bird.

Did he ever play with leg cramps ?

Swish

And I'll add a different run - 26-9 Spurs from the time LeBron first went out with cramps.

7:31 - LeBron goes out, 86-84 Heat (26-9 run is from this point)
4:33 - he comes back in, 94-90 Spurs
4:09 - he drives for a layup
3:59 - he goes out again, 94-92

By the clock, he was in for 32 seconds, but it was only one 24-second possession. At 4:33, Miami had the ball after Danny Green's breakaway dunk, LeBron scored at 4:09 at the end of their 24-second possession, and although he was officially in the game for another 10 seconds, he was done after making the basket.

"Did he ever play with leg cramps ?"

Swish

My post was not so much a negative comment on Lebron's lack of toughness but on Bird's toughness.  Obviously Lebron James is one of the greatest players ever.

Did Bird ever play with leg cramps?  I don't know.  But I do know that he played the last three years of his career with a back so bad that he could not sit on the bench and had to go to the hospital and be put into traction after playing.  One of Bird's physical therapists compared it to having your fingers jammed in a door and someone trying real hard to shut the door.  He went through hell and played through it.

A lot of players would have retired.  Indeed, Bird himself has said that looking back on it he should have quit after his 9th year--his last healthy season.

I always considered Larry's toughest demonstration occurred during the 1991 Conference finals against Indy and Chuck Person, when Larry dove for a ball and his forehead smashed and bounced off the floor like a trampoline near the end of the first half.

I was sure he wouldn't return; and my fears seemed to be correct when he failed to come out for the second half. But he did return soon after and personally willed and shot the team to victory.

In this day and age, Larry would probably have been rushed to a hospital for all sorts of tests, and then all sorts of tests for concussion before being allowed to return—probably a few weeks later.

Following is an interesting summary of Larry's and Chuck's viewpoints of that game:

Sam

Boston won a tight Game 1 at home, 127-120, with Bird struggling to a 6 of 20 shooting night but nonetheless producing a 21-point, 12-rebound, 12-assist triple-double. Person scored 23 points with eight rebounds and seven assists. Then came the stunner, with the Pacers winning Game 2 in Boston Garden 130-118 as Person racked up 39 points, including a team playoff record of seven 3-pointers. With a chance to take control of the series at home, however, the Pacers dropped Game 3 in Market Square Arena, 112-105, as Person attempted just eight shots and scored six points. Facing elimination, the Pacers got big games from both Person (30 points) and Miller (27) to rally in the fourth quarter to win Game 4, 116-113. That set the stage for the deciding Game 5, on May 5, 1991 in Boston Garden.

Chuck Person: “I felt, obviously, going into a short series, anything could happen if we could go into their building and get a win – and maybe two. The most important thing was to go get one and we did. But we came back and laid an egg in Game 3 – particularly myself by having only six points and taking a limited amount of shots. But we had the big Game 4 and went back (to Boston) for Game 5. I thought we played well but, obviously, the dramatics with Larry going down and coming back and the Garden crowd never sitting down after that had a major impact in the outcome of the game. Larry pretty much dominated that series.”

Boston led by 10 after the first quarter, but the Pacers tied it at 58-all by halftime. Late in the second quarter, Bird crashed to the floor in pursuit of a loose ball and his head bounced hard off the fabled parquet. He stayed down for what seemed like an eternity to Boston fans before heading straight to the locker room. When he did not return with his teammates for the start of the third quarter, the drama began mounting about when – or if – he would re-enter the game.

Chuck Person: “As soon as he went down, we went into a timeout shortly after that and (Coach Bob Hill) said, ‘When the guy comes back, and the fans are going to get into it and Larry’s going to try to take over the game.’ He came back and missed his first couple of shots but then he got on a roll, got the fans and his teammates into it. They made a run but we kept our composure, came back and made a run at them.”

Larry Bird: “Going into the series, I was having a problem with my back and didn’t know if I was going to be able to play in all the games. In the last game, right before halftime, I took a spill and hit my head and went back to the locker room and really debated whether I should go on. The doctor told me I probably had a concussion and they didn’t think I should go out there with both the back and the damage I did to my brain – I rattled it a little bit.”

The Pacers took an 82-79 lead in the third period but when Bird came jogging through the tunnel, the Garden crowd erupted.

Chuck Person: (When Bird came through the tunnel) “I thought, ‘Well, here’s the second coming.’ He definitely played ungodly the rest of the way. For a guy who could’ve broken his neck or fractured a jaw or something, he really came out and performed at a level he’s accustomed to playing at.”

Larry Bird: “I kept hearing the crowd oohing and aahing, and I kept asking what the score was. I had this massive headache on the right side of my head but finally I decided, ‘This could be your last game ever, so you’d better get out there and give it all you can.’ ‘’

Though the Pacers had been prepared by Hill for what was coming, they didn’t handle it well. Boston outscored the visitors 33-14 to take a 112-96 lead before Indiana re-gathered itself for one last push. They cut the lead to 120-118 in the final seconds, setting up the game’s most memorable shot. Person initially posted up but Vern Fleming couldn’t get an angle for the entry pass, so Person popped to the 3-point line to take the ball. With Derek Smith and Bird both in his face, Person shot a 26-foot turnaround trey with 10 seconds left. Fleming was in perfect position in front of the rim to grab the rebound, but Parish jumped in and pushed the point guard under the rim, allowing Brian Shaw to get the ball. He was fouled and made both shots. Though Person tossed in a desperation 3-pointer from 35 feet out to cut it to 122-121, Shaw was fouled after the inbounds pass and made both free throws to finish the scoring. Bird, who had averaged 18.0 points on 36.9 percent shooting in the first four games, scored 32 and went 12-of-19 in the finale.

Chuck Person: “The play was for me. Reggie was supposed to curl, pop out and give it to me. I couldn’t quite get into position like I wanted and Reggie couldn’t get it. Vern had the ball, so I came out to get it. I knew if I popped out behind the 3-point line, I was going to take it. After I received the ball, I saw an opening. It probably was not such a good shot, but I took it. On tape, it looked like Vern was open and I probably should’ve gotten it to him. But I wanted to take the shot because I didn’t think we could go into overtime and beat these guys with the momentum they had and the energy we had wasted trying to catch up. (The shot) didn’t feel good but I knew I was shooting the ball well the entire series, especially in Boston, so I thought it had a chance to go in. But it didn’t.”

Larry Bird: “I thought they’d go for the tie. I thought they’d go down low to the big man and kick it out, try to get something off the drive. At that time we were older and what they did best against us was take us off the dribble and make plays. But what happened was they were having trouble getting the ball to Chuck in the post so he came out and got it. When he took the shot I was a little surprised. He had the 3-pointer, but he was more or less going away from the basket when he shot it. I always thought they would go inside-out, but they didn’t do that.”

Sam, that's the game that I've always thought demonstrated Bird's sheer grit and toughness. Besides being knocked unconscious he also had that perpetually aching lower back.

It does seem crazy now that he played. The real danger of concussions are now better understood.

Sloop,

I had forgotten about the back until I read this piece. He was one tough hombre.

Of all his antics on the court, the one that sticks out most in my mind was when they were playing the Lakers in L.A. Larry was taking the ball out of bounds at one end of the court; and for some reason, one of the Lakers started bothering him from behind. With no wasted motion, Larry just threw his butt backwards, deposited the guy into the second row, and threw the inbounds pass as though the guy had never existed. I believe the guy was Rambis, who never fared all that well in physical contests with Celtics forwards.

Sam

Sam

That was Michael Cooper who was actually doing a fairly good job of guarding Bird if I remember correctly

beat

That was game four in LA following a 30 point blow out by the Lakers in game three and only a Gerald Henderson steal and layup in game two separating Boston from an 0-3 deficit.

Bird called out the team as a bunch of "sissies" before the game and sending Cooper into the third row was just one way Bird showed how he wanted the team to play.

There was of course the infamous McHale take down of Rambis. That would have resulted in ejection and at least a one game suspension today.  There was also Bird and Jabbar standing face to face screaming at each other following a Jabbar elbow to Bird's chin.

Cooper did do a good job on Bird but Larry, though he shot a low percentage, still had 29 points, as he went to the line about a dozen times, and 21 rebounds, a decent number coming on the offensive boards, leading to many of his free throws.  He also drained the game winner in OT over Magic who had to switch on to Bird after Cooper fell down chasing him around a forest of screens.

At the time a lot of people said the Lakers were intimidated by all that Celtic physicality.

I didn't think that LA was intimidated so much as thrown off their game.  They retaliated but that seemed to distract them.  Down in the trenches hand to hand combat was not what they did.  James Worthy, in particular, seemed to lose just a little bit of the edge on his game the rest of the series, especially after he pushed Maxwell into the basket stand on a drive.

I'm glad others remembered that play and knew knew the Laker was Cooper.

On offense, I believe none of Larry's maneuvers could touch the one on which he rebounded a shot (I think it was his own shot) on the right baseline and, as he was falling out of bounds, switched the ball to his left hand and scooped it in from maybe seven feet away. I know the video of that one is floating around somewhere.

Sam

Yup, here are Larry's top 10 plays, and that one is #1. The forehead slam on the floor is in here too.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBcQ88XTxzY

Sam


Bill Simmons Ventures Into Interdimensional Vortex To Find Out If LeBron James Could Dominate In Different NBA Eras

Sports News • Sports • NBA Basketball • ISSUE 50•22 • Jun 5, 2014

THE MULTIVERSE—Aiming to settle the longstanding debate over LeBron James’ place within basketball history, Grantland editor-in-chief Bill Simmons reportedly stepped into an interdimensional vortex Thursday to determine if the Miami Heat star would have dominated in other NBA eras.

Reports confirmed the longtime ESPN columnist created various ripples in the fabric of space-time and opened the door to an infinite cascade of universes in which James matched up against the best players from each period of NBA history.

“We can already label LeBron as the best player of his generation—that debate is all but over—but the big question is whether he would have been the top guy during the way more physical, pre-hand-check-rule NBA,” said Simmons, who reportedly warped through a cluster of dark matter to watch James face off against the Chicago Bulls in the 1991 Eastern Conference Finals as a member of Chuck Daly’s Detroit Pistons. “He just wouldn’t get the calls back then that he gets in 2014.”

“That said, even with players literally getting clotheslined while driving to the basket, LeBron is big enough and strong enough to cope with the physicality of the ’90s,” continued Simmons, carefully watching as James received the ball from Isaiah Thomas and then darted through Scottie Pippen and Bill Cartwright for a heavily contested dunk. “But I still can’t see him winning more than two championships while the Bulls were at their peak. He’d win, but he wouldn’t have a dynasty.”

Pinning the four-time MVP against a variety of iconic players such as Bill Russell, Jerry West, and Larry Bird, Simmons reportedly vibrated his subatomic particles through a number of time streams and planes of reality, enabling the sports columnist to venture across any conceivable point within limitless parallel universes in order to appraise the theoretical scenarios in person.

“LeBron is, in a lot of ways, the most complete player we’ve ever seen, especially in terms of pure physical attributes and basketball IQ,” Simmons said as every molecule in his body gradually materialized in the mouth of a Lorentzian traversable wormhole that opened courtside at the Forum in 1985. “And based on how he’s holding his own against Kareem [Abdul-Jabbar], who’s arguably the toughest player to guard ever, there’s no doubt that he would have been a powerhouse during the Magic-Bird era of the ’80s.”

Sources indicated that Simmons then manipulated the universal wave function to enter an isolated pocket dimension where Oscar Robertson, his body retroactively strengthened by modern 21st-century training methods and diet regimens, narrowly lost to James in a one-on-one game held in an endless expanse of empty white space. However, while occupying a Hubble volume within the Level III multiverse hypothesized by Dr. Max Tegmark, the 44-year-old sports writer reportedly questioned whether James would have been as prolific a scorer in the 1960s after seeing the 1964 Boston Celtics beat the 2012 Miami Heat in a  1010,000,000-game series.

“No one is questioning his skills, but he just doesn’t have that killer instinct that Jordan had,” Simmons said as a team of five 28-year-old Michael Jordans defeated five 28-year-old LeBron Jameses—a discovery that led the Grantland editor-in-chief to conclude that the Jordans were “clearly playing in full-blown ‘Eff You’ mode.” “LeBron’s definitely in the conversation of best player ever, but MJ is still at the top of the pyramid.”

“At the end of the day, Jordan is the CT to LeBron’s Adam on The Challenge—there’s only going to be one winner in a head-to-head matchup,” added Simmons, the dissonant echoes of his voice repeating at various octaves in an infinite, crescendoing loop.

According to reports, Simmons continued to venture into increasingly divergent quantum branches, at one point watching James record two touchdowns and 131 yards as a wide receiver for the Cleveland Browns during a regular-season loss to the Pittsburgh Steelers.

Simmons reportedly went on to later—as well as earlier and simultaneously—travel at the speed of light along an arcwise-connected manifold and enter a timeline in which John F. Kennedy survived Lee Harvey Oswald’s 1963 assassination attempt and where a James-led Team USA subsequently won gold over the Soviet Union at the 2008 Summer Olympics in Baghdad.

“LeBron is obviously a Pantheon-level guy who would have been an All-Star in any decade,” said Simmons, his very being and consciousness spreading apart along a 26-dimensional space comprised of bosonic strings. “But the fact remains that he struggled to take ‘alpha dog’ status from Wilt Chamberlain when they played together on the San Francisco Warriors, and he was Robin to Jabari Parker’s Batman when the Milwaukee Bucks won their second straight championship in 2017.”

At press time, a satisfied Bill Simmons migrated into a gravitational vacuum linked to an alternate reality to view the season-nine premiere of the hit NBC show Friday Night Lights.

worcester wrote:
At press time, a satisfied Bill Simmons migrated into a gravitational vacuum linked to an alternate reality to view the season-nine premiere of the hit NBC show Friday Night Lights.

Alternate reality, indeed.

I just went to my electronic ouija board and discovered that the Russell Celtics would beat all teams of all time in a one game showdown. Moreover, every Celtics player would outscore the entire opposing team, which would go scoreless.

Simmons is sinking like the Wicked Witch of the North in terms of his credibility as a journalist, and he's on thin ice in terms of his humanity.

Sam

Simmons' being part of ESPN means he must have been swallowed up by a terrible case of group think. As a result, a great deal of what comes from his mouth should be regarded as unmitigated nonsense.


KJ

Simmons is quite the phenomenon - a fan who bs'd his way onto television on the basis of a big blogging mouth and tiny basketball acumen. I'm surprised he's not a politician, another profession with a similar skill set. At least there's one good thing to say about him - he's smart enough to be a Celtics fan.